Nationalism: a danger to the Orthodox Church [Archive]

Denys Kosovsky

06-04-2008, 06:45 PM

Hey Peter,

Why don't you look up the prophecies by the grace-filled Fathers? Or about Third Rome?

Nations do matter. Saint Serge was chosen to lead Russia to freedom and independence and he proclaimed his mission mysteriously by shouting whilst in his mother's womb during a church service. He later blessed the Russian Prince Saint Dmitry of Donsk to win the battle. He was aided by Moscow's Mitropolit Alexiy. Saint Serge became our patron saint. Does that remind you of Moses? The fact is many Orthodox people fought for survival and their faith like the Greeks, Serbians, Bulgarians and Ukrainians?Russians and Armenians, Georgians, against Turks and especially the Russians have fought against Knights, Swedes, Mongols, French, British, Italian, Romanian, Prussian, German, Nazi, Communist, America, Lithuanians, Poles, Greeks, Tatars, Chinese, Japanese, Finns, Turks, and so on forever. Basically, people do matter and Saints play an important role in the rise and fall, and prosperity of nations - i.e. St John of Kronstadt delayed 1st WW by several years, St Seraphim of Vyrytsa prayed 1000 days and nights for Russia during WW2, Lebanese Metropolitan Ilya was seen by Stalin about WW2 conclusion, and so on and so on. The chief power in war is the Mother of God. She also looks after nations. She adopted Russia following the martyrdom of Tsar Nicholas 2nd and his family. She Herself saw Russia through the two world wars - look up St Matrona's conversation with Stalin and Fatima's revelation.

Yes people matter, and so do nations. Saint John of Kronstadt says one should be 'proud' to be Russian, no wonder since it is infinitely better to be born within the true Church, tomorrow Russia will be the main force of the Christian world, yesterday it was Greece, before it was Israel. Nations matter a lot. Christian nations often have complex fates full of struggle and suffering, i.e. Serbia. With faith comes responsibility, that is persecution. The Fathers become monks but never cease to pray for their people and the world. You must have heard about the Seven on top of Mt Athos - they pray for the whole world! Specific saints can assume charge of whole peoples - i.e. Moses and the Jews and St Serge and Russia, and Godmother and Russia.

Saints are not separate from their people, in fact they are the holy blood of sacrifice that our God probably demands for the sake of the universal church and that people in particular. Martyrs are the lifeblood of the church, hence Russia is predicted a spiritual revival precisely because of all the martyrs who have paid for Russia's existence with tens of millions of lives.

That should be enough lol

Denys

Denys Kosovsky

06-04-2008, 06:47 PM

Hey Peter,

To say it shortly - nations are families and families are sacred within the Church. In fact families are small Churches inside the Universal Church.

Denys

John M.

07-04-2008, 09:02 AM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'John M.' is identical to members 'Rick James York' and 'Rostislav'. The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

Hey Peter,

To say it shortly - nations are families and families are sacred within the Church. In fact families are small Churches inside the Universal Church.

DenysConverts have sometimes been advised to adopt an ethnically Orthodox group of people for social life and general company. It is easier to be Orthodox and adopt the Orthodox way as a normal routine if you have the influence of lifetime Orthodox members.

I found it easier to fast in my first year of practicing Orthodoxy because I befriended English speaking Russians in my parish. One married friend brought me to his parent's home during great lent and his mother served a beautiful variety of Russian lenten food for Sunday lunch. It was much better than some of my convert friends prepared on Sundays, like instant boiled noodles only, every weekend.

Singing the Lord's prayer (when they did it in English for the benefit of non Russians) before lunch or dinner was so natural that I adapted to it very quickly. Also, the ethnically Orthodox can answer a lot of basic questions we have when freshly converted without having to wait in line and ask a priest.

John

Effie Ganatsios

07-04-2008, 09:11 AM

I heard one year something like this: "No I dont agree. I think greeks are born orthodox. They almost get the religion with the mothers milk" (!)

I ve also heard that the biggest danger to a "system" comes from inside. I think this is true to the Orhodox Church as well. And a danger to the earthly Orthodox Church is nationalism. (When I was younger, I sometimes thought that greeks, russians, serbs and other people from "orthodox countries", were more "orthodox" than others.)

It seems that a reason is that when people know they have the truth in their belief, as orthodox do,(I do), a danger can follow of being proud of it on a wrong basis,and that is shown in individuals (to people in non-orthodox and orthodox countries), and also can result in a negative nationalism. I think that is a big problem in the Orthodox Church today, maybe the biggest. (I'm not the first to say that).

Are there writings from the fathers on this issue? Maybe in writings on The Sunday of Orthodoxy? Nationalism is not a modern problem. Or is it? Today it is the biggest in our church.

Peter

Peter, it is sometimes harder for those born into Orthodoxy to be Orthodox. There comes a time in our lives when we begin to question our beliefs and it is then that we either accept Orthodoxy or discard it. I believe that God leads us to where we belong, whether we have converted to Orthodoxy or whether at a certain stage in our lives we accept that we are Orthodox and continue from there.

What we have inherited "with our mother's milk" is the feeling of belonging, the beautiful memories of being young and feeling that the church was our home. You have only to attend church on Sunday morning, to see all the young children dressed in their best Sunday clothes, not sitting quietly but getting up and finding other children and connecting with them, then going with their mothers to receive Communion, you will also see young mothers with their babies in their arms, lining up, waiting for communion, and the babies opening their mouths to receive it. Last Sunday there were lines of young children waiting for communion (their teachers had asked all children who wanted to receive Communion to meet at the church on Sunday morning). These memories linger and when a period of doubt results in closing the door on Orthodoxy, these golden memories sometimes serve as a key to opening that door again.

We are all individuals and each should seek his own path to God. Whether convert, or born to Orthodoxy, we are all the same and each one of us has his own cross to bear.

Effie

Andreas Moran

07-04-2008, 10:00 AM

I take nationalism in this context to mean attachment to a country because its history, culture and character have been shaped by Orthodoxy. This can mean favouring the interests of that country because of its Orthodoxy. This can be a good thing: the strong Greek character and its nationalism was why the Greeks said, in the mid-15th century, 'better the sultan's turban than the pope's tiara', and it was why Orthodoxy survived the Turkish occupation of Greece for 400 years. The dogged persistence and huge capacity for suffering of the Russians likewise enabled Orthodoxy to survive the 70-year 'Babylonian captivity' of 20th century Russia as well as its struggles in earlier history to which Denys refers.

We are all individuals and each should seek his own path to God.

This is true at one level but we should also remember that we are the Body of Christ and so an interdependent community. The Orthodox population of a country such as Greece or Russia forms a large part of the One Body and exists in circumstances favourable to Orthodoxy. The danger then is that Orthodoxy can be taken for granted; that's why the clarion call of threat and persecution may sometimes be necessary.

Nationalism or ethnicity can be a problem, particularly in diaspora, if it tends to exclusiveness. On the other hand, since Orthodoxy is a way of life - The Way - it seems reasonable that Orthodox converts may draw from nations which have developed that way of life certain customs such as what to eat in Lent, provided those customs are referrerable to Orthodoxy.

We are Orthodox Christians first and Greeks, Russians, English, Americans, Australians and Canadians second. But I think we have a duty to have regard to Orthodox nations. We cannot disregard harm and threat to them, and if the various prophecies are right, then Denys is correct that Russia has a central role to play in the triumph of Christ and His Holy Orthodox Church over the enemy (materialism, relativism, anti-Christian feeling, and, ultimately, Antichrist).

look up St Matrona's conversation with Stalin

Denys - I've seen an icon of St Matrona which includes Stalin seeing her but no one can tell me the story behind this. Can you say about it or direct me to a website that tells it?

Helen M.

07-04-2008, 01:03 PM

I take nationalism in this context to mean attachment to a country because its history, culture and character have been shaped by Orthodoxy.
Yes I have heard this from theologically educated Orthodox people before. It is interesting to note that Orthodoxy leaves it's mark differently on different Orthodox nations. I have been told this is because just as individual persons have different personalities and characters, so do citizens of countries.

They have a collective personality like Greeks are so philosophical that nearly every cab driver will gladly talk philosophy with you in his cab. Russians are open-souled. Serbians are always ready to die for their faith. Georgians too.

If you take away their Orthodox faith, the character changes for the worse. But the faith brings out the best in the practicing Orthodox Christians, whatever their ethnic background. We have for a guide the Holy scripture in (Gal. 3:28).

Sincerely Helen

Owen Jones

07-04-2008, 02:54 PM

There is a difference between nations and nationalism. There is no question that modern nationalism was a development explicitly designed to counter the power of the Church (at least the Latin Church). And not just the political power but the spiritual power. This is most explicit in the case of modern France, but it is also true for Britain and the U.S., it is part and parcel of the unification efforts in modern Germany and Italy that took place in the 19th Century. The United States of Europe is an attempt to blunt nationalism which is blamed for two world wars that started in Europe. Both the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch are trying to grapple with this development, maybe even take advantage of it, with little success. The idea of a super-state that would blunt the damaging impact of aggressive nation-states is still predicated on the same spiritual impetus behind the modern state. The same with "globalization." Because the experience of being a citizen of a nation-state has become too puny. One is now supposed to be a citizen of a planetary community as well. Which is inevitably too small as well, which is why we must explore outer space.

There will always be a tension between nations and the Church, just as there is a tension between the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of man. But it is a tension, not an absolute distinction. The Church is still trying to find its way in the so-called modern world and has yet to find a place. So many if not most Christians think of themselves as citizens of a nation, and as subjects of God's kingdom at the same time, but the latter seems to me, for the most part, to be a contingent condition. So we seem to be in some kind of interregnum, wherein the spiritual power of the modern state is waning, but in this spiritual vacuum the Church has little or nothing to say or to offer. Meanwhile, a certain faction rages against "globalization" because they are spiritually alienated and unhappy but they would never consider the Church as an alternative. Activism is the rallying cry. And being part of some activist coalition provides some existential satisfaction, some identity.

The desire to belong to something that is tangible strikes me more as a weakness and a deformation of the Gospel principle of participation in the Kingdom of God. So being an American, or a member of rotary, or AHEPA, or a political party, or an activist faction, is on a part with being a member of an Orthodox Church somewhere. Because all of them provide some feeling of belonging to something that involves getting power.

But there is a kind of existential loneliness if you will at the core of Christianity. There is power in having no power. Christ was virtually alone and abandoned on the cross, and this is our cross as well. As a Christian, I should embrace this loneliness as a gift and as an asset, not as a burden and a curse. And I should love those who hate me, persecute me and revile me, rather than issue forth petty criticisms. That's true power.

Peter S.

08-04-2008, 12:36 AM

Hey Peter,

To say it shortly - nations are families and families are sacred within the Church. In fact families are small Churches inside the Universal Church.

Denys

Hi Denys.

There are no nations in heaven. There are familybonds but no separate families. "They are like angels" in heaven. No borders. No splitting.(The devil splits). St John of Kronstadt and St. Paul are God's children, and citizens of heaven, they are not at all russians or palestine roman citizens there. Why should they? That is what the universal Church is ment to be, but it isnt so. We need to protect our values and borders become nescesarry, and national churches as a result. But it is not the ideal way. A universal/ecumenical church is the ideal, but it is maybe not possible and realistic in this world.

You say that Russia now has the position as Greece had speaking of the Church, and the greeks got it from the apostles. There you see: The russian Church is the greek Church and the greek Church is the Church of the apostles and Jesus. The russian Church is the church of the apostles. St. Vladimir was a mediator, and was happy to be that. This should be easy to comprehend but unfortunatley it isnt so.

BTW: I searched on the topic nationalism here at monachos and the threads "patriotism" and "nationalism" were quite short.

Peter

Peter S.

08-04-2008, 12:49 AM

What we have inherited "with our mother's milk" is the feeling of belonging, the beautiful memories of being young and feeling that the church was our home.

Dear Effie

The lady I spoke about ment it literally...I ve also heard that Jesus was born in Russia... It is a proof of the stupidity nationalism can lead to.

Peter

Herman Blaydoe

08-04-2008, 03:46 PM

In 1872, the Council of Constantinople stated "We have concluded that when the principle of ethno-racism (i.e. phyletism) is juxtaposed with the teaching of the Gospel and the constant practice of the Church, it is not only foreign to it, but also completely opposed, to it. We decree the following in the Holy Spirit:

1. We reject and condemn racial division, that is, racial differences, national quarrels and disagreements in the Church of Christ, as being contrary to the teaching of the Gospel and the holy canons of our blessed fathers, on which the holy Church is established and which adorn human society and lead it to Divine piety.

2. In accordance with the holy canons, we proclaim that those who accept such division according to races and who dare to base on it hitherto unheard-of racial assemblies are foreign to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and are real schismatics."

Andreas Moran

08-04-2008, 04:45 PM

I wonder if this translation is accurate?

We reject and condemn racial division, that is, racial differences

Racial divisions and differences are a fact of nature and so not apt to be rejected or condemned.
Divisiveness and discrimination based on race may have been meant but that is not what is said. It is a basic rule of construction that we look to see what is meant by what the writer has said - not what the writer might have meant to say.

Denys Kosovsky

08-04-2008, 06:38 PM

Hi Denys.

There are no nations in heaven. There are familybonds but no separate families. "They are like angels" in heaven. No borders. No splitting.(The devil splits). St John of Kronstadt and St. Paul are God's children, and citizens of heaven, they are not at all russians or palestine roman citizens there. Why should they? That is what the universal Church is ment to be, but it isnt so. We need to protect our values and borders become nescesarry, and national churches as a result. But it is not the ideal way. A universal/ecumenical church is the ideal, but it is maybe not possible and realistic in this world.

You say that Russia now has the position as Greece had speaking of the Church, and the greeks got it from the apostles. There you see: The russian Church is the greek Church and the greek Church is the Church of the apostles and Jesus. The russian Church is the church of the apostles. St. Vladimir was a mediator, and was happy to be that. This should be easy to comprehend but unfortunatley it isnt so.

BTW: I searched on the topic nationalism here at monachos and the threads "patriotism" and "nationalism" were quite short.

Hope this was helpful

Peter

Denys Kosovsky

08-04-2008, 06:48 PM

Denys - I've seen an icon of St Matrona which includes Stalin seeing her but no one can tell me the story behind this. Can you say about it or direct me to a website that tells it?

Hey Andreas,

I believe the story is quite short. A fruitseller advised Stalin to see Matrona. Stalin was on the verge of defeat, the Nazis were outside Moscow, but Stalin was educated in an orthodox seminary so he knew what this meant. She said approx that Russia will win and he will be the only politician not to flee from Moscow.

Check the life of St Matrona.

Denys

Denys Kosovsky

08-04-2008, 07:20 PM

Dear Effie

The lady I spoke about ment it literally...I ve also heard that Jesus was born in Russia... It is a proof of the stupidity nationalism can lead to.

Peter

Here is a quote of St Seraphim of Sarov,

"Jews and Slavs are the two people of the fates of God, the vessels and the witnesses of Him, the arcs indestructible; and all other people are saliva, which the Lord spits out of His Mouth"

In case you question his credibility, the Mother of God visited him in person in front of a witness, he also said that before he spoke without the Spirit, he made mistakes, sometimes big ones, sometimes small ones. Clearly, that was before.

!!! St Seraphim also says that the antichrist will be Russian. This is not something to boast about.

This is not boasting. We are just clarifying the issue here. Peoples matter.

With such INCREDIBLY great favor comes great responsibility, if you think that the Russian people have suffered wait for what is yet to come. According to prophecies, WW3 will last ten years, be fought not for conquest but for destruction, 14 year-olds will be called to war, and 1/3 of people on earth will be killed. This war will be fought between USA, Europe and China over Russia.

This is not to exclude others. Russia will subsume countries like Ukraine, Belarus, be joined by Greece and Georgia, Armenia. Hopefully all the Slav people will unite.

After Russia will have to preach the Gospel for the last time. Those of us, Orthodox, who are in the West, will play a key part in that. Also Seraphim of Vyrytsa warns the Americans and the English that that will be the time to flee to Russia for shelter, because countries like America will not be able to withstand the war, followed by the coming Antichrist. This is all to come soon, because when St John of Kronstadt warned people no one could have imagined what was to follow, I would imagine we are in a similar situation today.

America has a special place in all of this. But as Seraphim of V. said the signs are America will not cope, Russia couldn't and we have like fifty million Christians for every Saint in America. It would be strange if America somehow coped. Those who live there now are in difficult situation. Families should flee. Wannabe-martyrs should stay. I would imagine Elder Epharim's 17 monasteries will be the forefront of the Gospel. But since US is associated with Babylon, punishment is the theme for the future.

Denys

Peter S.

08-04-2008, 11:31 PM

You say that Russia now has the position as Greece had speaking of the Church, and the greeks got it from the apostles. There you see: The russian Church is the greek Church and the greek Church is the Church of the apostles and Jesus. The russian Church is the church of the apostles. St. Vladimir was a mediator, and was happy to be that. This should be easy to comprehend but unfortunatley it isnt so.

BTW: I searched on the topic nationalism here at monachos and the threads "patriotism" and "nationalism" were quite short.

Hope this was helpful

Peter

Hi Denys.

What was helpful? Every (national) orthodox Church is the Church of the apostles. And the orthodox churhes in the western countries are also apostolic. The point is the oneness. The Church should act as is there were no borders and differences. To say it in another way: 1) We are all humans, 2) and the baptism in every orthodox Church is the same.

Peter

Peter S.

08-04-2008, 11:43 PM

With such INCREDIBLY great favor comes great responsibility, if you think that the Russian people have suffered wait for what is yet to come. According to prophecies, WW3 will last ten years, be fought not for conquest but for destruction, 14 year-olds will be called to war, and 1/3 of people on earth will be killed. This war will be fought between USA, Europe and China over Russia.

Denys

Which saint prophecied this? If it is true it will be orthodox people who suffer outside Russia. Humans matters for God, and the Church matters. The country of Russia is not the same as the Church. God has no favourite people. This should be easy to comprehend.

Peter

Peter S.

09-04-2008, 12:55 AM

"Jews and Slavs are the two people of the fates of God, the vessels and the witnesses of Him, the arcs indestructible; and all other people are saliva, which the Lord spits out of His Mouth"St. Seraphim here speaks of the values of a people such as that "God became man to save the world" opposed to a (western?)"globalization-value" that goes something like this: "Every religion is the same". That is what God spits out. He didnt speak of nations as countries. Nationalists mix values and countries and doesnt get this point.

!!! St Seraphim also says that the antichrist will be Russian. This is not something to boast about.Speculation: Maybe this antichrist will say that the russian state is the same as the apostolic Church??

Peter

Olga

09-04-2008, 06:08 AM

Denys Kosovsky

09-04-2008, 02:02 PM

St. Seraphim here speaks of the values of a people such as that "God became man to save the world" opposed to a (western?)"globalization-value" that goes something like this: "Every religion is the same". That is what God spits out. He didnt speak of nations as countries. Nationalists mix values and countries and doesnt get this point.

Speculation: Maybe this antichrist will say that the russian state is the same as the apostolic Church??

Peter

Dear Peter,

That was not an opinion. It was the Word of God and a prophecy. This is not to big up the Russians. It is to say that people matter. Because all men are innately one and the same - we are united through our sin and the grace we have, hence particular people form incredibly strong bonds among themselves. They are, in effect family.

Now the things I said are a bit pompous, but if the Greeks were the example there would also be a lot to say, I just don't know enough about Greece and Greek prophecies. Serbians have prophecies too about their people. I would imagine so does every Orthodox people.

I was not exulting one particular people. In America things are different. There are many people of many backgrounds. This demands a different approach from the rest of the world. Nationalism may play a insignificant role in the US. So Americans may not be aware of it so much.

My point has nothing whatsoever to do with politics. Nothing. I am saying that spiritually people are connected to their immediate family - their people also. This is really quite clear from many instances. After all the Jews were the only people God had for so much of mankind's history. This is quite nationalist.

Now I believe that Christians in America are unique. It is much harder to arrive to Christianity (real C) in America where there is so much religious confusion. God is said to lead us along by what concerns us the most to faith in Him. American Orthodox converts have traveled a great journey and have been tested far greater than most Greeks and Russians. When we distinguish between people however, we do not say what is worse or better, God simply chooses what is right for everyone and that happens. God decides if Orthodox faith prospers or withers in people.

Americans will play a crucial role in future fates of Christianity. Eastern Orthodox don't really know about why Christianity is the only true faith, they just accept that. But American Orthodox have seen it all in terms of 'religions' and they will hold on to the true faith because they actually know this and have found this out the hard way. I always say that Orthodox Christians play an important role in whatever society they are. It says in the Bible that a certain amount of the righteous is needed if a people is not to be destroyed by God. if the Orthodox presence in the US was not there...

With respect Denys

Denys Kosovsky

09-04-2008, 02:06 PM

Just to throw a spanner in the works: There is another school of thought which says the Antichrist will be Jewish. Does it matter whether he'll be Jewish, Russian, or any other "nationality"? Of course not.

It does matter. The Antichrist will have Jewish descent, certainly and according to St Seraphim he will be Russian. These things have deeper meanings always. But to make things clearer imagine a supernova explosion in Russia - it would hurt.

Olga

09-04-2008, 11:45 PM

But to make things clearer imagine a supernova explosion in Russia - it would hurt.

My friend, a supernova explosion anywhere in the world would hurt. Think about it.

Effie Ganatsios

11-04-2008, 08:57 AM

Americans will play a crucial role in future fates of Christianity. Eastern Orthodox don't really know about why Christianity is the only true faith, they just accept that. But American Orthodox have seen it all in terms of 'religions' and they will hold on to the true faith because they actually know this and have found this out the hard way. I always say that Orthodox Christians play an important role in whatever society they are. It says in the Bible that a certain amount of the righteous is needed if a people is not to be destroyed by God. if the Orthodox presence in the US was not there...

With respect Denys
American Orthodox will hold onto the real faith because they have seen it all.... etc.

Eastern Orthodox don't really know about why their faith is the only true faith, they just accept this???

Denys, I respect you as a member of this forum and as an Orthodox Christian but please read a little of the history of Greece before you make statements such as the above. We do not know why our faith is the only true faith and just accept it? We suffered 400 years of occupation by an Islamic country - the Ottoman Empire which I presume you do know about - we kept our faith, we kept our language and we kept our national pride. Does this suggest nothing to you?

The Russians suffered greatly under the Communist regime - surely you have read about some of the things these "Eastern Orthodox" suffered for their faith? And yet, they too, came through these years with their faith intact.

Yes, some converts have gone through stages where they
"tested" various religions, christian, buddhist, etc. etc. etc.
What does this say about them? I would hope that it would say that this makes them seekers of the truth and not reeds that sway with every breeze. I myself have read extensively about other religions and find some good things in most of them, as I am sure has been the experience of many other Orthodox who are not converts. Just people who need to investigate and who like reading and who might be considered intelligent and not sheep. But all this reading and investigating did not make me decide to change my religion because I know its worth.

Having said all of the above, I should also say that I, personally, am convinced that the Orthodox in countries such as America, Australia, England (although England is not quite in the same category having a long history of Orthodoxy), - countries in which people are converting to Orthodoxy - will contribute greatly to Orthodoxy in general.

I have not really concerned myself with prophesies of what will happen in the future - there seem to be quite a few theories - but one thing I am becoming sure of is that the motives will be political, or more precisely the beginning of the end will be for political reasons. At least that is what it will seem like on the surface. Power and greed - the devil's enticements.

Effie

Ignorance of history leads to the same mistakes being made over and over. The sad part is that those who initiate wars do not fight in the forefront anymore. They leave the dying to those who have no choice in the matter.

Effie Ganatsios

11-04-2008, 09:21 AM

Dear Effie

The lady I spoke about ment it literally...I ve also heard that Jesus was born in Russia... It is a proof of the stupidity nationalism can lead to.

Peter

Peter, there is a great deal of wisdom behind what we were taught by our mothers : it's not a good idea to discuss politics, money or religion.

People will say all sorts of things and it's sometimes hard to know whether an appropriate response would be to laugh or to cry.

Effie

Peter S.

11-04-2008, 08:18 PM

Hi Denys.

That was not an opinion. It was the Word of God and a prophecy. This is not to big up the Russians. It is to say that people matter. Because all men are innately one and the same - we are united through our sin and the grace we have, hence particular people form incredibly strong bonds among themselves. They are, in effect family.
The strong bonds that first of all matters to God is that we are united because of we are created in His image, and that we are united in baptism. We are one great orthodox family. We are not united through our sin but separated in our sin.

I was not exulting one particular people. In America things are different. There are many people of many backgrounds. This demands a different approach from the rest of the world. Nationalism may play a insignificant role in the US. So Americans may not be aware of it so much.I think it is nationalism in the US, but maybe it is a different type than in Europe? I have seen american nationalism. In the western countries in Europe people also have different backgrounds. I myself am an orthodox in a lutheran country.

My point has nothing whatsoever to do with politics. Nothing. I am saying that spiritually people are connected to their immediate family - their people also. This is really quite clear from many instances. After all the Jews were the only people God had for so much of mankind's history. This is quite nationalist.Now it is our baptism that matters to God, not longer our nationality. Still it was also the faith of Abraham that was important in the Jews relation to God.

Peter

Peter S.

11-04-2008, 08:33 PM

Peter, there is a great deal of wisdom behind what we were taught by our mothers : it's not a good idea to discuss politics, money or religion.

I agree Effie, but sometimes we have to, because nationalism can be a dangerous ideology that destroys the unity of the Church.

In 1872, the Council of Constantinople stated "We have concluded that when the principle of ethno-racism (i.e. phyletism) is juxtaposed with the teaching of the Gospel and the constant practice of the Church, it is not only foreign to it, but also completely opposed, to it. We decree the following in the Holy Spirit:

1. We reject and condemn racial division, that is, racial differences, national quarrels and disagreements in the Church of Christ, as being contrary to the teaching of the Gospel and the holy canons of our blessed fathers, on which the holy Church is established and which adorn human society and lead it to Divine piety.

2. In accordance with the holy canons, we proclaim that those who accept such division according to races and who dare to base on it hitherto unheard-of racial assemblies are foreign to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and are real schismatics."

Maybe people matters to God, ie. they are not the same, but no people has any priority. We are all created in His image.

Peter

Effie Ganatsios

12-04-2008, 07:30 AM

The great thing about Christianity in general and Orthodoxy in particular is that we are all equal in the eyes of God.

Equal to choose how to live, equal in that we are all subject to temptation, equal in our desire to come closer to God.

The soul has no colour, no economic status, no ethnic characteristics. What it has is the ability to distinguish right from wrong.

God sees into our hearts. Some are nearly pure, some are nearly evil. We are equal but we are free to choose and unfortunately some of us choose the wide and easy path that leads nowhere at all, at least nowhere near God.

Effie Ganatsios

12-04-2008, 07:53 AM

Perhaps each of us interprets the word "nationalism" differently.

Nationalism can be a good thing when it means resistance to evil and injustice, when it means defending your country against aggressors and against those who would destroy your religion.

First God, then your family, and then your country when it is defending itself. If we all said, OK, these people want to invade my country, they want to destroy everything I hold precious, but that's OK, what would this say about us? Perhaps we might also say : I won't resist because I am a good Christian. I always think of the anger of Christ when he saw how the Temple was being defiled. He didn't meekly say, OK, you go ahead and defile it. He roared and He overturned the tables and He defended His Father's House.

People in many countries have defended their faith, have died for their faith. Some have died meekly, some have died fighting. One of our Independence war heroes was roasted on a spit over a fire by the Turkish Muslims. He didn't die meekly. He died screaming, but he died after fighting courageously for his religion and his country. Where is our faith today? Are we all to become pale little images of yesterday's heroic men because that is the way this "brave new world", this " globilized" society wants us? A sheep is easier to control than a bull.

Years ago a very, very high level American politician made a speech and said that "the Greeks were anarchic and difficult to tame and that for this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots."

Apparently Greece and the Greeks had to be destroyed because they were not the kind to meekly bow their heads and submit to orders. One of the things he said had to be destroyed/attacked was our religion. He later denied that he had made this speech but trusted and responsible people have reported that they heard it on the radio. I believe it because nothing else would explain what has been happening in the last 30 years or so. Everything - our language, our religion, our traditions, but especially our history, are continuously being attacked and ridiculed. This is the proof, in my opinion, that this speech was indeed made by this person.

Religion and nationalism are very tightly interwoven here.

I cannot be made to believe that this is a bad thing.

Nationalism taken to extremes, of course, is to be abhorred, but, as our ancient philosophers were fond of saying - moderation in all things.

Effie

Alex Michael Rusanen

12-04-2008, 02:07 PM

Denys Kosovsky

12-04-2008, 02:30 PM

American Orthodox will hold onto the real faith because they have seen it all.... etc.

Eastern Orthodox don't really know about why their faith is the only true faith, they just accept this???

Dear Effie,

I admit that I am not an expert on history, but I am going to Greece in the summer and I'm looking to learn more about it.

Now I have only set about on this thread, only, to prove that peoples matter spiritually, that we are related, spiritually as well as otherwise, to the members of the same people. However, at no stage did I argue for favoritism or for nationalism over christening. That would be quite foolish of me. Please stop attacking me for quotes I made, I am not trying to say that the nations are the be all and end all. Christening is the key to heaven. There. This is not just you Effie it's a lot of other people sorry.

If anyone by now thinks that peoples do not matter spiritually please go back to what I said. Imagine when 20 million people are dying of famine, they did not die because of their individual sins only did they? They died because this sort of bad thing was happening to the whole nation.

I am saying peoples exist on a spiritual level. This is crucially important. I am not saying this is to overlook individualism or everything else. Please let me make this one very short point that peoples play a role in the spiritual world. Thank you.

Now, Effie, I'm sorry again that I had to clarify that. Now to your question. I meant no disrespect to anyone. I am saying that citizens of the post-USSR block and maybe Greece have been cushioned from the sort of assault on Christianity that goes on in the rest of the world. At least on paper most citizens in those countries are Orthodox and before the fall of the USSR there was very little in a way of cults sects heresies other religions etc. That is clearly the will of God as He seems to be preserving a unified identity amongst those people. Now even these countries have come in contact with heresy of all sorts from within and from abroad. That is what I was saying. Many people in Russia I know for a fact don't know anything about any religions except Christianity.

On the contrary, Americans grow up in a country where the Orthodox are such a small minority. Where cults and sects and heresies and so on remind us of S Rose's religion of the future. Clearly this is quite a test. In that respect.

For example, S Rose had to search for Orthodoxy, he was not born in and Orthodox family, as he would have been had he been born in say Eastern Ukraine. Clearly S Rose knew more about heresies and other religions that the average Russian. This is my point.

It's a generalization and I understand that there are probably tens of millions of cases where this is not the case.

Denys Kosovsky

12-04-2008, 03:06 PM

I think one of the greatest mistakes of extreme nationalism is the justification of murder. Whether you killed tatars, turks, or any other enemies of the Christian faith, whether you did it to protect your country or the christian faith, you are a murderer and have commited murder. It is understandable, not acceptable. Soliders should not be held in high esteem by the church but punished as murderers even though they killed for Country or Faith.R

By the way, many of mhy finnish ancestors from my mothers side fought against russia when it invaded Finland. I don't try to justify their killing even though they did it for their country and the christian faith.

Dear Alex,

I would not in any way wish to offend anyone. I only said that wars were fought, I did not make a sweeping generalization about any aspect of these wars. Finland was caught in between two monsters, Nazis and Communists and it got hurt. Before, I am sorry but I believe you were part of the Russian Empire. Even before, I believe Finland fell prey to one of the bigger nations of the European stage (Russia) when those nations contended for the whole of Europe. I did not say anything about who was right and who was wrong because frankly I am not God, how would I know?

I was not even talking about wars and nations when I started out Alex. Please let me make that point again - based on the writings of the Fathers I said that peoples, all peoples, play a role in the spiritual world. I said it matters, spiritually, what you people belong to. That's all. It's just a small point. Yes Christening matters, and yes there is brotherhood of nations, the universal church, and nationalism cannot overshadow the Church life.

Here are the two things I said - in heaven we will be judged together with our people, our sins are passed on to our descendants, our fate in life is decided on the scale of nations (sometimes).

That is about everyone, and it does not insult anyone. Please understand that.

Now about soldiers. Christianity sees all killing to be sin. Yes. But when soldiers came to see Christ He said basically, be fair, to them. He did not tell them that soldiers are not needed. One famous Archbishop was speaking online to a student in Oxford, and the student said you cannot be Christian because you are not pacifist, and Archbishop said what if your girl was being assaulted? and student said I would talk to them, but that is all I could do. The Archbishop said - if I were your girlfriend I would find myself another boyfriend.

Also, many warriors have become martyrs of God. In Greece there was a whole legion who were martyred by the Emperor and they became a legion of saints. Prince Dmitry of Russia had to fight a battle and he was blessed by Russia's patron saint Serge to win the battle. Saint Elijah of Muromsk was a disabled man who spent 35 years in bed, two monks came to him and ordered him to get up and fight for his nation. He got up and he was healed. He was invincible in battle. Before death he became a monk. Prince David of the Old Testament was a warrior and fought as champion against Goliath. The Mother of God Herself fought in battles when She scared away the armies of Rus from taking Constantinople, in Greece, and when She scared away the Mongols in Russia, and when She appeared and routed the Nazis outside Moscow. There are many other instances. Prince Alexander Nevsky was a rare person - he was the most gifted, intelligent, beautiful, strong, brave, virtuous man of his time and he was a great saint and he was a victorious general. Saint Vladimir, who is Equal to the Apostles converted Rus with fire and sword. The martyr Nicholas 2nd fought in WW1. And Saint George fought a great serpent. And what about Gideon, the legendary Old Testament general? And what about Archangel Michael who will defeat Satan and his angels? And what about Christ who will slay the Antichrist with his mouth? And what about the prophet Elijah who killed four man with a prayer and four hundred with a knife?

Soldiers are martyrs before God because they choose a life of hardship, trial and suffering and give up their lives to protect their dear ones.

Pacifism is a dangerous ideology. It is preached by those who are about to attack you, so you don't fight back. But above all, pacifism is unChristian. Christ allowed soldiers to remain. He even praised on Roman legionnaire for his faith! That was rare. Do you really think that the Lord would have approved of someone who was a murderer? And Longinus the soldier who pierced Jesus' side became a saint, because then he was obeying his orders and he turned his life around later.

Soldiers have to repent about the killing. Saint Basil the Great, I think, once had to decide whether to deny Communion to soldiers and for how long. He was told that it would be impossible because (listen to this) many of the clergy had fought in the recent siege of Rome! How could Basil do without his clergy?

And when the monks of the Holy Trinity Lavra were besieged by Poles the monks donned armor and picked up weapons and fought the horde off. The Patriarch of Constantinople himself came to see these 20 monks and he asked their leader a 90yearold man, how could you fight so well? He said look at the scars the arrows have left in me they should be ample evidence.

Many monks have fought in the two World Wars. Saint Paisios of Athos had been a soldier in WW2.

Soldiers have an honored place in the Church and become martyrs if they die on duty. But you are right they have the responsibility to ensure that they fight for the right side. And Russians may have not always been on that side. They have not always died as martyrs.

With respect

Denys

Effie Ganatsios

13-04-2008, 08:13 AM

Dear Effie,

I admit that I am not an expert on history, but I am going to Greece in the summer and I'm looking to learn more about it.

Now I have only set about on this thread, only, to prove that peoples matter spiritually, that we are related, spiritually as well as otherwise, to the members of the same people. However, at no stage did I argue for favoritism or for nationalism over christening. That would be quite foolish of me. Please stop attacking me for quotes I made, I am not trying to say that the nations are the be all and end all. Christening is the key to heaven. There. This is not just you Effie it's a lot of other people sorry.

If anyone by now thinks that peoples do not matter spiritually please go back to what I said. Imagine when 20 million people are dying of famine, they did not die because of their individual sins only did they? They died because this sort of bad thing was happening to the whole nation.

I am saying peoples exist on a spiritual level. This is crucially important. I am not saying this is to overlook individualism or everything else. Please let me make this one very short point that peoples play a role in the spiritual world. Thank you.

Now, Effie, I'm sorry again that I had to clarify that. Now to your question. I meant no disrespect to anyone. I am saying that citizens of the post-USSR block and maybe Greece have been cushioned from the sort of assault on Christianity that goes on in the rest of the world. At least on paper most citizens in those countries are Orthodox and before the fall of the USSR there was very little in a way of cults sects heresies other religions etc. That is clearly the will of God as He seems to be preserving a unified identity amongst those people. Now even these countries have come in contact with heresy of all sorts from within and from abroad. That is what I was saying. Many people in Russia I know for a fact don't know anything about any religions except Christianity.

On the contrary, Americans grow up in a country where the Orthodox are such a small minority. Where cults and sects and heresies and so on remind us of S Rose's religion of the future. Clearly this is quite a test. In that respect.

For example, S Rose had to search for Orthodoxy, he was not born in and Orthodox family, as he would have been had he been born in say Eastern Ukraine. Clearly S Rose knew more about heresies and other religions that the average Russian. This is my point.

It's a generalization and I understand that there are probably tens of millions of cases where this is not the case.

Denys, I can agree that those who grew up in countries in which there are a lot of religions had to search for Orthodoxy. On the other hand we had to fight for our religion and our language. We had to educate our children secretly - our priests taught them in secret schools. A favourite poem that all Greek children still learn demonstrates this.

My bright little moon
Light my way as I walk
On my way to school
to learn my lessons
Lessons, great lessons, the things of God

Sorry for the translation - it doesn't capture the beauty and rythmn of this little poem.

Children were taught secretly at night. We survived 400 years. If we were not proud of our religion, our nation and our heritage, we would be Muslim today as another country in this region became. So, in this regard nationalism is a good thing. Definitely not when it is taken to extremes.

Alex's post : As to all those who protect their faith being murderers, I have to disagree. Denys, you replied to the above post yourself giving some good examples. In a perfect world, there would be no killing. We do not live in a perfect world. Each of us when confronted with evil will fight. This is a fact of life.

What is disgusting and at the same time sad is that wars are started by cowardly men for their own greedy reasons. These men do not fight themselves but ensure that others, who have no choice in the matter, die for them.

Effie Ganatsios

13-04-2008, 08:24 AM

Dear Effie,

.

Now I have only set about on this thread, only, to prove that peoples matter spiritually, that we are related, spiritually as well as otherwise, to the members of the same people. However, at no stage did I argue for favoritism or for nationalism over christening. That would be quite foolish of me. Please stop attacking me for quotes I made, I am not trying to say that the nations are the be all and end all. Christening is the key to heaven. There. This is not just you Effie it's a lot of other people sorry.

If anyone by now thinks that peoples do not matter spiritually please go back to what I said. Imagine when 20 million people are dying of famine, they did not die because of their individual sins only did they? They died because this sort of bad thing was happening to the whole nation.

I am saying peoples exist on a spiritual level. This is crucially important. I am not saying this is to overlook individualism or everything else. Please let me make this one very short point that peoples play a role in the spiritual world. Thank you.

Now, Effie, I'm sorry again that I had to clarify that. .

Denys, I'm sorry I was harsh when I replied to you. I agree with you. Spiritually we are all connected and in this regard, we are not separated by nationality. I suppose it is just chance that we are born in the country we were born in, although I am not absolutely certain of this because I believe that God arranges our lives even before we are born.

Yes, spiritually we are the same, but this can apply not just to Christians but to all men. All those you seek God, who want to live a good and moral life.

That is why I believe that God comes first in our lives, before country and whatever else might be important to us.

Each morning, after the liturgy, I listen to a 1/2 hr programme on the Church of Greece radio station. The life story of one of the saints being celebrated on that date is narrated. These people died and suffered for their faith. I sometimes wonder whether today there are Christians who would be willing to go through the trials that these people went through. They were not "soft" people. Their faith and belief in God gave them courage.

Effie

Denys Kosovsky

13-04-2008, 01:21 PM

I suppose it is just chance that we are born in the country we were born in, although I am not absolutely certain of this because I believe that God arranges our lives even before we are born.

Yes, spiritually we are the same, but this can apply not just to Christians but to all men. All those you seek God, who want to live a good and moral life.

That is why I believe that God comes first in our lives, before country and whatever else might be important to us.

Dear Effie,

Thank you for still reading my posts. lol

I hope I have convinced you that I am not a bigot who wants favoritism within the Church by nationalism. I also hope that I can at last defend the view that nations/people are not just drawings on a map or chance occurrences.

Yes, God comes first, of course. Above all, one and many have to be Christian as taught by the Gospel and the Fathers. I agree.

Here is my point, though, life is complex. There are many other factors to take into account. Namely, why is one person, one family, one people Christian and not the other? We know that whether one person is Christian or not is decided on whether God wants him (which is a mystery - 'you have not chosen me, I have chosen you' approx), if one is Christian or not he changes forever and carries on developing. ('Let the sinners stay filthy, and let the saints sanctify further' approx). This means that either a people develops in Christian virtues or in sin. Remember that sins are passed on four generations and good deeds a hundred. We can see this effect on the family, they either have a chance of converting to Christianity or not. Needless to say, if the family converts to Christianity, they have the chance of converting their nation to Christianity in the long run. Now we see that a people is in the long run bound by many generations of consequences of sin.

How is this proven? Prince David in the Old Testament fell into sin tempted by a woman. He repented, but the consequences of sin still came through in his children (incest). This is serious. Remember Noah's children? One sin split the three brothers and the entire human race. The offspring of the different sons of Noah have different fates, as predicted by the Bible. One sin affected the fate of the entire world. Through our relatives.

There is more. Remember that every man, according to the Bible, has individual and unique talent for serving the Universal Church. This means that different people have different abilities. Different does not necessarily mean better or worse. The same thing, on a larger scale, is seen with nations. They are different.

The Fathers teach that nothing in life is due to chance. "Seek great meaning in everything. All events, which take place around us and for us, have sense. Nothing occurs without a reason." (Elder Nectarius of Optina). God places us in specific peoples. He chooses whether certain people rise or fall. He determines success or failure.

Here is an example of how national sin is a huge factor today. Tsar Nicholas 2 had been foretold on numerous occasions his fate. He had received advice from St Avel, St Seraphim, etc. He had a vision of God. God said, look at this dish, it is full of sorrow for your people. And the Tsar said let me drink it instead and so he did. This meant that the Tsar knew he was going to be martyred and he did, thus suffering for the nation and saving Russia and even the world from total ruin. This is for spiritually mature people. I did not understand the significance of this initially. Russia rejected God, and His anointed, the Tsar, and this sin required the death of Russia and the world. But due to the martyrdom of the Tsar and his entire family, this sin was paid for with martyr blood. In some infinitely lesser ways, the martyr was given the honor of repeating the sacrifice of the Lord Himself.

One of the signs of the last days are abortions. Remember when Jesus came Herod killed 14,000 infants? Today many million infants are aborted annually. Russia has a huge problem with abortions. It is not uncommon for a woman to have committed seven or even 20! Life and death. This sin has a tremendous effect on the fate of the people as you can imagine... This time I do not know how this. But one of the Elders said that the fate of Russia hangs on a balance, as soon as the balance tips to the side of good...

There is also the fact that Saint John of Kronstadt was the 'seventh column' of Russia and St Matrona was the 'eighth' as St John himself proclaimed her. You see that these 'columns' decide the fate of the nations to a great extent. St Serge has refused to be the official head of the Church in Russia, but mysteriously he became Russia's patron saint. St Seraphim has prophesied that he would rise from the dead in the hour of Russia's greatest deed, and he said with him would come the last and new Tsar. Also a great Saint, one of those special people who belong to God from the beginning. You see that as well as government leadership, the Tsar, the anointed one, there is also the spiritual leadership, the patron saint. Both have great power of prayer over their people.
Are there nations in heaven? No. But we will be judged separated into nations on Judgement Day and we will be judged by the saints who have most pleased God from each people. I would guess that Russians probably will be judged by St Serge.

Finally, we all think we are unique and that we have a special relationship with God. We are and we do. But what happens when our entire people has earned itself punishment? Individual people may find it hard to remain unscathed, the Communists persecuted all Christians, not just individuals. But we all know that Communism was something that has sprung to life in Russia and most of all hurt the Russians themselves.

Not to exaggerate the role of nations, the individual must go about his life, according to the principles of Christianity, which are not too different for any Christian anywhere on earth. However, let us not be so arrogant as to presume that our family does not matter. They say that a man came to St Seraphim and said that he had been punished for ten years and lost a hand and an eye because he physically beat up his parents. This is also true of Russia who betrayed God and the Tsar and as a large family suffered for a hundred years. Let no one be so arrogant as to think that national crimes will pass us all by unscathed and unpunished. Let us repent instead. We have seen that in instance of great national trial individual fates have become swept up and overwhelmed, almost mere statistics. What could one person do when his entire people is being massacred? Think of the Holocaust for example.

This is not to say that our prayers will not be answered and we must resign ourselves to whatever fate our national history demands. But rather we must do as one prophet in the Old Testament did, and get to a stage when we have been forgiven our personal sin, and we pray for our people's sins as our own. Because they are. A greater application is prayer for the entire world. We know that St John of Kronstadt persuaded God to postpone WW1 by several years. Remember Nineveh, where people repented en masse and were spared.

With respect
Denys

Andreas Moran

14-04-2008, 01:00 PM

Years ago a very, very high level American politician made a speech and said that "the Greeks were anarchic and difficult to tame and that for this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots."

Henry Kissinger (who else?!), 14 September 1974.

Peter S.

14-04-2008, 09:54 PM

Dear Denys.

Now I have only set about on this thread, only, to prove that peoples matter spiritually, that we are related, spiritually as well as otherwise, to the members of the same people. I wrote that nationalism is a danger, and I mean it. Spiritually we are first of all united in our religion (faith), and not because we were born in the same area. All christians were born in the same area: the world.

However the religion people choose matters to God. But today its difficult to speak generally of nations and their religion. If we do we must be careful.

My advise is: "forget" about people when you speak about orthodox christian spirituality; russian, serbian, finnish, norwegian, american, coptic or greek-orthodox... It could be clarifying though, to say greek or finnish-orthodox, explaining which bishop you belong to. Well, greek and russian-orthodox are "byzantine-orthodox" although we don't use that explanation.
Its better just to say "ortdodox", or if you have to: "orthodox" from this or that country, ie. from Finland.

What would the apostles do in this case? I think they would just have called themselves "christians" or "followers of Jesus".

Peter

Alex Michael Rusanen

14-04-2008, 11:59 PM

I think it is quite evident that killing, even in selfdefence, is viewed as killing and should be punished by the Church. There are some canons an these matters. - I'll find them soon enough.

How ever we value wordly states we must remember that the kingdom of god is not of this world and that the whole earth is under the power of satan. In WW2 there were no "right sides", i mean i would prefer America infront of nazis and communists, but the autrocities and crueltis were inspired by the demons.

Denys Kosovsky

15-04-2008, 01:39 PM

How ever we value wordly states we must remember that the kingdom of god is not of this world and that the whole earth is under the power of satan. In WW2 there were no "right sides", i mean i would prefer America infront of nazis and communists, but the autrocities and crueltis were inspired by the demons.

Hello again Alex,

You are right, killing is a sin which requires repentance and may even require penitence, there is a difference between murder and killing though, killing is justified by defense, and I believe sometimes especially in times of war no epitimia is called for.

However, you are wrong about WW2. Communism was suppressing Russia and Christianity and all Churches had been shut and all monastics and clergy wiped out or exiled, pretty much. Which is a blow the Church has yet to recover from. The Mother of God saw the war as an opportunity to force the Soviets to open the churches. On the brink of defeat, St Matrona of Moscow and Mitropolit Elijah of Lebanon said, respectively, that Russia would win, and that in order for this to happen the churches had to open. Or the world would be doomed. Stalin saw them personally. He had conceded. The churches were opened and the Nazis were defeated.

If you want to study the WWs from the viewpoint of the Mother of God look up Fatima's revelations from the Mother of God. It was in Portugal and tens of thousands of people saw visions in the sky on a number of occasions.

You may not be aware of the fact that Russia as the carrier of the majority of the Church today is being tested by God, first the Revolution then Communism then Democracy (today) and many wars. St John of Kronstadt and the Optina Elders have explained what is happening and why. Basically, everyone is to be tested. But the Orthodox world is to be tested first, especially Russia. The Orthodox nations shall pass the test because we have the faith. But the rest of the world will also be tested soon, virtually tomorrow, and how can they pass when they are not Christian?
Remember that Christ had a moment when He was on the Cross and He felt left by God, the Orthodox Church will also have such a moment, and Russia is going through it right now.
There is more to history than just ideology, it's not Communists versus Democrats, it has always been man against satan.

"No right sides" is a satanistic saying, remember the other versions "there is no right or wrong", "what is truth?", "no one has the right of it always", "there is no right religion they are all the same", etc. Everyone knows that the Nazis planned complete conquest of the globe and destruction of most people on it. That is a sight worse communism. Everyone knows that Communism made life drab and meaningless. Everyone knows the capitalism offers a life without God. But life is pleasant for the fortunate ones under capitalism.

A Christian should always know the right side and always be fighting for it. "You with me or against me", said the Lord.

You right though to mention demonic involvement in all our lives. Again it is important to mention all the Saints like the two Matronas, Elder Macaria, Seraphim of Vyrytsa, Mitropolit Elijah and many, many others, who fought them. How many martyrs did it take to defeat the devil and his minions? That number still is not known. But I would hazard a guess that the future will demand far more martyrs. As the Book of Revelations makes perfectly clear.

And of course I agree that the world is under satanic control today. I would argue though that the Church study the past so it that when it threatens to repeat itself we are ready.

Denys

Denys Kosovsky

15-04-2008, 02:06 PM

What would the apostles do in this case? I think they would just have called themselves "christians" or "followers of Jesus".

Peter

Dear Peter,

Once again, I must say that nations play an important role in our lives. But I am not not not not not ever saying that nationalism should dominate the Church.

Let me give you an example. A surgeon has maybe 50 tools in his disposal, you don't name a surgeon after every tool, you don't call a surgeon Mr Scalpel because he uses one, since he uses 50 tools all in all. Now God uses nations in different ways, which matters at the time, but where did I ever say that everything else was to suddenly become unimportant????????

Nations play a role, a spiritual one, I said. I did not say let's all call ourselves this or that, let's offer preferential treatment, one people is better than the other or any other such nonsensical thing.

But what about everything else??? Do I say that it has to become unimportant? God, no! Did I say that nations are important and something else isn't? I was specific - I chose one thing out of many. One topic out of a hundred.

I begin to think that you don't actually know what nationalism is. It is not Fascism within the Church, it is pretty much what is going on with the Church right now, certain people have different needs and the Church is split into many parts mostly according to nations and cultural elements. But IN NO WAY does that stop them from having EVERYTHING IN COMMON!

If one people is suffering and the other is prospering, their lives are very different. That is what I am saying. God decides what happens. But at no point do they both cease being Christian and UNITED IN THEIR FAITH!

What on earth do you take nationalism in the Church for? Nazis chasing after people? No, nationalism is when one people is poor and another is rich, so the rich people gives the poorer people a little bit of help. Nationalism is necessity because different people have different needs, physically and spiritually, but it does not stop them being Christian. Nationalism is only national government - it can be good or bad, today it is a necessity. I would guess that Russia has different spiritual needs when compared to Greece, after all Greece does not see ten million plus abortions every year!

Let me tell you what role nationalism plays in the church, a Russian and an American go to pilgrimage, a Russian's car is a 10 year old wreck that costs almost nothing, and the US car costs $20k, it is a direct result what goes on in their homeland, but they both go into the same church and there the distinctions cease.

Where is that version is a danger to the Church? The Russian Church would be looking for donations and the US Church would be looking to make donations.

I would think nationalism is a necessity within the Church, how can the Church treat all the people the same when their needs are often so different, the spiritual needs of people in the US are going to be very different in some ways to those of Georgians, yes there are going to be similarities, probable more similarities. But if you look at the fact that there is war in the Caucasus then again the situation becomes quite different to peace and prosperity in the USA.

By nationalism however I do not mean some sort of Fascism or anything unfair. I don't meant a Russian is worth more than anyone else, or vice versa. And if you think I do, then I am sorry but you are putting words in my mouth.

Denys

Peter S.

15-04-2008, 09:11 PM

Dear Peter,

Let me tell you what role nationalism plays in the church, a Russian and an American go to pilgrimage, a Russian's car is a 10 year old wreck that costs almost nothing, and the US car costs $20k, it is a direct result what goes on in their homeland, but they both go into the same church and there the distinctions cease.

Where is that version is a danger to the Church? The Russian Church would be looking for donations and the US Church would be looking to make donations.

I would think nationalism is a necessity within the Church, how can the Church treat all the people the same when their needs are often so different, the spiritual needs of people in the US are going to be very different in some ways to those of Georgians, yes there are going to be similarities, probable more similarities. But if you look at the fact that there is war in the Caucasus then again the situation becomes quite different to peace and prosperity in the USA.

Dear Denys.

Is this how you understand spirituality???? That the US Church donate money to the members of the russian Church? Money does not help you in your spiritual life. Is this how you explain that nations can play a spiritual role? That is politics. You mix. I hope you know that driving a fast car is not a spiritual need. Start to read a short version of Philokalia, then you maybe will see what spirituality is.

By the way people know that nationalism can result in facsism. People think of nationalism as an ideology, and that is not a coincidence if you look at the history. Nationalism is closely related to patriotism.

However donations can be a result of love. In its nature donations is politics. Spirituality has little to do with physical needs. Money doesnt directly offer any help to our spiritual needs

Peter

Peter S.

15-04-2008, 09:35 PM

Denys Kosovsky

15-04-2008, 11:14 PM

Dear Denys and others,

If such opinions as: "I got my membership in the orthodox Church through my greek mothers milk, and not/secondly through baptism", and others are and become usual in the orthodox Church, it makes a danger. These opinoins are nationalism. This is a danger and this is what I am saying.

Peter

No Peter,

I am not saying that. Although, you will notice that most of the truly great saints had spiritually mature families, remember that good children come to good parents, this is known by everyone in the church. Hence the Lord had the greatest and purest human for His Mother and the greatest saints are distinguished by a righteous lifetime, and they as the highest 'kind' of saints virtually always had spiritual parents. This is why parents are advised to pray, especially pregnant mothers, and both are advised to pray before conception.
Of course, nobody can become Christian except through baptism, but I have never heard of anybody Greek who advocated nationalism over baptism, rather they meant that literally after many generation of Christians, Greeks have become much more Christian, and it would be quite feasible that their mothers' milk has certain properties. We all know that our ancestors if they are Christian can play a significant role in our lives. It is not the milk that is important but ancestral prayer. Mother's prayer is incredibly strong so the benefit of having a Christian mother is impossible to express.

And I was only giving donations as an example. What was meant was clearly that the two people had entirely different lifestyles both materially and spiritually, not that Americans should be paying the bill for other people. How can you have the same spiritual needs (in terms of sin) when you lead completely different lifestyles? For example Russians have unusually high (highest) prison population, so these prison people require a very specialized Church but in England(since US also has high prison population) there are very few prisoners, and prison conditions are entirely different, you can see how spiritually they have different lives, though the church has the same means of helping them , i.e. confession, Communion. Basically, where the average Russian finds it difficult to feed himself, the average American has never been as rich. The spiritual life is going to be different because the whole environment is. The Church is going to stay the same, but the pasture is entirely different. As different as you can get really. Although, ultimately, we have so much more in common than not. I'll say again that a person who has committed abortion has a spiritual nature, Father Ephraim of Athos could at a glance tell if a woman had an abortion, clearly this to say that sin and varying levels of spiritual maturity do differentiate people spiritually. Although this is not the case in heaven, it is is on earth.

Again, Peter, nationalism is not a bad things unless you are referring to Hitler, but people like St John of Kronstadt were nationalist and patriotic and these are not bad words. Nationalism dominates world politics and it always has. This has often lead to bad things, but are you telling me that nationalism in the Church? is going to lead the same results as Hitler's Nazis or Genghis' Mongols? Nationalism in the Church is entirely, different, it is when cultural, social, political, and economic, and spiritual needs are met by the individual churches in slightly different ways. And yet, this does not affect Church unity, the Antiochian Church can still unite with the Greek. Because the dogmas don't change, only their application, for instance the Bible text is not changed but the language maybe.
Also, prayer can be seen by people with spiritual sight, hence spiritual giants can quite literally see and gauge their people's or their neighbor's spiritual wellbeing, and most of 20th century saints gotten involved in the 'spiritual politics' i.e. how many people were Christian and how many prayed.
Also, the philokalia does not have everything about spiritual matters. It is only about spiritual ascetics and hesychasm and saints' lives. But it does not address things like future, prophecies, sorcery, politics, economics, science and so on. The Old Testament contains all of these things, it talks about the people of God, about the making of the world, about social rules, about rulership, about the future of the world in prophecies, about satanic worship and magic and so on. It even gives the number Pi. So please let us not define Christianity only by the philokalia. It is only one aspect. The Old Testament is not understood in the West because we all know that the sharing of knowledge by the Greeks and Russians has been difficult in light of the language barrier. Please don't say that I am against the Philokalia in any way, I would love it that everyone read the works everyday. It's funny that you mention it actually because I would love to work to improve the situation in that way and I've been thinking if I could do something about it for some time now.

I think, Peter, that you have been brought up on the notion that nationalism is bad, and it is very simple - basically, Fascism. But nationalism can be very healthy. Anyway, my argument was that the Church should seek to fulfill every nation's needs, but I was talking about PEOPLE, meaning that I was saying that spiritually peoples are like families. And I have given arguments for that. Most of the time I have been quite misunderstood and people have replied as if I argued for some kind of national preference and prejudice. No. I was simply saying, that people are like big families, and everything that happens affects the people and their future, as well as their spiritual wellbeing. And no matter how many times I make that point, somebody still misunderstands it.
I blame the length of the posts lol

Respectfully

Denys

Peter S.

15-04-2008, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Peter S. http://www.monachos.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=63208#post63208)
Dear Denys and others,

If such opinions as: "I got my membership in the orthodox Church through my greek mothers milk, and not/secondly through baptism", and others are and become usual in the orthodox Church, it makes a danger. These opinoins are nationalism. This is a danger and this is what I am saying.

Peter
No Peter,

I am not saying that. Although, you will notice that most of the truly great saints had spiritually mature families, remember that good children come to good parents, this is known by everyone in the church.

Respectfully

Denys

I am not saying that YOU are saying that. I was referring to some of my earlier posts in this thread about something I heared in Church.

And again: To donate money is not a spiritual role that a national church plays.

Peter

Peter S.

15-04-2008, 11:59 PM

Again, Peter, nationalism is not a bad things unless you are referring to Hitler, but people like St John of Kronstadt were nationalist and patriotic and these are not bad words. Nationalism dominates world politics and it always has.Dear Denys,

Every nationalist in Church is not unfortunately like St. John of Kronstadt. What I register is a bad tendency mixing politics, religion, nationalism and patriotism inside the Church.

And this world order of nations is quite new in history and its not this order that is the best if you look at history, but its maybe no alternative now.

Peter

Kosta

17-04-2008, 06:23 AM

I dont find anything wrong with nationalism. Because of nationalism the greeks didnt convert to Islam and thats why Greece today is not called "Greater Turkey".

It was the Church that preserved greek culture, both its christians culture and its civil culture. At a time when these 2 aspects were not considered an evil dichotomy but part of a peoples cherished identity. The Orthodox Church has shaped many of the Greek customs followed by all, and because of the Church's involvement with politics even the nominal greek Orthodox christian relates Pascha with the Ressurection and not the Easter Bunny nor simply a day to light off fireworks.

Unfortunately its when society attempts to divorce these two aspects that things go awry. Because of the onslaught of secularism, thanks to the influence of the western mindset, Greece is now divided over whether the church allows cremations or not (cremation was a no-no and never debated), sky rocketing divorce rate (used to be the lowest in the western world before the EU forced Greece to enact civil marriages in 1982), and now the emergence of a nimber of pagan cults numbering thousands of adherents, who want to revive the worship of zeus and the greek gods, and have even attempted to use the court system to take back the ancient monuments to use as their temples! Because of western ideals which shuns nationalism as evil and believes and promotes religious plurality (even taking countries to court), the Jehovahs Witness is now the fastest growing religion in Greece.

Peter S.

17-04-2008, 09:14 PM

I dont find anything wrong with nationalism. Because of nationalism the greeks didnt convert to Islam and thats why Greece today is not called "Greater Turkey".

Because of western ideals which shuns nationalism as evil and believes and promotes religious plurality (even taking countries to court), the Jehovahs Witness is now the fastest growing religion in Greece.

I dont think the western culture shuns nationalism, but orthodoxy.

The greeks had to protect their borders and identity against the turks, and that is something positive with nationalism, but nationalism can also lead you astray and into extreme patriotism and make people think that their own people is something special, and preferred by God. Every people are exclusive in a way, but we must not forget that we all are created in the image and likeness of God.

Peter

Effie Ganatsios

18-04-2008, 09:06 AM

(even taking countries to court), the Jehovahs Witness is now the fastest growing religion in Greece.

Kosta, I agree in general with all the comments in your above post. Just wanted to say something about Jehovah Witnesses in Greece - a little off topic perhaps.

My husband worked with 5 or 6 men who were Jehovah Witnesses and he told me that apart from what they believed, he admired them for their life style. Living their lives strictly as outlined in the New Testament, Bible reading every day, family values that are conventional and are more like the family values that used to be prevalent here in the past but are now slowly being destroyed.

Yesterday there was a panel of "experts" discussing some aspects of Orthodoxy. 3 of the pseudo-intellectuals on the panel were of the opinion that religion was just a method of controlling feeble minded people and that 90% of our priests did not believe at all but were just in it for the money. The surprise was that the audience, which was made up mainly of elderly people, reacted very strongly to their comments about what type of people were religious. Old people are not controlled by their fears as we are and have been taught to speak up for themselves. One of the audience stood up, was given the microphone, and told these 3 that their idiotic opinions, and the fact that they and others like them were usually to be found on various TV programmes being very vocal and supporting this "rubbish" was the reason our society (Greek) was in the mess it was in, and the lack of solid values was the reason so many young men took drugs.

It was a very entertaining show - the only time the audience clapped was in response to the remark about priests and their love of money. No fooling the old! It's a shame that a certain percentage of the clergy taint all the rest.

Right after this, on our local station, I watched a beautiful documentary about the Simon-Petros monastery on Aghios Oros.

From the depths I rose to the heights.

Effie

Alex Michael Rusanen

22-04-2008, 11:05 PM

If you want to study the WWs from the viewpoint of the Mother of God look up Fatima's revelations from the Mother of God. It was in Portugal and tens of thousands of people saw visions in the sky on a number of occasions.

Many modern contemporary orthodox theologians lable the fatima revelations as devil-inspired papist propaganda.

By the way, if you meet a patriotic fin IRL, which I am not, never tell him/her that you think Finland belongs to Russia. I heard an old lady say it in Church once and a younger man stood up and yelled: "I thank God that I don't live in that low life standard snake nest of corruption and horror!" - be careful :D

"No right sides" is a satanistic saying, remember the other versions "there is no right or wrong", "what is truth?", "no one has the right of it always", "there is no right religion they are all the same", etc. Everyone knows that the Nazis planned complete conquest of the globe and destruction of most people on it. That is a sight worse communism. Everyone knows that Communism made life drab and meaningless. Everyone knows the capitalism offers a life without God. But life is pleasant for the fortunate ones under capitalism.

I didn't mean that there are no right sides in anything, i just ment that all political ideologies and all states are corrupt human inventions. I would have prefered communism infront of nazism, and american imperialism infront of communism. However all of these include anti-christian elements.

A Christian should always know the right side and always be fighting for it. "You with me or against me", said the Lord.

I agree, but I don't see any "right" political sides, i'm against all of them because none of them even endeavours to fullfill the virtuous standards of the Church.

You right though to mention demonic involvement in all our lives. Again it is important to mention all the Saints like the two Matronas, Elder Macaria, Seraphim of Vyrytsa, Mitropolit Elijah and many, many others, who fought them. How many martyrs did it take to defeat the devil and his minions? That number still is not known. But I would hazard a guess that the future will demand far more martyrs. As the Book of Revelations makes perfectly clear.

I believe that the best offensive of the devil is to make christians kill christians in wars grounded on feebleminded patriotism.

And of course I agree that the world is under satanic control today. I would argue though that the Church study the past so it that when it threatens to repeat itself we are ready.

Denys

Right, and when you're called to arms to fight and kill opponents of whatever country/ideology/religion that may be, make sure that you are on the "right" side...

Alex Michael Rusanen

22-04-2008, 11:12 PM

Effie Ganatsios

23-04-2008, 09:18 AM

I believe we are all aware of the Jesuit saying :

"Give me the child until he is seven and I will show you the man".

Denys wrote : " Although, you will notice that most of the truly great saints had spiritually mature families, remember that good children come to good parents, this is known by everyone in the church."

A child, like a branch, will grow according to how it is taught or directed. But, there will come a time in its life, when it will begin to question, and this is the time that it will look, examine and criticize it's parents' example.

Some good parents produce bad children, and some of the greatest men and women have come from dysfunctional families, so nothing is 100% true or false.

The rule though is Denys description of family life.

Albert Valdez

23-04-2008, 09:38 AM

No nation has copyrights on Christianity. No nation has a capital on Orthodoxy or Catholicism for that matter. Historically, the Italians [i.e, Rome] held the primacy according to all the fathers and councils.

Nationalism is an error because it violates the great commission to evangelize the world. Christianity, or righteousness by "association" [association to a particular ethnicity] is refuted in Scripture by none other then John the Baptist. The Jews thought they were righteous because they were the seed of Abraham. Saint John refuted such a notion by pointing out that "God is able of these stone to raise up children unto Abraham."

A person is not Orthodox because they are Greek, Russian, or any ethnicity. An Orthodox Christian is a person of any race, that has had a heart conversion to Christ within the context of the Church.

ALL ARE CONVERTS. God has NO grandchildren. Salvation is a personal thing -- not a collective thing by association.

Beer is found at football games. But beer does not become athletic by association.

Peanutts are found at baseballs games. But peanutts do not become athletic by association.

I believe that this is why so many Greeks, Russians and Italians are stagnant in their faith because they think they are just somehow born into the Kingdom of God. This is erroneous thinking.

Paul Cowan

24-04-2008, 11:59 PM

Effie Ganatsios

25-04-2008, 09:33 AM

Down here we say the nut does not fall far from the tree.

Paul, in Greek we say, "where will the apple fall? Under the apple tree............."

These old sayings are so very true, aren't they. They are the result of thousands of years of observance all contained in one small sentence.

Good Resurrection - Kali Anastasi Paul.

Today is a day of mourning and in a little while I will go and pay my respects in church. We kiss the icon on the Epitaphio and then pass under it with girl guides and boy scouts helping the old stand up again.... I mentioned this last year I believe. When we have finally managed to stand again, we walk a few paces and then kiss the Cross of Jesus (with Jesus crucified on this cross) which stands a few metres in front of the Epitaphio. Tonight we will gather with our candles and follow the epitaphio as it is taken on its round, symbolizing grieving friends following a coffin to its grave, as is done when someone dies in our daily lives.

Everything has an explanation and nothing is done without there being a reason behind it in our Church.

Today the Great Bell at St. George's church will chime at intervals all day. This is the saddest sound in the world.
This bell is only used for funerals and usually chimes only for about a 1/2 hour or so until the coffin is placed in its grave. Today, for our Lord, it will chime all day, as it does every year on this day.

Alice

26-04-2008, 03:34 PM

Kosta, I agree in general with all the comments in your above post. Just wanted to say something about Jehovah Witnesses in Greece - a little off topic perhaps.

My husband worked with 5 or 6 men who were Jehovah Witnesses and he told me that apart from what they believed, he admired them for their life style. Living their lives strictly as outlined in the New Testament, Bible reading every day, family values that are conventional and are more like the family values that used to be prevalent here in the past but are now slowly being destroyed.

Yesterday there was a panel of "experts" discussing some aspects of Orthodoxy. 3 of the pseudo-intellectuals on the panel were of the opinion that religion was just a method of controlling feeble minded people and that 90% of our priests did not believe at all but were just in it for the money. The surprise was that the audience, which was made up mainly of elderly people, reacted very strongly to their comments about what type of people were religious. Old people are not controlled by their fears as we are and have been taught to speak up for themselves. One of the audience stood up, was given the microphone, and told these 3 that their idiotic opinions, and the fact that they and others like them were usually to be found on various TV programmes being very vocal and supporting this "rubbish" was the reason our society (Greek) was in the mess it was in, and the lack of solid values was the reason so many young men took drugs.

It was a very entertaining show - the only time the audience clapped was in response to the remark about priests and their love of money. No fooling the old! It's a shame that a certain percentage of the clergy taint all the rest.

Right after this, on our local station, I watched a beautiful documentary about the Simon-Petros monastery on Aghios Oros.

From the depths I rose to the heights.

Effie

Dearest Effie,

As one who knows Greek television well, (lately, I think that I dislike the 'talk shows' more there than here--that type of talk show has lost popularity here in the U.S., thank God), I thank you for sharing that story!!

Kali Anastasi!

Your sister in Christ,
Alice

Ryan

17-07-2008, 04:05 PM

Racial divisions and differences are a fact of nature and so not apt to be rejected or condemned.
Divisiveness and discrimination based on race may have been meant but that is not what is said. It is a basic rule of construction that we look to see what is meant by what the writer has said - not what the writer might have meant to say.

I apologize if I annoy anyone by resurrecting an old thread, but I recently came across a similar sentiment in a book by Fr. Stanley Harakas, The Orthodox Church: 455 Questions and Answers . I don't have the book in front of me, but in a section addressing interracial marriage, specifically between a "white" and "black" person, he advises against it, one of the reasons being the curious notion that races and nations are created by God, and we are supposed to preserve that difference. I could be wrong, but I somehow suspect that Fr. Stanley would not take the same stand if, say, a Greek and a Slav or a Greek and an Arab were getting married. In fact, there is really nothing natural about the concept of "race". Yes, people naturally have differences in skin, hair, and eye color, common facial features, etc., but the use of these characteristics to define different "races" is an entirely human enterprise, and relatively recent as well. Before the advent of colonialism, people living in Africa, who had black skin, did not think of themselves as being of the black or African race. Until modern times, Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans did not identify as one 'Asian' race. Definitions of race change over time as well. In the United States, until perhaps the late 19th or early 20th century, certain groups, such as Slavs and Irish, were not considered "white," even though they had fair skin. And in fact every nation is ultimately the result of the interbreeding of different tribes and the mixing of cultures. Most of the modern concepts of national identity, while invoking tradition, are thoroughly shaped by modern pressures. So I think the condemnation of racial differences and divisions as ethno-phyletism makes sense.

Andreas Moran

17-07-2008, 07:58 PM

The differences between me, my Chinese colleague and my Ugandan colleague are obvious. They are a fact. We look different from one another. We are different races. The idea that these factual differences are capable of condemnation makes no sense whatever. Race relations legislation would be meaningless if there were no racial differences.

Paul Cowan

17-07-2008, 08:19 PM

Just a thought to the obsurdity of color or nationality of a people. If they are able to mate within a species, they should be left alone. Mate is the key word. To be able to produce offspring. Humans can mate with any human on the planet. A dog can mate with any dog on the planet. A lion can not mate with a single hippopotamus nor can a human mate with a monkey.

So for man to put restrictions on his brothers because we "look" different or are not from "around here" is just silly. An Aborigine (sp) is just as much a human as a wall street executive. They just wear different clothes. most of the time.

Ryan

17-07-2008, 08:34 PM

If your definition of 'race' is 'looking different from one another', then each individual represents his or her own race. Race is not a synonym for phenotypic variation. As I said above, there is a lot more to what defines race than physical appearance. At one time, Slavs and Irish were not considered 'white' in the US. They had fair skin, but they did not fit into the predominant conception of 'whiteness', for reasons unrelated to their appearance. The apartheid government in South Africa categorized Japanese businessmen as 'white'. The South African government now categorizes Chinese as 'black.' Race is a social construct, related to but definitely separate from the naturally distinctive characteristics determined by genetics. If we are all descended from Adam and Eve than there really is no such thing as race, except in our minds.

Andreas Moran

17-07-2008, 10:12 PM

If your definition of 'race' is 'looking different from one another', then each individual represents his or her own race.

Of course, I'm not an ethnographer. By 'looking different from one another', I meant to refer to those characteristics which evidence the condition of being by descent members of a certain group. I think this must mean that there are different races, descended though we all are from Adam and Eve.

The science of the study of such groupings is different from using race as a social construct. In other words, I agree with the following:
Race is a social construct, related to but definitely separate from the naturally distinctive characteristics determined by genetics. where 'race' is used unscientifically.

Anthony

18-07-2008, 08:31 AM

My understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) has always been that the division of mankind into tribes is a result of the fall, and has in principle been reversed by Pentecost. This is not to say that it can't (like other fallen structures) still have its place in divine providence (one can think of examples) - but it is important to be aware of its fallen and potentially demonic nature.

Appearance, especially colour, is a very superficial (in the literal sense, not meant as an insult) element in the discussion of "race". I believe I am correct in saying that far more prominent genetic differences are involved, for example, in people with different blood groups - not the kind of thing people get excited about.

Maybe I should start a campaign for people with blood group A (or whatever my blood group is). Our own flag, our own language, and of course our own patriarch... ;)

Herman Blaydoe

18-07-2008, 07:11 PM

Simply because someone is Orthodox and even well-thought-of, is no guarantee that they aren't stupid about something.

In Christ there is no longer any Greek or Jew...no matter how tortuous the rationalization that attempts to justify otherwise....

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the non-Greek non-Russian mongrel Pooh

Eric Peterson

18-07-2008, 08:27 PM

Also, just because some statement somewhere was purported to have been made by a saint does not make it authentic, let alone infallible. Lots of saints have been misquoted, and other statements and writings bearing their names are spurious. This has been the case from the beginning, and continues to the present day. With regard to St. Seraphim, many of his sayings were not found until after his death--coming from a scattering of different sources.

Furthermore, even if St. Seraphim says something, it does not make it the Word of God. St. Seraphim's word is not God's Word--it's neither Christ nor Scripture. It must be subject to the conciliar process, that is, it must agree with the mind of the Church as a whole--the writings of the other saints, the councils, and the acceptance of the faithful.

Such notions as Moscow being the Third Rome or an emperor coming back to Constantinople or a tsar back to Russia are the opinions of particular groups and individuals within the Church, and not by any means dogma. They have not been received by the whole Church, as have the Ecumenical Synods, the liturgies, the veneration of saints, etc. Therefore, caution and caveat should be used when discussing them.

I see two extremes on this thread. My personal view is in the middle. The Church must not be tied with ethnicity, culture, nationality, or politics. The Church is universal, catholic, and transcends all boundaries between men. This is an article from the creed, and must be defended as vigorously as any other. That being said, we ought not to judge those of our brethren, be they bishops or babushkas, who miss the mark in this manner. Rather, we need to show by our example--welcoming strangers, visitors, converts, witnessing, preaching, loving--that the Church's catholicity is right and true.

The nationalism that sets up country against country, jurisdiction against jurisdiction, people against people, "cradle" against convert, etc. is rightly condemnable as heresy (the Church calls all to unity in Christ), but the way to battle it is not to point fingers, despair, or claim that those who wrongly believe this way are going to destroy the Church. The gates of hell itself will not prevail against the Church, the Lord says. Rather, wherever we are (there are different issues with phyletism in every place the Church is), we need to do what we can to act according to the truth. Maybe this is just visiting the other Orthodox churches. Maybe this is actually correcting someone in love, showing them their error without being condescending. When phyletism is manifested in higher realms of Church governance, prayer seems the best way.

In any case, it is not a problem or weakness with the Church, this phyletism, but a mentality born out of circumstance--cultural isolation, foreign domination, non-Orthodox influences, and ignorance on the part of the Church's members. It is correctable. I believe it is being corrected, but, like all things in the Church, it happens slowly and organically.

Peter S.

18-07-2008, 10:37 PM

The nationalism that sets up country against country, jurisdiction against jurisdiction, people against people, "cradle" against convert, etc. is rightly condemnable as heresy (the Church calls all to unity in Christ), but the way to battle it is not to point fingers, despair, or claim that those who wrongly believe this way are going to destroy the Church. The gates of hell itself will not prevail against the Church, the Lord says. Rather, wherever we are (there are different issues with phyletism in every place the Church is), we need to do what we can to act according to the truth.

I must admit that sometimes I judge people because of their etnicity and this is not following the truth of Christ. I know little about the differences between cultures and this is also a reason why I judge wrongly. If members of the Church have wrong ideas about the identity of the Church, culture, race and people this is destroying the earthly Church.

Peter

Eric Peterson

19-07-2008, 01:10 AM

If members of the Church have wrong ideas about the identity of the Church, culture, race and people this is destroying the earthly Church.

Peter

Peter,

I can't agree here. Nothing can destroy the earthly or heavenly Church. (They're one, and indestructible.) The Church is always being purified, corrected, and led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. I really think that phyletism, while heresy, is professed in ignorance by the vast majority of those who hold to it. While it can certainly create scandal, I don't see this as something that is spreading, growing stronger. I see it as something leftover, that's coming to right with time, education, and experiencing the Church's universality. Granted, there are serious concerns with this heresy in almost every jurisdiction. Just like there are serious concerns with its close cousin, ecumenism. But God is in charge of His Church and will always send enlightened bishops, priests, elders, monastics, and lay people to set things straight. The Orthodox world is growing closer together, along with the rest of the world. Because of this, we're obviously going to have moments of friction and moments of mutual edification. I think this will all be for the good.

Effie Ganatsios

19-07-2008, 07:53 AM

(When I was younger, I sometimes thought that greeks, russians, serbs and other people from "orthodox countries", were more "orthodox" than others.)

Peter

The above is from the first message on this thread.

The above statement is not true in my experience. Some converts put us to shame with their sincerity and their adherence to Orthodox practices.

Why don't people ask Roman Catholics what country they come from? I don't remember hearing about British Roman Catholics or American Roman Catholics.

I don't see why this should not apply to the Orthodox Church.

We are all Orthodox.

I believe the problem lies in the fact that some converts feel uneasy with the ethnic aspects of the Orthodox church in America.

We have no problem with this in Greece.

A few months ago during the Easter Lent period I remember watching a documentary about one of the Eastern European countries. Orthodox faithful were taking part in a ceremony and I remember feeling touched because I could see what their faith meant to them. Not for a second did I think - these are Eastern European Orthodox. I only thought of them as Orthodox, nothing less, nothing more.

There are some differences between the various Orthodox churches but these are minimal and don't really matter. I would feel comfortable going into any Orthodox church in the world and taking part in the liturgy. This is how all Orthodox feel.

There is something else I want to say. Nothing and no-one is perfect and this includes the Orthodox church. Only God is perfect. We tend to forget this sometimes.

Effie

Rereading the above messages I just wanted to add that I agree with Eric. Everything is working towards the good.

We should not let the devil attack us with doubts and frustration.

Misha

19-07-2008, 12:39 PM

I wish and pray that some day God will give us an Orthodox "Mahatma Ghandi",a politician who loves love,virtue and justice more than his well being.

Peter S.

20-07-2008, 05:42 PM

Peter,

I can't agree here. Nothing can destroy the earthly or heavenly Church. (They're one, and indestructible.) The Church is always being purified, corrected, and led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. Eric

I can die during a disharmony and bad environment in my Community. This is not what we wish for and this is what I mean. We must not sleep working for the well-being of the Church. The differences in the seven letters to the Communities in Asia Minor by St. John the Teologian in Revelation 1,20-3,22 ,I recall. Some Communities were better than others. But this has nothing to do with race I think, not knowing about the differences of races in Asia Minor at that time.

Rereading the above messages I just wanted to add that I agree with Eric. Everything is working towards the good.

We should not let the devil attack us with doubts and frustration. Effie

I agree, but we must not be asleep when we have the truth and work for the truth. You can trust more in that you yourself is right, more than that the truth lies within the Church. I can imagine this is something Richard W. thinks of when he speaks about the "one-sidedness" of our Orthodox Church in another thread, not agreeing with him though.

Peter

Effie Ganatsios

20-07-2008, 06:25 PM

Peter, what can we do? We are not unaware of the dangers to the church, especially in our time where there seem to be very few holy men in high positions.

Trusting in God is very powerful and also effective because it gives us the strength to stand up for what we believe in and to speak out when we have to. Here in my city I have seen a congregation put a priest to shame because of his arrogance and because of his refusing communion to a woman who voted against his views in a church committee. We are not sheep and we have the right to speak out against injustice and against greed and other sins in our church.

Is there anything else that we can do?

Peter, you say "You can trust more in that you yourself is right, more than that the truth lies within the Church. "

Are you saying that personal opinions are always right and above what our Church believes? If you are, then I have to disagree. What do I know? Nothing compared to holy men who have studied for years or our Holy Fathers who, even when uneducated, received the Holy Light and were able to see things clearly and honestly.

Each of us has the hope that by studying our bible, by praying, by fasting etc. we might overcome our weaknesses and be worthy to see the Holy Light, but can you say that you are worthy. I know myself and I know my weaknesses and believe me, I am the last person to be considered worthy. Therefore I know nothing and I trust in those who were before us and who, through God's grace, became holy.

On the other hand, God gave us a brain and we need to use it. We can become bogged down in superstitions etc. if we let ourselves.

But frequently when reading something written by one of our saints, I feel how right the thoughts of the author are, how holy, and how much I am benefiting from reading these words.

I have also read a couple of biographies of modern saints and have felt the insincerity of both the words and actions - especially the actions - of the person the book is about. I trust my instinct in these matters.

Perhaps I am wrong.

Effie

Peter S.

21-07-2008, 03:11 PM

Peter, you say "You can trust more in that you yourself is right, more than that the truth lies within the Church. "

Are you saying that personal opinions are always right and above what our Church believes? If you are, then I have to disagree. What do I know? Nothing compared to holy men who have studied for years or our Holy Fathers who, even when uneducated, received the Holy Light and were able to see things clearly and honestly.

Effie

No I ment that to trust more in yourself is wrong, but that wasn't easy to understand.

Peter

Effie Ganatsios

21-07-2008, 06:07 PM

No I ment that to trust more in yourself is wrong, but that wasn't easy to understand.

Peter

OK Thanks Peter. That seems right to me. sorry I misunderstood you.

Effie

Alexander Zhdanov

10-09-2008, 04:38 PM

I would like to tell you one story.
Once on Sunday, shortly after Easter, I was going to our church and thinking that I liked refined Asians more. For example, Japanese, Chineses, Koreans.That were my thoughts...I attended service and left in a court yard where met a friend of mine, Nikolay, who served the priest in an altar. We together burnt notes about health and rest and talked about something. At this time two Kazakh women approached to us and asked to burn a shell from eggs which have been consecrated for Easter. Nikolay was not happy and did not know where to put this shell as they were only who brought it(although it was necessary to do it under the tradition). I was surprised by their awe too, and especially their reverential behaviour in a temple.

"...and have clothed yourselves with the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of its creator. 11In that renewal* (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) there is no longer Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and free; but Christ is all and in all! " Colossians 3 (10-11)

"...As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3 (27-28)

Peter S.

10-09-2008, 09:05 PM

Isn't nationalism and national states a result of modernism, with its so called humanism and secularism? This is where "we" are now and the ideology of today.

Now people talk about globalization and a "global religion", ie. that every faith is the same, and that we should find common rituals for the global religion. And they call it ecumenism. It is only a dream of course.

If Orthodoxy will fight this it must unite, but nationalism in the Churches is in a way a hindrance to this unification of will.

But Alexander Z.,you said it better than me.

Peter

Ryan

07-12-2009, 10:32 PM

I think the following quote from the last interview (http://incendiarious.wordpress.com/2009/11/28/the-final-interview-with-father-daniel-sysoyev-hasten-to-heaven/)with the new martyr Fr. Daniel was worth reproducing here:

Where is a Christian’s homeland, the cares of which his heart must be overflowing with? Where is the place that Orthodox can call home? In recent years, I have heard a lot of discourse on this subject. As a homeland we have been offered Russia, the Soviet Union, and America, the “the land of liberty.” In the name of the people or the state, we are offered to consent to a crime or dedicate our life to the service of the fatherland, the nation. It is suggested that we consider the well being of that land where we were fated to be born or where our ancestors were born to be the greatest value, and we are reproached with the question of why the Church “does not fight for the rights of the people,” or, on the other hand, they write that “the Church always served Russia” (from the banner of a suburban Moscow church). Instead of all of this I suggest to return to words of Scripture which have been forgotten by many, “…here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come” (Hebrews 13:14). Our only and eternal Homeland is heaven. Our Father lives there, our fellow citizens, the saints, are there, the Church will find there eternal peace after a long war with the devil.

We are not nationalists for in Christ and in His Church there are no nations. As Russians and Tartars and Jews and Americans we have become one new people of the Covenant. We pray and worry so as to lead as many people as possible into the Celestial Home. We are not patriots of the earth, for we remember the words of St. Gregory the Theologian. “And these earthly countries and families are the playthings of this our temporary life and scene. For our country is whatever each may have first occupied, either as tyrant, or in misfortune; and in this we are all alike strangers and pilgrims, however much we may play with names” (Oration 33). We are striving for the New Jerusalem and only with its interests in mind do we bring our actions into correlation.

Uranopolitans are members of the Body of Christ, which exceeds kinship of language and unity according to citizenship by state, and that is why the interests of the Universal Church are more important for us than any remaining interests. Only the one who has become a true citizen of heaven is capable of true freedom, about which the Savior said, “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed” (John 8:36). We are no longer obliged to think in unison with this passing world. We should not consider that society, the nation, or the state is more important than an individual. This is not so; when all the nations disappear, when all the kingdoms of the world collapse, we will live in the flesh in our Homeland. The state is created by God for us and not us for the state. The nations, the result of the condemnation of Babylon, will vanish, but all those people that they are composed of will remain, those whom our Heavenly Father commanded us to love as ourselves.