View Full Version : Faith in oneself
Dear all,
I have two major question that are important for me at the moment.
We have heard the commandment: "Let us entrust ourselves, and each other, and all our life to Christ our God", which obviously requires that we put all our faith and trust in God. Further, we know of the parable of the young rich man, who wanted to inherit the kingdom of God, and who was told by Christ to leave all material security by giving up his wealth and to put his trust in Him. We know also that we are not worthy to do this or that, and so this topic is easily neglected.
--But what about trust, faith, and confidence in oneself? We know from psychology, that trust in oneself is very important, and that lack of trust in oneself can be damaging for our relationship with friends and family. I am in search for an answer now to understand how faith in oneself is understood in the Orthodox tradition. Where in Scripture or from the Fathers have you seen anything on trust and faith and confidence in oneself? To what extent do we need to have it? Can we and should we trust ourselves? What do the Fathers say about this? The answer is obvious: of course, we should trust ourselves. But the opposite seems to come just as easily: of course, we cannot trust ourselves. We have to put all our faith in God.
--I have thought that love is the foundation because by loving each other we fulfill the commandments, but when trust in self is not present, it seems that love is not given the opportunity to grow. So, love is not enough?
And so, to sum up:
1. How is trust in self understood in the Orthodox tradition?
2. Love or trust in self is foundational, considering that lack of trust in self can undermine a relationship.
thank you
--But what about trust, faith, and confidence in oneself? We know from psychology, that trust in oneself is very important, and that lack of trust in oneself can be damaging for our relationship with friends and family. I am in search for an answer now to understand how faith in oneself is understood in the Orthodox tradition. Where in Scripture or from the Fathers have you seen anything on trust and faith and confidence in oneself? To what extent do we need to have it? Can we and should we trust ourselves? What do the Fathers say about this? The answer is obvious: of course, we should trust ourselves. But the opposite seems to come just as easily: of course, we cannot trust ourselves. We have to put all our faith in God.
Is the answer really obvious, that we should trust ourselves? It's not so obvious to me. I haven't read anything in the Bible or in my readings so far, about trusting myself. (that's not to say such things aren't there to read, I haven't read everything that there is to read...) That's what the world out there says I should be able to do - believe in myself, etc.
Is that orthodox? I don't know.
However, it's dangerous for me, personally. I cannot trust myself, because I have no self control, I have no discernment, I have no wisdom, I have no love, I have no understanding, my feelings are unreliable, and my past is filled with instances of failure - failed myself and those who have relied on me. So, according to logic, if any is left in me, I would do well, to NOT trust myself.
This doesn't mean I live in fear. Rather, it means, I rely on God to help me do what's right, because, left to myself, I can do nothing good or right.
--I have thought that love is the foundation because by loving each other we fulfill the commandments, but when trust in self is not present, it seems that love is not given the opportunity to grow. So, love is not enough?
I don't see how trust in myself connects to the growth of love. I'm not sure how that affects my relationships with others either. Could you elaborate on that?
Thanks.
Mary.
Effie Ganatsios
24-02-2008, 09:18 AM
We trust in God first and foremost but, I admit, it is sometimes difficult to do. I have read that fear is just a lack of trust in God. If I trusted in myself, when I know myself as well as I do - at least that's what I believe - I would be in deep trouble. I have observed my mind jumping from postive to negative in seconds when I have a serious problem. Is this really the mind I can put my trust in? But, when I calm myself and pray about my problem, when I start to say the Jesus Prayer, then I find that my mind finds peace and I am able to think logically and trust in God.
I need to say something about positive thoughts here.
Elder Paisios (I am reading his book, so forgive these frequent references to his words) says that without our own positive thoughts working for us, not even a saint can help us. This seems to mean that we do our share, we prepare the ground, so to speak, for God's help. If we are negative then whatever comes our way will not help us because we will not let it help us.
What does love of self mean? That you are totally in command, that you believe that you are right, that you are proud of yourself? There is a difference I believe in a secular love of self and that of a healthy respect for the mind God gave you and that you commit to him. A person cannot function when he despises himself. We all know this and know that this feeling will cause problems in life. But respect of self is different. It means that we know our faults, that we allow the Holy Spirit into our lives to show us hidden faults that we work on, it means that we allow love to guide our steps.
Entrusting ourselves or entrusting ourselves to God :
We should face our problems with patience, positive thinking and humility, in this way we allow the grace of God to help us.
So again, dear Anya, I think it all comes back to what we think love of self is. Is it a pampered love for ourselves, our emotions and our bodies or is it a pious respect for the body and mind God created.
1 Pet 5:7
Cast your anxieties on Him, for he cares for you.
The above is what I believe but it does not mean that we do not use our brains - the brain God created. We have a health problem, know what we should do to, if not cure it, at least control it. If we do exactly the opposite, what can we expect the results to be? Not good. Who do we then blame? God? For not taking care of us?
First, love of God, and everything else will open to you.
Love Him and trust Him. He will open a path for you in your hour of need. He will provide for you before you even know that you need anything, he will also protect you from yourself if you let Him.
Effie
Our time of Lent is coming and during it we will discipline ourselves and our emotions. Strength of mind and purpose are surely also signs of self respect and love of self in a pious way.
Andreas Moran
24-02-2008, 11:06 AM
Christ said, love thy neighbour as thyself. He must have had something in mind about this, then. The Fathers say, our neighbour is our life. A visitor to a hermit on Mt Athos asked why he prayed for himself (the Jesus Prayer) and not for others. 'We are one', the hermit replied.
pious respect for the body and mind God created.
What Effie says strikes me as right. Self-respect, perhaps.
I cannot trust myself, because I have no self control, I have no discernment, I have no wisdom, I have no love, I have no understanding, my feelings are unreliable, and my past is filled with instances of failure - failed myself and those who have relied on me. So, according to logic, if any is left in me, I would do well, to NOT trust myself.
This doesn't mean I live in fear. Rather, it means, I rely on God to help me do what's right, because, left to myself, I can do nothing good or right.
What Mary says here also seems right.
The Prodigal Son lacked love of both self and neighbour. He recovered these when he confessed to his father. We show love for ourselves if, especially as we enter Lent, we confess that we have offended against God Who loves us and against ourselves for not loving ourselves by striving to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect. As someone said, our life is God's gift to us:what we do with it is our gift to Him. My gift is definitely not acceptable.
Owen Jones
24-02-2008, 05:39 PM
I have been told that the correct translation should be more like, love thy neighbor as you are loved. Perhaps someone with good Greek can verify this?
Modern psychology is based on the idea of being "well adjusted." So if one experiences guilt and remorse and self-loathing, this is a sign of maladjustment. Since people do what they do based on natural impulses, there is no such thing as moral guilt, according to modern psychology. Only psychological guilt which is derived from "maladjustments." And the maladjustment is based on what psychologists theorize as repression. A person becomes maladjusted because he has repressed certain memories or experiences or thoughts which are deemed societally unnaceptable, because of societal taboos. So the psychologist attacks societal taboos first, and then tries to get the patient to confront his repressed feelings, with the premise that the guilt and self-loathing will disappear once these repressed memories and experiences are revealed to the patient.
If one experiences self-loathing, it is treated as a primary syndrome, not a natural consequence of sinful thoughts or sinful living. When I experience self-loathing, it's for good reason!
But the psychologist, as a matter of principle, is not going to confront the patient with any notion that he has done wrong, that he may be filled with anger and resentments, envy, avarice, materialistic desires that cannot be fulfilled, etc. I liked the character in Ostrov, who, according to our psychologists, is severely, pathologically maladjusted. But his self-hatred is the source of his spiritual powers.
I would love to write a book someday about how self-hatred is a good thing.
Owen Jones
24-02-2008, 05:50 PM
As an aside, my favorite TV show is Monk. (symbolic, huh?) It is filled with fantastic lines. Last show, someone says, you only go around once in life. Monk says, that's the best news I've heard all day! In one show, he makes an insensitive remark, and someone chastises him, saying, you should be ashamed! Monk says, matter-of-factly-I am, 24-7. He is being treated for ptsd (his wife was murdered and he is still in love with her and can't function without her), and ocd (he notices any tiny thing that is out of place, out of order). But this is the key to him being a great detective. And I think that is what a Christian is, a great detective, who notices everything that is out of place and out of order. It can be burdensome. It is our cross. The next question is, can we love that which is out of its proper place, out of order, and this is Monk's limitation. He despises everything that is out of place, out of order.
We should despise our sins, to be sure. But in a sense, we should also embrace them, in the sense of becoming intimately familiar with them so that we instantly notice them. They are constant reminders of our lack of goodness, and this is our burden, our cross, but it is also a constant reminder of God's goodness, and that we are not God.
Most of us go through life thinking that our goal ought to be becoming decent, good people, while we know deep inside that that is not true. And so we spend our lives lying to ourselves, and pretending in front of other people, and this leads to far more psychological distress than if we would just admit that we are pitiful, hopeless sinners.
Dearest all,
I keep having questions:
If you do not think that you are worthy to trust yourself, why do you think that other people are worthy of your trust?
This question begs the next one:
If you tell a loved one that you love them, but nevertheless they are not worthy of your trust, would you be able to have a relationship which is more than just, let's say, internet buddies or friends or well-wishers? The other person could be quite offended that you consider them unworthy of your trust....
Father David Moser
24-02-2008, 08:40 PM
If you do not think that you are worthy to trust yourself, why do you think that other people are worthy of your trust?
No I cannot trust myself and no one else should trust me either. God alone is worthy of our trust. If God leads you to me then do not trust me, but trust God that He made the correct choice in bringing us together.
This question begs the next one:
If you tell a loved one that you love them, but nevertheless they are not worthy of your trust, would you be able to have a relationship which is more than just, let's say, internet buddies or friends or well-wishers? The other person could be quite offended that you consider them unworthy of your trust....
If two people trust only God, then not only is a relationship possible, but it will be the most intimate God blessed relationship you can have. And if some other person is offended that you only trust God, I would say that that is their problem not yours.
On the general topic here, I've got to go along with Owen's post above. Modern psychology can only help in the most surface of ways. If you try to apply the practice of psychology as a cure to the soul, it will only lead to damnation. Trust the care and health of your soul to the Church, not to the psychologists!
Fr David Moser (a former psychologist)
Fr David Moser
Dearest all,
I keep having questions:
If you do not think that you are worthy to trust yourself, why do you think that other people are worthy of your trust?
This question begs the next one:
If you tell a loved one that you love them, but nevertheless they are not worthy of your trust, would you be able to have a relationship which is more than just, let's say, internet buddies or friends or well-wishers? The other person could be quite offended that you consider them unworthy of your trust....
Dear Anya,
I shudder whenever I see the trust and love my children have for me, because I know I do not deserve it. I live in constant fear of letting them down, because I know full well, I will. However, this fear of letting them down, motivates me to work hard in order to not let them down, in order to live up to their expectations, and when I fail, it helps me to beg their forgiveness.
No, I am not worthy of anyone's trust. I am entirely selfish, and only care for myself. My love is extremely shallow, and shouldn't even be called 'love'!
We sing at vespers: "Put not your trust in princes and sons of men..."
So, do not put your trust in me. Never listen to me as if I know what I'm talking about. Always use your better judgment, the conscience that God has given you, etc etc. You should never ever rely on another person to such a great extent as if they were God himself. I do not wish anyone to rely on my to such an extent either.
I do not expect strangers to trust me. I do not even expect my own family and friends, who have been hurt by me, to be able to trust me as much as they used to. If they do, it's because of their graciousness and love and forgiveness towards me, and not because I deserve it! I know my shortcomings, and so do they. I should have no friends by now, but I still do! May God bless them for their kindness to me!
Yes, I try to be trustworthy. But am I? Not yet.
But you'll hear me tell my kids, countless times - "Listen to me. I am telling you this for your own good..." But, they're still little. Just 9 and 6. I hope, by the time they're older, that I would be a bit more trustworthy, a bit more loving, so I can continue helping them, as their struggles and problems get bigger.
And for your first question - why do I think others are worthy of my trust? Depends. I don't trust everyone. I'm usually very, very cautious about whom I trust. Things like that happen after your trust has been taken lightly a few times. You get cautious. But you do have to learn to trust again, or else, you'll be imprisoned inside yourself.
I have different kinds of trusts too. I trust one person with my life. I trust the bus driver to drive my kids to school safely. I trust others with all my possessions, but not the secrets of my heart... etc.
in Christ,
Mary
Paul Cowan
24-02-2008, 09:52 PM
And so we spend our lives lying to ourselves, and pretending in front of other people, and this leads to far more psychological distress than if we would just admit that we are pitiful, hopeless sinners.
AND,
Because I admit I am a pitiful and hopeless sinner, I lie to my self and pretend in front of other people and this leads to far more psychological distress.
But you do have to learn to trust again, or else, you'll be imprisoned inside yourself.
There is nothing wrong with the prison of my mind. It keeps me safe and secluded from the harm of the world around me. Trust others? Only as far as I can trust myself, and that ain't much.
Paul
Fr Raphael Vereshack
24-02-2008, 10:39 PM
Fr David wrote:
On the general topic here, I've got to go along with Owen's post above. Modern psychology can only help in the most surface of ways. If you try to apply the practice of psychology as a cure to the soul, it will only lead to damnation. Trust the care and health of your soul to the Church, not to the psychologists!
Fr David Moser (a former psychologist)
Fr David Moser
Yes, Father... but which Father David is speaking to us?
In Christ- Fr Raphael
There is nothing wrong with the prison of my mind. It keeps me safe and secluded from the harm of the world around me. Trust others? Only as far as I can trust myself, and that ain't much.
Paul
The only problem with such a prison is that it doesn't discriminate between good and bad. True, it protects you from harm, but it also locks out love. And, it works both ways too. It locks your love in, and you can't show love to the person that you truly do love.
It's not a nice prison. Like Fr David said, an intimate relationship is possible, when those involved are trusting God.
For starters, I know that I have a much better relationship with my own kids, than I did with my parents. I learned early, that I could not trust my mother with the secrets of my heart, because she'd get hysterical. However, my kids, esp. my son, isn't afraid of talking to me about, everything! True, he's only nine... but hey, I had secrets from when I was 6! I don't hide my weaknesses from my kids. I don't go out of my way to expose my weaknesses either, I figure, it'll all be apparent in it's own good time. I appologize to them, whenever I do the very thing I tell them not to do. They trust me, but they also know that I'm not perfect.
One of the happiest conversations I had with my son, was when he said to me: "How do you do it?" I asked him what he was talking about, and he said: "How do you keep trying over and over, when it doesn't work?"
But the walls I built were high and deep and dense, and there are many days when I don't know if I truly love my kids or not - like this past week, when they were away for four days. My first time away from them, and I didn't miss them even a teensy tiny bit! I didn't think about them, I barely prayed for them when I walked passed their rooms, and I didn't, for even a fraction of a second wonder how they were doing without me. I only talked to them twice, on the phone. Do I love them?? I don't know! I really don't know.
Mary.
Paul Cowan
24-02-2008, 10:55 PM
The only problem with such a prison is that it doesn't discriminate between good and bad. True, it protects you from harm, but it also locks out love. And, it works both ways too. It locks your love in, and you can't show love to the person that you truly do love.
What love is it keeping out? Love of the world? Good. Love of my wife, that's where the difference is. I don't need nor desire "outside" love. The world can keep it. What I have with my wife is much different. She is not out to harm me.
Ok, if "prison" is too strong a word, how is the "safehouse" of my mind. Keep your mind in Hell and despair not. What saferr place to keep my mind than in hell and the rememberance of death and what will bring death?
Paul
What love is it keeping out? Love of the world? Good. Love of my wife, that's where the difference is. I don't need nor desire "outside" love. The world can keep it. What I have with my wife is much different. She is not out to harm me.
Ok, if "prison" is too strong a word, how is the "safehouse" of my mind. Keep your mind in Hell and despair not. What saferr place to keep my mind than in hell and the rememberance of death and what will bring death?
Paul
I don't think the 'love' of the world can truly be classified as 'love'. But, yes, the prison, does keep out God's love too. Why else would I be having so much trouble remembering that He loves me? Why else would I be having so much trouble loving Him back?
And another one:
If God has given us to do a project--whatever it is--do not we have some sort of obligation to Him or out of gratefulness to Him to have faith in ourselves that God wants us to complete it? After all, He gave us the project. He thinks us worthy and, I believe, He enjoys it that we are involved with it. Then, is not our failure in faith in ourselves a disregard of God's will? What if we keep saying, "No, I cannot do this. I am unworthy servant. Nah, God could not just have given me such a great thing to accomplish. I am so unworthy. I have never done this. I do not deserve to be given such an honor because I constantly show how I manage to fail." And because we are so unworthy and have no faith in us, then we may just as well fulfill our own prophesy of failure, which was not really God's doing if we presume that we used our free will in not believing in ourselves.
Thank you for all posts. It's all sinking in...
Owen Jones
25-02-2008, 01:36 AM
I acknowledge the point, but most of God's saints and prophets did not think that God was very smart in choosing them. They frequently did not believe in themselves. Can we not simply take what I think would be the Orthodox "line" so to speak, that we don't believe in ourselves, but we are willing to keep an open mind about what God wants us to do, and that He will give us the power that we do not have, in order to do what needs to be done? It may seem like splitting hairs, but I think the distinction is key. It is not me, but God in me doing the work.
It is not me, but God in me doing the work.Sure, but don't we need confidence in ourselves to judge that it's God Who's telling me to do something?
When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, isn't it possible that Abraham misheard God? Perhaps Abraham had confidence in his own self.
Confidence and faith in self seems so utterly important. Self-confidence is perhaps something like a good self-in-God-awareness; something like knowing oneself. And if one does not know oneself (this is in Song of Songs), how can one love? Unfortunately for my logical processes, this makes faith in self foundational, and next thing I know, I find myself with the dilemma of having to handle two foundations: love and faith. Help!
Michael Stickles
25-02-2008, 03:20 AM
If God has given us to do a project--whatever it is--do not we have some sort of obligation to Him or out of gratefulness to Him to have faith in ourselves that God wants us to complete it? After all, He gave us the project. He thinks us worthy and, I believe, He enjoys it that we are involved with it. Then, is not our failure in faith in ourselves a disregard of God's will? What if we keep saying, "No, I cannot do this. I am unworthy servant. Nah, God could not just have given me such a great thing to accomplish. I am so unworthy. I have never done this. I do not deserve to be given such an honor because I constantly show how I manage to fail." And because we are so unworthy and have no faith in us, then we may just as well fulfill our own prophesy of failure, which was not really God's doing if we presume that we used our free will in not believing in ourselves.
We have a perfect example of this in God's call to Moses. God gives him the project of freeing the Israelites from bondage in Egypt. Moses says "But I can't do that, I can't speak well, they won't listen to me" and so on.
But what was God's rejoinder? He did not say "Moses, have more faith in yourself, I know what you can do." Rather, it was more like "Moses, have more faith in me, I will be with you."
God never speaks of Moses' ability or inability. Moses asks, "Who am I?" to do this. God answers, "I will be with you." Moses protests, "I am slow of speech and tongue." God says, "Who gave man his mouth? ... I will help you speak and will teach you what to say." And note that God does not get angry at Moses for doubting his own ability, but for implicitly doubting God when he says "O Lord, please send someone else to do it."
Do not trust your strengths and virtues to be strong enough to succeed apart from God; do not trust your weaknesses and passions to be strong enough to defeat God's grace.
In Christ,
Mike
We have a perfect example of this in God's call to Moses. God gives him the project of freeing the Israelites from bondage in Egypt. Moses says "But I can't do that, I can't speak well, they won't listen to me" and so on.
But what was God's rejoinder? He did not say "Moses, have more faith in yourself, I know what you can do." Rather, it was more like "Moses, have more faith in me, I will be with you."
God never speaks of Moses' ability or inability. Moses asks, "Who am I?" to do this. God answers, "I will be with you." Moses protests, "I am slow of speech and tongue." God says, "Who gave man his mouth? ... I will help you speak and will teach you what to say." And note that God does not get angry at Moses for doubting his own ability, but for implicitly doubting God when he says "O Lord, please send someone else to do it."
Do not trust your strengths and virtues to be strong enough to succeed apart from God; do not trust your weaknesses and passions to be strong enough to defeat God's grace.
In Christ,
Mike
Yeah - what he says. =)
From Mary's post :
Quotation:
--I have thought that love is the foundation because by loving each other we fulfill the commandments, but when trust in self is not present, it seems that love is not given the opportunity to grow. So, love is not enough?
I don't see how trust in myself connects to the growth of love. I'm not sure how that affects my relationships with others either. Could you elaborate on that?
Here's the elaboration: two people love each other. However, one of them starts believing that even if both love each other, the relationship is doomed. The one expresses fear that it is possible that sometime in the future the relationship will collapse; so, better end it now than later. Assuming that the one who has fear in the possible failure of the relationship expresses this fear because of lack faith in self (not lack of trust or faith in God!), the love between these two people is not given a possibility to exist and develop because one of them does not have faith in oneself.
How is it possible if love is the foundation and is present for a relationship not to survive one's lack of faith?
On a different note, my post (#17) appeared in the forum much later than I posted it, and earlier in the sequence, and I am not sure if anyone has read it.
Thank you all.
Herman Blaydoe
27-02-2008, 02:21 PM
From Mary's post :
Here's the elaboration: two people love each other. However, one of them starts believing that even if both love each other, the relationship is doomed. The one expresses fear that it is possible that sometime in the future the relationship will collapse; so, better end it now than later. Assuming that the one who has fear in the possible failure of the relationship expresses this fear because of lack faith in self (not lack of trust or faith in God!), the love between these two people is not given a possibility to exist and develop because one of them does not have faith in oneself.
How is it possible if love is the foundation and is present for a relationship not to survive one's lack of faith?
Well, the problem sounds more like a lack of trust in the other person, that he/she is simply not capable of loving me despite my flaws. It is not so much selling myself short as it is selling the other person short, IMO. I'm ending it now because I don't trust the other person to stick it out, or else I'm simply losing interest. Better to have less "faith" in me and more in the other person, but that might just be me...
We have to get beyond ourselves, not "into" ourselves. I have to suspect that having "faith" in who we "are" keeps us from realizing our true potential. We have to die to our present concept of who we are (the old man) to become empty vessels in order for Christ to fill us with who we are created to be (the new man), or so it seems to this bear of little brain.
Herman the Pooh
Michael Stickles
27-02-2008, 02:52 PM
Here's the elaboration: two people love each other. However, one of them starts believing that even if both love each other, the relationship is doomed. The one expresses fear that it is possible that sometime in the future the relationship will collapse; so, better end it now than later. Assuming that the one who has fear in the possible failure of the relationship expresses this fear because of lack faith in self (not lack of trust or faith in God!), the love between these two people is not given a possibility to exist and develop because one of them does not have faith in oneself.
As I see it, the only way a lack of faith in myself could lead to a belief that the relationship was doomed, would be if I believed that the health of the relationship was primarily dependent upon me. If I believed the relationship's health depended on my spouse, a lack of faith in her would threaten my hopes for it; if I believed it depended on God, then lack of faith in God would threaten my hopes for it.
You need to have faith and trust in the one in whom you place your hope. Psychology places its hope in man, which is why it considers faith and trust in oneself to be important. Orthodoxy calls us to place our hope entirely in God and in Christ, so we consider faith and trust in God and in Christ to be important.
Having faith and trust in oneself normally leads to placing some amount of hope and dependence in oneself, which interferes with having all of our hope and dependence in God. This, I believe, is why the Fathers warn us against having any trust in ourselves - so that we can keep all of our hope in God.
Sure, but don't we need confidence in ourselves to judge that it's God Who's telling me to do something?
Not at all. In fact, this is one area where the Fathers particularly warn us not to have faith in ourselves. Rather, when we believe (or even just suspect) that God is telling us something, we are to submit that to the judgement of our spiritual father, trusting not in his judgement per se but in the grace of God that operates in him. To trust in our own discernment of God, apart from the counsel of the Church, is to open the door to spiritual delusion.
In Christ,
Mike
From Mary's post :
Here's the elaboration: two people love each other. However, one of them starts believing that even if both love each other, the relationship is doomed. The one expresses fear that it is possible that sometime in the future the relationship will collapse; so, better end it now than later. Assuming that the one who has fear in the possible failure of the relationship expresses this fear because of lack faith in self (not lack of trust or faith in God!), the love between these two people is not given a possibility to exist and develop because one of them does not have faith in oneself.
How is it possible if love is the foundation and is present for a relationship not to survive one's lack of faith?
On a different note, my post (#17) appeared in the forum much later than I posted it, and earlier in the sequence, and I am not sure if anyone has read it.
Thank you all.
Thanks for elaborating your thoughts. Perfect example, because I'm always struggling with my relationships. In fact, it sounds like you've read my private e-mails! lol (I hope not!!)
I love people. I've made many friends. I've also lost many friends. At first, it was simply because they moved away. And then, it was because our sinfulness got in the way. So, for 3 years, I locked myself up, trusting no one else, and thoroughly hating myself. In those three years, I kept looking for a friend, but everyone was busy. I couldn't understand why people wouldn't want to be friends with me. Wasn't I lovable? Am I not special? Don't I deserve to be loved as much as the other person?
So now, I have friends. I wasn't sure they truly wanted to be my friends. So I tested them. I annoyed them as much as I could. I behaved foolishly and immaturely and did everything I could, to prove that they truly weren't going to stick with me. But they have. In light of their patience and love towards me, I have seen myself as I am - I am capable of some of the most hideous behavior possible. I am unlovable. I am immature and foolish and I talk too much. I have burdened them exceedingly. I keep wondering when they'll get filled up and quit. About 4 or 5 times a year, my doubts overcome me and I send stupid e-mails asking for reassurance - "Are you still going to be my friend?" I've learned that, of all my stupid questions, that's the worst one, because it expresses doubt in them. (So, my resolution for this year, is to not ask that question.)
But, not for a second has it crossed my mind to end our relationship, because I desperately need them! I do not know if they need me or not, but I know that I'd die without them. I do not understand why anyone should care, I have nothing to offer. But people still care. They still call me a friend. So, I have confidence, that my relationships will survive, in spite of me. And now, since I have come to my senses, I try not to burden my relationships, by acting like a jerk. I'm trying to grow up. I try to be more grateful, more thoughtful, less selfish, and all other such good things.
I still don't have faith in myself - I know myself too well. But I also know that God has enabled my friends to love me. (I know it's God's love through them, what else could survived my darkness?) And I'm trusting Him to enable me to love them back. Not that I know how to trust Him to love through me... still figuring that out, a little bit at a time.
In Christ,
mary
Anya,
I have read over this thread and see you've been given much worthy counsel, and I don't know what this poor clod can add of value. However:
In your initial post, you ask the following: And so, to sum up:
1. How is trust in self understood in the Orthodox tradition?
2. Love or trust in self is foundational, considering that lack of trust in self can undermine a relationship.
In the Orthodox Christian tradition there is no trust in self. We trust no one save God himself. Now this is not to say that we distrust everyone in the sense that we have a negative skeptical outlook on everyone and everything. Rather we simply know that only God is completely worthy of our trust. We look at everyone realistically, knowing that they--like us--are only frail creatures of dust, subject to temptations and falling into sin. Therefore, knowing that they can fall short of our expectations, we hold out no false hopes, no pretense of belief that they will never disappoint. And, in that realization comes true freedom!
Lack of trust does not undermine relationships, sin does. You see, if we truly understand the nature of man, we understand that we are capable of falling into sin at any moment in time--and so are the objects of our affection. Understanding that, we do not expect perfection from them, and we understand when they disappoint us that they are not necessarily doing so to deliberately harm *us* but because sin happens. (Now, there are those who are deliberately awful to us--and this can come from a spouse/significant other/etc., but that's another thing entirely.)
The key to this whole situation is a correct view of self--knowing that you are a sinner, and wholly dependent upon God for all things. He is first in our worship, our love, our service. We are totally incapable of true love for anyone outside of God's grace. So we must be willing to want for ourselves what God wants for us...and that is to draw closer to Him, to "acquire the Holy Spirit"-to use St. Seraphim's words. That's a big commitment. We must put that at the forefront of our minds, before our hopes for marriage, friendship, etc. So we set out on our path working on our own salvation, wanting nothing more than to please God. Any other attitude puts our self as the object of our worship, not God.
Then, when in the pursuit of this goal a man/woman enters into the picture, we have to ask ourselves quite seriously if this relationship is going to help us achieve our goal or deflect us off the path. That means asking tough questions, and being willing to accept the answers. Does this person have the same goal, are they seeking first the Kingdom of Heaven? If so, it may be that you will aid each other on your mutual journey. If not, run. If they are, then time, prayer, and wise counsel will help you decide on whether or not this is the one. And, if the time is not right for this to be your future spouse, does it remain a friendship that will draw you closer to your goal? If so, then allow yourself to gain the experience of it, being wary lest you enter into sin.
Of course, all this does not mean that good relationships do not require work--even our salvation requires ongoing attention. If we are neglectful, then we cannot expect things to magically hang together. You cannot have a right relationship with another person if you/they are neglectful of God, all things have to be kept in proper order.
Now you may ask what happens if I am in a relationship and I start wondering if the other person is remaining faithful? What if I feel they have betrayed me? What if the bank account mysteriously evaporates? Pray. Ask yourself what you're basing this perception upon. Do you have concrete proof, or are you allowing your self-indulgent imagination to run away with your thoughts? Then pray again. Does the one you love have a problem? Then you help them. You talk about what's happening. Pray together. Seek counsel as appropriate. And when you disappoint one another, you ask forgiveness, then pick up where you left off, walking along your path.
This is a true relationship, one that supports one another and bears a multitude of sins. You forgive them because God calls us to forgive as we have been forgiven. You seek forgiveness because you have failed.
Then you ask in another post:
If you tell a loved one that you love them, but nevertheless they are not worthy of your trust, would you be able to have a relationship which is more than just, let's say, internet buddies or friends or well-wishers? The other person could be quite offended that you consider them unworthy of your trust....
This is a loaded question in a way. Do you truly love them? Are you working to love them the way we have been commanded--without expectation, pride, or accounting of wrongs? If you do--or if you're working on that as you should, then you have a relationship with them. Now there are all kinds of relationships and you have to approach each a little differently. There are those who are exactly that to us, friends, well-wishers, and internet buddies, but it is our responsibility before God to treat them with true love as God has given to us.
In the practicalities of this, if you don't share the same beliefs with this "buddy" then you by definition cannot act in the same manner. In other words, you don't have the same level of intimacy with someone who is an unbeliever as you do with a believer. And if you are of differing faiths, you can't expect them to understand your mindset, so you avoid throwing potential bombs at them like "I love you, but no man is worthy of our trust." You simply act on your faith and God will take care of the rest.
However, if you are called to give an account of your faith, and this comes out by necessity, then you tell the truth in love and leave the consequences up to God.
Confidence and faith in self seems so utterly important. Self-confidence is perhaps something like a good self-in-God-awareness; something like knowing oneself. And if one does not know oneself (this is in Song of Songs), how can one love? Unfortunately for my logical processes, this makes faith in self foundational, and next thing I know, I find myself with the dilemma of having to handle two foundations: love and faith. Help!
When you're speaking about these matters to someone who is truly Orthodox, you have to switch gears, because the Orthodox mindset and all the other mindsets are diametrically opposed.
Confidence and faith in self is absolutely fatal to the true life in Christ. Yes, there is a knowledge of self--but what that points out to us is our absolute spiritual poverty and total dependence on God. To have faith in self is to say "I have the ability to think, reason, and act properly without God". To have faith in God is to say, I must pray and seek the Lord's wisdom to think, reason, and act in accordance with His will". What happens when we do this is that we talk a lot less, pull back the reins on our reactions to what happens around us, and act in a manner that will reflects God's love for all creatures.
We are God's creation and because we were created in His image, we have abilities that can, when used properly, can bring glory to God. Do we pride ourselves in that? No! They aren't of ourselves, they are the gift of God. We should, all the more be held accountable for their use. I am not confident in MY ability to do anything, I am confident that, when I am faithful to God in my life, that He will work in all things to my good. I may fall flat on my face, but if I do there will be a lesson in it. So I always have a little trepidition--and that's healthy. If I am constantly worrying about my performance, then it means there's something out of kelter in my relationship to God--and that's unhealthy.
Sound hard? It is. That's why we're called to pray without ceasing. That's why we should do nothing without asking God's blessing. That's why we must confess our sins and be held accountable for our actions. It's a whole lot of work...but our reward is the Kingdom of Heaven.
And, quite honestly, there isn't a person on here, being Orthodox, who doesn't fail at this on a daily basis. My brother or sister might fall, but in love I am called to lift them up and help them back on the path. I fall, and I must beg forgiveness. And there are positive examples and negative examples. It all comes with the territory.
I have probably said too much, I pray you will forgive me if I have offended you in any way.
Anna
I have probably said too much, I pray you will forgive me if I have offended you in any way.
Anna
Anna! Thank you ever and ever and ever so much!! You should 'talk' more! You have taught me much already!!
Thank you!
Mary
Effie Ganatsios
28-02-2008, 08:06 AM
Concerning lack of faith in our ability to accomplish something specific. I have found that even though before I am called upon to do something difficult, I have doubts about my ability to do this specific thing, if I pray beforehand and leave it all in God's hands, then He gives me the strength and the ability to do it.
I suffer more thinking about something beforehand than I do when I'm actually doing it. A very good motto for life is : Pray and then Just Do It. In her book, Mother Gabriela tells us that when people ask her how she endures walking such long distances, or wearing light clothes in winter, etc. she replies that God is taking care of her. Forgive me for perhaps misquoting but I'm typing from memory. She just left everything to God and it is truly amazing at just what a human is capable of. We are usually enslaved by our negative thoughts.
I'm no psychiatrist but I know from long observation of myself that our minds play tricks on us, and it is only now, after years of allowing my mind to control me that I am learning to control it.
Concerning trust of other people : No-one is perfect and we should not expect anyone to be. Not our family, not our friends. And especially not ourselves. Couples are sometimes separated for long periods of time. What about trust? It is just as easy for a person to betray you when you are near as it is when you are far apart - it all boils down to what kind of person he or she is. And friends will also betray you sometimes. You need to ask yourself how much you cherish your friendship with them and if it is worth saving. It helps to put yourself in your friend's position and this usually allows you to realize that perhaps you were also to blame.
Anna wrote :
"We are God's creation and because we were created in His image, we have abilities that can, when used properly, can bring glory to God. Do we pride ourselves in that? No! They aren't of ourselves, they are the gift of God. We should, all the more be held accountable for their use. I am not confident in MY ability to do anything, I am confident that, when I am faithful to God in my life, that He will work in all things to my good. I may fall flat on my face, but if I do there will be a lesson in it. So I always have a little trepidition--and that's healthy. If I am constantly worrying about my performance, then it means there's something out of kelter in my relationship to God--and that's unhealthy."
I agree completely with the above.
Everything in our lives comes back to how committed we are to God. We are God's creatures and are therefore worthy of the respect that we accord all God's creatures but
only if we allow God to function in our lives. And we must be realistic and acknowledge that we know perfectly well when we are acting on our own and when we commit our actions to God's care.
I wrote a reply last night, but I am not sure why it has not appeared here yet.
Will repost if it does not appear soon.
Anna,
you have not offended me. I actually think not much different from what you've written. But call it what you will--lack of faith in self, faith in a future disaster or in someone's future mistake--the point is that such faith in a future disaster (etc.) does not match an "I love you" and a collapse of the relationship. It does not make sense. It seems that the lack of faith (in whatever you want to call it) destroys love, or prohibits love to grow, and that love is not strong enough to overcome doubt, lack of trust, and it seems that trust and faith are more important than love.
Anna,
you have not offended me. I actually think not much different from what you've written. But call it what you will--lack of faith in self, faith in a future disaster or in someone's future mistake--the point is that such faith in a future disaster (etc.) does not match an "I love you" and a collapse of the relationship. It does not make sense. It seems that the lack of faith (in whatever you want to call it) destroys love, or prohibits love to grow, and that love is not strong enough to overcome doubt, lack of trust, and it seems that trust and faith are more important than love.
Dear Anya,
Look at it this way:
'Faith in a future disaster' - is simply a realistic view of life. The 'disasters' are small, in the beginning, and they get bigger as you get older. For example - what kind of 'disasters' can you expect when you're taking care of a baby? There's the disaster of stinky diapers. The disaster of food all over the table, floor and baby, there's the disaster of the baby staying up all night and crying for some unknown reason, etc. It would be very unrealistic, to expect the baby to be clean and cuddly all the time, and no one even expects such a thing!
But as the baby grows up, the disasters get bigger - baby learns to talk. Cute at first. Till the baby is actually talking back at you! Is it realistic to expect the child to be sweet and polite all the time? Do you only love a child who is perfect all the time?
Child keeps growing, and learns to talk properly and politely, at the same time, his vocabulary is much larger, so he can talk back more effectively. The Grown Child, will never be perfect, and will do things that cause pain. Sometimes little pains. Sometimes big. Sometimes just a lot of annoyance. But, Do I stop loving them? Do they stop loving me? So, when I tell my child: "I love you", all the while knowing full well that in a little while he's going to get on my nerves and cause me to wish I'd never met him, does that mean my "I love you" was a lie? I don't think so. In fact, knowing his weakness, and giving him room to fail, gives me more patience when he does fail, and it also helps me to meet his failures with compassion, rather than annoyance, which is what he needs at the moment of his failure.
In Christ,
mary.
Dear Mary,
This is not about a relationship between children. It's between adults, who can actually cease to be together because one of them is not reading--or rather living and feeling--what's going on here.
And if one of them does all of the above while the other one does not, then what? It is not also a matter of difference of perspectives. Except that the only thing that is left is just to accept God's will, and just to quench my bewilderment that love is not enough to keep people together or to think that people can love only so much. A sad conclusion I must say. That's why I thought the answer could be in lack of trust in self or who knows? perhaps lack of trust in God? or since one deals with love here--lack of self knowledge? (You remember that in Song of Songs, there's a reference to knowing oneself.)
It seems that the lack of faith (in whatever you want to call it) destroys love, or prohibits love to grow, and that love is not strong enough to overcome doubt, lack of trust, and it seems that trust and faith are more important than love.
Anya,
I'm a fuzzy-headed clod, to be certain, so I want to make certain I understand. I hear you saying that you're struggling with the idea that NOT to have faith/trust in someone is destructive or at least detrimental to a relationship; AND that love (as you understand it at present), of itself is not enough to overcome doubt, therefore faith and trust are by default more important than love.
I hope I have that correct, because this can be a difficult medium in which to understand the nuances of language and I do not wish to offend anyone, ever.
So, answering as if I DO understand you correctly:
While I understand that you feel this way, it seems that at the root of your thoughts you are wondering if this concept is consistent with a true Orthodox mindset, and the answer is no.Our Lord told his disciples: “This is my commandment, that ye love one another, as I have loved you.” John 15:12
What is love? There’s always the classic definition by St. Paul the Apostle in I Corinthians 13. If you read it, there’s a list of things it isn’t: the gifts of speaking in various languages or of prophecy; faith, almsgiving, and asceticism.
There’s a list of what love doesn’t do: It doesn’t envy, it is not prideful and self-promoting, it doesn’t behave rudely, it doesn’t think evil of another (keeping an account of their wrongs), it doesn’t seek its own way, it isn’t easily angered, and it doesn’t take pleasure in unrighteousness.
So what IS love? It is long-suffering, it rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things. (Notice what that is? It’s all the ways in which we are called relate to others when things aren’t going well.)
There’s nothing in there about trust. And the only faith mentioned is the faith that might move mountains and that’s faith in God. So what does it mean when it says “believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things’, if some where in there it isn’t implying trust?
St. John Chrysostom, in his homily on this chapter writes:
Now its power[of love] the Apostle here intimates, by what follows. For, “it hopeth all things,” saith he, “believeth all things, endureth all things.” What is, “hopeth all things?” It doth not despair,” saith he, “of the beloved, but even though he be worthless, it continues to correct, to provide, to care for him.”
“Believeth all things.” “For it doth not merely hope,” saith he, “but also believeth from its great affection.” And even if these good things should not turn out according to its hope, but the other person should prove yet more intolerable, it bears even these. For, saith he, it “endureth all things.”
“Love never faileth.”
Seest thou when he put the crown on the arch, and what of all things is peculiar to this gift? For what is, “faileth not?” it is not severed, is not dissolved by endurance. For it puts up with everything: since happen what will, he that loves never can hate. This then is the greatest of its excellencies."
You see, love recognizes the frailty of the one it loves, and chooses to love it any way. That is Orthodoxy.
Rattling about in my memory is a title “Love is Never Enough”. And it’s a popular sentiment in our day and age. The idea is that it’s not sufficient to have these deep feelings for another if there isn’t respect, faith, trust, accountability, etc., on the part of both parties. And almost every last one of us, Orthodox or not, gets caught up in that thought at one time or another. But it isn’t Orthodox—and as harsh as it may sound, it isn’t Christian.
Love, is enough. BUT only love that has its roots firmly planted in faith in God. And in Orthodoxy that is the only definition of love—there isn’t another. Love is not an emotion, or feeling, or construct of the human mind. Love is a gift from God. It is the ability to see your fellow man as God does. Deep feeling may/will arise from true love, as will complete and total devotion—just as Christ, in His love for the Father and for his creation was willing to endure all, even the cross. How could I ask any more than to love and be loved that deeply?
RichardWorthington
01-03-2008, 03:19 PM
I was going to reply earlier, but now I think the thread has gone quite out of my depth. So please bear in mind my splashing around might well not be some new water acrobatics but merely me trying to swim to the side to safety!
Quite a few times people have written saying that we should have no faith/trust/confidence in ourselves. However, there is a difference between humility and emotional destruction, between "Woe is me, the chief of sinners" and "I never can do anything right".
I am sure that almost everyone - including myself! - has doubts and insecurities about themselves. Pride can say not only, "Look at how great I am", but also "Woe is me, the chief of sinners". Therefore are such insecurities the result of pride? Perhaps to some extent, after all if we were to fully open ourselves up to God and to stop emotionally hiding from Him then He would naturally heal us; He is our heavenly Doctor.
However, to treat such things as ‘sinful’ which need weeding out with much vigour could be devastating. What would happen if there was a seed which blew into our garden and planted itself near the house. The seed then grew into a small sapling, and then in time into a small tree, and then after many years into a towering giant. Yet this tree was not a pleasant tree but a poisonous tree! It should have been uprooted at the start when it was small, but quite often we are unaware of its growth either through youth or inattentiveness to watching ourselves and so leave such things to grow larger.
So now we have a huge horrible tree by our house. Yet to pull it up by the roots - and what large roots it will have - could cause serious structural damage to the house! We can call in a tree surgeon to keep on trimming it back, but with the roots in place it will always grow back - and how it can grow! (Er .. metaphorically speaking, I think a normal tree dies when cut to the trunk.)
Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest …
Adam and Eve hid from God through pride and so did not want to come to Him; others hide from God out of deep painful wounds that are so painful to touch. The first type of hiding needs a rebuke, the second much tender love and gentleness:
… for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls
Matthew 11:28-29
It is not true that in all cases the Fathers say we should have no trust in ourselves: we are constantly reminded to have discernment. As St John Cassian writes (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf211.iv.iv.iii.xiii.html):
we are not to follow in the steps or embrace the traditions and advice of every old man whose head is covered with grey hairs, and whose age is his sole claim to respect, but only of those whom we find to have distinguished themselves in youth in an approved and praiseworthy manner, and to have been trained up not on self-assurance but on the traditions of the Elders
We are to test those who have ‘grey hairs’ (whether proverbial or real; instead of the term ‘grey hairs’ I prefer ‘long beards, black robes, and ecclesiastical titles’ …) to see if they really are properly distinguished. Because if not:
the subtle enemy uses their grey hairs to deceive the younger men, by a wrongful appeal to their authority, and endeavours in his cunning craftiness to upset and deceive by their example those who might have been urged into the way of perfection by their advice or that of others; and drags them down by means of their teaching and practice either into a baneful indifference, or into deadly despair.
So we are not to accept everyone in authority, but use our own judgement, having faith in ourselves. (Consider the posts in the thread "Thinking of becoming a nun" such as this (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=29546/lpost29546): "you ask and pray, I'm sure God will give you the strength to do anything your heart wants"): we have to have such confidence in God guiding us.) Of course, there is a cooperation between this discernment and laying aside all our thoughts to those who are wise. St John Cassian ends his chapter with the following words:
therefore never let the clumsiness or shallowness of one old man or of a few deter you and keep you back from that life-giving way, of which we spoke earlier, or from the tradition of the Elders, if our crafty enemy makes a wrongful use of their grey hairs in order to deceive younger men: but without any cloak of shame everything should be disclosed to the Elders, and remedies for wounds be faithfully received from them together with examples of life and conversation: from which we shall find like help and the same sort of result, if we try to do nothing at all on our own responsibility and judgment.
Regarding being crushed by so-called humility (quote: "If humility is what I see in those who try to teach me humility, then I don’t want to be humble!"), I once found in the Philokalia the kind words (St Mark the Monk, halfway through his century on no righteous by works; I also found other things in the Philokalia that terrified me!):
Humility consists, not in condemning our conscience, but in recognising God's grace and compassion
And St John Cassian’s famous 13th conference where he writes about grace and free will, which in turn can govern teaching on humility, is the bedrock of my life! Where would I be without it? At the end of it he writes (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf211.iv.v.iv.xviii.html),
Strengthened by this food (of his teaching) the blessed Chæremon prevented us from feeling the toil of so difficult a journey
And if it is asked - as I have asked myself - why the Almighty takes so long to heal us then remember this: in carefully removing the tree with its roots, the drains might need repairing, the electricity pylons need replacing, and so on. Christ is not just our Doctor, but also our entire Hospital!
God I write dangerously! I am so sorry if this hurts; it is intended to help. I have written much - so much (sorry!!). I also have felt the damages of life, and then been told to ‘learn humility’ instead of being built up. This is my understanding.
his words are more soothing than oil, yet they are drawn swords
Psalm 55:21
Please do not be harsh with me, I write out of insecurity too …
Richard
PS I'll just put my tail between my legs and leave before I am rebuked ...
God I write dangerously! I am so sorry if this hurts; it is intended to help. I have written much - so much (sorry!!). I also have felt the damages of life, and then been told to ‘learn humility’ instead of being built up. This is my understanding.
Please do not be harsh with me, I write out of insecurity too …
Richard
PS I'll just put my tail between my legs and leave before I am rebuked ...
Dear Richard,
Thanks for writing, although, I must admit, most of it was over my head. =) Personally, I think, humility is one of those things that can only be learned if you have a good example before you. It's not something that can be taught by words.
And till this point in my life, I have more examples of what humility is not, rather than what it is. However, I do see glimpses of it in everyone. Not everyone is humble in the same area. But, they are, a little bit here and a little bit there. Perhaps we can learn from everyone, if we are careful and pray a lot, for plenty of discernment.
Anya, forgive me for confusing you with children. I was just using children as a concrete example to show that grown ups, are also not perfect, and yet, they can be loved, imperfections and all, when we give each other room to fail. Not that I know how to do it, but that's what I think is the right thing to do.
Now, do you suppose you could summarize everything and pick out a few things that actually answered your original questions? I seem to have gotten lost in all the posts!
Please forgive me.
In Christ,
Mary.
Mary,
no need to apologize. I was just trying to clarify the situation because it's different when the problem of trust is between parents and children and between adults.
I think the thread is becoming confusing because there are two different questions which I had to post in separate threads.
All the answers are sinking in still, and I need some time to understand them as well.
Anna,
I do believe that love is the foundation in a relationship. Also, I think that we need to trust God much more than we trust ourselves or other people. When we do not trust the other person, I think, that this allows us to be even forgiving to them and to ourselves as well. But then again there needs to be some trust.... And I also think that we need to have and pray for discernment--I am glad that Richard finally pointed this out--in order to see which way to go. And I love and know the passages that you've given from Corinthians, and I love your thoughts on them.
The problem that I have is that the other person (also Orthodox) equates love and trust, and after saying "I love you," then leaves. The only explanation that was given is that of the fear in the future. Then I thought that perhaps the fear in the future is a symptom of trust in oneself, but I really do not know, because I am not the one that needs to or can do the work to find out.
My bewilderment is that even if there is love, love did not save the relationship.
I am not sure if i should go into more details in the forum. I hope you understand. And perhaps the lack of details will prevent further discussion. We shall see.
I want to thank you all for your time. I am rereading the posts and thinking about them, but I need some time for everything to sink in. If you have more thoughts, then please, do let me know, because this is a very puzzling situation.
However, to treat such things as ‘sinful’ which need weeding out with much vigour could be devastating. What would happen if there was a seed which blew into our garden and planted itself near the house. The seed then grew into a small sapling, and then in time into a small tree, and then after many years into a towering giant. Yet this tree was not a pleasant tree but a poisonous tree! It should have been uprooted at the start when it was small, but quite often we are unaware of its growth either through youth or inattentiveness to watching ourselves and so leave such things to grow larger.
So now we have a huge horrible tree by our house. Yet to pull it up by the roots - and what large roots it will have - could cause serious structural damage to the house! We can call in a tree surgeon to keep on trimming it back, but with the roots in place it will always grow back - and how it can grow! (Er .. metaphorically speaking, I think a normal tree dies when cut to the trunk.)
......
God I write dangerously! I am so sorry if this hurts; it is intended to help. I have written much - so much (sorry!!). I also have felt the damages of life, and then been told to ‘learn humility’ instead of being built up. This is my understanding.
Richard,
just to let you know I am thinking about the tree metaphor. I think it could be quite relevant to my case. But I really need some time. I am not sure which part of your response could be offensive yet :)
This is a question which is relevant to me, but not necessarily connected with the topic on faith in self. If you can, please, bear with me...
Anna,
you said in one of your posts that when one has doubts, one prays in order to receive illumination. But here's a situation with which someone else presents me, and it does not mean that it cannot happen to me as well. I am told: "I love you, but I prayed and we should not be together."
What's that all about?
Perhaps this is a discernment on the part of the person who prayed. But if love never ends, then this does not make sense. At least not to me.
Honestly, i think I have even tired some of you with my questions... at least confused you. But I am myself lost because what happens (happened) just does not make sense to me. I wish to stop thinking about it, but I find myself unable to go on, because one of the most important questions--the bedrock of my life!--is pretty much shattered.
On top of that, another way in which I am tested right now, is that I see friends from different denominations and religions, who seem to be having much easier time with figuring out love and all other stuff from life.
you said in one of your posts that when one has doubts, one prays in order to receive illumination. But here's a situation with which someone else presents me, and it does not mean that it cannot happen to me as well. I am told: "I love you, but I prayed and we should not be together."
What's that all about?
That's great wisdom on the part of the person who said "...we should not be together..."
If the example you cited above is in relation to two people wondering if they should get married or not, then it makes perfect sense! Not everyone is meant to be married, even if they're the kind of people that will be faithful to each other. Don't ask how that works, it makes no sense to me. I think some relationships are stronger if they remain as friendships, and will be totally destroyed if marriage enters the picture.
I suppose it would be very hard to discern the difference of which friendship will continue to grow if it goes into marriage, and which one will fizzle out... I wouldn't know how to tell the difference. But I do know that it's possible to do so. Mostly, it has to do with knowing yourself well enough...
in Christ,
mary
That's great wisdom on the part of the person who said "...we should not be together..."
Sorry, Mary. I do not think it's wisdom, especially when the preceding words were "I want to marry you." It is rather confusion, fear to open up, fear of commitment, lack of trust in self, and who knows what else, but not wisdom, at least not in my world. The sequence, was, in fact, a rather perverse version of veni, vidi, vici--I want to marry you. I love you. I am leaving. So much for conquering fears.
It recently occurred to me that even if you give 100% of yourself, it is even less than 50% toward the relationship, considering that some unknown percentage is God's job.
Effie Ganatsios
02-03-2008, 08:01 AM
Anya, in one of your posts you said that love was not enough to stop a person leaving.
Anya sweetie, over the years I have learnt - slowly and painfully - that we are not responsible for what other people do and say. Sometimes no matter what we do things don't turn out the way we want them to. We cannot force another person to act the way we want them to. We can only entrust the whole situation to God, with His help we can do whatever is in our power to make things easier, but we are not responsible for other people. This applies to our closest relatives, our families, as well.
I recently referred to this Ancient Greek saying to another member of this forum, and I feel that it might be useful here :
"Do not wish for things to happen the way you wish them to. To be happy, wish them to happen as they do."
This was a favourite saying of Mother Gavrilia's.
Anya you wrote : "Honestly, i think I have even tired some of you with my questions... at least confused you. But I am myself lost because what happens (happened) just does not make sense to me. I wish to stop thinking about it, but I find myself unable to go on, because one of the most important questions--the bedrock of my life!--is pretty much shattered.
On top of that, another way in which I am tested right now, is that I see friends from different denominations and religions, who seem to be having much easier time with figuring out love and all other stuff from life. "
Anya, first of all, you will recover. You need to grieve, something has died, but with God's help you will recover. As for trying to understand what has happened, don't. How can we ever know what is going on in someone else's mind? I personally have trouble discovering what my own true motives are sometimes. Someone says, I love you but I have prayed and we are not meant to be together. What can this mean? If this person is being sincere, then he is going through his own very difficult period.
As for friends from different denominations and religions seeming to have all the answers, don't even think this. No religion guarantees happiness in this life. No-one has
"figured it all out". And appearances frequently deceive. Something that makes some people seem happy is the fact that they pamper themselves, get what they want, and are happy for a short while. This is not true happiness but it has all the appearance of being so, at least as long as the "high" feeling continues.
If I were in your situation I would have a long talk with my spiritual father - actually a lot of long talks. You need to work through your feelings, talk about them, pray about them. Don't worry, you will get through this with God's help.
Effie
You see, Effie, I do not understand how love was not enough? I thought that it's not just enough. It's the basis, the foundation. But the facts from life are different.
If love between two people is not enough, to me it's the equivalent of saying that God is not enough. That's quite difficult for me to accept. That's why perhaps I am tempted to look at people from other denominations--whose God helps them through hard times at work, in their relationships... I am having a terrible time to just accept it without understanding it because love is very important.
Some terrible tree is removed from my garden, and, boy how it hurts! Thanks for the metaphor, Richard. I keep thinking about it.
Ah, hopefully I will overcome this ordeal, but I do need an answer, at least right now I feel that I do.
Anya, I also think that love is enough when one is willing. I do not think he deserves you; I do think he is not worthy of you if he followed the pattern of veni, vidi, vici.
However in the midst of all this try to forgive him. In the midst of all this try not to despair. In the midst of all this try to turn completely to God, entrust yourself in Him. See... it is important that we learn to understand that in this life NONE loves us like God does love each one of us. Trust that God has a better plan for you.
Paul Cowan
02-03-2008, 09:59 PM
Dear Anya,
I want to second what Effie and Nina have told you. Please do not confuse your fiance's actions with God's love. God IS Love. What does St. Paul say about love?
I Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.
Take it from someone who has hurt alot of people in the past, there are alot of emotions going through his head right now. Fear, anger, selfishness, confusion, despair, sence of dread, sence of freedom, hope, loss, mistrust, and many more. I have broken off relationships with alot less at stake than marriage.
His words,
"I love you, but I prayed and we should not be together."
really? Who told him this? I have "used" God in the past to get out of things too. I do not know him or his/ your situation, but I can see myself in his actions.
Have Faith in God. Do not put your trust in your own decisions or in anyone's elses. God will either bring him back around or will open a better door for you. Pray for God's will and wait and listen for the still quiet voice. As Effie said, you will recover. This too will pass. Take this time of Lent to prepare your heart and soul for the dread Judgement Day as we learned this morning.
As far as other denomintations' God helping them... I also used to put my trust in money, my job, my friends, my gods and though I may have appeared happy on the outside, I was full of dead men's bones to quote Jesus. I could lead a double life with the best of them. Don't let their externals fool you. They hurt as much if not more than you even if they are always laughing. We are free when not slaves to sin. They are happy because they are slaves to sin. You only see them for a short time every now and again. You do not see them 24/7 as you do yourself. They are not who they appear to be.
I think St. Ephraim the Syrian says alot about this. Another good book to read this Lent. I know online support is not much, but you do have people here who are growing in Christ with you together.
In Christ,
Paul
Dear Paul, thank you for your support. Every word counts even if it's not face to face.
His words, Quotation:
"I love you, but I prayed, and we should not be together."
really? Who told him this? I have "used" God in the past to get out of things too.
Ah, with this statement we go back to the initial topic of faith in self. In general, I do not think that he had faith in himself, but perhaps this is the only instant in which he decided to try his faith in himself, having confidence from his prayers.... Who knows?!
On another note, today there was a memorial service in the church, and I was thinking how come there is no service for the broken hearted. After all if something has died, it has to be buried (and if God resurrects it, so be it. So much greater the joy and the celebration. ) Perhaps the reasons for such a lack of prayers is because people did not use to date in 4th -- 6th c.
Paul Cowan
03-03-2008, 04:56 AM
Perhaps the reasons for such a lack of prayers is because people did not use to date in 4th -- 6th c.
Perhaps, but I don't think I would want anything to do with an arranged marriage either. How can anyone know how a child will turn out from the age of 4 or so? Often times these marriages were solely for the purpose of political peace or dominion. I can see where prayers were all the more necessary then for someone in a compassionless marriage of convenience.
Perhaps, but I don't think I would want anything to do with an arranged marriage either. How can anyone know how a child will turn out from the age of 4 or so?
Some arranged marriages happened when the persons involved were adults. Plus in the past the guy could not really approach the girl and ask her hand in marriage. He had to go to her parents first together with his parents and family to ask the hand of the girl for marriage before even talking to her. In our days there are many people that play matchmaker also setting up dates, or introductions for friends, family.
Effie:
Anya, in one of your posts you said that love was not enough to stop a person leaving.
Anya sweetie, over the years I have learnt - slowly and painfully - that we are not responsible for what other people do and say. Sometimes no matter what we do things don't turn out the way we want them to. We cannot force another person to act the way we want them to. We can only entrust the whole situation to God, with His help we can do whatever is in our power to make things easier, but we are not responsible for other people. This applies to our closest relatives, our families, as well.
I recently referred to this Ancient Greek saying to another member of this forum, and I feel that it might be useful here :
"Do not wish for things to happen the way you wish them to. To be happy, wish them to happen as they do."
This was a favourite saying of Mother Gavrilia's.
Dear Effie, you are so precious! Ever since I have joined this forum, reading your words is like a soothing balm...what a blessing you are to me.
Anya, I can only agree with what Effie has just said...and I will pray for your heartache, too. If it's one thing I've learned in my life, it's that I've wasted a LOT of time trying to figure OTHER people out...and trying to fix things. But the only thing I am capable of is walking with Christ. ...sometimes clinging to him through the storms.
May Christ grant you true strength as you rely upon Him in your weakness.
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