Foreign languages in American monasteries

[Robin Elizabeth]

Hi all.

I am curious about the use of foreign languages in some American monasteries.

Do Rocor monasteries use Russian as a working language in their life, or just as a liturgical language? Also, do Greek/American monasteries use Greek for just their liturgical life or for everyday communication?

I've visited several monasteries, but I've never visited a Rocor or Greek one. I'd like to experience both, but I have trouble with languages other than English.

[Paul Cowan]

I have found at Holy Archangels (Greek) in Kendalia, the monks speak Greek to each other unless in front of visitors where it is considered rude otherwise they speak English to all visitors unless they know them to be Greek speaking.

Paul

[Father Anthony]

I have found at Holy Archangels (Greek) in Kendalia, the monks speak Greek to each other unless in front of visitors where it is considered rude otherwise they speak English to all visitors unless they know them to be Greek speaking.

Paul
Like Paul, I have found that some communities like Jordanville and some of the communities that are in the Greek Archdiocese, the spoken language is generally Russian or Greek among members of that community depending on the make-up of the community and the primary language of the abbot/abbess. They do have those within the community that deal with guests and the public that are primary English speakers and can assist you.

Being that the monastery is their home, they have to feel at ease to communicate with each other in a common language, and to get the necessities of daily life accomplished. They are not trying to be rude, but have found it necessary for the time being to use whatever language. Much like homes of recent immigrants, were the spoken household language is one thing and the language for dealing with those outside may happen to be English. I hope this helps.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

[Silouan Howard]

I have found at Holy Archangels (Greek) in Kendalia, the monks speak Greek to each other unless in front of visitors where it is considered rude otherwise they speak English to all visitors unless they know them to be Greek speaking.

Paul

My spiritual father is at Holy Archangels and naturally I am there a lot and spend a lot of time with the brothers. They actually do not use much Greek outside the services, unless a pilgrim speaks only Greek. Some of the brothers there do not know much colloquial Greek (if any), only liturgical/Koine Greek. Believe it or not, there are also a lot of Russian pilgrims who are regular parishioners there.

[Father David Moser]

At Holy Trinity (Jordanville) Monastery, my experience was that the monks would first speak to me in Russian, but switch to English immediately upon seeing that I did not understand. The initial Russian may have something to do with the fact that I am a priest and so dressed basically no different than the monks and that I was living in the monastic quarters at the time.

Other North American monasteries in ROCOR such as Holy Cross (Wayne WVa) and All Merciful Savior are 100% English, both in the services and in daily life. So it all depends on the makeup of the monastic brotherhood.

Fr David Moser

[Paul Cowan]

Like Paul, I have found that some communities like Jordanville and some of the communities that are in the Greek Archdiocese, the spoken language is generally Russian or Greek among members of that community depending on the make-up of the community and the primary language of the abbot/abbess. They do have those within the community that deal with guests and the public that are primary English speakers and can assist you.

Being that the monastery is their home, they have to feel at ease to communicate with each other in a common language, and to get the necessities of daily life accomplished. They are not trying to be rude, but have found it necessary for the time being to use whatever language. Much like homes of recent immigrants, were the spoken household language is one thing and the language for dealing with those outside may happen to be English. I hope this helps.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Forgive me Father. I did not mean to say they were being rude by speaking Greek in front of people. But I felt they thought it to be rude for themselves to speak in a language delibertly excluding those near them to hear.

[Father Anthony]

Forgive me Father. I did not mean to say they were being rude by speaking Greek in front of people. But I felt they thought it to be rude for themselves to speak in a language delibertly excluding those near them to hear.

Dear Paul,

I did not take in that way at all or say that you were saying that. Some though do think when someone is speaking a foreign language in their presence, are insecure and feel that they are being made fun of or are being talked down upon. Most do not realize that they are visitors in another's home, and that this may be the way the home is run, with English being the secondary language. It comes from most Americans being unable to speak any secondary language unlike most cultures that promote it.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Father Anthony wrote:


Some though do think when someone is speaking a foreign language in their presence, are insecure and feel that they are being made fun of or are being talked down upon.


As the priest of a very bilingual (Russian/English) parish I would very much appreciate a discussion about this. I have noticed that if anything is likely to get people worked up it is language. Certainly there can be plenty about this which can be very petty. But on the other hand I have also noticed over time that many profound feelings are touched by language.

Language after all relates to one of the most important faculties we have- the ability to communicate. As an inherent part of this it also relates to one of the most intimate desires we have- the desire both to communicate with others and the desire to be understood by others.

In a one language parish this is challenge enough. But in many of our parishes where more than one language is the 'official' character this challenge becomes very complex.

In a word Fr Anthony is very correct that feeling ignorant when it comes to language can touch one of the deepest feelings we can have. Straight comprehension is only the beginning of the matter though. Deep matters such as acceptance are very important. To not be able to express oneself is a very difficult thing to deal with. It is especially frustrating since the inability or difficulty in learning a language seems more a technical/practical problem whereas what we want to communicate is innate. If we are not careful, from the frustration we feel about this situation we tend to blame those whom we are unable to communicate with. Here issues of vulnerability, feeling foolish and of one's human limitations come up. To feel that one does not have all the cards in ones hands is a difficult thing.

I wonder then what is the best way to deal with such a situation? First to recognize what our reactions to such a situation really consist of. Much of our problem is lack of humility but in a specific way we scarcely look at since we mostly consider we are in an abnormal situation. I wonder indeed if this is the root of the whole problem we face; that lack of humble recognition does not allow us that love by which such vulnerable situations are transformed.

Then of course we must also recognize the way in which we are called to live as Orthodox Christians amidst such a challenge. Here humility would come more into play than our normal reaction of trying to change outward conditions.

By the way- this also touches a theme I have tried to bring up here before. We speak of a universal one language situation as being inherently part of the 'solution' here for a North American church. However following the precedent the Church has followed during the past 2000 years the Church always works with the reality of those placed before it. Anything else no matter how ideal is to fall into an abstraction.

So the reality we often face in North America is a multi-language situation. Wherever mutual interaction of native speakers & those from the 'mother' country has been consciously encouraged this has given positive results- whether on an inter-parish or parish to parish level.

In any case this means that the situation we live in requires not a dismantling of one reality for another but rather a working with and purifying in Christ of the very reality we are in.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Robin Elizabeth]

Actually, the main reason I asked is because I wanted to know if the fact that I speak only English would prevent me from joining any of the convents. I don't mind foreign languages in the Church, it's just that I never had the ability to learn other languages well enough to converse.

[Father David Moser]

At the trapeza meal after liturgy in our parish, there is a single long table. On one end there is the "English conversation" and on the other is the "Russian conversation". The English side is "anchored" by older Russians who are as American as they are Russian - and maybe moreso - and the "Russian" side has no few American spouses (from mixed cultural marriages). I sit in the middle and bounce both ways as appropriate. Everyone gets along fine - no one seems to be overly offended or excluded (although I occasionally get some converts who say something like "why don't they learn to speak English - they live in America! or some such right wing drivel) But overall we know who speaks what languages and everyone manages to get along with everyone else with no hard feelings.

Fr David Moser

[Marie A.]

Actually, the main reason I asked is because I wanted to know if the fact that I speak only English would prevent me from joining any of the convents. I don't mind foreign languages in the Church, it's just that I never had the ability to learn other languages well enough to converse.

Hi Robin Elizabeth,
I've visited a couple of Greek monasteries of Geronda Ephraim. From what I understand one must learn Greek if one enters one of these monasteries. I met a couple of moms of young women who had recently entered his monasteries. One was an American convert and she is in the process of learning Greek.
Hope this helps.
In Christ,
Marie

[Herman Blaydoe]

Actually, the main reason I asked is because I wanted to know if the fact that I speak only English would prevent me from joining any of the convents. I don't mind foreign languages in the Church, it's just that I never had the ability to learn other languages well enough to converse.

There may be many reasons not to become a member of a particular monastery. That is why it is important to spend some time at several. Not only are you evaluating the monastery, but they are also evaluating you, to see if you "fit in" to their particular community. There might not be a match for many reasons, none of them reflecting badly on you or them.

Herman

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

At the trapeza meal after liturgy in our parish, there is a single long table. On one end there is the "English conversation" and on the other is the "Russian conversation". The English side is "anchored" by older Russians who are as American as they are Russian - and maybe moreso - and the "Russian" side has no few American spouses (from mixed cultural marriages). I sit in the middle and bounce both ways as appropriate. Everyone gets along fine - no one seems to be overly offended or excluded (although I occasionally get some converts who say something like "why don't they learn to speak English - they live in America! or some such right wing drivel) But overall we know who speaks what languages and everyone manages to get along with everyone else with no hard feelings.

Fr David Moser


Gradually over time in our parish a most wonderful thing has begun to occur at meals after the Liturgy. Russian and English speakers, instead of sitting separately, sit together. The conversation goes back & forth freely between English & Russian according to who is being spoken to as much as or even more than according to who is speaking.

This is a wonderful thing to watch but I do not think it can be planned. More it has to be an attitude that people adopt over time once they have gotten over their fears of not being understood. This sort of thing is always tentative but it is a wonderful thing in action and helps the spirit within the parish tremendously.

It also solves many of the rightful concerns we have about the place of language within the Orthodox Church.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mary]

This is a wonderful thing to watch but I do not think it can be planned. More it has to be an attitude that people adopt over time once they have gotten over their fears of not being understood. This sort of thing is always tentative but it is a wonderful thing in action and helps the spirit within the parish tremendously.

It also solves many of the rightful concerns we have about the place of language within the Orthodox Church.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

I met an Eritrean Lady in a parish I visited in CO. I thought she was Ethiopian, and went to speak to her in Amharic, and found she couldn't speak it. She also couldn't speak English. She was a lovely old grandma and she was visiting her children, all of whom could speak English. We used sign language - not the real kind, but the random kind - and single words repeated endlessly (as if saying it often enough would suddenly make them understand!) in order to communicate. It worked. But mostly because, she was the most loving woman I've ever met. She was just happy that I even tried to talk to her and she beamed on me, like she was all sunshine. She brought her children over, to introduce them to me. I took mine over to introduce them to her. It didn't bother her at all when I talked to the rest of her family, she watched us interacting, and her smile just got bigger.

I think she was very well able to express to me that she loved me. =) And the same thing happened at a Parish in PA where most of them spoke Arabic. The priest knew English. But he was this nice grandfatherly type of person, and he didn't say a word, he just watched me talk and chatter. And when I stopped for a breath, he said a few words, with the biggest smile - and, yes, he was also beaming like sunshine - he was actually able to paralyze my tongue because I didn't want to lose the moment.

I hope I learn how to beam on people! Cool trick. =)

Mary.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Your post Mary- along with others her from Frs Anthony & David- get to the heart of what I was trying to raise as a question yesterday.

From experience I would say that much of our sense of language within the Church comes from personal encounter and then gets projected outwards becoming part of the 'language question'. In essence what began as an issue which touches personal relationships within parish life is turned into a theoretical issue about the place of language within the Church as a whole. Not that these two do not connect with each other- they do. It is just that when we follow the above dynamic- the personal shifting into the theoretical- we follow that time worn path of more personal issues being completely overlooked.

In truth what drives most of us in this issue is fear, embarrassment and frustration. It is difficult to cut oneself off from that prime vehicle through which we attain acceptance & validation in our society. If some question my use of such contemporary words- especially 'validation'- I do it for a reason, admitting its negative & largely selfish meaning. After all there is a reason why we, especially in North America, treasure being a one-language society.

Being within the Orthodox Church however directly challenges this. Which is especially challenging since we are the heart land of defining everything by the criterion of ourselves; and also because it could be correct that we are the first Orthodox who have to face a multi-language environment in order to more deeply enter into the Church's reality. This last fact, considering who we are and where we are, is almost ironic. Or at least it provides a very important lesson.

The lesson I think is that unless we absolutely insist on denying the reality of those whom God puts before us we are basically put into a situation that asks us to continually go beyond ourselves. This especially touches those areas fundamental to our culture in which language is a marker of the right of self characterization and self-determination.

So far Fr Ephraim's policy on language within his monasteries has been either criticized or accepted. Little effort though has been made to spiritually comprehend why an Elder would ask his spiritual children to half abandon their own language for that which he surely knows is very foreign. Why spiritually would he ask this of these particular people of this particular time & place?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Silouan Howard]

Hi Robin Elizabeth,
I've visited a couple of Greek monasteries of Geronda Ephraim. From what I understand one must learn Greek if one enters one of these monasteries. I met a couple of moms of young women who had recently entered his monasteries. One was an American convert and she is in the process of learning Greek.
Hope this helps.
In Christ,
Marie

Just to clarify, they ask those entering the monasteries to learn the liturgical greek so as to be more able to participate in the services, but not modern colloquial greek for everyday conversation, etc.

[Nina]

So far Fr Ephraim's policy on language within his monasteries has been either criticized or accepted. Little effort though has been made to spiritually comprehend why an Elder would ask his spiritual children to half abandon their own language for that which he surely knows is very foreign. Why spiritually would he ask this of these particular people of this particular time & place?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Exactly. Why? <- this is a rhetorical question since I do not need convincing.

P.S Although for fairness' sake and for the sake of this thread I must add that in the monasteries of Elder Ephraim I have visited, I have freely communicated in both Greek and English. I have mentioned before that my non-Greek fiance has had no problem communicating perfectly there. In Canada there was even a nun who could not speak Greek at all (however she told me she was learning -she had converted). These are forced memories, since the only thing I freely remember is their love. Some did not smile much but the purity of their heart was coming through from their faces.

[Robin Elizabeth]

"Just to clarify, they ask those entering the monasteries to learn the liturgical greek so as to be more able to participate in the services, but not modern colloquial greek for everyday conversation, etc."

That would make things easier. To learn enough Greek to make sense of the services would be much less challenging then trying to learn how to hold a conversation in Greek. In fact, I've recently become aware (since joining a Greek parish) of how difficult it is to sing Byzantine chant tones well in English. The tones and English words just don't fit well - you have to contort one or the other and it doesn't seem to work out well. Maybe that's one reason the GO monasteries keep the services in Greek. Who knows!

By the way, what is the difference between liturgical Greek, New Testament Greek, and modern Greek?

[Mary]

Exactly. Why? <- this is a rhetorical question since I do not need convincing.


Oh Man! I do so like answering rhetorical questions! Now you went and ruined it for me!

[Nina]

Oh Man! I do so like answering rhetorical questions! Now you went and ruined it for me!

That is why I wrote that and with an arrow, because I know you better than you know yourself. :P

P.S And thank God, I am not a man! :)

[Rick H.]

P.S And thank God, I am not a man! :)




But if you were a man Nina, I would certainly hope that you would be a manly man! ;)

I wonder if I am risking a WUI here while writing under the influence of NyQuil during the day?

Oh well, "I must be off" ;)

[Nina]

But if you were a man Nina, I would certainly hope that you would be a manly man! ;)

I wonder if I am risking a WUI here while writing under the influence of NyQuil during the day?

Oh well, "I must be off" ;)

If I were a man, I would have wanted to be like my Christ.

[Rick H.]

Well said.

[Nina]

Well said.

I just have a problem when people addressing me say 'oh man' 'oh boy'. Why do people do that here? And if a female says it is unbecoming in my opinion.

[Rick H.]

I just have a problem when people addressing me say 'oh man' 'oh boy'. Why do people do that here? And if a female says it is unbecoming in my opinion.


I think it is an American expression in some parts of the country. I know down in Cajun country you will hear the word "man" about every three words, if not every other words, so you better not go down there! :)

[Nina]

I think it is an American expression in some parts of the country. I know down in Cajun country you will hear the word "man" about every three words, if not every other words, so you better not go down there! :)

Thanks for the explanation - I thought it is an interjection. I hear it everywhere I go! Maybe it is time to start proclaiming awareness that one can't say 'oh man' 'oh boy' to a female. I simply dislike it. Sorry.

[Silouan Howard]

Thanks for the explanation - I thought it is an interjection. I hear it everywhere I go! Maybe it is time to start proclaiming awareness that one can't say 'oh man' 'oh boy' to a female. I simply dislike it. Sorry.

How about 'you guys" ?

[Nina]

How about 'you guys" ?

:) It is funny when I hear a female saying that to a group of females. If there are also men in the group I would assume it is ok, but still.

I never hear men saying 'you guys'.

[Silouan Howard]

:) It is funny when I hear a female saying that to a group of females. If there are also men in the group I would assume it is ok, but still.

I never hear men saying 'you guys'.

Well, here in Texas we just say y'all, so its gender neutral. :)

[Nina]

Well, here in Texas we just say y'all, so its gender neutral. :)

:) Yes and I love it y'all!

[Mary]

All masculine pronouns are semi-neutral, because they also include the feminine.

"Lover of all mankind" (Do I hear an echo - "and all womankind too"?)
The epistles are addressed to "Brethren"; does that exclude the sistren?

It's only political correctness that has inspired the separation so now you have to say both: him/her; he/she; etc, all the time, because whichever one you don't say, feels automatically excluded!

[Nina]

feels automatically excluded!

I want to feel excluded from the male gender. I am happy and satisfied that God created me the way He did. And it is not that I need a special treatment, or recognition for being a female. I use also expressions 'God saved Man' and the like, but this is totally different.

[Mary]

I want to feel excluded from the male gender.

You don't have to feel it. You already are excluded! I was at a monastery this morning. I didn't know it would take me just 10 minutes to walk there! A Russian women's monastery. Only one of the nuns seemed capable of speaking in English. I was early, but I stayed for a Divine Liturgy. And while I watched the nuns walking into the Church and venerating the icons, I realized that from behind, you can't tell if they're men or women! Especially the senior nuns, who wear the exact same thing on their heads like men do.

For some reason, it bothered me. I decided I'll never become a nun because I don't want to be dressed like a monk!

[Silouan Howard]

For some reason, it bothered me. I decided I'll never become a nun because I don't want to be dressed like a monk!

The monastics live the angelic life which includes rising above gender as the angels themselves are gender neutral.

[Nina]

You don't have to feel it. You already are excluded!

Giggles... I was just replying to your:


because whichever one you don't say, feels automatically excluded!

Since there are women who feel that way although they are excluded automatically by merit of being a female. I think that lots of bad has come into our societies because of those feelings. That is why women often, behave like men, dress like men, eat like men, drink like men, dance like men and so on. Feminism :P


I was at a monastery this morning. I didn't know it would take me just 10 minutes to walk there! A Russian women's monastery. Only one of the nuns seemed capable of speaking in English. I was early, but I stayed for a Divine Liturgy. And while I watched the nuns walking into the Church and venerating the icons, I realized that from behind, you can't tell if they're men or women! Especially the senior nuns, who wear the exact same thing on their heads like men do.

For some reason, it bothered me. I decided I'll never become a nun because I don't want to be dressed like a monk!

LOL

K.

[Mary]

The monastics live the angelic life which includes rising above gender as the angels themselves are gender neutral.


If the goal is to become like angels and become neutral gendered, the Why did God create man and woman? It's too confusing. He could've just made us all men or all women. That would cut all problems in half! =)

Porcupine.

[Silouan Howard]

If the goal is to become like angels and become neutral gendered, the Why did God create man and woman? It's too confusing. He could've just made us all men or all women. That would cut all problems in half! =)

Porcupine.

Simple..to procreate. And I dont think homosexual couples make babies, so that wouldnt work :)

[Effie Ganatsios]

"By the way, what is the difference between liturgical Greek, New Testament Greek, and modern Greek?

Robin below is the beginning of a simple sentence from Acts 21:26

Then Paul took the men and the next day....

New Testament Greek :
τοτε ο Παυλος παραλαμβων τους ανδρας τη εχομενη ιμερα

Tote o Paulus paralambon tous andras ti ehomeni imera

Liturgical Greek :

Τοτε ο Παυλος επηρε την επομενην ημεραν τους τεσσαρας ανδρας......

Tote o Paulus epire tin epomenin imeran tous tessaras (four) andras...

Colloquial Greek :

Τοτε ο Παυλος πηρε τους αντρες kai την επομενη μερα.....

tote o Paulos pire tous andres ke tin epomeni imera........


As you can see there are some slight differences. I haven't included the accents above the words but I don't think that it is necessary - besides it's quite difficult for me to do.

I used my husband's copy of the New Testament which has the New Testament Greek on the first half of the page and the Liturgical Greek on the other. There are modern Greek translations of the New Testament of course, but most people prefer the more traditional wording of liturgical Greek. Sort of like the St. James version of the bible compared to the English Standard version. Only a little more difficult.

Effie

You might also find the information here interesting :

http://www.answers.com/topic/greek-language

[Janice Chadwick]

Hi Robin Elizabeth,
I've visited a couple of Greek monasteries of Geronda Ephraim. From what I understand one must learn Greek if one enters one of these monasteries. I met a couple of moms of young women who had recently entered his monasteries. One was an American convert and she is in the process of learning Greek.
Hope this helps.
In Christ,
Marie

Two of my priest's 4 children are monastics in Geronda Ephraim's monastaries, and they have had to learn Greek. His son is at St. Anthony's in Arizona and one of his girls is at St. John the Forerunner's in WA. Robin, as an encouragement, Fr. said that the one at St. John's was the one that had the most difficulty learning foreign languages. She speaks Greek fluently now. As an aside, any women out there wanting good lotions and soaps, St. John's has a good line of products that they make and sell. I tried some because Matushka always brings some back when they go to visit their daughter. Fr. conducts services while he's there and Matushka usually helps the nuns package their soaps and lotions.