Proper worship and heavenly worship

[Justin Farr]

Apparently I have a misunderstanding. I've always thought that the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom resembled extremely closely the Heavenly Liturgical Worship. So I always thought, assumed, or some such, that heavenly worship would be like the St. John Chrysostom DL. However, with the recent thought with the Western Orthodox with their different liturgy and organs, and the Ethiopian Orthodox with their drums... I'm starting to think I am mistaken in my thoughts.

So are any of the various Orthodox liturgies anywhere close to the form of Heavenly Worship?

Will there be instruments in Heavenly Worship?

Just when I start thinking I understand so much, I realize how much I don't understand in the slightest.

But the Psalter says:
Praise Him for His mighty acts;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness!

Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet;
Praise Him with the lute and harp!
Praise Him with the timbrel and dance;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with clashing cymbals!

Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.

Praise the LORD!

.... But at the same time, if I would have discovered Orthodoxy with any of that, I would have turned away because it doesn't seem ancient. I don't know. It's really been eating away at me lately, and I am just so confused.

Is it that there is one true doctrine, but MANY ways of worship? I don't get it at all

[Nina]

. So I always thought, assumed, or some such, that heavenly worship would be like the St. John Chrysostom DL.

I do not know the other Liturgies that you mention since I have no expereince about them. But I know that St. Chrysostom is actually in Heaven, and St. Basil is there and so on. Since they are in Heaven it means something.

[Justin Farr]

If I am not mistaken, we use a different liturgy one a few select days of the year.

But, for example, it is common for Western Rite Orthodox Christians to use the Liturgy of St. Tikhon (but I don't think Tikhon was involved anywhere, but... lol)

[Nina]

If I am not mistaken, we use a different liturgy one a few select days of the year.

Yes. That is why I mentioned St. Chrysostom, St. Basil etc.


But, for example, it is common for Western Rite Orthodox Christians to use the Liturgy of St. Tikhon (but I don't think Tikhon was involved anywhere, but... lol)

So what is the ellipsis supposed to mean? What is it because I honestly do not understand. Was St. Tikhon with the Western Rite?

[Olga]

St Tikhon of Moscow gave his blessing for the use of a particular western rite liturgy which was tweaked to conform with Orthodox doctrine. It was intended that this liturgy could be used in places where the Byzantine liturgies were felt to be too "different" or "confronting" to people not of Greek, Slavic, etc background, in the hope that it would draw them more easily to Orthodoxy. History shows it was not a resounding success.

[Herman Blaydoe]

So are any of the various Orthodox liturgies anywhere close to the form of Heavenly Worship?

Will there be instruments in Heavenly Worship?

The Orthodox Church looks to Revelations as its model of heavenly worship. Instruments don't get much mention.


Just when I start thinking I understand so much, I realize how much I don't understand in the slightest.

But the Psalter says:

Praise Him for His mighty acts;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness!
Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet;
Praise Him with the lute and harp!
Praise Him with the timbrel and dance;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with clashing cymbals!
Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD!

Perhaps King David isn't describing Heavenly worship, nor is he referring to formal corporate worship, in that I do not believe that trumpets, harps, lutes, timbrels, stringed instruments, flutes or cymbals were ever part of formal Temple worship.

Remember, we are allowed to celebrate the Lord outside of Church as well...


.... But at the same time, if I would have discovered Orthodoxy with any of that, I would have turned away because it doesn't seem ancient. I don't know. It's really been eating away at me lately, and I am just so confused.

The Orthodox Church took liberally from the Jewish traditions of its first members, the people who gave us the Psalms in the first place.


Is it that there is one true doctrine, but MANY ways of worship? I don't get it at all

Why not? Are there not many ways of communicating? Are there not many languages and cultures? Do we all listen to exactly the same music? Are there not differences between Russian Orthodoxy and Greek Orthodoxy, but are they not still Orthodoxy? This, to me, is simply a wondrous manifestation of the Truth of Orthodoxy, in that despite differences in culture, geography, language, and time, we all still believe the same things, as opposed to say, Protestantism, where despite similarities in culture, the same language, and relatively contiguous geography, so many differences of opinion as to who Christ actually is abound...

The same Truth can, indeed, be expressed in different manners, but we do have to exercise due diligence to ensure that it is, in fact, the same Truth. This is why we have bishops so that the people of God choose with discernment what is appropriate and what is not, for worshipping God as a people.

[Nina]

Remember, we are allowed to celebrate the Lord outside of Church as well...



There needs to be an Antimision for that.

Is it OK to have an Orthodox marriage ceremony by the seaside?

I would imagine that there might be Orthodox people (at least here) that might want also to know if they can get married while jumping with a parachute from an airplane, or while scuba-diving and so on.


St Tikhon of Moscow gave his blessing for the use of a particular western rite liturgy which was tweaked to conform with Orthodox doctrine. It was intended that this liturgy could be used in places where the Byzantine liturgies were felt to be too "different" or "confronting" to people not of Greek, Slavic, etc background, in the hope that it would draw them more easily to Orthodoxy. History shows it was not a resounding success.

Thank for this Olga.

[Herman Blaydoe]

There needs to be an Antimision for that.

Only if you are celebrating the Eucharist. There are other ways to worship (celebrate) our Lord outside of the Eucharist. I was specifically referring to informal, rather than formal, praise, like in singing folk songs outside Church (i.e. Christmas carols and the like). Please excuse my impreciseness.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

There needs to be an Antimision for that.

Is it OK to have an Orthodox marriage ceremony by the seaside?

I would imagine that there might be Orthodox people (at least here) that might want also to know if they can get married while jumping with a parachute from an airplane, or while scuba-diving and so on.


A proper setting for the services is an important question.

The most straight-forward rule concerns the Liturgy which needs to be served on an antimins (antimension). This has an icon on it of Christ being placed into the sepulcher and prepared for burial. He is shown surrounded by several of His disciples both men & woman. What most makes this an antimins is that it must contain relics.

Most times Liturgy is served before an altar with this antimins on it. However this is not always the case. In certain situations- eg starting a mission, visiting a remote area- and with the bishop's blessing- Liturgy may be served without an actual Altar. A suitable table for example can be used.

But in every case antimins must be used. I have even heard this rule applied in the extreme situation of a prison camp in communist Romania where Liturgy was served on the living body of a believing prisoner.

Apart from this I would say that suitability is the most important criterion for where services are done. Most times of course they are done in the church itself.

But in other situations services can be done elsewhere. Memorial services can be done at the cemetery. I have done baptisms of babies at their home several times where the church in winter was too cold. Many of us have done emergency baptisms in hospitals- usually these are only partial and need to be completed afterwards in the church if the child still lives.

As for getting married while dropping out of an airplane: although this may be a prophetic image for some marriages we need to have a more sober setting for our services than this. Anyway since the service takes about 45 minutes or so you'd need quite a drop to fit it all in. And how would the crowns be held?!

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

Not to mention eating the bread and drinking the wine, and walking round the Gospel book table.

[Nina]

As for getting married while dropping out of an airplane: although this may be a prophetic image for some marriages we need to have a more sober setting for our services than this. Anyway since the service takes about 45 minutes or so you'd need quite a drop to fit it all in. And how would the crowns be held?!

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Thank you for reinforcing. Since we often hear (and see) that everything goes. And I just think this spirit should not be allowed in Orthodoxy.

P.S I have actually seen such weddings!!! Not Orthodox until now thank God!

[Father David Moser]

There needs to be an Antimision for that.

I don't think Herman was referring to the services of the Church, but rather alluding to the fact that we can and should glorify God in all times, in all places, in all ways. We don't need an antimins for such worship, only for the celebration of the Divine Liturgy.



Is it OK to have an Orthodox marriage ceremony by the seaside?


The Sacrament of Holy Matrimony should be celebrated in the Church surrounded by the saints. If you wish to have a reception following by the seaside (or scuba diving or sky diving or whatever), then that would be wonderful, but the wedding itself belongs in the Church.

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

The Sacrament of Holy Matrimony should be celebrated in the Church surrounded by the saints. If you wish to have a reception following by the seaside (or scuba diving or sky diving or whatever), then that would be wonderful, but the wedding itself belongs in the Church.

Fr David Moser

Father, no. The question is not about my wedding. I was hinting at something else because of the things that are said in general.

P.S In regards to my wedding my dream is to get married inside the church at the monastery of St. Katherine in Sinai. I never wanted to get married outside the walls of the Church. :) And my spiritual father already suggested me to go to Africa to get married. However God willing. We will see what happens.

[Andreas Moran]

I thought monasteries didn't do weddings. The one here certainly doesn't, nor, indeed, any baptisms/chrismations.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

Please can we try to keep this new thread on the topic its was created for, namely the (very interesting) question of the relationship to heavenly worship and the earthly. Justin asked specifically about the understanding that the worship of the Church (in e.g. the Divine Liturgy) mirrors the worship of God in heaven, and then raised the question as to what a variety of different liturgical rites means to this understanding (i.e., what does it mean to say that heavenly worship is mirrored in rites that are quite different). This is a very good question and interesting topic, but let's be careful not to turn it into just another thread on a variety of rites and services.

Many thanks,

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Robert Hegwood]

Dear Justin,

With regard to instrumental music and Orthodox Worship I have been taught that the instruments we see referenced in OT worship were permitted only in the outer court, whereas the worship of the inner court was carried out with the human voice and to a lesser degree the little bells that hemmed the high priest's garments. Since Orthodox Worship is the worship of the inner court and not the outer court (we are a nation of priests and kings) only the unaccompanied human voice is permitted.

With regard to the drums of the Ethiopians, the Blagovest site has some interesting relevant information. They are the african expression of the bell/semadrone tradition in the Church. The high sounding cymbals you read about in the Psalms were actually flared tubular hand bells that were struck together. Basically big hand bells. In the early church calls to worship were made by striking a plank with a musical tone...sort of a giant one note xylophone. This is still used in the Church today especially in places like muslim lands where church bells are not allowed. The semandron as it moved north out of the middle east sometimes became a metal bar with a good tone. Further north the bars sometimes became flat metal plates. When arranged together by size and tonality you get what is still preserved in Russia as kind of poor church bell system called the "Bilo"...which is actually quite beautiful in its own right. The plates in time when permantantly mounted curved back around into bells merging with the big hand bell tradition which gave birth to the church bells and bell ringing styles that are common throughout what used to be Christendom. But the Semandron did not just move north, it moved south too and and in subsaharan Africa it merged with their drumming traditions so that in Ethiopian churches the drums function liturgically like bells do in northern Orthodox tradition.

The uniting feature of bells, symandrones and drums are that these are percussive instruments and are not used to carry melodies and the like. And except for the Ethiopian tradition they tend to be located outside...or if not completely outside then on the peripheries of the Temple.

Organs originated (harmonium) to add interlude entertainment at Roman chariot races...much like organs at american baseball games today. They, like the piano can perhaps be useful in a practice/training situation to teach a melody or harmony but the Orthodox Church has historically not found them appropriate for our corporate worship....which theologically expresses the worship of the inner courts.

Also as a footnote let me add that I have encountered some who say that various saints and monastics taught that even the instruments of the outer court in the time of Israel were not preferred but were merely a concession to human weakness. If we recall Genesis the first human use of musical instruments is referenced to Tubal-Cain who was not n the godly line of Seth...of course to be fair something of it must have caught on since using musical instruments apparently survived the flood...and it seems Tubal's lineage did not.