View Full Version : Happiness in heaven, in knowledge of those suffering in hell?
Cristina Novakovic
12-03-2008, 10:06 PM
This sounded strange to me as well. No, I'm not asking about the kinds of "fun activities" in Heaven. I was just wondering about our inner peace.
So, the idea is that those who go to heaven will have eternal peace and happiness. Now, my question is the following: how can they really have that when they know that some of their brothers or sisters are suffering in hell during this time? How are they supposed to forget about them or ignore the fact or just make peace with the thought that their relatives deserved the punishment?
In this life, the death of a close friend or of a relative has a terrible effect on us. But, still, we can be assured in our faith that there will be eternal life. What happens then when we know that the eternal life will be one of sorrow for people we love?
Andreas Moran
13-03-2008, 02:00 AM
This question has special relevance to (a) people like me who have no relatives who were religious let alone Orthodox, and (b) those Russians and other East Europeans who had older relatives who lived in communist times, were not, perhaps, even baptised and who may have had sins such as abortions (which was common for women in Soviet times). And - looking at things from the opposite position of Cristina's - will I, in my torment, envy those I know and love who will be up aloft?
This sounded strange to me as well. No, I'm not asking about the kinds of "fun activities" in Heaven. I was just wondering about our inner peace.
So, the idea is that those who go to heaven will have eternal peace and happiness. Now, my question is the following: how can they really have that when they know that some of their brothers or sisters are suffering in hell during this time? How are they supposed to forget about them or ignore the fact or just make peace with the thought that their relatives deserved the punishment?
In this life, the death of a close friend or of a relative has a terrible effect on us. But, still, we can be assured in our faith that there will be eternal life. What happens then when we know that the eternal life will be one of sorrow for people we love?
Do the Just recognize those in Hell? If a mother, for example, has a child, and she goes to Paradise. And her child to Hell. Will the mother see the child in Hell? If she does, will she not suffer? And if she does, will Paradise not be Hell?
Yes! The Just remember, they know those in Hell. But as God Himself does not feel sorry for those in Hell, neither do the Just. They are at one with God. They become impassive, like God (Saint Gregory the Dialogist).
They recognize now that they are being justly punished. A mother has a child, a sinner, a wastrel, a criminal, a robber. And the child is put in prison. Then the mother, because of her great disappointment in the child, will not be upset deep down, but will rather be relieved. Precisely because her child will have deserved to go to prison! Something similar, but to an incomparably greater extent, happens in the next life. The mother recognizes that her child is being punished justly. And is not upset. It is as if it is not her child!... pp. 80-81 After Death by Archim. Vasilios Bakogiannis
Andreas Moran
13-03-2008, 12:47 PM
Seems very harsh to me. 'Love could not bear that', said St Silouan.
Seems very harsh to me. 'Love could not bear that', said St Silouan.
Are you saying that existence of Hell is harsh?
Andreas Moran
13-03-2008, 01:01 PM
Are you saying that existence of Hell is harsh?
No - I'm saying that for the blessed in heaven to look down on those in torment and dispassionately say, 'you're getting your just deserts' doesn't fit my idea of love.
No - I'm saying that for the blessed in heaven to look down on those in torment and dispassionately say, 'you're getting your just deserts' doesn't fit my idea of love.
How does the existence of Hell fit your idea of love?
PS. Just to make sure:
Hell is not created by God. We who sin condemn ourselves even in this life. However if we remain unrepentant we condemn ourselves for eternity.
Metropolitan Heirotheos says that the sinners will experience the love of God also. However they will expereince the burning effect of it. The righteous will expereince the love of God in a different way. The righteous will be in such a delightful state in Heaven that even Fathers say they can not express in words. Because the presence of God, His love and grace, the divine knowledge the righteous will acquire and everything else will be a bliss and they will never be satiated. In this delight they will be aware about someone who distanced himself from God, but this will not be a source of sorrow because they will be in the place where "there is no sorrow". There will be many things that God has prepared and which are a mystery and which we can not comprehend from now, however in order to grasp the idea (of how one does not feel sorrow when a loved one is suffering in Hell), one must read about the joy of Heaven and being in God's presence. Also about the sinner who dies unrepentant and who departs further and further from God, since the word used in Greek when God says "depart from Me..." is actually "depart further".
Rick H.
13-03-2008, 02:02 PM
Also about the sinner who dies unrepentant and who departs further and further from God, since the word used in Greek when God says "depart from Me..." is actually "depart further".
Dear Nina,
Thanks for your post, this is very interesting to me. Especially the part quoted above. I will take a look at this when I can using my 'baby Greek' skills, but, I wonder if you could give me a head start on the grammar here of this passage?
Thanks again for the unique insights that you provide (even though they are not your words ;), you are a credit to an American Orthodoxy :0)
In Christ,
Rick
Andreas Moran
13-03-2008, 02:08 PM
The question raised here is an old chestnut which has been discussed since ancient times, so there's nothing I can add. I can't believe in apokatastasis because that idea has been declared heretical, though, as is known even to me, some who expressed themselves more circumspectly than Origen are saints and Fathers of the Church. Father Sophrony does not go futher into St Silouan's comment. I ask myself this question: would I be offended if sinners were somehow saved and hell abolished? I answer my own question by saying that I could not think of anyone suffering torment for eternity. Didn't one saint say, if it were possible I would pray everybody out of hell? Didn't Father Sophrony pray a soul out of hell? If a man can think that way and if, as seems possible, a man can indeed pray one soul out of hell, then what can God, Who is perfect love and omnipotent do? True, He can't make us love Him; it seems He chose as the foundation of His creation the one thing He cannot do - force us to love. Christ is clear and terrible in His account of the judgment. But with God all things are possible. I say all this with, of course, a high degree of self-interest!
Rick H.
13-03-2008, 02:11 PM
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I took a quick look and I am seeing the verb [apochoriete] to which you point used in the imperative present active second person plural--so I'm not seeing the support for "further and further" here? Possibly with your Greek skills you can bring me up to speed.
Thanks again.
In Christ,
Rick
Herman Blaydoe
13-03-2008, 02:22 PM
What is even great sorrow or pain compared to infinite joy?
Will any sorrow or pain we feel be equal to or greater than the joy of experiencing the Love of God unadulterated?
Hell is what WE make it to be. Heaven is what we are willing to accept.
Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.
Herman the Pooh
I have read these days a quote by a Father who said that God is just and merciful. He is merciful now. But in the next life He is just.
Why do you think the Fathers and the Saints mourn for their sins and keep death in front of their eyes? Constant remembrance of death is actually a grace, I have read from another Father.
Also another Father (I think it is St. Symeon the New Theologian) says that if we do not mourn daily for our sins it is not beneficial (please pardon the paraphrasing and that I do not remember the exact references and the names of the Fathers who have said such things).
The examples of individuals, of peoples and of nations who have been punished in the past by the justice of God, as well as the punishments which we see daily striking those who transgress the holy commandments of God, affirm that "every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution" here (Heb. 2,2). And it is natural, if there is no repentance, that they will also receive punishment there. This is required by the justice of the infinite and all compassionate God. "For then it is a time of revelation and punishment, not compassion and mercy; then it is a time of revelation of the wrath, anger, and the just retribution of God. It is a time when " the anger of the Lord was kindled against His people, and He stretched out His hand against them and smote them" (Is. 5,25), as a punishment to the disobedient. Woe to him who falls into the hands of the living God!" [GREGORY PALAMAS, [...] (To the Most Reverend Xeni)...] This is very natural. For, if God is a lover of mankind, as He is, then He is also just. But because He is just, how will it not be just to punish the one who has received so many benefits and yet has proceeded to do deeds "worthy of hell", and has not become better neither by threats nor by benefactions?
To him who says that God is loving and consequently cannot punish, St. John Chrysostom says: How are you not afraid when expressing yourself in such a bold manner about God? So if God punishes, according to your opinion, He is not, therefore, a loving God? But did He not foretell you everything from the beginning? Did He not use threats? Did He not use infinite measures for your salvation? And he concludes: " Do not delude yourselves, O people, by being convinced by the devil, for such opinions are his own machinations". [JOHN CHRYSOSTOM, On the Future Judgment PG 63, 743. On the Second Coming of Christ 3, PG 59, 624.]
That the impious will be punished we can be assured also by the following: If the evil are not to be punished; if there is "no retribution for anything", then "neither will the righteous be crowned". [Ibid.] pp. 509-510,The Mystery of Death by Nikolaos P. Vassiliadis
Saint Nikodemos of Holy Mountain has said that sin is "eternal evil". However as another Father has said, God will not recompense us for our sins as we deserve it, but lesser.
It is important also to know that:
God does not threaten and foretell hell because He is cruel and inhuman, but because He is full of "mercy and loving kindness toward mankind". That His goodness "does everything" to hinder us from sin and to bring us to repentance, is evident, "for He punishes the sinners and crowns the victors of virtue". Moreover, whatever He tells us about this matter is revealed to us in this life; He teaches it to us here. Our loving God foretells the punishments that He may impose, "so that He may not do what He foretells that He will do. He threatens us with gehenna that you may not be led to gehenna". In this manner He tells us: "Be frightened by the words and do not be mournful over the realities". And the God-enlightened Father, who saw how much benefit the soul acquires from all this all-wise instruction of our all-merciful God, exclaims: "Lord, Your promises are good; Your anticipated Kingdom is also good; but even your threatened gehenna again is good". For as it is, "the kingdom exhorts us well and gehenna instills in us a useful fear"!... [JOHN CHRYSOSTOM, Homily 25, On the Future Judgement PG 63, 746; 748; 750.]
Theodoretos in his interpretation of the third chapter of the Book of Jonah, on the occasion of the repentance of the Ninivites, observes:
If God wanted to punish Ninivites He would not have threatened them beforehand, but would have imposed the punishment directly. But because God rejoices only over the salvation of men, He threatens griveous things so that He may not be obliged to impose these griveous things, that is, punishments. [In NIKODIMOS OF THE HOLY MOUNTAIN (Heortodromion: Comments on the Canons od the Great Feasts), p.307
After these St. John Chrysostom concludes:
"So even hell is a result of the love of God for us. let us love God as He wills it, for He considers this a great work. And even if we ignore Him, He continues to plead with us. And if we do not want to return near to Him, He will punish us because he loves us, and not simply because He seeks and wants to punish us"! [In NIKODEMOS OF THE HOLY MOUNTAIN, (The New Ladder), Constantinople 1844, p.303.] pp. 511-512 The Mystery of Death by Nikolaos P. Vassiliadis
St. Basil the Great, however, affirms that the loss of the communion with the Triune God is the most unbearable of all evils. For him who has experienced this catastrophe, the alienation and the distance from God is more unbearable than the anticipated punishments of gehenna and more burdensome, as is the deprivation of light to the eye, even when this deprivation is not accompanied by pain. [BASIL THE GREAT, Long Rules, Question 2,2 PG 31, 912B.]
As we know from the Apostle, the world will be judged by the Saints. Also in the Book of the Revelation the righteous demand from God justice.
St. Symeon the New Theologian says that at the future judgment this, too, will take place:
God will place before the sinful Patriarchs the holy Patriarchs, such as John Chrysostom, John the Merciful, Gregory the Theologian, St. Ignations (...). Before the sinful Metropolitans He will place the holy Metropolitans, Basil the Great, Gregory the Wonder-worker, St. Ambrose, St. Nicholas (...) and will say to them: Did you not also live your life in those places where they believed in me and served me faithfully? Did you not sit on their thrones? Why did you not imitate their works? (...) Why did you not fear to hold and eat me, who am pure and immaculate, with unclean hands and with even more unclean heart? Thus fathers will be condemned by fathers; slaves and free men by slaves and free men; the rich and poor by the rich and poor; the married by the married; the unmarried by the unmarried; and simply stated each sinner on that fearful day of judgement will see before him the person who was similar to him and will be condmend by him in the eternal and that inexpressible light (...). And when the sinners of the world see in the kingdom of heaven the righteous of the world, [...] and all the sinners in hell will see those like them but in the kingdom of heaven, then indeed they will be put to shame and will be without excuse." [SYMEON THE NEW THEOLOGIAN, (Complete Extant Works), Athens, Part 1, Homily 66, 6p.353.] pp.491-492 The Mystery of Death by Nikolaos P. Vassiliadis
This sounded strange to me as well. No, I'm not asking about the kinds of "fun activities" in Heaven. I was just wondering about our inner peace.
So, the idea is that those who go to heaven will have eternal peace and happiness. Now, my question is the following: how can they really have that when they know that some of their brothers or sisters are suffering in hell during this time? How are they supposed to forget about them or ignore the fact or just make peace with the thought that their relatives deserved the punishment?
In this life, the death of a close friend or of a relative has a terrible effect on us. But, still, we can be assured in our faith that there will be eternal life. What happens then when we know that the eternal life will be one of sorrow for people we love?
I am simple. Since my Lord has said that there there will be no more sorrow, I trust Him. I don't need to know how it will work--it's a mystery, just like so many other things. In this life I pray for myself and others, but if God sees fit to save my miserable soul, I believe that He will also take care of the details.
M.C. Steenberg
13-03-2008, 09:08 PM
Dear Andreas, in the above you wrote:
Seems very harsh to me. 'Love could not bear that', said St Silouan.
I would be grateful if you could post the text from the encounters with St Silouan in which this is found, if you have a moment. I haven't got the text here with me at the moment, or would do it myself.
It is a good reflection on the focus of this thread.
INXC, Dcn Matthew
Dear Andreas, in the above you wrote:
I would be grateful if you could post the text from the encounters with St Silouan in which this is found, if you have a moment. I haven't got the text here with me at the moment, or would do it myself.
It is a good reflection on the focus of this thread.
INXC, Dcn Matthew
Here, I found it: Link (http://books.google.com/books?id=SZKQvru-viUC&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq=love+could+not+bear+that+st+silouan&source=web&ots=rgDzDvXpsX&sig=DIDrcOGUooh2un2TPC8YL7CwK7c&hl=en).
However no one said we must not pray for all the departed. Providing Patristic thought on the issues that came up in this thread has nothing to do with love for all departed and praying for them.
If you think I have no love just because I posted what those Fathers say, look that one of my favorite expressions in my profile is "True wealth, for me, is to see you in the Kingdom of Heaven." by Father Amphilochios. Also if I did not care for the departed (all of them) I would not start and keep reviving the thread The importance of the commemoration for the departed (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3501).
Matthew Namee
13-03-2008, 09:56 PM
I would be grateful if you could post the text from the encounters with St Silouan in which this is found, if you have a moment. I haven't got the text here with me at the moment, or would do it myself.
It was particularly characteristic of Staretz Silouan to pray for the dead suffering in the hell of separation from God... He could not bear to think that anyone would languish in "outer darkness." I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, "God will punish all athiests. They will burn in everlasting fire."
Obviously upset, the Staretz said, "Tell me, supposing you went to paradise, and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire -- would you feel happy?
"It can't be helped. It would be their own fault," said the hermit.
The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance. "Love could not bear that," he said. "We must pray for all."
Archimandrite Sophrony, Saint Silouan the Athonite, p. 48. I don't have the actual text with me, but this is quoted in Met. Kallistos' "Dare We Hope for the Salvation of All?" in The Inner Kingdom (p. 194), which I do happen to have with me at my office, by some strange coincidence.
Met. Kallistos' entire article is worth reading, as is the last chapter in Bp. Hilarion Alfeyev's The Mystery of Faith, which also deals with the question of universal salvation. With regard to universal salvation, Met. Kallistos emphasizes the tension which exists in Orthodoxy: on the one hand, God's infinite love; on the other hand, man's free will. Met. Kallistos also points out that Origin's apocatastasis -- his eschatology -- is bound up with his heretical protology (pre-existence of souls, precosmic fall, etc). The two issues were condemned together.
Personally, I reject the notion that God's justice is so inflexible as to condemn eternally one in whom the tiniest spark of love and the remotest possiblility of repentance still exist. I think that the incarnation of Christ is the key to answering the question of universal salvation. Of course, St. Isaac tells us not to call God just, for while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. God found a way, against reason and logic, to save mankind by becoming incarnate. Such a thing was inconceivable until it happened, and even afterwards, the pagans rejected it because of its apparent impossibility (and apparent shamefulness). Yet what was not only impossible with men but unimaginable to men was effected by God.
And this took place without infringing upon human free will. This is crucial, I think: God did not impose himself on humanity. The Theotokos freely accepted the will of God to become incarnate in her womb; had she refused, I cannot imagine that God would have infringed upon her freedom. God, who is wiser and cleverer than any other being, found a way to save mankind that no one, not even the incredibly intelligent Satan, could have predicted. Can we -- even the saints -- with confidence say to God that he is incapable of accomplishing a salvific wonder of the same apparent impossibility? He figured out how to save us once; if anyone is capable of reconciling even the worst of sinners, God is. I trust that he will figure it out.
I have more thoughts on this issue, but this post is long enough...
Matthew Namee
13-03-2008, 10:07 PM
Here, I found it: Link (http://books.google.com/books?id=SZKQvru-viUC&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq=love+could+not+bear+that+st+silouan&source=web&ots=rgDzDvXpsX&sig=DIDrcOGUooh2un2TPC8YL7CwK7c&hl=en).You beat me to it... Sorry for being redundant.
Andreas Moran
14-03-2008, 12:09 AM
'Love could not bear that', said St Silouan.
For those who have 'Saint Silouan the Athonite', it is worth reading this in context starting, I would suggest, on p. 46. On reflection, one can see in Father Sophrony's further writing in this book that love for all people and creatures and even inanimate nature, and prayer for the whole world are the essence of Saint Silouan's life. I just alighted on this passage starting on p. 109:
In the really Christian sense the work of slavation can only be effected through love - by attracting people. There is no place for any kind of compulsion. In seeking salvation for all men love feels impelled to embrace not only the world of the living but also the world of the dead, the underworld and the world of the as yet unborn - that is, the whole race of Adam. And if love rejoices and is glad at the salvation of a brother, she also weeps and prays over a brother who perishes.
. . .
The power of love is vast and pregnant with success but it does not override. There is a domain in human life where a limit is set even to love - where even love is not supreme. This domain is freedom.
Man's freedom is positive, real. It concedes no determination in his destiny, so that neither the sacrifice of Christ Himself nor the sacrifices of all those who have trodden in His footsteps necessarily lead to victory.
The Lord said, 'And I, if I be lifted up from the earth' (that is 'crucified on the cross') 'will draw all men unto me'. Thus Christ's love hopes to draw all men to Him, and so reaches out to the last hell. There may be some - whether they be many or few, we do not know - who will meet even this perfect love, this perfect sacrifice, with rejection even on the eternal plane, and declare, 'I want no part in it'. (It was their recognition of this freedom which propmpted the Fathers of the Church to repudiate the determinist theories of the Origenists. Belief in Apocatastasis, understood as universal salvation predestined in the divine purpose, would certainly rule out the sort of prayer that we see in the Staretz.)
I think this passage is very important but also very difficult. What does Father Sophrony mean, 'rejection even on the eternal plane'? I will try to ask Father Zacharias about this.
Cristina Novakovic
14-03-2008, 01:42 AM
I am simple. Since my Lord has said that there there will be no more sorrow, I trust Him. I don't need to know how it will work--it's a mystery, just like so many other things. In this life I pray for myself and others, but if God sees fit to save my miserable soul, I believe that He will also take care of the details.
Dear Anna,
You are right. This is the way, of course. Now I feel ashamed of having questioned it. How wonderful when people can just accept the will of God!
However, I'm happy to have found out so many of the Father's thoughts on this topic. Thank you all.
One more thing though. If we pray for our departed relatives, their souls can still be saved. Then the saints and God answer our prayers and help us. Somebody mentioned the belief that her departed grandmother, who is probably in heaven now, prays for the whole family, which helps them all in this life. Ok, then, if we can still pray for the ones in hell, do the (departed) saints also pray for the departed people as well as for us here? Also: are normal people able to help in any way when their soul goes to God, can they intervene for us or for the dead?
Misha
14-03-2008, 06:54 PM
A holy elder said once when someone asked him a similar question:
i m an orthodox priest and i should teach people every aspect of the orthodox faith,as has been taught by the, Church.
but what is going God to do with his creatures ,in the eternity is His work.
Dear Anna,
You are right. This is the way, of course. Now I feel ashamed of having questioned it. How wonderful when people can just accept the will of God!
Don't be ashamed, dear one in Christ! And forgive me if my words caused such for you! We all have those things that trouble us; each has his own cross to bear. And the work of the Holy Fathers is comforting, challenging, and completely necessary for us in this regard.
I would imagine, from all that I've read, as there is a unity of the faithful both in heaven and on earth, that the saints and faithful in heaven would pray even more feverently at the time of our departure and judgment. Is that not what we ask when we pray the Theotokos to help us "now in this life, and at the departure of our souls, and in the age to come"?
Anna
Matthew Namee
14-03-2008, 07:28 PM
If we pray for our departed relatives, their souls can still be saved.
I'd like to expand on this... The prayer of one human being for another benefits the person for whom the prayer is offered. This is a basic concept in Orthodoxy. I can pray for a departed person and my prayer helps them. The prayer of a saint, of a "righteous man" (cf. James 5:16) is even more helpful. The prayer of the whole Church in the liturgy, even more so. How much more, then, the prayer of God incarnate?
Think about this. Humans can pray for other humans and help them. The more righteous the person praying, the more effective the prayer. Jesus Christ is a human. It follows that Jesus can, without infringing upon anyone's free will, pray for them and help them. It is not God imposing "help" upon humans; it is one human helping his fellow humans -- something which we all can do. Can anyone doubt that Jesus prays for those in torment? Is it not a natural human impulse, even for the most lowly of us sinners? And if indeed Jesus prays for the departed, how effective is that prayer?
We say, "They crucified the Lord of Glory -- in the flesh." Can we not say, "The Lord of Glory prays for the departed -- in the flesh"? Can not Jesus in his humanity intercede for the dead? And if my prayer helps the dead, and if St. Gregory the Great's prayer could save the Emperor Trajan from hell, what of the prayer of Jesus?
Demetrios
14-03-2008, 09:01 PM
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
One can also see a parallel to this verse.
Do we not call the dead, departed?
Matthew Namee
14-03-2008, 09:13 PM
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
One can also see a parallel to this verse.
Do we not call the dead, departed?
I don't see what your point is. We call all the dead "departed," as in, "departed from this earthly life." The word "departed" includes all the righteous and unrighteous dead. It has nothing to do with the verse you quoted.
Cristina Novakovic
14-03-2008, 11:03 PM
Don't be ashamed, dear one in Christ! And forgive me if my words caused such for you! We all have those things that trouble us; each has his own cross to bear. And the work of the Holy Fathers is comforting, challenging, and completely necessary for us in this regard.
Anna
Dear Anna,
Your words brought a lot of peace and I am grateful. I was sorry and ashamed not only because I have questions and do not just trust God. Maybe this is good to a certain extent, as this wil make me find out more things about the wonderful orthodoxy. The problem is with not following on the questions with reading more so I could get more answers.
That's why it's good to have you all: I find out in one hour what I couldn't read in a month! :-)
This website is a place where I discover "another" orthodoxy than what I used to believe in and follow. I find here love and peace and light, which are totally the opposite of the strict rules and punishments from before. Thank you all for your answers.
Cristina
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