Limits of God's forgiveness?

[Anya]

I read in Theophan the Recluse that God has a limit on His forgiveness of our sins. At one point, St. Theophan seems to say that it is not so much God but rather we who are the reason why we cannot be forgiven; if we continue sinning, we could become with such hardened hearts that even God cannot help us. But St. Theophan also provides some examples which demonstrate that occasionally God has become so fed up with some sinners whom he had forgiven several times that eventually He punished them severely. So St. Theophan is not just saying that we are the reason that we cannot be forgiven and that we could bring ourselves down to such a state that we won't be able to be loved by God. He also says that there is a limit to God's patience with us.

I have to say that I was surprised that I read such a statement, and I cannot help but to think that St. Theophan made such a statement as a psychological trick on his audience to keep his readers motivated not to sin.

Any thoughts or useful quotes from the fathers? I'd appreciate your input. Thanks.

[Andreas Moran]

We have a thread on St Theophan's work, 'The Path to Salvation'. The passage to which Anya refers is on page 127. St Theophan is writing about procrastination and what he writes is to be understood in that context. He is saying that when good thoughts come to us, we must allow them to motivate us. Simply to receive good thoughts and not respond to them will cause us to forfeit the benefit they could confer upon us. We have to give good thoughts and impulses prominence. He is saying, I think, that we must conform ourselves to the good and not to our worldy concerns. If we fail to do so, grace withdraws and we perish in the hell of our own devices. (For Eagles fans, it means you check in to the Hotel California.)

[Father David Moser]

St Theophan is writing about procrastination and what he writes is to be understood in that context.

God begins to call us to holiness and repentance gently and quietly. When we don't respond at first, then He calls a little louder. The more we resist or ignore him the louder he calls. Sometimes we get so deaf to the call of God that it is necessary to do something drastic to get our attention. Sometimes you have to hit the mule over the head before he pays attention. What might appear as punishment for evildoers can also be seen as a strong effort to call the sinner to repentance. It is not punishment but evidence of the extreme lengths of God's mercy to call a sinner to a repentance.

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

' . . . self-appreciation and high opinion of oneself are extremely harmful in the work of spiritual endeavour . . . Therefore, in His wise dispensation for us all . . . our loving Father in heaven allows temptations to assail us, so as to bring us to a state in which we can easily escape this terrible danger of self-appreciation, and are almost compelled to reach a truly humble knowledge of ourselves . . . the Lord shows His loving-kindness as well as His wisdom; for by humbling us He makes us derive the greatest benefit from things which appear most harmful, since of all things humility is what is most necessary and useful to our soul.' St Theophan, 'Unseen Warfare', p. 274.
The soul which does not respond to God's chastising does not wish to be humble, and responds to tests either by accusing God or rejecting Him altogether as when men shall blaspheme God for the tribulations He shall pour upon the earth (cf Revelation 16:21). There is the danger of going 'a sin too far' and making the heart so hard that it goes beyond repentance. Then, in a person, as in Babylon, 'the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom [Christ] and of the bride [the Church] shall be be heard no more at all in thee.' (Revelation 18:23.)

[Andreas Moran]

God begins to call us to holiness and repentance gently and quietly.
God may also call us to thanksgiving if we have shown no thanks for what He has given to us.

[Anna]

Sometimes you have to hit the mule over the head before he pays attention.


I own a donkey, not a mule, but if I hit her over the head I would be the one whose attention was gained--by the throbbing at the point where she would kick me! :)


Dear Anya,

St. Theophan was not playing a psychological trick. It's one of those "other side of the coin" phrases. The coin, as it were, is our salvation. On one side is our work (our active response), the other side is God's grace--his calling to us, his acts of "getting our attention".

The passage Andreas mentions that the situation in question is one of a person who knows they must repent, but is refusing to do so--for whatever reason. How long do we expect God to put up with that attitude? Would we dare to presume that He must do so forever or somehow be less than holy and loving? And in our presumption, are we not persisting in sin?

The important thing to recall is that God is GOD, not what we would like Him to be, or think He should be. And His actions, His ways are far above our ability to reason. Don't try to define God's love in human terms.


if we continue sinning, we could become with such hardened hearts that even God cannot help us.

It's not that God cannot help us, but that a heart can become so hard that it no longer is capable of responding to God. God can DO anything, but He does not violate our free will.

St. Theophan is not saying God would refuse forgiveness if we sincerely repent, but that that the concept of forgiveness and repentance no longer even dawns on us if we persist in putting it off for long enough. It is NOT God's love for us that has failed, but our love for Him has dried up. And He will continue to love us even if we descend to the depths of hell--a path we would take by our own volition.

Anna

[Demetrios]

God begins to call us to holiness and repentance gently and quietly. When we don't respond at first, then He calls a little louder. The more we resist or ignore him the louder he calls. Sometimes we get so deaf to the call of God that it is necessary to do something drastic to get our attention. Sometimes you have to hit the mule over the head before he pays attention. What might appear as punishment for evildoers can also be seen as a strong effort to call the sinner to repentance. It is not punishment but evidence of the extreme lengths of God's mercy to call a sinner to a repentance.

Fr David Moser

My head still hurts. LOL

[Deanna Leonti]

I read in Theophan the Recluse that God has a limit on His forgiveness of our sins. At one point, St. Theophan seems to say that it is not so much God but rather we who are the reason why we cannot be forgiven; if we continue sinning, we could become with such hardened hearts that even God cannot help us. But St. Theophan also provides some examples which demonstrate that occasionally God has become so fed up with some sinners whom he had forgiven several times that eventually He punished them severely. So St. Theophan is not just saying that we are the reason that we cannot be forgiven and that we could bring ourselves down to such a state that we won't be able to be loved by God. He also says that there is a limit to God's patience with us.

I have to say that I was surprised that I read such a statement, and I cannot help but to think that St. Theophan made such a statement as a psychological trick on his audience to keep his readers motivated not to sin.

Any thoughts or useful quotes from the fathers? I'd appreciate your input. Thanks.

do you think that God is the one who actually does the punishing?
i do not think God ever stops loving us, the state that you refer to where we might "think" that God doesn't love us could be because we may not at the time think that the "state" we are in is lovable, I think human love is conditional at times and God's Love is unconditional.

yes, maybe you are right that St.Theophan tried to motivate his readers , and sometimes I guess fear was used. Sometimes good, and sometimes not so good.

what about the story of Job?
Deanna

[Misha]

I am father, I am brother,
I am bridegroom, I am dwelling place,
I am food, I am raiment,
I am root, I am foundation,
all whatever you will, I am.

Be in need of nothing, I will be even a servant,
for I came to minister, not to be ministered unto;

I am friend, and member, and head,
and brother, and sister, and mother;
I am all; only cling closely to me.

I was poor for thee, and a wanderer for thee,
on the Cross for thee, in the tomb for thee,
above I intercede for thee to the Father;
on earth I am come for thy sake
an ambassador from my Father.

You are all things to me,
brother, and joint heir,
and friend, and member.

st John Chrysostom

[Deanna Leonti]

I am father, I am brother,
I am bridegroom, I am dwelling place,
I am food, I am raiment,
I am root, I am foundation,
all whatever you will, I am.

Be in need of nothing, I will be even a servant,
for I came to minister, not to be ministered unto;

I am friend, and member, and head,
and brother, and sister, and mother;
I am all; only cling closely to me.

I was poor for thee, and a wanderer for thee,
on the Cross for thee, in the tomb for thee,
above I intercede for thee to the Father;
on earth I am come for thy sake
an ambassador from my Father.

You are all things to me,
brother, and joint heir,
and friend, and member.

st John Chrysostom

Thank you

what a true heartfelt poem


Deanna