'Seventy times seven' (Mt 18.22, Gen 4.24)

[Priest Seraphim Holland]

Please look at the verses below, Mat 18:22 and Gen 4:24, from several translations (from eSword, a free bible tool that I recommend). Is this the same number: 77?

I had always read the verses like a math equation, 70 TIMES 7 = 490. After the verses, see some quotes from the Holy Fathers. Some think of the number as 77, St Basil seems to like both 77 and 490! No matter, the symbolism and deep theology of these two verses and this number is amazing.

Mat 18:22
(ASV) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times; but, Until seventy times seven.
(DRB) Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.
(ISV) Jesus said to him, "I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times!
(KJV+) JesusG2424 saithG3004 unto him,G846 I sayG3004 notG3756 unto thee,G4671 UntilG2193 seven times:G2034 but, UntilG2193 seventy timesG1441 seven.G2033
(KJVA) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
(LITV) Jesus said to him, I do not say to you, Until seven times, but, Until seventy times seven.
(MKJV) Jesus said to him, I do not say to you, Until seven times; but, Until seventy times seven.

Gen 4:24
(ASV) If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, Truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
(DRB) Sevenfold vengeance shall be taken for Cain: but for Lamech seventy times sevenfold.
(KJV+) IfH3588 CainH7014 shall be avengedH5358 sevenfold,H7659 truly LamechH3929 seventyH7657 and sevenfold.H7651
(KJVA) If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
(LITV) For Cain is avenged sevenfold, and Lamech seventy seven.
(MKJV) For Cain is avenged seven times, and Lamech seventy-seven times.



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5. Your next question is of a kindred character, concerning the words of Lamech to his wives; "I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt: if Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and Sevenfold."(2) Some suppose that Cain was slain by Lamech, and that he survived to this generation that he might suffer a longer punishment. But this is not the case. Lamech evidently committed two murders, from what he says himself, "I have slain a man and a young man," the man to his wounding, and the young man to his hurt. There is a difference between wounding and hurt.(1) And there is a difference between a man and a young man. "If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold." It is right that I should undergo four hundred and ninety punishments, if God's judgment on Cain was just, that his punishments should be seven. Cain had not learned to murder from another, and had never seen a murderer undergoing punishment. But I, who had before my eyes Cain groaning and trembling, and the mightiness of the wrath of God, was not made wiser by the example before me. Wherefore I deserve to suffer four hundred and ninety punishments. There are, however, some who have gone so far as the following explanation, which does not jar with the doctrine of the Church; from Cain to the flood, they say, seven generations passed by, and the punishment was brought on the whole earth, because sin was everywhere spread abroad. But the sin of Lamech requires for its cure not a Flood, but Him Who Himself takes away the sin of the world.(2) Count the generations from Adam to the coming of Christ, and you will find, according to the genealogy of Luke, that the Lord was born in the seventy-seventh.
St Basil the Great, 365 letters, Letter CLXXXVII (187)

And when Peter had put the question whether remission were to be granted to a brother seven times, "Nay," saith He, "seventy-seven times;"(5) in order to remould the Law for the better; because in Genesis vengeance was assigned "seven times" in the case of Cain, but in that of Lamech "seventy-seven times."(6) Tertullian on prayer, Chapter VII, the Sixth clause

[Michael Stickles]

That is interesting. I checked Chrysostom, and he doesn't think of it as a specific number at all:


What then says Christ, the good God, who is loving towards man? "I say not unto you, until seven times, but, until seventy times seven," not setting a number here, but what is infinite and perpetual and forever. For even as ten thousand times signifies often, so here too. For by saying, "The barren has borne seven," (1 Samuel 2:5) the Scripture means many. So that He has not limited the forgiveness by a number, but has declared that it is to be perpetual and forever.

BTW, the Greek for "seventy times seven" is the same in both the Septuagint and in the Greek NT that I checked: εβδομηκοντακις επτα (sorry - could't get the accents to show up).

In Christ,
Mike

[Priest Seraphim Holland]

That is interesting. I checked Chrysostom, and he doesn't think of it as a specific number at all:



Of course, one meaning of the number is that it is an arbitrarily large number, signifying infinity (we must always forgive). But it is still a number, and I am concerned with its actual value - 77 or 490.

I wrote an article based on the reading from Vespers for today, which included this number.

For those who are interested in the good and bad example of Lamech, in the light of the Holy Fathers and the great Canon see

http://stnicholasdallas.blogspot.com/2008/03/great-lent-second-week-wednesday.html