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Stewart Quarles
25-03-2008, 06:23 PM
I was wondering is someone here could help me with a question about the Nicene Creed. I recently read an old article on Christianity Today called Why I'm Not Orthodox (http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/1997/january6/7t1032.html), and I also read a few responses. In one response (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/clendenin.aspx), Father John Whiteford says this:


Clendenin also takes issue with the Orthodox claim that there is only one Church, and that the Orthodox Church is that one Church. He later states that Evangelicals affirm the Ecumenical creeds of the early Church. What about the Nicene Creed, which states "I believe... in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church...."? The Fathers that originally wrote this creed did not include heretics or schismatics in their understanding of the One Church—in fact, these same councils specifically anathematized heresies and schisms. Unless we are free to fill in whatever meaning we wish, if we affirm the Nicene Creed, we can only affirm one united Church—united in Faith and Sacraments. Now I’ve always affirmed the Nicene Creed. However, I’ve never really thought about the meaning of “in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” I just always assumed that “universal” could be substituted for “Catholic.” This is what my Protestant tradition has taught me. Anyway, here are some questions: What did the council mean by this phrase? Were they merely asserting the “universality” of the Church or the unity of the Church as a real entity and institution? Is there some primary source material that someone here can point me to that discusses what the council believed about the nature of the church?

Thanks,

Stewart

Michael Stickles
26-03-2008, 05:56 AM
What did the council mean by this phrase? Were they merely asserting the “universality” of the Church or the unity of the Church as a real entity and institution? Is there some primary source material that someone here can point me to that discusses what the council believed about the nature of the church?

I believe that there was some discussion on this part of the Creed some time ago in a couple of different threads here, but I don't recall where. But we can look to the writnigs of the Fathers of the time for insight.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386AD), in his Catechetical Lectures (I believe written before the Creed's wording was finalized), had this to say (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf207.ii.xxii.html) about the word "Catholic" in the phrase "One Holy Catholic Church":


It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men’s knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly; and because it brings into subjection to godliness the whole race of mankind, governors and governed, learned and unlearned; and because it universally treats and heals the whole class of sins, which are committed by soul or body, and possesses in itself every form of virtue which is named, both in deeds and words, and in every kind of spiritual gifts.

As for what the council believed, in Canon VII of the 2nd Ecumenical Council (the same council which affirmed the Creed in the wording we know), we find the following statement (I have edited for space; this link (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.ix.viii.ix.html) goes to the full text on CCEL):


Those who from heresy turn to orthodoxy ... we receive, upon their giving a written renunciation [of their errors] and anathematize every heresy which is not in accordance with the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God. ... But Eunomians, who are baptized with only one immersion, and Montanists, who are here called Phrygians, and Sabellians, who teach the identity of Father and Son, ... —all these, when they desire to turn to orthodoxy, we receive as heathen.

The point of this is that the "Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" was identified not just with the universal community of those who seek to follow Christ, but with a very real and present entity with identifiable doctrine. Even such things as baptizing by one immersion instead of three - something many today would consider insignificant - were considered not in accordance with the "Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" and those who followed such practices were received, not as members of some other part of the universal Church, but as "heathen" (and, as such, being outside the Church).

A quick point here, to avoid misunderstanding - "outside the Church" does not necessarily have the same connotations for an Orthodox as it normally will for a Protestant, since the ecclesiological understanding is different. This concept and other thoughts on the nature of the Church in general (beyond just the meaning of the words in the Creed) were delved into in the Ecclesiological dogma, east and west (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3998) thread on this forum some time ago (warning - thread includes 275 posts with rabbit trails, repetitions, and numerous communications difficulties).

In Christ,
Mike

Maria Murray
26-03-2008, 02:42 PM
This is not precisely the answer you are seeking, but I just wanted to point out that in Slavonic the word "catholic" is translated as "sobornyi", a form of "sobornost", meaning togetherness and having to do with councils of the Church (sobor). This is not exactly the same meaning as what 'universal' means to a modern westerner. My understanding is that we must see the words used in the creed by the councils within the context of the spirit and tradition of the Councils, so looking more deeply into the whole faith of the councils may be a good idea.

Perhaps someone who knows Greek can explain what meaning was assigned to that word in the original creed.

Herman Blaydoe
26-03-2008, 03:51 PM
Like many words, "catholic" has a range of meanings. It certainly means "universal" but what does "universal" mean?

One meaning is "that which pertains to the whole", or "containing everything". I would take that to mean that the "catholic" church applies to everyone and that it would contain everything necessary for "salvation" and that one teaching should apply to everybody (St. Paul says we should be of "one mind"). It also implies that EVERYTHING applies, we are not a pick-what-you-like-and-leave-the-rest sort of church. Myriads of churches teaching different things does not fit this meaning of "universal" or "catholic". One teaching containing all that is necessary certainly fits the description of the Orthodox Church as "One" "Holy" "Catholic" and "Apostolic". We have ONE Faith that is true to the APOSTOLIC witness that is CATHOLIC (universal) in its application to all who call themselves Orthodox Christians according to our Creed.

Matthew Panchisin
26-03-2008, 04:58 PM
Dear Stewart,

Fr. Georges Florovsky explains below how things had been understood very early in the life within the Church, commenting on a letter of St. Ignatius to St. Polycarp Fr. Florovsky mentions:

"This is the first written use, which has come down to us of the term "Catholic" Church. The word "catholic" means in Greek "universal" but the conception of catholicity cannot be measured by its world-wide expansion — "universality" does not express the Greek meaning exactly. Καθολική comes from καθ’ ολου, which first of all means the inner wholeness, not only of communion and in any case not of a simple empirical communion. Καθ’ ολου is not the same as κατά παντός. It belongs not to the phenomenal and empirical, but to the nominal and ontological plane. It describes the very essence and not the external manifestations. If "catholic" also means "universal," it certainly is not an empirical universality but rather an ideal one: the communion of ideas, not of facts, is what is meant. St. Ignatius’ use of the word is precisely this. This word gives prominence to the orthodoxy of the Church, to the truth of the Church in contrast with the spirit of sectarian separatism and particularize. He is expressing the idea of integrity and purity."

Nina
26-03-2008, 05:50 PM
Dear Stewart,

In addition to the advise you have received above, if you can find this book (http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b12.en.the_mind_of_the_orthodox_church.00.htm), by Metropolitan Hierotheos, you can read the part where the Metropolitan explains about Catholic. There are some chapters available on line, however that part is not included and I do not have that book.

As Matthew's quote above points out the word in Greek has nuances which can not be conveyed just by saying Catholic.

There is another book of Metropolitan Hierotheos, (a catechism which I bought for my fiance), where he summarizes the meaning of Catholic:



"Catholic". She [the Church] is called catholic for many reasons. First, because she is found throughout the world. Second, because she preserves the whole truth. Third, because her life is common to all. The adjective catholic is identified with the adjective orthodox. A true Catholic is an Orthodox believer, because he possesses the whole truth and is completely transfigured by it. p.140 Entering the Orthodox Church: The catechism and baptism of adults by Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos

Stewart Quarles
26-03-2008, 09:22 PM
Nina, thanks for the book recommendation; it looks helpful. I’ll probably purchase a copy.

And thanks to all for your input on my questions. This has been something that has been of interest to me for some time. I purchased an entire church fathers collection a few years ago, and was surprised by what I found. One of the first things that stood out to me in their writings was a strong belief in Church authority, especially the authority of the bishop. The ecclesiology I find in the writings of the church fathers is different from that of American evangelicalism, the tradition I am currently in. I’ve got a lot of research to do. Can anyone else recommend some helpful reading material?

Michael Astley
05-04-2008, 07:54 PM
Dear Stewart,

May I suggest that you read St Cyprian? There are writings of his published in two volumes by the St Vladimir Seminary Press: On the Church: Select Letters and On the Church: Select Treatises. They express very well the foundation of the Patristic and Conciliar understanding of the nature of the Church, which is expressed in Orthodoxy to this day.

On a page on my own parish's website, I tried to express something of that here (http://www.newmartyr.org.uk/branch.html). Perhaps that may help.

Pax,
Michael

Misha
05-04-2008, 09:05 PM
The Mind of the Orthodox Church, by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos: The term 'catholic' originates with Aristotle and means whole, entire, "the common name in contrast to that of each one". Furthermore, we can say that the term 'catholic' is identified and linked with what is Orthodox.
When we say that the Church is catholic, we mean it in three particular respects. First, that it exists in the whole world, second, that it has all the truth about God, man and man's salvation, and third, that the life which the Church has is common for all Christians, for all its members.


In the first place it is called catholic because it is in the whole world. There is no place in which the Orthodox Church does not exist. St. Kyril of Jerusalem gives this definition: "It is called catholic because it is spread throughout the world. . . because it is everywhere in the world from end to end of the earth. . . because of the unity of the Churches spread everywhere, all of which make up one catholic whole in the bond of the Holy Spirit". So then the presence of the Church in the whole world and its unity with the power and energy of the Holy Spirit characterise it as catholic.
Then it is called catholic because it has the whole truth, as it was revealed on the day of Pentecost. Here we must point out that the scholastic theology of the West teaches that through the ages we have greater deepening in the dogmas of the faith and that they are still developing further. But this is not orthodox teaching. We believe that on the day of Pentecost the Apostles reached deification, experienced Revelation and so reached the whole truth. Those who through the ages reach deification share in the same experience of revelation. But this truth is formulated and expressed in every epoch, as heresies appear. Thus we have not developed and gone deeper in the faith, but on the one hand, we struggle to live the faith, and on the other hand we are preserving the expression of faith in terms that will protect it from wrongdoings and distortions.


St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, writes: "The Church, having received this message and this faith, although spread throughout the world, carefully keeps it, as living in one house: and nevertheless it trusts all, as it has one and the same heart".


In this sense catholicity is bound up with Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy preserves the whole truth, both as revealed and dogmatic, and as experience, while heresy breaks the catholicity of the truth, because it takes up one side of the truth and overlooks the other. For example, Arios did not deny that the Angel of the Lord appears in the Old Testament, but he denied the divinity of the Word. The Monophysites did not deny the divine nature, but they overemphasised it at the expense of the human nature, whereby they did away with the possibility of salvation. We observe this in all the heresies. They take one part of the truth, separate it from its catholicity, and overemphasise it at the expense of the whole. Thus the Orthodox-Catholic Church teaches, as St. Kyril of Jerusalem says, "In a catholic and complete way all the dogmas which should come into the knowledge of men".
Likewise, the Church is said to be catholic because the life which it offers belongs to all; that is to say, all Christians have the possibility of attaining deification, regardless of their way of life, their occupation and the place where they live. The Orthodox person is one believing in a catholic way, a virtuous person living in a catholic way, one who applies to his life all the commandments of Christ.
As Father Justin Popovich teaches, the members of the Church "live with what is His own (Christ's), they have what is His own and they know through His own knowledge, because they think with the catholic mind of the Church, and they feel with the catholic heart of the Church, and they desire with the catholic desire of the Church, and they live with the catholic life of the Church". We are members of the Church "through living the one, holy and catholic life of the Church, through the holy and catholic faith of the Church, through the holy and catholic soul of the Church, through the holy and catholic conscience of the Church, through the holy and catholic mind of the Church, through the holy and catholic will of the Church. And thus let us have everything common and catholic, the faith, and love, and righteousness, and prayer, and fasting, and truth, and sorrow and joy and salvation and deification and godmanhood, and immortality, and eternity, and blessedness."