Reasons for infant communion

[Algernon]

I am on my way to converting to Orthodoxy and was talking with my parents about it last week when I mentioned that the Orthodox commune infants. That really freaked them out. (They're Baptists, so they're uncomfortable with infant baptism anyway, but infant communion was too much for them)

I was able to answer most of their questions, but couldn't explain to them why Orthodox commune infants other than to say "Uh, they've always done it that way."

Can someone please explain this to me so I can explain it to them?
Thanks,
A

p.s. I looked for an existing thread on this subject but couldn't find one. If there's one that someone can point me to, I'd appreciate it.

[Antonios]

Dear Algernon,

I also did a search in the forum and couldn't find much directly on this topic, but I think it goes along the belief that the baptized infant is now a full member of the Body of Christ and so can take communion. In fact, immediately following the baptism of the infant, he/she is then chrismated and then receives Holy Communion. Aside from being the practice and tradition of the Church since as far as can be remembered, if you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't you want to have your infant child receive the Body and Blood of Christ? This is the greatest gift you could help them receive.

I hope others could further expound on this important topic for Algernon, maybe with even some Patristic references, since I can't immediately recall any.

In Christ,
Antonios

[Olga]

There is a series of programs on baptism in the audio archives of the "Our Life in Christ" website (free and fully downloadable) at www.ourlifeinchrist.com (http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com). This site is a real treasure.

The scripture reference that immediately comes to mind is: But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven". It is found in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. I'm sure there are many other scriptural and patristic references. It is also worth looking at the text of the baptism service.

[Max Percy]

[QUOTE=Algernon;62399]I am on my way to converting to Orthodoxy and was talking with my parents about it last week when I mentioned that the Orthodox commune infants. That really freaked them out. (They're Baptists, so they're uncomfortable with infant baptism anyway, but infant communion was too much for them)

I was able to answer most of their questions, but couldn't explain to them why Orthodox commune infants other than to say "Uh, they've always done it that way."

Can someone please explain this to me so I can explain it to them?
Thanks,
A

I think there are two things:

as already stated- once baptized you are in the Church and Eucharist is an indication of that.

second, the Eucharist acts on us to draw us more completely into the Body of Christ, into the Kingdom, it therefore necessary and desirable.

[Andreas Moran]

Parents want the best for their children and the best they can give them is Holy Communion. Being a member of the Body of Christ does not depend on age or discretion. Otherwise, what of those with some mental impairment? Would we say that because they do not have discretion they cannot be Christians? God forbid! When you see some children after they have the Holy Gifts you can be in no doubt.

[Father David Moser]

There have been a number of good replies to this question, however, most have missed the most basic problem in this discussion. The Baptists just do not believe the same things that the Church teaches about sin, salvation (both how it is accomplished as well as what it is), the spiritual life, the grace of God, and the role of sacraments in all of the above. There is no "easy answer" or "scriptural proof" that one can give to a Baptist, because the only answer is actually an in depth catechism. Other than the Bible and Jesus Christ, Orthodoxy and Baptist doctrine have almost nothing in common and thus the wide gulf between understanding. In order for a Baptist to truly understand and accept why the Orthodox Church does this, they would have to admit that they themselves are wrong about a lot of things (and so it probably won't happen any time soon).

Fr David Moser

[Herman Blaydoe]

The GOARCH website has a very good defense of infant baptism (http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7067.asp). Beyond that, we've been communing infants for almost 2000 years and haven't killed one yet.

[Olga]

Herman, thank you for the link, it is a very good article indeed. Particularly good is the series of questions at the end which can be put to those who question infant baptism based on their own beliefs. This sort of approach should be used far more often!

I quite like this paragraph:


Over and over again I am told that is incorrect to allow infants to be baptized because the Scriptural order is to first believe, and then to be baptized (Mark 16:16). The error in this thinking is not that it is incorrect to have an adult believe before he is baptized, but that one cannot apply a command intended for adults to infants. The Bible was not written to infants and is therefore not going to direct them to do anything. They are under the care of their parents who can hear, understand, and believe. Additionally, there is an important distinction to be made between baptizing an infant and an adult believer - one has the need to repent, the other does not.

[Kosta]

'And there are three that bear witness on Earth: the Spirit, the Water and the Blood and these three agree as One." (1John 5.8)

The Spirit= Chrismation
The Water=Baptism
The Blood= Holy Eucharist

[Angela V.]

Dear Algernon,

Another important way to see this, is that when your child is young, the parents need to make decisions for the infant.

They don't give the child a menu and let them order. They know what the child needs to eat to be healthy.

Even when it's time to immunize thir child, they don't ask their child, they choose, as it is best for them. (I'm sure most will say no, as it hurts.

Do they ask an their infant if their cold, or do they know as parents it's cold outside, therefore they put a jacket on their child.

So if parents make these kinds of decisions for their child, (material needs) how much more important are their decisions for their spiritual needs, as the child cannot make that decision on their own.

Hope this helps.

+Angela

[Algernon]

Thank you all for your thoughful answers.

However I have one more question regarding St Paul's warning that "anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself." (1Cor11.29)

Is an infant able to discern the Body of the Lord?

Thanks,
A

[Herman Blaydoe]

Thank you all for your thoughful answers.

However I have one more question regarding St Paul's warning that "anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself." (1Cor11.29)

Is an infant able to discern the Body of the Lord?

Thanks,
A

Why not? If the six month old fetus who would become known as St. John the Baptist could recognize our Lord in the womb, why can't an infant "recognize" the Body and Blood of Christ? Who is to say that they don't recognize Him who tells us to allow the children to come to Him? Oft times children "discern" things better than we adults who forget much as we grow older, like say, how to trust.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Antonios]

Thank you all for your thoughful answers.

However I have one more question regarding St Paul's warning that "anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself." (1Cor11.29)

Is an infant able to discern the Body of the Lord?

Thanks,
A

Dear Algernon,

Its funny you mention this. When I tell my 3 year old child that she is receiving Christ when she takes Holy Communion, she shows no signs of doubting it. She simply accepts it with faith. It seems to me, therefore, that an infant, if they could, would have this much faith if not greater. It is us 'educated, rational, progressive adult thinkers' that have our doubts, God have mercy on us.

In Christ,
Antonios

[Matthew Panchisin]

Saint Basil the Great mentions that without the "light of the Tradition" the unspoken words of Christ "the Scripture is reduced to a mere letter."

Adam was infant like and in communion with God. It was the Devil through pride that brought about the fall or interruption of communion, so it is best not to align oneself through pride with the spirit of rejecting communion with God for death was brought through disobedience and life is restored for all members of the Church including the infants in the Orthodox Christian community being the true Church. A sense of the fullness of the faith, community and Orthodox Christian pastoral care are really important. As such freely extracting things from the scriptures like Saint Paul's comments whose words you have referenced had not been written to be applied to infants and can render them distorted when misapplied.

The reality of the matter is that people get blinded by pernicious heresies thinking that they are setting their own fallen understandings of the things of God rightly in place, which turns out to be very wrong when outside the Church. People end up very confused and I strongly believe that that is why the Church Fathers spoke out against the heretics so strongly, because they loved rightly and didn't want people to be mislead into places that make them unable to understand what is right and what is wrong.

In the West it is common for the Latin's and her Protestant children to follow such ways, I do not think the Latin's allow children to receive communion either at least in the Latin liturgical expressions of today. Both the Popes and the Protestant "Pastors" using their own understandings seek to rule over others and by embracing such a spirit heresies are promulgated. Saint John Chrysostom reminds us that "the desire to rule is the mother of heresies” They don't look at things from an ascetical perspective for it is only through fallen intellectual ways that seem like ascents to the high minded that people end up going the wrong way. In this matter both believe the infant Adam being less intelligent than the older Adam should be excluded from communion. Yet the new Adam did say "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise" As such age does not seem to be an excluding factor for perfected praise, why would it be for the most perfect offering where perfected praise in the Eucharistic offering is really the only right response to God because of His love, which can be seen in an infant, the incarnation. Would it be a perfect offering if infants in the Church are excluded from partaking of the chalice?

Such a stance against infant communion goes against the Orthodox liturgical traditions. One could argue that it is anti-liturgical. The Latins have reduced thier litugical traditions significantly, the Protestants or at least most don't believe such traditions. As such for them to be against infant communion should come as no surprise and I think that one might find it difficult to explain to them why they are wrong.

I suspect that all Orthodox Priests knowing well the words "We offer to You these gifts from Your own gifts in all and for all." could ever be comfortable denying children communion since both are liturgical beings in Christ. Severing that union seems rather serious.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Kosta]

Yes, children are natural believers and recognize our Lord Jesus Christ:

'Whoever recieves one little child like this in my name recieves me. But whoever causes one of these little ones WHO BELIEVE IN ME to sin........"(Matt18.5-6)

And again:
"But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, 'Hosanna to the Son of David', they were indignant and said to Him,' Do you hear what these are saying?' And Jesus said to them, 'Yes, have you never read, 'Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants, You have perfected praise". (Matt 21.15-16)

From these verses we can see that it is us, the Orthodox that follow the bible not the supposed sola scripture baptists.

[Algernon]

Why not? If the six month old fetus who would become known as St. John the Baptist could recognize our Lord in the womb, why can't an infant "recognize" the Body and Blood of Christ?

Excellent point.

[Nina]

Thank you all for your thoughful answers.

However I have one more question regarding St Paul's warning that "anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself." (1Cor11.29)

Is an infant able to discern the Body of the Lord?

Thanks,
A

In addition to what everyone has said above:

It should be mentioned that the correct word in the original verse is not 'to recognize', but it is 'to discern' . The word in the original New Testament is διακρίνω.

Plus the translation of the verse is (I am including the verse before also so that the context is better understood):


"But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the Bread, and drink of the Cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body and blood." [1 Cor. 11:28-29]Therefore as we can see this speaks about introspection, repentance and confession.
Babies being so pure do not need to repent and confess. As others have already mentioned Christ established that (the purity of children's souls) when He said: "Let the children come to Me...".

Another teaching of the Church is that when a person (infant or adult) receives Holy Communion the angels stay around and protect the body of that person since it is a vessel of the Body and Blood of Christ. This is the reason why the Church teaches we must commune frequently (after repenting and confessing for sins); and also for a person who is ready to depart to receive Holy Communion if possible. Because angels are around the body and both the body and the soul receive great benefit from it. When an infant receives Holy Communion there is only benefit to his soul and body.

[Andreas Moran]

As I understand it, Baptists don't believe in sacraments and they don't refer to 'Holy Communion' but to the 'Lord's Supper' which is only bread and grape juice so what difference can it make if children take these? What is there to discern in mere bread and grape juice?

[Algernon]

As I understand it, Baptists don't believe in sacraments and they don't refer to 'Holy Communion' but to the 'Lord's Supper' which is only bread and grape juice so what difference can it make if children take these? What is there to discern in mere bread and grape juice?

Part of my parents' concern was Christ's instruction to "do this in remembrance of Me." Their argument is that an infant wouldn't know what they're doing in remembrance of whom.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Andreas,

As I read it Algernon was talking about infant communion within the Orthodox Church and his parents reaction to the practices in the Orthodox Church regarding infants.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Andreas,

As I read it Algernon was talking about infant communion within the Orthodox Church and his parents reaction to the practices in the Orthodox Church regarding infants.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Yes, I take your point. I was, though, wondering why Baptists don't baptise and give bread and grape juice to infants since they don't accept sacraments. But necessarily Baptists don't accept our belief about the eucharist. So they're saying they don't understand how we, in our tradition, and given our belief about the eucharist, give Holy Communion to infants. But since both (our belief and our giving Holy Communion to infants) are firmly in our tradition, I don't see the logic of their view.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Andreas,

I think what happens is they trust what their "Pastors" teach over and over again so that which is presented as being or sounding "logical" according to their understandings of the Gospel ends up being delusional. It's the "Pastors" that are really at fault.

I have known some Baptists as have others here and I'm sure they are very loving people with very good intentions but since God is love and their understandings of God get distorted, their understandings of love also end up being distorted. Hence things that actually concern Orthodox Christians like "we should get our new born child baptized as soon as possible" can actually make those that are not Orthodox Christians uncomfortable. That is not because they are really unloving but rather because their "Pastors" as lovers of their own" intellects" and how they personally understand the Gospel are comfortable for now misrepresenting what it says and means. Such ones can be read about in the bible, they are "the enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat."

At the root of all of this is the spirit of dominance over others, a spirit within the Papacy that seperated Rome from the Orthodox Church and her patrimony. Wars among nations break out with such ways and people have departed from the Orthodox Church by embracing such a spirit. It is the spirit of schism, the breaking of communion internally or externally. A "Vicar of Christ" or "Successor of Christ" type of "Bishop" can do such things with the best of intentions at heart while being looked up to, deeply loved, praised for his good works and concerns for others etc.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Nina]

Dear Andreas,

Hence things that actually concern Orthodox Christians like "we should get our new born child baptized as soon as possible"
In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

:D We baptized my nephew and my Godson after he was 40 days old, and about 15 days before he turned 2 months old. It was so beautiful. There were lots of people attending, who are non-Christians (and there were Orthodox of course) and you had to see and hear their exclamations of joy and how their hearts were touched by the entire Sacrament. The baby was just like an angel and after the baptism he was like a little prince of his Father in Heaven. At the end all people said how amazing it was to witness the baptism of such a young baby and all wanted to hold and take pictures with the little newly-illumined.

When we went to church the next day, he was sleeping the entire time. When I brought him to receive Holy Communion he opened the mouth like a little angel while still sleeping and received and smiled and continued to sleep. The Bishop who gave him the Holy Communion also said 'what an angel'.

As someone commented above if we see little babies/infants receiving Holy Communion we will see heavenly moments. Since they are so pure. Before I had seen several infants commune and it is so moving.

My grandmother said always that when little babies smile looking upwards and not at someone they smile and are conversing with angels. The angels are teaching them God's law. Also when the infants stare upwards it is the same. I also read the same in a book of Metropolitan Hierotheos.


Part of my parents' concern was Christ's instruction to "do this in remembrance of Me." Their argument is that an infant wouldn't know what they're doing in remembrance of whom.We call the newly baptized, newly illumined. These words proclaim a great truth. Therefore regardless of age, the person becomes the vessel of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Communion unites him/her with Christ. We call the Sacraments Mysteries because there is a great deal of things that we do not see, understand and know. Much of it is God's work in the soul through these Mysteries.

[Janice Chadwick]

To receive the Body and Blood of our Lord is to receive life itself. Why wouldn't infants need that as much as anyone else? Remember, that under the Old Covenant, babies were as much a part of the Covenant as adults were. Being part of the covenant puts infants and children under God's care and protection. I was Baptist for 25 years, and I bought the pastors' reasonings about infant baptism and communion too, and, and of course, their reasoning about why the passages about Communion actually being the Body and Blood of our Lord couldn't be taken literally. Personally, I have found that the faith of small children (and I'm talking about children aged 2 or younger) can put us adults to shame. We can learn a lot from infants and small children.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Nina,

In another thread a while ago I mentioned, real theology is dependent on the cognition of the individuals experiencing it because God is love.

Dear all,

We have seen in this thread that Algernons Baptist parents have difficulty accepting some very important teachings and practices of the Orthodox Church, specifically cited infant illumination infants receiving the Eucharist, the most central reality of the Orthodox faith. Participation in the mysteries of the Church had been made contingent upon mindly intellectual understanding via arguments using Holy Writ at times from Algernons Baptist parents. We know the Orthodox Church is very concerned about souls which can be seen in our liturgical traditions, the clerical orders of the Church, in short that concern is what the Church is about, salvation to the glory of God. But even the virtures like obedience must be confirmed in right obedience lest people risk being mislead to places of impasses.

Some say that infants know when they are loved even if they can't articulate that knowledge via words, a notion I think most would agree with. It seems the act of knowing, cognition or perception is not just an intellectual endeavor but there must be another way of seeing. The Holy Spirit is everywhere present and fillest all things. Hence the good reference by Herman of Saint John the Baptist leaping for joy in the belly of his mother, a cognition of great love and mercy perceived in some infant way. The soul having not departed from the body as in death still has active spiritual powers, active even in the womb as it grows toward perfection in Christ. When the soul departs from the body it may or may not recognize love depending on what it did while in the body on earth. We can bring to mind, "A man reaps what he sows." and "If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness" It is comforting to know that the Church that loves often prays for the souls of the departed, the Holy Spirit is the comfortor.

Nevertheless, the child leaped for joy not because his physical eyes and ears saw and heard for he was in the womb. For us seeing in the womb of the Church we can and should be nourished so that we decrease and Christ increases there is the Helper. The whole Orthodox Church is showered in Grace. The infant St. Johns way being Christocentric is greater than the wisest, and most learned for in Holy Writ we see that many didn't recognize Christ, truth or perceived much wrongly. This is no paradox however, a most intellectually humble infant reacting differently than the grown up and very learned. The learned know that there is much that is revealed even through misunderstandings. It is not possible to fight the demons and be wrongly Christocentric, that is how they can prevail against man.

Algernon mentioned:

"Part of my parents' concern was Christ's instruction to "do this in remembrance of Me." Their argument is that an infant wouldn't know what they're doing in remembrance of whom."

The above is not a good fight to fight, for it is written: Love never fails.

But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Yet in the end this is a question of Orthodoxy, right belief, right worship as well as how far away from the Church those in error or heresy can stray while believing what they are doing and saying is right. We know that Christ is the resurrection and the life, yet correct knowledge or understandings we have seen are important even though we read, "where there is knowledge, it will pass away." So we see the Chalice is the triumph of Christ and Orthodoxy. There is a well known I think Russian Orthodox Icon with Saint John the Baptist holding a Chalice with the infant Christ.

It is difficult for me to believe that heterodox Christians can be against infant Baptism and infant communion, via Sola Scriptura makes it even a much worse matter it seems. When the Chalice is brought forth in the Orthodox Church we can recall "but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears." The heterodox are nowhere to be found having talked like a child, thought like a child and reasoned like a child. The imperfection of Orthodox Christians is known yet we do not just talk about the Bible. For behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world is the living reality in the Orthodox Church. The unworthy are blessed in the highest way by the Most High entering into communion, that is in the womb of the loving Orthodox Church. Where are we to go Lord? Therein is the difference between how and why some are for infant communion and others are uncomfortable with it, namely Grace that sanctifies all within the loving embrace of the Orthodox Church. It is a God fearing place where the Saints through the Spirit rejoice obeying Christ the truth.

Yet in the end God's love never fails, mans knowledge can as well as many things. It is a matter of souls recognizing the One Who Is and rightly and often proclaiming His death and resurrection or in Saint John the Baptists infant place leaping for joy in the womb.

We can see how the New Jerusalem shines constantly forth light even within infants. It is good for Mothers and Fathers of infants to love in the most high ways.

Shine, shine new Jerusalem! For the glory of the Lord has dawned over you. Dance now and be glad, Sion; as for thee, pure One, rejoice in the resurrection of your child.

In closing I would like to mention, it is a very simple matter for Orthodox Mothers to take infants to communion.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Andrew Lohr]

Googling "infant communion" took me to this old thread, but surely its topic recurs; other Westerners are surprised at Orthodox children receiving communion. So I mention some Western discussion on the topic: firstly for friends, family, or potential converts, and perhaps also to redirect Westerners more interested in infant communion than in Eastern Orthodoxy.

For heavy theological discussion, www.paedocommunion.com (http://www.paedocommunion.com) offers many links to articles pro and con. For answers to 30+ objections, and for 20+ reasons to think infant communion right, and for 1-page introductions to the topic, go to my www.lohr84.com (http://www.lohr84.com) and click on "Feed God's Babies."

A very short Biblical case for infant communion: "When we eat this bread and drink this cup we show forth the Lord's death until he come." If Jesus died for our children, then when we show his death we must include them; likewise for his coming.