When only one converts to the Orthodox faith

[Guy Mengel]

Dear Brethren in Christ;
After a more than a year of study, heart searching and prayer..long story..
I am scheduled to be Chrismated into the Orthodox Church (OCA) soon (Theodotus). My beloved wife, however does not "see" Orthodoxy and will not follow me into this. She does love the Lord deeply and has followed Him all of our 29+ years of marriage. We were married in a Fundamentalist Church in 1979 and we have raised our family in this tradition (Bible Churches, Non-Denominational). We have one son remaining home (13), who has not been baptized (we believed in believer's baptism (immersion) until my studies revealed otherwise).
She has encouraged me to go ahead with my conversion, but has said she cannot follow. She has agreed to also allow me to raise our remaining son as Orthodox.
There is stress, and some bitterness in all of this and many problems to overcome. I will continue to pray for her that her heart be softened and enter in to the Orthodox Church sometime in the future, God willing. Her family, also Fundamentalist, are not encouraging her at all, and this has not helped matters at all. They view my conversion to Orthodoxy with great skepticism and concerns that I am going into heresy.

She is also not very outgoing, but very shy and not willing to go out on her own to her Protestant (Bible Church). This concerns me greatly, and has caused me to consider delaying my Chrismation. She was coming with me to Divine Liturgy (Since Late Dec) up to the Sunday of the Cross (March 30), when after the service she refused to go any longer, calling the services "ritualistic", "complicated", and hiding the Gospel. She says her faith is simple and her life is hidden in Christ, who died on the cross for her sin and rose again for her salvation. I have no doubts that she truly loves Christ, after living with her and acting as husband for the past 29 years. She is precious to me, and I am loathe to damage our marriage, which for the most part has been wonderful and God centered.


So, my questions for you all are:
1. Are there other resources for "Mixed" marriages? (Man-Orthodox, Woman-Protestant) that I should read?
2. How common is my dilemma?
3. Other Resources?

Ah well, Our God is good, he loves mankind...

In His Mercy
-a sinner
Guy

PS.. My Priest knows all about this and I have discussed this with him. But to be honest and he has admitted that he has little to no experience with such things. Thus.. my questions.
PSS.. The OCA church is a mission church and consists mainly of cradle Orthodox. There is one couple who are converts, who both came into the Church at the same time about 2 months ago. They did not experience our problems.

[Denys Kosovsky]

Glad to meet you Guy!

Congratulations to you and your children! May you all be reborn in Christ!

Also congratulations to you and your wife! 29+ years together!

Maybe this will help a little. On Mt Athos monks live in silence (incessant deep contemplative prayer), when non-orthodox pilgrims come around the monks do not lecture - they convert people through silence (prayer) and example. A good Christian example should not be underestimated - it can and does work miracles. As one Church Father said 'first make them love you, then try to tell them about the Lord'. You and your wife already have a lot of love between you so maybe the wisest thing is to giver her all the freedom she needs and all the support. Wives can be quite upset if their role in the family gets threatened so the best thing is to assure her that Orthodoxy will not come between you. For example, one Saint split from the Greek mainstream church and when he was asked how this did not interfere with his relationship with God he replied 'I am not where there is division and discord'. The Bible also says 'overcome evil with good' - this means good deeds and above all prayer. Perhaps you could get the blessing of your priest, especially an episcope/cardinal. Maybe you could seek out a spiritual father, or even write to a monastery and request some monk's prayers.

But really if I'm honest with you I think it's just a test. One of the Fathers said 'if there is no temptation after a good deed then it has not been accepted'. I would advise that you do not delay your Chrismation. Because Christening endows supreme grace - and grace works miracles everyday. Of course, the Church has a lot to offer you as well as you can light candles, pray to saints, ask other people to pray for you.

Also I wonder if there is a social aspect to it. Pseudo-Christian sects use a lot of charisma a social pressure. Maybe if your wife met some nice Orthodox people who could be your friends...

Above all, remember Saint Monica whose son (Saint Augustine) was wayward and heathen, she cried and prayed, and she cried and prayed and when she asked her bishop about her son he said 'no child of so many tears could be lost'. So Saint Monica is a perfect person to ask to intercede for your wife.

I am sure that everything will work out for you and your family. Remember that the Orthodox faith is exacting and so many people find it hard to embrace it at first. God knows how to convert those he wants for Himself. Trust in Him.

You have my prayers

Denys Kosovsky

[Denys Kosovsky]

About stuff to read, how about

Eastern Orthodoxy through Western Eyes By Donald Fairbairn Louisville, Westminster John Knox, 2002. 201 pp. $19.95.
Western Christianity's missionary effort in predominantly Orthodox countries is no longer a passing storm, but a permanent change in the weather. Donald Fairbairn's book is an attempt to take into account this sign of the times and to introduce readers to Eastern Orthodoxy, a world virtually unknown to most Protestants. A serious engagement with real issues raised in missionary activity, this work offers theological depth, creativity, and concrete suggestions for change. The author is well qualified for this task, having begun Christian ministry in 1991 in the primarily eastern Christian setting of Soviet Georgia and continuing thereafter to live and work in the former Soviet Union, studying both the early church and modern Eastern Orthodox theology. To his current professorship of Historical Theology and Missions at Erskine Theological Seminary he brings a doctorate in patristics from Cambridge University and teaching experience from Donetsk Christian University in Ukraine, a missionary training school for post-Soviet evangelicals.

or maybe a free book on the internet


http://fromprotestanttoorthodox.blogspot.com/

there is also a very good set of letters by a protestant young woman who converted to orthodoxy to her parents. These are good

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/letters_from_convert.htm


Hope it helps.

Denys

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Guy,

It may be that when your wife sees the grace you will have after Chrismation, and the subsequent changes in you, she will begin to think more positively. You could share with her the same difficulties she has with Orthodoxy. Church services do seem 'ritualistic and complicated' at first: only slowly did I learn why they are. If you can show to your wife that you have in no sense 'left her behind' but that you are just still learning and perhaps exploring the way ahead for both of you, she will not feel threatened. And as St Paul says of couples where one converts, that one will sanctify the other.

[Herman Blaydoe]

If this is true for a Christian married to a pagan spouse, then it is doubly true when married to a Christian spouse.

Prayer and patience work wonders in this situation. There is a group of people in the very same situation that have a separate mailing list called Orthodox Without My Spouse (OXWOMS) (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oxwoms/). You are not alone.

Herman

[Guy Mengel]

Many thanks for all the kind replies and links.
In His Mercy
-a sinner
-Guy

[David Naess]

Howdy Guy!

Since I am single and newly chrismated myself I can not answer your questions with any authority.

But I must say that Denys Kosovsky offers what appears to be outstanding advice!

No active evangelism here!
This appears to be a situation where the witness of silent example is the smoothest road to take.

David

[John M.]

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'John M.' is identical to members 'Rick James York' and 'Rostislav'. The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.


Dear Guy,

It may be that when your wife sees the grace you will have after Chrismation, and the subsequent changes in you, she will begin to think more positively. You could share with her the same difficulties she has with Orthodoxy. Church services do seem 'ritualistic and complicated' at first: only slowly did I learn why they are. If you can show to your wife that you have in no sense 'left her behind' but that you are just still learning and perhaps exploring the way ahead for both of you, she will not feel threatened. And as St Paul says of couples where one converts, that one will sanctify the other.I imagine this is too late to act upon but you may want to ask your priest about options in the Orthodox marriage sacrament and whether in can be performed years after you were already married outside the Orthodox Church.

Years ago I heard Archbishop Greggory Grabbe give a talk in English on a similar topic. He was approached by a young woman who wanted to marry a Roman Catholic young man. She was a devout Orthodox faithful but was also deeply in love. He was devoutly Catholic as was his whole family.

Archbishop Greggory was then a married priest of her parish. He told her that one cannot force someone to convert and it is wrong to convert only for the sake of marriage. He told her that it was important that she insist on an Orthodox Church wedding, otherwise he would not give his blessing.

The groom's family agreed and they were married.

Some time later, the young wife came home from church one Sunday and her young husband said, "You had Holy communion today, did'nt you?" She said, "Yes, but how did you know?"

The husband told her that she often told him in advance when she was going to have Holy communion and when she did, about the same time of day, he felt a wonderful feeling come over him. So, this time, after she did not tell him, he had that feeling, and that is why he asked.

The couple visited the priest that married them, the future Archbishop Greggory and asked him why this was so, seeing that the husband was not Orthodox.

The priest explained. "You had an Orthodox wedding on my insistance. That means that your souls were joined together by God when the prayers requesting this were read in the ceremony. Your souls became one. Whatever is felt deeply by the soul of one is also felt by the other because you both share one soul spiritually.

The young man questioned his own priest who said he never heard of this. The young husband said that he wanted to become a member of the Church that helped him receive the Holy Spirit. He wanted to become Orthodox, and he did!

The couple were always in church early and remained for the entire service. Their children were born and baptised into the Orthodox Church and his natal family members converted too.

It's a faith inspiring story of hope.

John

[Adrian]

The information here may help explain things:
http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6114
Or miracles here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/IoanRomania09

[Kusanagi]

A good book to read is "Marriage and family life" by St. John Chrysostom. If you can't get a copy then you can read the lives of St Monica or Sts. Adrian and Natalie or St Chrysella I may have mispelt her name.

[Theodora E.]

I know the different jurisdictions have differing stances on requiring Church marriages of married converts. OCA and Antiochians do not (although a man scheduled for ordination in the Antiochian Archdiocese from the subdiaconate and up is now required to be married in the Church - this is new only in the past several years) - but what about GOA and ROCOR? Everything on GOA parish websites, for example, when giving instructions about baptisms/weddings, indicates the godparents and wedding sponsors *must* be married in the Church. To me, it logically follows that a convert couple must then be married in the Church. From reading threads in the past here, it appears that ROCOR might require married converts to be married in the Church, but I'm not sure.

I've been asked by someone interested in Orthodoxy the following (yes, I told her to go talk to the local GOA priest, but she's extremely intimidated about the entire thing and I thought I'd get some sort of info to help her. I can't find much online):

One half of a married couple converts. The spouse who does not convert is non-baptized - and says they never will be. That means a Church marriage is not possible. Where does that leave such a convert?

And no, this is DEFINITELY not about me. I'm single, plus I know much better than that - to not marry anyone who is not a Christian baptized in the Trinity.

Problem is that I cannot find anything "offical" about this online. I've heard all sorts of stories from local priests, as well as folks on other lists - Convert priests not allowed to be godparents in another jurisdiction because they weren't married in the Church. OCA converts with unbaptized spouses being forbidden Communion in GOA parishes because of no Church marriage (including being told this at the chalice). I realize this is very much a pastoral issue, but I suspect there are some some sort of guidelines.

Thank you!

[Herman Blaydoe]

Some jurisdictions teach that baptism or chrismation of a married couple coming into the Church blesses their marriage as well, no marriage ceremony needed. Others require or at least allow a marriage blessing which is a very shortened service. Such issues happen because of the mishmash of independent jurisdictions.

A convert whose spouse does not convert is in the same situation as described by the Holy Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:10-15. A married convert whose spouse did not convert should NOT be denied communion, that priest is flat out wrong.

[Theodora E.]

Pooh, this isn't specifically about spouses who don't convert - it's concerning spouses with whom no Church marriage is possible, due to their non-baptized status (not just unbaptized Orthodox, but not baptized in any Christian body). The priest who denied the married convert Communion took issue with the lack of a Church marriage, not the unconverted spouse. There's a difference there.

[Ryan]

Herman's scriptural citation still applies, though- St. Paul was talking about pagan marriages.

[Father David Moser]

I know the different jurisdictions have differing stances on requiring Church marriages of married converts. OCA and Antiochians do not (although a man scheduled for ordination in the Antiochian Archdiocese from the subdiaconate and up is now required to be married in the Church - this is new only in the past several years) - but what about GOA and ROCOR?

As to the practice in ROCOR, here is my experience: On the eve of my ordination to the diaconate, there was a telephone exchange between the bishop and my priest to verify that I had indeed had a Church marriage (as my wife and I were received together after marriage). I had indeed been married immediately following the baptism and so everything was good, but if that had not been the case, a Church wedding would have been done before the ordination.

Fr David Moser

[Theodora E.]

Fr. David, but for the average laity converting, will your bishop require they be married in the Church?

[Herman Blaydoe]

Pooh, this isn't specifically about spouses who don't convert - it's concerning spouses with whom no Church marriage is possible, due to their non-baptized status (not just unbaptized Orthodox, but not baptized in any Christian body). The priest who denied the married convert Communion took issue with the lack of a Church marriage, not the unconverted spouse. There's a difference there.

Excuse me, but there is no such thing as an "unbaptized Orthodox", that is an oxymoron. Baptism is what marks us as Orthodox Christians. Despite the popularity of the term "cradle Orthodox", NOBODY is BORN Orthodox, they are MADE Orthodox, and baptism is the quintiessential part of that.

The priest was still wrong. The believing spouse sanctifies the unbelieving spouse, regardless. That priest needs some remedial training in pastoral matters. Now if a person, AS A BAPTIZED ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN, married someone who is not baptized, then that person has placed himself outside the Church, and some sort of action, as decided by the priest based on guidance from the bishop would have to taken to "correct" that situation before communion would be allowed. The good fathers in this forum can perhaps elucidate or correct me, but I believe that at the very least confession and perhaps some sort of penance would most likely be required, depending on the circumstances. But if he was married before he converted, the lack of a "church" wedding is NOT a bar to communion for that person, plain and simple.

Herman

[Thomas Ashton]

Congratulations Guy! I too converted, and was christened in 2007. Many Day's !
As you can now see, when posting a simple question it may not be so simple, there are so many valid opinion's. Keep following the direction of your priest and parish family and remain grounded in the Gospel Trust me when I say that the Evil One is on the job and continues to place obstacles in your path. Enjoy the OC life, your wife that the Lord has given you and slowly, steadily move forward.

I read where the Mrs. gave permission for your son to attend with you, that in itself speaks volumes.

[Theodora E.]

Sorry, I was typing too quickly and didn't read what I'd written, Pooh. I meant "not just a non-Orthodox, but not baptized in any Christian body."

[Mary]

Sorry, I was typing too quickly and didn't read what I'd written, Pooh. I meant "not just a non-Orthodox, but not baptized in any Christian body."

Baptisms in other 'christian bodies' are not real. There is only one baptism and it happens in the Orthodox church. So, the situation would be the same as having a pagan spouse. An orthodox who marries a non-orthodox is also not barred from communion forever, although they will probably be told to avoid communion for a period of time. I've seen many couples with just one orthodox spouse, and whether they got married before or after conversion doesn't seem to matter. The orthodox spouse is not prevented from communing, on account of an unbaptized spouse.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Baptisms in other 'christian bodies' are not real. There is only one baptism and it happens in the Orthodox church. So, the situation would be the same as having a pagan spouse. An orthodox who marries a non-orthodox is also not barred from communion forever, although they will probably be told to avoid communion for a period of time. I've seen many couples with just one orthodox spouse, and whether they got married before or after conversion doesn't seem to matter. The orthodox spouse is not prevented from communing, on account of an unbaptized spouse.

Well, that is not exactly true based on practice. Many, if not most, Orthodox Churches allow marriage within the Church if the non-Orthodox spouse is a "properly" baptised Christian, and some bishops have a looser definition of "proper" than others, so in the eyes of the Church it is NOT the same as a pagan spouse where a "church" marriage is simply not allowed. Now if an Orthodox Christian marries in the non-Orthodox spouse's church or a civil ceremony, it is basically treated the same as for a non-Christian spouse, marriage physically "outside the Church" being the disqualifier, and the same requirements are generally levied for readmission to the Eucharist.

[Father David Moser]

Fr. David, but for the average laity converting, will your bishop require they be married in the Church?

When both persons in the marriage are Orthodox, then yes. If only one converts and not the other, then the injunction of St Paul comes into play. Should that non-Orthodox spouse later convert, then we will give the Orthodox wedding.

Fr David Moser

[Father David Moser]

Many, if not most, Orthodox Churches allow marriage within the Church if the non-Orthodox spouse is a "properly" baptised Christian,

According to the rubrics in the Hapgood translation of the Russian Service Book, interfaith Church marriages are permitted between an Orthodox Christian and a believer of the Coptic, Armenian, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran and Presbyterian confessions. The reasoning here seems to be that there is some understanding of sacraments in those confessions. In practice, in my experiene, it is possible for an Orthodox Christian to have a Church marriage with a person of a Trinitarian Christian confession (please note that none of the above exceptions from the rule of only marriage within the Orthodox Church are "automatic", they all require a blessing in some form from the ruling bishop of the diocese)

Fr David Moser

[Theodora E.]

Baptisms in other 'christian bodies' are not real. There is only one baptism and it happens in the Orthodox church. So, the situation would be the same as having a pagan spouse. An orthodox who marries a non-orthodox is also not barred from communion forever, although they will probably be told to avoid communion for a period of time. I've seen many couples with just one orthodox spouse, and whether they got married before or after conversion doesn't seem to matter. The orthodox spouse is not prevented from communing, on account of an unbaptized spouse.

I guess I'm not making myself clear.

Already-Orthodox person marries a Christian who is not Orthodox = Orthodox Church wedding able to be done because the non-Orthodox half is Christian.

Already-married person converts to Orthodoxy, other spouse is non-Christian.

That means if the particular Orthodox jurisdiction requires Church wedding after conversion for the Orthodox to be in "good standing", it cannot be done since the spouse who didn't convert is not Christian.

[Mary]

I guess I'm not making myself clear.

Already-Orthodox person marries a Christian who is not Orthodox = Orthodox Church wedding able to be done because the non-Orthodox half is Christian.

Already-married person converts to Orthodoxy, other spouse is non-Christian.

That means if the particular Orthodox jurisdiction requires Church wedding after conversion for the Orthodox to be in "good standing", it cannot be done since the spouse who didn't convert is not Christian.

Nope. Still not clear. Sorry. =)

But I have no business here anyway. I don't know anything about church weddings. My husband and I were baptized into the Church together. We weren't told to get a church wedding. Maybe we'll celebrate out 25th anniversary with a church wedding.

[Herman Blaydoe]

I guess I'm not making myself clear.

Already-Orthodox person marries a Christian who is not Orthodox = Orthodox Church wedding able to be done because the non-Orthodox half is Christian.

Already-married person converts to Orthodoxy, other spouse is non-Christian.

That means if the particular Orthodox jurisdiction requires Church wedding after conversion for the Orthodox to be in "good standing", it cannot be done since the spouse who didn't convert is not Christian.

Except for the fact that this is WRONG and in clear violation of Holy Scripture. The Apostle Paul says that the believing spouse should not leave the unbelieving spouse, so this condemns that person from EVER receiving communion? Their children cannot be baptized? St. Paul says exactly the opposite. So, no, it is still wrong. If one spouse converts and the other doesn't, the believing spouse can still be a "member in good standing" and take communion even if that marriage is never blessed in the Church. That is what Scripture clearly says and most Orthodox clergy I am acquainted with would not say otherwise.

[Father David Moser]

That is what Scripture clearly says and most Orthodox clergy I am acquainted with would not say otherwise.

I have never run into a bishop who would not agree with Herman wholeheartedly here. To my knowledge I have never known a priest who would also not agree with Herman here. St Paul is very very clear on this.

Fr David Moser

[Thomas Ashton]

Baptisms in other 'christian bodies' are not real. There is only one baptism and it happens in the Orthodox church. So, the situation would be the same as having a pagan spouse. An orthodox who marries a non-orthodox is also not barred from communion forever, although they will probably be told to avoid communion for a period of time. I've seen many couples with just one orthodox spouse, and whether they got married before or after conversion doesn't seem to matter. The orthodox spouse is not prevented from communing, on account of an unbaptized spouse.

Oh my, Lord have Mercy. Mary, are you sure, beyond shadow of doubt, that " other 'christian bodies' are not real" ?? Reference needed please. Are you now comparing pagans to 'other Christian bodies' ? My Bishop accepted my baptism from one of the (as you say) "other Christian bodies'. If what you say is true, then I am not in the OC and have been living a lie. Of what qualifications did St. John the Baptist have in baptizing our Lord and God and multitudes of others? Was he a Jewish priest? I think not. A prophet, forerunner, for he, as I was, baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Your remark is most interesting to me, please explain more for it appears that this discussion is moving towards supremacy of jurisdiction over another, I pray not.

.....we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;

[Thomas Ashton]

I was baptized in what Mary calls "other Christian bodies" and chrismated in OCA of which the Bishop approved my baptism. Is Mary correct? Am I not a real Orthodox Christian? I have never heard of this before now.

[Father David Moser]

Before this baptism question takes us too far afield (it tends to develop a life of its own whenever it arises) let me remind you all that the topic here is about the situation where one spouse is an Orthodox convert and the other is not Orthodox. Baptism does, in a sense, touch on the question though only tangentially as does marriage, however, these are both side issues. Please let us try to remain focused on the topic at hand.

To clarify the "baptism" question that has arisen - the sacrament of baptism (or any sacrament for that matter) is found only within the Church. Those who were baptized outside the Church but with the proper external form (usually immersion in the name of the Trinity) may in circumstances defined by the ruling bishop of each diocese be received by mercy through the sacrament of chrismation or in some very limited cases through confession of faith. A person who has been so received is fully, completely, without deficit and entirely Orthodox. There can be no question about this.

Fr David Moser