Holy fire

[Andreas Moran]

This seems an appropriate time to discuss the annual event at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem when the Patriarch of Jerusalem receives the Holy Fire in the tomb of Christ. Reliable witnesses attest to the authenticity of the event. There are also sceptics. What do members think?

[Effie Ganatsios]

This seems an appropriate time to discuss the annual event at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem when the Patriarch of Jerusalem receives the Holy Fire in the tomb of Christ. Reliable witnesses attest to the authenticity of the event. There are also sceptics. What do members think?

I don't know. How's that for a reaction? I have seen videos that have recorded the emerging light but one thing has always puzzled me.

We celebrate two Easters - the Roman Catholic and Protestant Easter and the Orthodox Easter. Is the light given twice????

Each year a certain Greek - can't remember his name just at the moment - is interviewed on TV and gives us a demonstration of candles dipped in a certain solution that light up by themselves 10 - 15 mins after their dipping. He claims that this is what happens in Jerusalem. A couple of years ago I looked up this person's website. The English, denouncing the Holy Light, was absolutely perfect - native English - which indicates that someone else is behind this man or, at the very least, supports him, and writes his texts for him.

Has anyone on this forum actually experienced this phenomenon personally?

The first time I saw the above demonstration, a young priestmonk was also on the panel. He was a doctor and testified to the fact that he was visiting Jerusalem and saw the Light appear. He was totally convinced that what he saw could not have been a lasar show or some kind of trickery. This occurence influenced him so much that he became a monk.

[Kosta]

There is only one Pascha. Its irrelevant when the heterodox celebrate easter, this has nothing to do with out Feast. I know that a member of another forum visited, and recorded his account on the holyfire website. He eyewitnessed a number of pilgrims nearby have their candles ignited sponaneously. Others have eyewitnessed light phenomenon bouncing thru the dome and walls at the time of the Light.

Chemical solutions mean nothing, this has been happening for over 1100 years before these chemical solutions, (as if you can time it perfectly).

[Effie Ganatsios]

An older thread
http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3654

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Fire

The man who claims the whole thing is a hoax is M. Kalopoulos. Off subject and quite ironic : His name means Son of Good. Kalo = good - o/poulos = son of

I found one of his sites : http://forum.stirpes.net/orthodox-church/3270-michael-kalopoulos-miracle-holy-light-jerusalem.html

This is what the young ieromonk experienced :
http://users.otenet.gr/~styliant/orthodoxia/Holylight.htm

Read it - you will enjoy it.

I read my posts on the above thread and remembered the young priest I mentioned very well. I was most impressed by his manner. Cool, calm, and very low toned (wish all Greeks on TV panels were like this).

[Kalomoira]

This seems an appropriate time to discuss the annual event at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem when the Patriarch of Jerusalem receives the Holy Fire in the tomb of Christ. Reliable witnesses attest to the authenticity of the event. There are also sceptics. What do members think?


I would ask the sceptic: What difference does it make to the *meaning* that is being symbolized by the Holy Fire? The Idea is the important thing and not the way the symbol is emerging. Finally it's a matter of belief. If you don't want to believe in it, let it be. No use trying to convince a sceptic in this matter.


(Although another wonder in this case is the fact that they always manage to bring the Holy Fire to Athens just in time for prime time news ;-) )

[Kris]

We celebrate two Easters - the Roman Catholic and Protestant Easter and the Orthodox Easter. Is the light given twice????


As Kostas said, the date of Western Easter is not really a concern. However, I was told by a Palestinian Catholic, whose family takes care of one of the Stations of the Cross, that the Catholics have their own Holy Fire service. But the fire does not come from the Tomb (I assume they're not allowed to use it since the Orthodox are in charge of the Sepulcher) but from some kind of box.



Has anyone on this forum actually experienced this phenomenon personally?


I was there in Pascha 2006. While I was lucky enough to stand close to the Tomb, and therefore had a good view, there was a pillar blocking my view of the oil lamps in front of the Sepulcher (which many of those who travelled with me say they saw light up spontaneously). I saw the blue flashes, but the Church was full of cameras and it was really impossible to tell what was what.

As for the flame itself, I put my hand in and it didn't burn. I held it under my chin and it didn't burn. However, because of all the smoke, you are made to extinguish your flame almost straight away, so you don't really get much time to "test/confirm" whether the flame truly doesn't burn, or whether it's just limited exposure + adrenaline.

One of the people I was travelling with, who was not able to get into the Church because of the crowd, said that he, not being forced to extinguish his flame outside, handled the fire for a long period of time and didn't get burned. He had been to the Holy Fire service a number of times before, but, like me, had been inside and only had his candle lit for a short time - so this was the first time he had been truly convinced of the miracle.

[Andreas Moran]

A report in a Moscow newspaper today says that that this time it took four hours before the fire ignited the patriarch's torches.

[Paul Cowan]

If I might be permitted to expand or rather alter this thread a bit. After the Thursday night service, father and I were the last to leave the church. As we turned to bow he said "ohh, look at this". We then went back in to the sanctuary and sat down on one of the benches. He was silent for several minutes.

We had left the oil lamps and tea cups burning. The resulting effect on the icons and expecially The Sign icon above and behind the altar was simply beautiful. He called this Living Fire. The effect the dancing flames had on the icons as they danced their light over them. They all seemed "alive".

The Sign icon was the most spectatular. The Seraphim wings were "on fire" red, The Theotokos and Christ Ambos? (halos) were brilliantly lit gold. The sky was a sea blue and below this the border seemed to be desert sand.

All of the icons"danced" to the candles, but this one was the most impressive. We both left quietly to let the dance continue without us. It was as if even within the tomb there was life. And Life abundant.

Paul

[Kosta]

This is a testimony given by a chemistry professor on the back cover of the book "The Paschal Fire In Jerusalem":

'I had heard about the Holy Fire and was, when I made my trip to Jerusalem for Pascha, not disbelieving. I found the idea that such a phenomenon existed interesting. The Church was crowded beyond description. Before the manifestation of the Holy Fire, the Arabs created a tremendous scene, proclaiming the correctness of their faith, and running here and there thru the Church... Then the Holy Fire was brought out by the Patriarch. During this time, I could see what appeared to be flashes of blue colored light, bouncing off the walls of the dome of the Church and thru the galleries. There was an electric quality to the air, almost like static electricity."

-Dr. Eugene Severin -Professor of Chemistry, Woods Product Laboratory University of California, Berkeley

[Irene]

Have faith people. I have a candle that is a treasure to me, that was lit by the Holy Fire and remains unburnt.

[Nicolaj]

It was said in the reporting about the Holy Fire this year that, when it does not appear one time then for sure the end of days has arrived! Amen!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Anna K.]

Christ is risen!
Can some of these reports about this year be found somewhere on the net for us all to share or only in newspapers? It must have been shocking to wait for four hours for the fire that normally shows up in minutes!

I have also heard that the fire didn't come some year when the Jerusalem Patriarchate attempted to take up the gregorian calendar. They never tried it again since. About this I would also like to hear views from you all, does anyone know about this, is it true?

In Christ
Anna K

[Herman Blaydoe]

Christ is risen!
Can some of these reports about this year be found somewhere on the net for us all to share or only in newspapers? It must have been shocking to wait for four hours for the fire that normally shows up in minutes!

I have also heard that the fire didn't come some year when the Jerusalem Patriarchate attempted to take up the gregorian calendar. They never tried it again since. About this I would also like to hear views from you all, does anyone know about this, is it true?

In Christ
Anna K

The only incident I am aware of is when the Greek bishop was barred from the Sepulcher and the Armenians performed the ceremony instead in 1547 while the Greek bishop stood sadly outside. The Holy Fire came out of a fissure in a column outside the Church to find the Greek bishop! More information here: Miracle of the Holy Fire 1547 (http://users.otenet.gr/~styliant/orthodoxia/Jerusalem1517_Eng.htm).

Why would the Patriarch of Jerusalem even try to celebrate Western Easter? Even the Orthodox using the revised Julian calendar still celebrate the same Pascha as the other Orthodox (except Finland).

[Yuri Zharikov]

Christ is risen!
Can some of these reports about this year be found somewhere on the net for us all to share or only in newspapers? It must have been shocking to wait for four hours for the fire that normally shows up in minutes!

I have also heard that the fire didn't come some year when the Jerusalem Patriarchate attempted to take up the gregorian calendar. They never tried it again since. About this I would also like to hear views from you all, does anyone know about this, is it true?

In Christ
Anna K

The incident relates to the calendar reform of Part. Meletios of sorry memory in 1920s. I have read this only once somewhere (a book) and forgot the source. I tried web-searching for this a couple of times but nothing ever came up.

I find it interesting that the Ru.net (Russian web-space) right now is flooded with Holy Light related (or rather affirmative) info , mainly in response to several attacks on the mircale from self-proclamed atheists and skeptical remarks from a modernist "theologian" (Fr. Andrei Kuraev). www.pravoslavie.ru (http://www.pravoslavie.ru) has many articles including a recent interview with the Part. of Jerusalem and a nice review of historical evidence in support of the true nature of the Holy Fire by Yu. Maximov - all of this, I am afraid in Russian.

Every year several hundred if not thousand pilgrims from Russia come to Jerusalem for Pascha and all of them tell stories and show videos identical to the account quoted by Br. Kosta

I wonder if Andreas picked up the topic while he was in Moscow :-)

XRISTOS VOSKRESE to everybody!

[Misha]

During st .Seraphim's life many times the candles in Sarov and Diveyevo light up spontaneously.
Some years ago a man ,who used to go to Holy land every Pascha,experienced Holy Light's presence in his house in Athens,because he was ill and couldn't go to Jerusalem.
fr.Antonios Stylianakis who testified and has filmed the Holy Light 15 yrs ago ,is a psychiatrist and a reliable person.
i can't imagine that the whole thing is a fraud which continues for centuries.If it was so, then it would be very easy for the jews to put some spy's cameras in the most Holy tomb and prove that Christians lie !

[Kris]

If it was so, then it would be very easy for the jews to put some spy's cameras in the most Holy tomb and prove that Christians lie !

I don't really see why Israelis would want to get rid of an event that attracts thousands of people (and therefore thousands of dollars) every year.

That being said, it is difficult to even change a lightbulb in the Holy Sepulcher without a fight breaking out betwen rival Christian groups. If anyone from the Orthodox side was seen tampering with oil lamps or attempting to install lasers, the Armenians would almost certainly expose it in order to secure the right to perform the Holy Light service themselves.

It is certainly unlikely that groups that can't agree as to who is in charge of the broom closet would cooperate to carry out such a fraud.

[Andreas Moran]

The holy fire is brought immediately by plane from Jerusalem to Moscow. Last night, the main TV news in Moscow said that thousands of people lined the road from Domodedovo airport to greet its arrival.

[Kosta]

From what i read the JP switched to the gregorian calendar in 1969 but when the Holy Fire didnt come, they immediately switched back. I assume they celebrated Pascha again in 1-3 weeks after this event based on the julian/nicea formula. Thus the switch to the new calendar only lasted a few months. The only thing is i have come across this in not so reputable sources.

That the Holy Fire didnt come down after 4 hours this year, to me seems a hoax. The Holy Fire is sent to Greece as well, and watching greek satelite radio im sire they would have brought up the delay. Not to mention the hysteria at the very overcrowded Church if they had to wait without explanation for 4 hours! It would have even made it into the secular news.

[Olga]

From what i read the JP switched to the gregorian calendar in 1969 but when the Holy Fire didnt come, they immediately switched back. I assume they celebrated Pascha again in 1-3 weeks after this event based on the julian/nicea formula. Thus the switch to the new calendar only lasted a few months. The only thing is i have come across this in not so reputable sources.

It must be remembered that the church calendar (Julian or Gregorian) and the date of Easter (Orthodox/Western) are two quite different things. Only the Orthodox Church of Finland uses the western paschalion, which disregards the date of the Jewish Passover. This is indeed a major anomaly, which should be corrected.

Kosta's quote illustrates the common conflation of these two matters, particularly by certain "zealots" pushing their own agendas. Kosta is very likely correct in suggesting the sources are less than accurate. Even if the JP had adopted the Gregorian calendar, this would not have made any difference to the date of Easter within that jurisdiction, or, for that matter, any new-calendar jurisdiction such as Greece, Bulgaria, Cyprus, etc. As an Aussie would say, "it's a complete furphy".

[Kosta]

Yes Olga, it seemed to me that he tried to make the fire comedown on western eastern, but i may have read it wrong,and the footnote intended to imply that when the Fire didnt come down on the appointed time, the Patriarch simply "assumed" it was due to the change to the revised julian calendar so the JP switched back. I also remember that this supposedly occured in 1969. I dont know the reliability of the content

[Nicolaj]

As from the information I have, there was no delay of about four hours, this is just messed up by some uninformed and not very interested journalists. The fact is that many believers waited for more than four hours just to have a place near the church, because to get in you should have been there at least one day in advance.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Fabio Lins]

I do not rule out it is a real miracle. But as it is now, it is hard not to think of it as, if not a fraud, a typical case of self-deceiting and wishful thinking.

There are simply to many factors that are typical of frauds:

Little or no light during the ignition. one thing in common in all witnesses is that they say they couldn't see well what was happening for whatever reason;

the "performer", the Patriarch, does the "trick" unseen by others. The fact that he is examined by non-orthodox authorities says nothing since many magicians also ask random people of the audience to examin them. There are several ways of hiding things that remain unoticed after examination;

mass hysteria. I'm not trying to be offensive here and I apologize if someone does get offended but I'm using as a literal technical description. Very sane, good and spiritual people may and do go into a hysterical state of mind when part of a crowd. The psychology of masses is entirely different from that of the individual - and a crowd of Sherlocks is much easier to deceive than one Sherlock only. A lot of people there are under greatly excited emotional states which make them prone to: believe things even with little or no evidence and be able to physically resist body damage (this has been vastly registered in many cases). This all amounts to the fact that the physical and psychological environment is ideal for light levels of self-hypnosis;

the chemicals that might be involved in self-ignating candles are not modern but natural and not too difficultly obtained;


And then, of course, we have to compare that with the miracles performed by Jesus Himself. First, none of them were regular, unconditional and non-stop. Second, all of them were done in plain sight even when they were discrete - even the Ressurrection; although noone saw the actual standing up, a lot of people did see Him dying and many more saw Him alive again; in fact, He *wanted* to show Himself to people after being dead; no secrecies or half-lights there. So the very miracles of God were all seen and not only their consequences. In an opposite way, the actual miracle of the Holy Fire is entirely unseen and only the consequences are seen (the secondary flames it ignates). Third, He Himself said that there wouldn't be miracles for display. Miracles are always related to advancing the Plan of God, never for show or just to make people believe - actually believing was a pre-condition for miracles most of the time. Finally, I've read a couple of sayings of the Fathers of the Desert that state that our faith should not be based upon miracles. In fact, we should avoid even wanting to see or have miracles to believe. A number of these sayings present us with monks being invited to participate in miracles and refusing. So "espectacle" miracles like the Holy Fire are the last thing I would expect from God as a miracle and it is pretty much like the deceiptive phenome they warn us about. It doesn't seem to me the kind of miracle we read about in the Bible. The closest ones are the ones in the desert during Exodus and still they lasted only 40 years and, again, were at plain sight, there was no crowd psychology prone situation most of the time - in fact, when they started getting too excited were the moments most of the miracles would be interrupted or they were warned they might be if they continued on that path. Truly, one may ask what all that situation of high passional excitement has of the hesicastic inner apatheia that is typical of Orthodoxy. To me, and I understand I may be wrong, it seems to be the direct opposite.

Plus, I do not think that, if it is a fraud, the patriarch is necessarily a bad person in supporting it. Let's put ourselves in his shoes. You are elected patriarch and then people tell you how to do the "trick". You are horrified, but would you dare reveal it and smash the faith of thousands of people who put their trust in that "miracle"? Would you be bold enough to be hated and even have your life at risk because many believers would then not believe *you* and demand at least your excomunication just because you are trying to "slander" a "holy miracle"? And that some others would want a more emphatic "elimination" of the "heretic" patriarch? Who would be bold enough to go trhough all that?

So, as I said, I am still skeptical about that and I don't know what could make me believe it is true. Help me God if it is.

[John Wilson]

And then, of course, we have to compare that with the miracles performed by Jesus Himself. First, none of them were regular, unconditional and non-stop.
There is another miracle which occurs annually every feast day of Epiphany (old calendar). When the bishop throws the cross into the Jordan river, some of the water begins to flow in the opposite direction, causing a great deal of turbulence in the water. Another miracle which occurs with monotonous regularity since Pentecost is the changing of bread and wine into the precious body and blood of our Lord Jesus every Divine Liturgy. Will you judge their validity by the same criteria you have just put forth?

Second, all of them were done in plain sight even when they were discrete - even the Ressurrection; although noone saw the actual standing up, a lot of people did see Him dying and many more saw Him alive again; in fact, He *wanted* to show Himself to people after being dead; no secrecies or half-lights there. So the very miracles of God were all seen and not only their consequences. In an opposite way, the actual miracle of the Holy Fire is entirely unseen and only the consequences are seen (the secondary flames it ignates).
The circumstances are such that only a couple of people can actually fit inside the tomb, so it is not by design that the coming of the Holy Fire inside the tomb is not able to be seen by others, however the Holy Fire manifests in other ways outside the tomb within the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and are visible to all present.

Third, He Himself said that there wouldn't be miracles for display.
I believe He said that those who asked for signs would not be given them. We have not asked for this miracle, nor have we (as a body) used it as evidence of the truth of Orthodoxy (though some individual members may have). For the most part we have simply treasured it and glorified God. It is only recently that it has become more widely known outside of Orthodoxy.

Miracles are always related to advancing the Plan of God, never for show or just to make people believe - actually believing was a pre-condition for miracles most of the time. Finally, I've read a couple of sayings of the Fathers of the Desert that state that our faith should not be based upon miracles. In fact, we should avoid even wanting to see or have miracles to believe. A number of these sayings present us with monks being invited to participate in miracles and refusing. So "espectacle" miracles like the Holy Fire are the last thing I would expect from God as a miracle and it is pretty much like the deceiptive phenome they warn us about. It doesn't seem to me the kind of miracle we read about in the Bible. The closest ones are the ones in the desert during Exodus and still they lasted only 40 years and, again, were at plain sight, there was no crowd psychology prone situation most of the time - in fact, when they started getting too excited were the moments most of the miracles would be interrupted or they were warned they might be if they continued on that path. Truly, one may ask what all that situation of high passional excitement has of the hesicastic inner apatheia that is typical of Orthodoxy. To me, and I understand I may be wrong, it seems to be the direct opposite.
Sometimes miracles are simply the overflow of God's grace upon those He loves. They do not have to have any purpose other than to remind us of His love for us, both as individuals and as a body.

Plus, I do not think that, if it is a fraud, the patriarch is necessarily a bad person in supporting it. Let's put ourselves in his shoes. You are elected patriarch and then people tell you how to do the "trick". You are horrified, but would you dare reveal it and smash the faith of thousands of people who put their trust in that "miracle"? Would you be bold enough to be hated and even have your life at risk because many believers would then not believe *you* and demand at least your excomunication just because you are trying to "slander" a "holy miracle"? And that some others would want a more emphatic "elimination" of the "heretic" patriarch? Who would be bold enough to go trhough all that?
You give us very little credit. Our faith in God in no way depends on this miracle or any other of the countless miracles God has performed in our lives. Our trust is not in miracles but in Christ who was crucified and rose from the dead. If it was a fraud, all the Patriarch would need to do is come out of the tomb empty handed saying that we have not been held worthy to receive the Holy Fire due to our many sins. This explanation would be immediately accepted as completely plausible because all things aside, it is absolutely true.

So, as I said, I am still skeptical about that and I don't know what could make me believe it is true. Help me God if it is.
I would suggest you not lose any sleep over it. Your salvation does not depend on whether or not you believe this miracle to be true. If it is something God wants you to accept then He will deal with it in His own good time. In the mean time it is probably an unnecessary distraction.

John

[Andreas Moran]

There is another miracle which occurs annually every feast day of Epiphany (old calendar). When the bishop throws the cross into the Jordan river, some of the water begins to flow in the opposite direction, causing a great deal of turbulence in the water.

I was thinking of this because a Lavra Father we know has seen this twice and attests its authenticity. He described the River Jordan literally changing direction immediately the cross is thrown in and flowing backwards for some ten minutes.


monotonous regularity

Forgive me: I understand the irony intended in the use of this expression in relation to the Eucharist but it feel nonetheless inappropriate.

The Holy Fire has occurred for centuries and modern suggestions for trickery therefore do not hold.


Your salvation does not depend on whether or not you believe this miracle to be true.

I only wonder whether rejection of a miracle wrought by God and instead attributed to man's trickery might not be counted a sin.

[Fabio Lins]

There is another miracle which occurs annually every feast day of Epiphany (old calendar). When the bishop throws the cross into the Jordan river, some of the water begins to flow in the opposite direction, causing a great deal of turbulence in the water.

I will check on that.


Another miracle which occurs with monotonous regularity since Pentecost is the changing of bread and wine into the precious body and blood of our Lord Jesus every Divine Liturgy. Will you judge their validity by the same criteria you have just put forth?

Of course. The big difference is that this one miracle that is montonous was clearly stated and ordered. Indeed, while all the other miracles that Our Lord said would be following Christians (thus, that we should not try to act as magicians who can produce them) the Eucharist is the only one that He says: "*Do* this in my memory". So yes, all other factors aside, if I were to count only the similitude with Scriptural miracles, the Eucharist still passes the test. And counting all the other factors it becomes even clearer that is perfectly as the other miracles: no condition for mass psychology, not even promise that its transformation would have visible side-effects, etc., etc.

Just as a side note, one of the sayings of the Fathers of the Desert I had in mind while writing was precisely about the Eucharistic transformation. Someone went to the father saying: "Come father, quick! The bread turned to a piece of flesh and the wine into physical blood!" And the father replied: "Nay, I must avoid even looking at it lest my faith start depending on shuch physical wonders".



The circumstances are such that only a couple of people can actually fit inside the tomb, so it is not by design

It does not really make any difference if it is by design or not. Be the actual place natural or not it is fitting for a trick.



We have not asked for this miracle

Are you saying that none of those who go there, just by going there, had not the desire to see it? They went much farther than merely asking; they went about looking for it in act instead of a mere mental thing.


nor have we (as a body) used it as evidence of the truth of Orthodoxy (though some individual members may have).

Some individuals certainly did and, I have never seen mention of it without stressing that it is something exclusive of Orthodoxy. That does seem apologetical to me. :)



Sometimes miracles are simply the overflow of God's grace upon those He loves. They do not have to have any purpose other than to remind us of His love for us, both as individuals and as a body.

I guess that what I said previously and what you're saying here is the same with different words. The fact is that not only miracles but everything God does towards us, even when he allows us to suffer - or to be deceived - is out of His love.


You give us very little credit. Our faith in God in no way depends on this miracle or any other of the countless miracles God has performed in our lives.

John, that may and probably is true about you. But it is not for a lot of people Orthodox or not. A lot of people, if not most, believe because something wonderful has happened to them, either a more serene miracle as simply finding confort and/or strength in circunstances of suffering or more striking ones like healings or even "holy fire"-like miracles, some personal, some collective.


If it was a fraud, all the Patriarch would need to do is come out of the tomb empty handed saying that we have not been held worthy to receive the Holy Fire due to our many sins. This explanation would be immediately accepted as completely plausible because all things aside, it is absolutely true.

Well, that's very rational but would so not happen. :) People, specially in crowds, get *very* dangerous when dissapointed in their innermost expectations. Case in point, the Entrance of the Lord in Jerusalem and the same crowds demanding His Crucifiction little later. At the very least, a lot of people would then say that it is not them who are unworthy but the Patriarc and that he should be deposed. Others would probably accuse him of not doing the proper ritual, of being a masson infiltrated, a crypto(heretic-of-choice), and of course one or two might take on their hands "solving" the case.


I would suggest you not lose any sleep over it. Your salvation does not depend on whether or not you believe this miracle to be true. If it is something God wants you to accept then He will deal with it in His own good time. In the mean time it is probably an unnecessary distraction.

John

I don't really. But when I come to think of it, I really do think that I may be wrong or that it might be one big stumbling bock in the future for the faith of many *if* it is actually a fraud and someone one day proves that. I know that for me, and I think that for you too, it would make absolutely no difference at all. I know miracles may and do happen and I've seen many of the more "serene" ones as I have said.

As for being a sin not believing a miracle, it depends on the miracle and the context I guess. St. Thomas did not believe the Ressurrection itself. But when he saw the Lord in person he believed. I think that disbelieving even though seeing the Lord would have been a "sin against the Spirit" maybe. I don't know. What I know is that although many people see in this passage a urge to believe without seeing, I see (and I prayed a lot to St. Thomas in my conversion) that the Lord does not shun sincere, honest doubt even though He acknowledges the weakness in faith in them. And, truth be said, doubting Thomas was the first to say directly that Jesus was fully God. :)

[John Wilson]

Are you saying that none of those who go there, just by going there, had not the desire to see it? They went much farther than merely asking; they went about looking for it in act instead of a mere mental thing.This is not what Christ spoke of however. We have not gone there demanding a sign. The sign comes, so we go to venerate the sign and worship God.

Some individuals certainly did and, I have never seen mention of it without stressing that it is something exclusive of Orthodoxy. That does seem apologetical to me. :)
It is not something I will engage in because I don't believe such arguments present Orthodoxy in a particularly positive light. With Catholics I might point out that it was a miracle we once held in common until the schism, but it is not something I would use with Protestants.

Well, that's very rational but would so not happen. :) People, specially in crowds, get *very* dangerous when dissapointed in their innermost expectations. Case in point, the Entrance of the Lord in Jerusalem and the same crowds demanding His Crucifiction little later. At the very least, a lot of people would then say that it is not them who are unworthy but the Patriarc and that he should be deposed. Others would probably accuse him of not doing the proper ritual, of being a masson infiltrated, a crypto(heretic-of-choice), and of course one or two might take on their hands "solving" the case.
I am sure there is a rowdy element in every crowd, but all of the people I know who have gone to Jerusalem for Pascha to experience for themselves the miracle of the Holy Fire are among the most pious people I have met, and I believe such people make up the majority of those present. I believe the response I have posited would be true of them. Also, this miracle has been occurring every year for centuries. It is unlikely that every Patriarch who has sat on the throne in Jerusalem has been a shining example of Christian humility and piety. Worthy or not, the Holy Fire still comes and again you give us very little credit.

I don't really. But when I come to think of it, I really do think that I may be wrong or that it might be one big stumbling bock in the future for the faith of many *if* it is actually a fraud and someone one day proves that. I know that for me, and I think that for you too, it would make absolutely no difference at all. I know miracles may and do happen and I've seen many of the more "serene" ones as I have said. The Church declares that this miracle is genuine, so what it really comes down to is trusting the Church. This doesn't have to happen all at once. The Church is very patient.

John

[Matthew]

I find this thread very interesting.

I only recently heard about the Ἃγιον Φῶς.

It reminds me of the myrrh sent that I smelled when I venerated the pillar of flagellation in the Chapel of Saint George, or a similar scent from the myrrh-flowing relics of Saint Demetrios in his church in Thessoliniki.

I had the same conclusion: either someone is creating an ongoing hoax by perfuming these relics on a regular basis, or they are miraculous. Personally, I believe that they're miraculous. And they're different from the holy fire miracle in a number of ways.

I appreciate Fabio's analysis, and John's and Andreas's rebuttals.