Persecution of the heretics

[Vitalis]

I've been reading the book written by St. Joseph of Volokolam and Volotsk called "The Enlightener". In his book he argues for persecution and execution of heretics by providing many passages from the lives of saints, history, and Scripture. I wanted to find out what people generally think of this. For now I have a general mixed view on this. I most certainly convinced that the persecution of heretics must be severe, since his quotes from the Holy Fathers are quite straightforward on this.

For now I will post an excerpt from an article that I found that is related to this:

Thou shalt not kill" obviously has its exceptions. We shall first look at the warrior saints of our Church. As honest Christians they served their countries often engaging in battles that required killing of people. The Byzantine and Russian empires obviously came to be through conquering, which alot of the times requered killing. When the Russians were getting rid of the Tatar and Mongol invaders, it required killing. St. Sergius of Radonezh blessed the troops to do so. He even blessed his two great-schema monks to participate in battle as warriors. St. Andrew Peresvet laid his life and killed Mamai. He did this not because he hated him, but because he loved his people, who would have died from Mamai's hand. There is nothing ungodly in what they did. Many other saints of the Holy Rus' were warriors, yet they were glorified as saints. In general the Apostle did not forbid Christians to join the army. Thus, certain institutions were blessed by the Holy spirit to take other people's lives under certain circumstances. If the regular warriors are allowed to do so, the Kings and Czars are obviously also receive that authority, since they "are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well" (1 Peter 2:14) Czar "is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil" (Romans 13:14). If the warriors are allowed to take lives in order to protect their people and if the kings are allowed to take the lives of their subjects for certain crimes, how do we then think that ending the lives of those who not only kill bodies but also kill souls is unjust? Heretics are then must be punished and, if needed, executed more than anyone else, since they kill innocent Christian souls.

A little later I will translate a few passages from the Enlightener for those who have not read it or can't because of the language (I don't think it has ever been translated). Here come a few small points from his book. St. Theodore of Edessa traveled to the king to ask him to execute the heretics, because they were leading many Orthodox to fall into their false teachings. St. John Chrysostom told the Orthodox Christians to use violence if needed to stop the heretics from spreading their blasphemy, so that they might be "afraid of even shadows when they hear Christians somewhere". Holy apostles Peter, Paul, and John killed blasphemers and pagans through the power of the their prayer. St. Leo the Great prayed to God that he might stop the spread of heresy, and within 40 days St. Marcian slayed as many as he could. The same saint persecuted heretics severely. Same can be said about St. Constantine and many other pious rulers. There quite a few other examples on this issue. But those I found the most convincing.

[Matthew Namee]

I love and venerate St. Joseph of Volokolamsk. Once upon a time, because of his advocation of such things as these, I felt that he should not be venerated. However, I have since come to recognize him as a true saint.

However, I still disagree strongly with the assertion that heretics should be persecuted and/or executed. This is connected to my view that capital punishment is un-Christian (another issue entirely), but I also feel that killing heretics is, frankly, counterproductive and detrimental to the overall mission of the Church.

[Vitalis]

Well St. Joseph did get to see the Holy Theotokos herself =) So I think there might be a good reason there to venerate him.

At his time, heretics were spreading their filth around. They converted many souls, thus killing their souls. Persecution and at times execution was necessary to stop it from spreading.


The first great emperor equal-to-the-apostles Constantine established a law in all of his domain that those who did not believe in the Holy Life-giving Trinity must die the most brutal death and their houses allowed to be pillaged. The holy fathers of the First Ecumenical Council did not forbid this. Saint Alexander the patriarch of Constantinopole caused Arias' belly to sprawl by the power of prayer.The heretic Aetius became mute and then died in seven days by the power of word of Saint Epiphanius of Cyprus The pious emperor St. Marcian condemned Dioscorus the patriarch of Alexandria to death and did not kill him with a sword but exiled him to Gangra (St. Joseph called it 'Has' island) island, where no one could live even for a year, because everyone died a ferocious death due to mortal winds. Here Dioscorus and all of his confederates emitted their spirits in terrifying torments. But the holy fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical councils did not prevent this. The pious emperor Justin and Tiberius cut the heads of Addus and Eleutherius, advocates of the heresy. But the great miracle-worker St. Eutychius the patriarch of Constantinople did not try to prevent this. The great emperor Heraclius ordered to kill the jews which did not want to baptized and none of the great patriarchs, hierarchs and venerable fathers that lived during that time did not try to prevent it. Saint Theodore the bishop of Edessa made one Jew mute by the power of his word for blaspheming our Lord Jesus Christ and then begged the ruler of Babylon, who send troops to Edessa and ordered to banish all the heretics from the city and confiscate their riches, and to cut off the tongues of some, and the saint did not put an end to that. Same way Saint Theodora and her son Michael imprisoned the heretic Jannes (meaning John VII the Grammarian the patriarch of Constantinople, an iconoclast, nicknamed Jannes after one of the opponents of the Holy prophet Moses) the patriarch of Constantinople and then ordered to stretch him out to whip him with straps. But the blessed patriarch Methodius and many other venerable fathers and confessors did not prevent it. And Saint Leo the bishop of Catan made it so the heretic Heliodorus was burned by fire.


Saint Joseph also reminds us:

St. Athanasius the Great writes the following about those, who commit mortal sins. First he mentions the prophets and the righteous of the Old Testament, which killed with weapons and with prayer. In such a way, Moses conquered the pharaoh with prayer but others with weapons. The great among the prophets Elijah burned the two troops with fire after praying but then also killed 400 foul priests with an axe. Joshua destroyed the walls of Jericho with prayer but killed those inside of the city with a sword. Then saint Athanasius mentions the Holy chief Apostles Peter and Paul. In such a way, Peter put Ananias and Sapphire to death with word and power given to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit. St. Paul put the sorcerer, Alexander the coppersmith, Hymenaeus and Philetus to painful execution by word.See, St. Athanasius the Great did not differentiate between killing with arms and putting the guilty to death or execution through prayer. If it would not be appropriate to put heretics and renegades to death and executions, then the holy Apostles, our holy hierarchs and venerable fathers would not kill by prayer and the power given to them by God, since a death as a result of prayer is more miserable, then one from a weapon. If a prayer led to death then it is obvious that the guilty one was judged to death by God: "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!" (Hebrews 10:31). Death by weapon often occurs due to a human intention and is not as terrifying as death as a result of a prayer for the reasonable ones, since a man looks at the face but God looks at the heart.

And let us not forget the words of St. John Chrysostom, who St. Joseph quotes:

If someone will kill in accordance to the will of God - this murder will be better than any compassion. If someone will show mercy out of compassion but against the will of God, such a compassion is meaner than any murder. It is not the nature of things but God's judgment that makes things good or bad.


If you will have to beat him (a heretic), do not avert but slap him across the face, break his jaw, consecrate your hand with a wound.

[Herman Blaydoe]

This is why I thank God on a daily basis that I do not live in a Talibanesque theocracy. Who, exactly gets to decide what constitutes heresy? Anybody remember when the civil authority decided that the followers of Christ were heretics? Or how about when the Byzantine emperors thought that icons were heretical?

What would happen to the Church as a whole if the "authorities" decided that perhaps following the Old Calendar somehow was heretical and deserving of death?

There are many people who die that deserve to live, and many who live who deserve to die. If we cannot give life back to those who deserve to live, must we be so ready to give out death?

There was once a military organization that had the motto: "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out." Perhaps we ought to let them all live and let God sort it all out. I have enough to worry about keeping myself on the straight and narrow without having to decide who is deserving of life or death, and glad that the Lord has given me far more than I deserve. I don't see any reason to not pass on the favor to those around me and let them keep living, regardless of what they believe. But that might just be me.

Herman the Pooh

[Yuri Zharikov]

Somebody may correct me, but I think St. Joseph's rhetoric was aimed at and against the herecy of judizers, which having established itself in Novgorod in late 1400s spread to the royal court in Moscow and was probably rather close to overtaking the Church and the upper echelons of the society. This indeed would mean perdition of many souls. St. Joseph and St. Gennadius of Novgorod were among the few (in the whole country) who readily recognised this. Thus the zeal with which St. Joseph writes about "heretics" in general may well reflect his encounter with the particular herecy of the judizers and the fear for the souls of many. Again, this is only my opinion.

[Andreas Moran]

Yuri is right - my wife read a book about this not long ago. The sect was led by the jew Skhariya and briefly flourished in Moscow and Novgorod. St Joseph and Archbishop Gennady, as Yuri says, led the attack against the sect. Skhariya was executed on the orders of Ivan III. Some of his followers were executed or burned at the stake. Such treatment of heretics was, of course, usual in Europe for many centuries, not least in England. Catherine Murphy was the last person burned at the stake in England, in 1789 at Newgate, London. That was for treason, not heresy, though these may have meant much the same thing in earlier times. We have moved on. St Joseph is a saint of the Church but I find St Nil Sorsky a more attractive character.

[Michael Stickles]

If the warriors are allowed to take lives in order to protect their people and if the kings are allowed to take the lives of their subjects for certain crimes, how do we then think that ending the lives of those who not only kill bodies but also kill souls is unjust? Heretics are then must be punished and, if needed, executed more than anyone else, since they kill innocent Christian souls.

It seems to me that, in order to use this as justification for the execution of heretics, you would have to accept the following premises:

(1) The heretics are beyond any possibility of repentance and restoration to the Church; and
(2) Those they infect with their heresies have indeed had their souls "killed" and are also beyond hope of restoration.

That kind of discernment is the province of the saints and prophets; it is definitely beyond my feeble abilities. But to the best of my knowledge, none of our more recent saints (I believe St. Joseph reposed around 1515) have made any calls for execution of heretics, or have tried to justify the killing of heretics, so I find it reasonable to assume that those conditions do not generally hold true nowadays.

Also, it seems that a full consideration of St. Joseph's views would have to include the views of his contemporary, St. Nilus of Sora (http://www.iocc.org/orthodoxdiakonia/content/Saint%20Nilus%20of%20Sora.pdf), who resolutely opposed corporal punishment and execution for heretics, and questioned the use of any means of opposition and correction besides admonition, example, and prayer. St. Nilus "taught quite uncompromisingly that the human conscience must be free and that none should be persecuted for his religious views." He based his ideas not on detailed exegesis from the fathers, but on the notions of Christian forgiveness and charity and on the example of Christ. Interesting that both are recognized as saints, and apparently respected each other (the OCA site's Lives of the Saints notes that St. Joseph would send his disciples to St. Nilus to study inner prayer under his direction).

Finally, don't forget when all this was taking place. The Spanish Inquisition had begun not many years prior to the debate over how to handle the Judaizing heretics in Russia. "Preserving orthodoxy through execution" seems to have been the "spirit of the times", so to speak.

In Christ,
Mike

[Matthew Namee]

Finally, don't forget when all this was taking place. The Spanish Inquisition had begun not many years prior to the debate over how to handle the Judaizing heretics in Russia. "Preserving orthodoxy through execution" seems to have been the "spirit of the times", so to speak.
I agree, it is essential to consider the context in which St. Joseph was writing. Yuri and Andreas have pointed out the dangers of the judaizers in Russia at that time. Mike has made the good observation that differing opinions did exist, with St. Nil Sorsky the leading example. But the world in which St. Joseph lived was indeed a more violent world, on a day-to-day basis, than our (western) world today. Death, in general, was more a part of the fabric of life than it is for most of us today (what with plagues and sicknesses of various kinds, hunger, infant mortality, women dying in childbirth, mauraders, etc). Heretics were also persecuted and executed in the Byzantine Empire. I think it was generally understood that if you professed a belief which stood in contrast to the prevailing religion, you placed your life in danger. Thankfully, we live under different conditions today.

[Andreas Moran]

You didn't have to be a heretic to get into trouble. St Maximos the Confessor had his right hand cut off and his tongue torn out. He was justified not very long after. St Maxim Grek suffered appallingly from the Russians who suspected him of heresy when all he was trying to do was correct Slavonic translations from the Greek. I venerated his relics at the Holy Trinity St Sergius Lavra and whispered how sorry I was that he suffered so much for the truth. I feel he heard me.

(Note: in case anyone was wondering, St Nilus of Sora and St Nil Sorsky are one and the same saint.)

[Misha]

A recently reposed great elder and miracleworker in Greece,fr.Iakovos of st David's Monastery said that in Church's catalogues there are "saints" who are not really saints.

st.Nilus of Sora was a holy man,follower of the hesychastic tradition and so opposed to Church's secularization and supporter of the poor russian peasants.

Those who are in favor of the persecution or,even worse, the execution of the heretics or "heretics" don't differ from the Pharisees who crucified our Lord as blasphemous and heretic.


In the orthodox church there wasn't and there can't be a kind of Saria (islamic law) or Holy inquisition.

The Church keeps as the holiest treasure the Love for the ,so called,Enemies.This won't change till the end of ages,no matter what some priests claim from time to time.

[Yuri Zharikov]

Getting off the topic here, but the humility, forebearing and faith of St. Maximus the Greek really struck me when I learned about his life. I think his faith in Truth, if the comparison is appropriate, was greater even than that of the martyrs of the first three centuries. His words of rebuke to the people of high society in Moscow of that time that got lodged in my memory are: you say - oh Sweet Jesus - and His commandments are bitter for you; you sing - rejoyce of Theotokos the Virgin - and yourselves you inbitter your neighbours.
To add to what Andreas said, St. Maximus got into trouble with the authorities when he advised Prince Basil III against divorcing his first wife to marry Elena Glinskaya (future mother of Ivan IV the Formidable) in the most unambiguous words, saying that a God-loving, pious Tzar may not behave like a "horse in heat". The charges of book spoiling were brought in later by the ill-wishers when they saw that St. Maximus fell out of favour.
Remarkably, St. Maximus did not try to defend himself but instead accepted all the guilt and begged forgiveness.

[Andrew James]

A recently reposed great elder and miracleworker in Greece,fr.Iakovos of st David's Monastery said that in Church's catalogues there are "saints" who are not really saints.

st.Nilus of Sora was a holy man,follower of the hesychastic tradition and so opposed to Church's secularization and supporter of the poor russian peasants.

Those who are in favor of the persecution or,even worse, the execution of the heretics or "heretics" don't differ from the Pharisees who crucified our Lord as blasphemous and heretic.


In the orthodox church there wasn't and there can't be a kind of Saria (islamic law) or Holy inquisition.

The Church keeps as the holiest treasure the Love for the ,so called,Enemies.This won't change till the end of ages,no matter what some priests claim from time to time.


I agree that St. Joseph of Volokolamsk is in error, and that to promote going around killing heretics is to show a lack of compassion. However, in this saint's honest love for Christ and truth, he clearly stepped over the line. But we should not therefore feel he is not a saint.

Saints sometimes fall into extremes or even error. Think of St. Augustine of Hippo, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Cyril of Alexandria to name a few.

[Moses Ibrahim]

Its very possible that this Saint made a mistake.

However the possibility of heretics destroying the souls of countless Orthodox is also a huge mistake to leave be. But each case should be looked at differently, not all heretics are the same. Every case is different, as St. Paul converted and repented for his slaughtering of the Christians, so did many other heretics repent, but others like Nestorius and Arius did not, even though they were reproached many times (and God sent Angels to slay and disembowel these two heretics for the hatred and schisms they sowed in the Church). I personally think in some cases it is better to kill a heretic than for the Church to fall apart (even though we know that the gates of hell will not prevail against it, some people are still bound to be lead astray).

Just going to post this one incident where St. Leo had the heretic Heliodorus killed in the fire. God could have very well saved Heliodorus, but St. Leo was righteous before God and his killing of Heliodorus was justified in the eyes of God.

When St Leo was Bishop of Catania, there was a certain sorcerer named Heliodorus, who impressed people with his fake miracles. This fellow was originally a Christian, but then he rejected Christ and became a servant of the devil. St Leo often urged Heliodorus to repent of his wicked deeds and return to God, but in vain. Once, Heliodorus impudently entered the church where the bishop was serving, and tried to create a disturbance, sowing confusion and temptation by his sorcery. Seeing the people beset by devils under the sorcer's spell, St Leo realized that the time for gentle persuasion had passed. He calmly emerged from the altar and, tying his omophorion around the magician's neck, he led him out of the church into the city square. There he forced Heliodorus to admit to all his wicked deeds. He commanded that a fire be lit, and jumped into the fire with the sorcerer. Thus they stood in the fire until Heliodorus got burnt. St Leo, by the power of God, remained unharmed. This miracle brought St Leo great renown during his lifetime.

[Vitalis]

It seems to me that, in order to use this as justification for the execution of heretics, you would have to accept the following premises:

(1) The heretics are beyond any possibility of repentance and restoration to the Church; and
(2) Those they infect with their heresies have indeed had their souls "killed" and are also beyond hope of restoration.


The heretics are not beyond the possibility of repentance. Nothing that St. Joseph wrote states that.



Also, it seems that a full consideration of St. Joseph's views would have to include the views of his contemporary, St. Nilus of Sora (http://www.iocc.org/orthodoxdiakonia/content/Saint%20Nilus%20of%20Sora.pdf), who resolutely opposed corporal punishment and execution for heretics, and questioned the use of any means of opposition and correction besides admonition, example, and prayer.


Concerning St. Nilus, it is a rather wrong opinion that their views were opposed on this issue. St. Nilus actually wrote many parts of the Enlightener. St. Joseph, on the other hand, had almost all of St. Nilus' writings in his monastery for people to read. St. Nilus was not opposed to carpal punishment. OCA website quotes the old liberal analysis of the 19th century historians. That analysis was very much influenced by the ideas of symbolism and other liberal ideologies. The deepest research on this was done by Vadim Kozhinov, who refutes such misinterpretations of the writings of St. Nilus. If anyone can read russian, the article can be found here (http://www.patriotica.ru/books/kozh_slovo/sl_08.html). It is generally funny to see how most of the things written here about St. Nilus is taken somewhat from wikipedia.


I agree that St. Joseph of Volokolamsk is in error, and that to promote going around killing heretics is to show a lack of compassion.

St. Joseph has never promoted "going around killing heretics". He promoted killing the heretics, when this heresy was taking over the whole northern Russia. He mentions again and again that killing should only take place when the heretics are killing the souls of other people by making them fall into heresies. In his book he gives many examples of how saints did not act until heretics would make other Christians join them. St. Joseph mentions that it is wrong to see his view on the topic as lacking compassion. He says that those who do not want to stop the heresy are the ones that lack compassion. Just like with ecumenism, our leaders choose to show a lot of love for heretics, but show little concern for their fellow Christians. St. Joseph does not write any of this out hate. Christian love is not about hugs and kisses. It is about salvation.

I was hoping for more concrete arguments with proof from the Holy Fathers. At least more concrete refutations of the evidence that St. Joseph presents. Let us not forget, who St. Joseph was. He was a person, who dedicated his whole life to asceticism. The least we can do is show a little humility and remember that we have a worldly understanding, while St. Joseph cleared his mind through fast, prayer, vigil, and labor.

[Andrew James]

The heretics are not beyond the possibility of repentance. Nothing that St. Joseph wrote states that.



I believe Mike was referring to the statement of how the heretics were "killing souls". He was trying to say that if those people later repented, than the heretics would not have accomplished the murder of any souls. Basically as long as those people were still alive, the heretics had yet to murder a soul.

[Misha]

If we put in use the argument :"we kill heretics because they kill souls",then we just repeat Pharisees way of thinking :
Then one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said, “You know nothing at all!You do not realize that it is more to your advantage to have one man die for the people than for the whole nation to perish.”(John 11,49) which lead to our Lord's suffering.

This way of thinking will lead to religious fanaticism and is absolutely contrary to the spirit of Christ's teachings and the therapeutic/hesychastic tradition of our Church.

from:http://www.iocc.org/orthodoxdiakonia/content/Saint%20Nilus%20of%20Sora.pdf

"He strongly defended the Inquisitional treatment of heretics by excommunicating and turning them over to civil
authority to be burned alive. He justified the use of civil authority in these matters as a way to defend the Christian
state and the rule of the authorities that were in power because of the grace of God. He tried to persuade the
authorities that if the heretics were allowed to live then the very existence of their rule was threatened. Joseph
was a studious, well-read scholar.
He was well versed in both the Bible and Patristic fathers and presented a convincing case against the heretics.
The last four chapters of the Enlightener dealt specifically with the reasons why corporal punishment and
execution should be followed by the church in regards the Judaizers"

"Both Paisius Yaroslavov (an honored Russian starets and thought by many to be Nilus' teacher in Russia) and
Nilus were present at the Synod of 1490. They were known to opposed both the secular persecution and ecclesiastic trial of heretics. And both when dealing with infractions by both monks and the laity always counselled forgiveness and charity."

Anyone who has read st Nilus writings can easily understand that this holy man couldn't support the use of physical violence against anyone.

[Vitalis]

Nilus were present at the Synod of 1490. They were known to opposed both the secular persecution and ecclesiastic trial of heretics. And both when dealing with infractions by both monks and the laity always counselled forgiveness and charityThere's not a single epistle from St. Nilus that shows his opposition. The sources that the liberal historians base their opinion on are the writings that were written way after the events. For instance one of them says that St. Nilus came with his student Paisius to denounce the ideas of St. Joseph. However, his student Paisius died before the council took place. Moreover, in his "Predanie" or "Legend" he says: "Everyone with me and I damn the heretical teachings and legends". St. Nilus made copies of the Enlightener with his own hands. In any case, this is off topic, so I won't go further. Hopefully the work of Kozhinov, Prokhorov (who did the most extensive analysis of his life and compiled all of his works), and many other historians will be translated into English.


Basically as long as those people were still aliveWell when St. Dimitrius, St. Andrew, St. Alexander and their troops went to kill the Tatars did they need to think that there's a possibility that the Tatars all might convert? When St. Alexander of Neva went to slay the Germans did he also need to think about whether or not they might convert to Orthodoxy? No, first and foremost they thought about their fellow Orthodox Christians.

Anyway, I am going to stop arguing, because it will go nowhere. I just want to repeat what St. John Chrysostom said and give two other related quotes from St. Anthony the Great. I want to apologize right away, since I do not have anything that I quote in English, I have to translate and I realize these translations are not that great.

As I wrote earlier:

If someone will kill in accordance to the will of God - this murder will be better than any compassion. If someone will show mercy out of compassion but against the will of God, such a compassion is meaner than any murder. It is not the nature of things but God's judgment that makes things good or bad.It makes perfect sense how heretics can be killed. If Christians soldiers were allowed to kill, how then civil authorities are not allowed to kill heretics that are way worse than anyone that a soldier would fight against?

Anyway, here are two quotes from St. Anthony from "Precept on good morals and holy life in 170 chapters", which I think relate:


69. We should not get angry at those who sin, even if the delinquencies they commit are worthy of punishment. The guilty ones must be, for the sake of truth, turned back (to the path of truth) and punished , if needed, either by yourselves or through others. However, we should not be angry or cross with them, since the anger is acting only through passions but not according to judgment and truth. We should not approve those that are compassionate more than needed, but at the same time, the bad ones must be punished for the sake of goodness and truth, not for the sake of one's anger.
81. If you have much authority, do not threaten someone with death right away, knowing that you yourself are subjected to death and that every soul, will take off its body like its last garmentI think, at the end we should just all learn from these events and take care of ourselves and others so that they do not leave Orthodoxy and abandon it for a heresy. We no longer have the advantage of having Orthodox emperors. It is up to us to grow our children and try to preserve our friends from atheism and other false teachings. May God deliver us from this!

Forgive me for the sake of Christ!

[Andrew James]

Well when St. Dimitrius, St. Andrew, St. Alexander and their troops went to kill the Tatars did they need to think that there's a possibility that the Tatars all might convert? When St. Alexander of Neva went to slay the Germans did he also need to think about whether or not they might convert to Orthodoxy? No, first and foremost they thought about their fellow Orthodox Christians.

Yes, but they were reacting to immediate danger. They did not have the luxury of exiling or jailing their enemies. When you have such a luxury at hand, it should be utilized far before any means of violence are.

[Michael Stickles]

Concerning St. Nilus, it is a rather wrong opinion that their views were opposed on this issue. St. Nilus actually wrote many parts of the Enlightener. St. Joseph, on the other hand, had almost all of St. Nilus' writings in his monastery for people to read. St. Nilus was not opposed to carpal punishment. OCA website quotes the old liberal analysis of the 19th century historians. That analysis was very much influenced by the ideas of symbolism and other liberal ideologies. The deepest research on this was done by Vadim Kozhinov, who refutes such misinterpretations of the writings of St. Nilus. If anyone can read russian, the article can be found here (http://www.patriotica.ru/books/kozh_slovo/sl_08.html). It is generally funny to see how most of the things written here about St. Nilus is taken somewhat from wikipedia.

Actually, I completely ignore Wikipedia when it comes to research. While I only gave one link, multiple Orthodox sites I checked were in perfect agreement as to St. Nilus' opposition to St. Joseph's stance on how to deal with heretics, and none credited him with writing any part of the Enlightener. Since I can't read Russian, I'll have to wait for the page you linked to be translated into English before I can evaluate that claim compared to what I've read elsewhere.

Since the content of St. Nilus' testimony is contested, let us turn to another father of the Church. I have so far been unable to find among St. John Chrysostom's writings the quotes which you said that St. Joseph attributed to him (though I'm sure I haven't searched all his writings yet). But in any case, that St. Chrysostom would oppose the execution of heretics seems clear from what he says in his 46th Homily on Matthew (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.XLVI.html):


But what means, “Lest ye root up the wheat with them?” Either He means this, If ye are to take up arms, and to kill the heretics, many of the saints also must needs be overthrown with them; or that of the very tares it is likely that many may change and become wheat. If therefore ye root them up beforehand, ye injure that which is to become wheat, slaying some, in whom there is yet room for change and improvement. He doth not therefore forbid our checking heretics, and stopping their mouths, and taking away their freedom of speech, and breaking up their assemblies and confederacies, but our killing and slaying them.

But mark thou His gentleness, how He not only gives sentence and forbids, but sets down reasons.

What then, if the tares should remain until the end? “Then I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them.” He again reminds them of John’s words, introducing Him as judge; and He saith, So long as they stand by the wheat, we must spare them, for it is possible for them even to become wheat but when they have departed, having profited nothing, then of necessity the inexorable punishment will overtake them.

Numerous saints have spoken of the permissibility of killing in warfare, but aside from St. Joseph Volokolamsky I have seen none who outside of warfare advocated killing heretics. They have penned heated invective, urged deposition, banishment, excommunication, expulsion from the clergy, and various other actions, but not execution.

The passages you quote from St. Joseph would seem to indicate otherwise, but frankly, I haven't been able to confirm any of those stories so far. One of the quotes says:


The first great emperor equal-to-the-apostles Constantine established a law in all of his domain that those who did not believe in the Holy Life-giving Trinity must die the most brutal death and their houses allowed to be pillaged.

Yet, in the copy I've read of St. Constantine's "Edict against the Heretics," no mention is made of execution, but rather simply of depriving them of their meeting-places. I investigated a couple of St. Joseph's other examples of alleged patristic approval of the execution of heretics, and likewise could not find any independent confirmation of them. While I may simply be missing something (and I admittedly haven't come close to exhaustively researching all of them), I can't help but wonder about the accuracy of the sources he had available, from which he drew those examples.

In Christ,
Mike

[Matthew Namee]

Yes, but they were reacting to immediate danger. They did not have the luxury of exiling or jailing their enemies. When you have such a luxury at hand, it should be utilized far before any means of violence are.
I agree completely. The "justification" for killing in battle is in large part due to the imminent danger posed by the enemy. If you don't kill him, he'll kill you and others. But once you have someone in custody, it becomes quite a different matter. They are defenseless, and you can physically control their movements. In this case, killing is not in self-defense but for other purposes entirely.

With regard to heretics, by all means, they are dangerous. But for heaven's sake, "killing the soul" is very different than "killing the body." Anyway, many things besides heresy are extremely harmful to the soul. Should, for instance, those who gossip be executed for tempting others into sin? I certainly hope not. Yet I would imagine that many more Orthodox Christians fall to the sin of gossip and judgment of others than to the sin of heresy.

I do recognize that, in St. Joseph's time and place, heresy was (from what others here have said) a very imminent threat. I'd still hope to rely on education and example to preserve the people, rather than force, but would not simple exile have been enough? Does not killing the heretics provide them with martyrs and place us in the position of ending the life of a defenseless person? That person, even a heretic, is still made in the image of God. By killing anyone, we destroy a living icon. Perhaps in war this is unusually necessary, but it should be avoided if at all possible.

[Vitalis]

Imminent danger posed by the enemy.No, no this battle was one of the first that St. Dimitrius started to liberate Russia. The whole point of those multiple battles was to get rid of Tatars.


but our killing and slaying themI don't know if this is the same passage but here is what St. Joseph writes:


Let us say about other words of the same great Church teacher, St. John Chrysostom: "we should not kill the heretics, since if we would kill the heretics, the universe would be engaged in a never-ending war". The hierarch says this about the bishops, priests, monks and all the clergy, but not about princes and earthly judges. If he would be talking about the kings, princes, and judges, then he would say that it is not appropriate for the kings, princes, and judges to kill heretics. He, on the contrary, says: "If we would kill the heretics". This clearly shows that he is talking about the bishops, priests, monks, and lower clergy, since he himself was first part of the lower clergy and a monk, then a priest, and then a bishop. This is why he says on the behalf of all: "If we would kill the heretics, the universe would be engaged in a never-ending war", - but this is not at all said about kings or princes or judges"Well, I am sure in time you will able to confirm them. I don't think St. Joseph the wonder-worker is a lying babbler. I hope you don't either. I just think it's weird that we as worldly men are right in our thoughts and a great ascetic that was glorified isn't.


By killing anyone, we destroy a living iconAnd when we were liberating Holy Rus we were not killing a living icon? Plus as written in one of the articles...how do you think Byzantium and Rus' came to be? The whole point of those two empires was to spread Orthodoxy by expanding. Such expansions often required killing.

St. Athanasius to that says that heresy is the worse out of all the sins. Well...St. John would argue that schism is worse but you get the idea.

Now I guess, I should finally state my own thoughts on this.

I am not so much in favor of execution but I do think that at his time it was necessary. However, I do think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with persecuting heretics. Moreover, it would be an appropriate thing to do.

[Yuri Zharikov]

Unfortunately I do not have any reference material handy, but I believe it is fairly well established that of the two historiographies about the relationships between Sts Joseph and Nilus, it is the later, XIX c, secularised one (Kostomarov and others) that makes bitter opponents of them. The proper Church tradition sees the two saints as rather complementing each other:
“И ты, Иосифе, Волоцкая похвало, и Ниле нестяжателю, на воде покойне и на злаце воздержания ученик ваших стада мудре упасли есте, и ныне с ними молитеся о чтущих память вашу”.
"And you, Joseph, the praise and Volotsk and Nilus, the non-possessor, on the peaceful water and pastures of abstinence have wisely shepherded the flocks of your disciples, and now with them pray for those who venerate your memory" Song 6, Trop. 4 of the Canon to all Russian Saints.

[Vitalis]

Exactly, Yuri. That article I linked before also proves this historically. However, it is true that the two saints were quite different in their methods of theosis. Then again, it does not mean they contradict each other.

[Misha]

Let us say about other words of the same great Church teacher, St. John Chrysostom: "we should not kill the heretics, since if we would kill the heretics, the universe would be engaged in a never-ending war". The hierarch says this about the bishops, priests, monks and all the clergy, but not about princes and earthly judges. If he would be talking about the kings, princes, and judges, then he would say that it is not appropriate for the kings, princes, and judges to kill heretics. He, on the contrary, says: "If we would kill the heretics". This clearly shows that he is talking about the bishops, priests, monks, and lower clergy, since he himself was first part of the lower clergy and a monk, then a priest, and then a bishop. This is why he says on the behalf of all: "If we would kill the heretics, the universe would be engaged in a never-ending war", - but this is not at all said about kings or princes or judges"

I m sorry dear brothers but this is a misinterpretation of st.John's writings!
I have studied a lot about the hesychastic movement derived from the Great Cappadocs fathers,st.John Chrysostom,st.Symeon the New Theologian,st Gregory Palamas,st Paisius Velichkofsky,st Nicodemus of Mt Athos and the ,so called "kollyvades".

This tradition ,which is the heart of the orthodox church, denies to harm anyone!Killing ,even in war, leads to heavy ecclesiastical punishments.
If a priest kills in war then he can't serve liturgy anymore and if a layman does the same then he can't take Holy Communion for 3 yrs.

St John Chrysostom's saying has been recently repeated by a wise,non-christian man,the great Mahatma Ghandhi:
"Eye for an eye and soon the whole world will be blind"

[Andreas Moran]

Two issues have become confused here: persecution of heretics and defence of the homeland. It is worth recalling that St Dmitri Donskoi was only given a blessing by St Sergius to proceed against the Tataro-Mongols when he had assured St Sergius that all attempts to negotiate peace had failed.

[Misha]

During the 1000 yrs of the Eastern Roman Empire many emperors considered the Orthodox Church as "heretic" and persecuted the orthodox christians.
So did the pagans emperors of Rome some centuries before
We venerate thousands of holy martyrs who gave their lives because they insisted to what the official state considered as "heresy"..
If we apply the same cruel methods and persecute or execute the "heretics" what do we differ from them?
Holy Inquisition was a horrible period of humankind's history and now we want to justify its crimes?Or ,even worse,do we suggest to repeat it in an "orthodox" version?
and this is the will of God or....?

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it"(John 8,44)

[Herman Blaydoe]

Generally speaking, I have found that killing people in large numbers, even for the "right" reasons, can be rather problematic. For one thing, it is very hard to keep under control, and before you know it, you have people going around and killing for no reason at all and this gets very messy. It can be very hard to stop. Not to mention the disruptions in services, because suddenly you find out that those same heretics were doing essential jobs. Next thing you know, the busses aren't running or you can't get a decent cut of meat (the butchers are all dead or out killing people). Professionals seem to get eliminated in disproportionate numbers as well. Suddenly there are no accountants or lawyers or doctors or machinists and the plants start closing. You can't even bury all the bodies because all the grave diggers and funeral directors have left the country! It can be very bad for business and the economy, not to mention when the tourism falls off.

So, regardless of what the good saint says, I say that persecution of anybody, for any reason, is generally a very bad idea and really should be avoided as much as possible. We should not persecute Moslems, or Hindus, Buddhists, or even Methodists, but instead show them forgiveness and love. More importantly we work to educate our own, giving them the tools necessary to resist the wiles of pernicious heresy. (2 Timothy 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.)

Fear is a very, very clumsy tool. It is the 18 lb sledgehammer when all you really need is a chip hammer. Any time you resort to violence it is a failure. You failed to achieve by other means.

Christ our Lord was not a violent man. Even when He said to carry a sword, He never advocated its proactive use.

States have difficult decisions to make. Sometimes even violence must be used to keep the peace. But I think it is a tool that is often brought out too soon, before other tools have been tried, simply because it is easy to swing a big hammer. The other tools require more finesse and skill. But then again, big hammers also require more skill than I think some people appreciate, otherwise there is simply too much collateral damage in the process. Again, it really upsets the tourists and makes for a bad image in the world press. Suddenly other nations start pointing fingers or worse, missiles, at your borders and they start treating your people like you are treating theirs and again, it just gets very messy.

So no, I cannot agree with the original premise that persecution of "heretics" (did we ever successfully define that word by the way?) is ever justified, especially for Orthodox Christians. I am deserving of death much more so than anybody else out there, certainly more than any poor misguided heretic, and yet God allows me to live. Again, I can only feel the need to share the favor with those around me, even Methodists.

Don't persecute. Really, just don't do it. Persecutions lead to very hard feelings which lead to violence which leads to killing which results in all those things I was talking about earlier. Help even those who believe differently than you do, Samaritans though they be. If you feel the need to persecute someone, come see me. I could use the blessing.

Your servant,
Herman (a former Methodist)

[Andreas Moran]

When Elder Paisios was at St Catherine's, Sinai, the little money he earned from his handiwork he gave to the local Berber muslims.


Generally speaking, I have found that killing people in large numbers, even for the "right" reasons, can be rather problematic. For one thing, it is very hard to keep under control, and before you know it, you have people going around and killing for no reason at all and this gets very messy. It can be very hard to stop. Not to mention the disruptions in services, because suddenly you find out that those same heretics were doing essential jobs. Next thing you know, the busses aren't running or you can't get a decent cut of meat (the butchers are all dead or out killing people). Professionals seem to get eliminated in disproportionate numbers as well. Suddenly there are no accountants or lawyers or doctors or machinists and the plants start closing. You can't even bury all the bodies because all the grave diggers and funeral directors have left the country! It can be very bad for business and the economy, not to mention when the tourism falls off.

Not messy if you use cruise missiles from a very safe distance and F 15s and F 117s from a great height as was done to Serbia in 1999. The arms manufacturers make money, and then your businessmen can get the contracts for reconstruction of the damage caused. Same in Iraq. Some of your own men get killed but, in the words of Donald Rumsfeld, 'hey - stuff happens!'

[Herman Blaydoe]

No, again you indirectly prove my point. Violence is a very clumsy tool, often used too soon, as your reaction proves.

I don't justify or deny mistakes that have been made. But this is NOT a political forum. If you must, I suggest we take this outside, sir.

[Andreas Moran]

Nowhere does A. A. Milne describe Pooh and Eeyore 'taking it outside'! But you surely didn't support what was done to Serbia, did you?

[Misha]

St Isaac the Syrian has written a chapter (no 58)about the "false zeal".
After a lot of search i m really happy to have some parts translated in english:

Let yourself be persecuted, but do not persecute others.
Be crucified, but do not crucify others.
Be slandered, but do not slander others.
Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep: such is the sign of purity.
Suffer with the sick.
Be afflicted with sinners.
Exult with those who repent.
Be the friend of all, but in your spirit remain alone.
Be a partaker of the sufferings of all, but keep your body distant from all.
Rebuke no one, revile no one, not even those who live very wickedly.
Spread your cloak over those who fall into sin, each and every one, and shield them.
And if you cannot take the fault on yourself and accept punishment in their placedo not destroy their character.

[Andreas Moran]

Thanks for that, Misha.

[Matthew Namee]

I am not so much in favor of execution but I do think that at his time it was necessary. However, I do think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with persecuting heretics. Moreover, it would be an appropriate thing to do.
It saddens me to hear such a thing. In the early days of the Church, when the Roman Empire was still pagan, non-Christians respected and were attracted to Christianity because its people were different -- virtuous, good, pious, sober, honest. Showing love towards others is the only way to soften their hearts and convert them to the true faith.

But let us say that we had a blessed, institutionalized persecution. What then? We would, as Herman suggests, have immediate logistical problems. How do you determine that someone is a heretic? Are all heretics to be persecuted, or only those who speak heresy openly? How do we prevent lynch mobs and other forms of chaos? Then there is the question of the heretics themselves. It is clear to me from history that, when people are persecuted or oppressed, they become more firm in their beliefs. We have inspiring examples of this in Orthodox history, but the same would be true of heretics. If they are persecuted, they will not honestly convert but instead will become even more intractable.

But what if they do convert? This is another serious problem. How do you know that they are truly converting because they believe in the Orthodox faith? It seems likely that many, if not most, who would convert would do so to avoid penalties. This, too, has been common in history. One example is that of the Cathari of France, who, persecuted by the papal inquisition, either became even firmer in their faith or "converted" to Roman Catholicism while in fact remaining Cathari. I'm sure there are examples of this in the Orthodox world as well.

I am of the firm belief that God is quite capable of killing (or hindering) whomever he wishes. My job is not to harm anyone "on God's behalf," as it were, but instead to live a God-fearing, Orthodox life myself. Did not St. Seraphim say that if one acquires the spirit of peace, thousands around him will be saved? We cannot convert the hearts of heretics, or retain our own vulnerable people, by violence and force. We can only seek to imitate Christ and hope by our example to have a positive effect on others.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Indeed, we (Orthodox Christianity) are living proof that persecution DOES NOT WORK!

Persecution is not a solution, it is a problem.

Don't do it. Really. Not even a little, even to Methodists.

Herman

[Vitalis]

It saddens me to hear such a thing

Does is sadden you that jewdizers converted many souls? The heresy was spreading at a very high pace. If not the persecution, many many souls would have fallen into this heresy. Unfortunately many did fall. Does the fact that those people are burning in hell fire for that sadden you a little? No? If Muslims would come to your house and started to convert your whole family? Would you sit there and watch? No, I am guessing you would try to kick them out of your house! They probably would not go willingly Would you say "Oh well!" and just go and watch TV? This is what St. Anthony the Great called "compassionate more than needed". When secular authorities persecuted the followers of Arias, Nestorius, and others none of the fathers felt sad enough to stop the persecutions. How about the Old Testament saints? Things like that are only sad for humanists. Do you curse Sts. Joshua, Moses,and Elijah for what they did? Pay in mind, that I am not saying that in an Orthodox Christian country all heretics must be persecuted, but only those, as St. Joseph says, that go around and spreading their filth. The quote from St. Isaac is very good. However, it does not refer to heretics. " Be crucified, but do not crucify others" when those who need to be crucified don't go around making others abandon Christ. "Rebuke no one, revile no one, not even those who live very wickedly." How about Apostles John, Peter, and Paul? Or how about when St. Nicholas ordered to destroy pagan temples? What about Saints that publically anathematized heretics. By the way, anathematizing someone at that time was basically condemning people to eternal hell. That is way more harsh that just killing a person's physical body. St. Anthony the Great did that and so did many others.

When the Apostle says: "if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" What do we do to justify that our priests have long hair? We say, the apostle talks about lay people. Same way St. Joseph uses what St. John said. It is a shame to grow long hair for lay people, but it is not for the chosen ones. Same way a Christian emperor "beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil", authority that was given to him by God, which not every person possess.

No, dear brother, what you are suggesting is false zeal of compassion, zeal not according to knowledge. St. Joseph was truly compassionate, he could not bare the fact that many souls would be led into hellfire.

Read St. John's 23rd homily on Romans and Homily 21.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Dear Rdr Vitalis,

Excuse me, but I think you are confused. We should leave the things that belong to Caesar alone. You are confusing the Church and the civil authority. They are not the same thing, and I am increasingly convinced by attitudes like yours that they should not be.

If the Judaizers were FORCING people to convert, or terrorizing the people, that is something else entirely, it becomes a civil matter rather than a Church matter.

As I said, you and I are living proof that persecution does not work. That which is persecuted only become stronger. It goes underground, the roots grow bigger and more extensive, spreading out and then popping up where you least expect it. The more you cut off the leaves, the more the roots grow, until at some point you just can't keep up with it.

It is the job of the emperor to wield the weapon of fear, not you. And I pray to God that the authorities do so in a God-fearing and compassionate manner and only as a last resort where other methods have failed. You and I are not Emperors, or civil authority, nor are we bishops, and I hope that you do not see yourself as some sort of spiritual enforcer, a religious police like the Moslems have. If so, I will not persecute you, but I will oppose you in every non-violent manner possible.

Besides, persecution is such hard work and interrupts nap time, and it is time for my nap. Oh Bother!

Herman the Pooh

[Moses Ibrahim]

The Holy Prophet Elijah ordered the death of those 50 baal worshippers. Sure it would have been better not to have killed them, but nonetheless he did. It would be better not to kill anyone today, but if it is the only option it would be better to kill one and save many. We have the oppurtunity to exile people to many places (jails in almost every city) so it would be better to send heretics there (but we don't live in an Orthodox Empire anymore). So, I guess it would be fairly impossible to have heretics killed now except with God's help. End of my imaginative story.

[Matthew Namee]

If Muslims would come to your house and started to convert your whole family? Would you sit there and watch? No, I am guessing you would try to kick them out of your house! They probably would not go willingly Would you say "Oh well!" and just go and watch TV?
If Muslims came to my house and started to attempt to convert my family, I would feel confident that my family would not be swayed by their efforts. My family is firm in their Orthodox faith and can tell the difference between right and wrong. This is precisely my point. If the Church properly educates its people, if the people are Orthodox in truth and not only in name, then the sophistries of heretics will have no effect. If your people are being converted to heresy, you've got a deeper problem than the proselytizing heretics. The success of heretics reveals the weaknesses that exist in the Church. We can combat them by shoring up these weaknesses, not by persecuting those who are exploiting them.

Also, examples from the Old Testament are irrelevant. The Old Testament prophets had to preserve Israel so as to make the birth of the Theotokos and the subsequent incarnation of the Lord possible. In addition, all the departed before Christ went to Hades, where they later had the opportunity to follow Christ. The nature of the afterlife has changed since the resurrection, and capital punishment has likewise taken on new consequences. All has changed with the coming of Christ.

Rdr. Vitalis, it is clear that you have already made up your mind on this issue. In your initial post, you wrote,


I wanted to find out what people generally think of this. For now I have a general mixed view on this.
Yet you seem uninterested in views which differ from your own predetermined position (which can hardly be described as "mixed"). This will be my last post on this thread, as it seems unlikely that further discussion will bear good fruit.

[Michael Stickles]

Does is sadden you that jewdizers converted many souls? The heresy was spreading at a very high pace. If not the persecution, many many souls would have fallen into this heresy. Unfortunately many did fall. Does the fact that those people are burning in hell fire for that? No? If Muslims would come to your house and started to convert your whole family? Would you sit there and watch? No, I am guessing you would try to kick them out of your house! They probably would not go willingly Would you say "Oh well!" and just go and watch TV? This is what St. Anthony the Great called "compassionate more than needed".

I would most certainly kick them out of my house, forthwith and posthaste. This, however, is not persecution, it is defense of my home and my family. If, however, I then followed them to their homes, smashed their cars and burned their books, that would be persecution. And that I see no warrant for.

In all of the readings I've done in the fathers since this thread began, outside of St. Joseph I have seen no call for any greater "persecutions" than these: to remove heretics from positions of influence in the Church; to excommunicate those who will not repent; and to call upon the secular authorities to forbid them to meet and to proselytize (I second Herman's comments regarding the spheres of Caesar and the Church). Perhaps that reflects my choice of fathers to read, and which writings are available to me. But their testimony seems consistent to me so far.


Read St. John's 23rd homily on Romans and Homily 21.

I have, and I'm not sure how those are supposed to bolster the case supporting persecution of heretics; to my mind Homily 21 in particular does the opposite.

A final thought - not too long ago I read a comment by a more modern elder (sorry - I cannot remember who or where, and have had abnormally great difficulty in locating the quote), who commented on instances where many Orthodox were being converted to evangelical Protestant denominations by outreach programs in traditionally Orthodox countries. His comment was to deplore, not so much the heterodox outreach, but rather the lack of grounding in the faith which had been given to those who wound up leaving the Church. He felt that if they had been truly taught their faith, most would not have left. That seems to me a better preventative than persecution, especially in our highly literate age.

In Christ,
Mike

[Herman Blaydoe]

I agree with Matthew and Mike wholeheartedly.

But perhaps this is a language problem? I suggest Rdr Vitalis look up the word "persecution". Otherwise his line of reasoning is really not so different than that used by the Taliban and Al Qaida to justify strapping bombs on to children and the mentally deficient and killing hordes of innocent "heretics".

If a group of people are disturbing the peace and causing acts of violence, then let the civil authorities take whatever action is necessary to stop it and the Church should certainly demand they do so. And if that group happens to be misguided Orthodox Christians, may God open their eyes.

What is heresy? (honestly this is a rhetorical question). If five people answer, I guarantee we will see at least six different answers. And if we start naming SPECIFIC heresies and then pointing out specific heretics...can't you even begin to see the difficulty?

[Andreas Moran]

Should Russia refuse visas for foreign Protestant missionaries and make their activities difficult? Is that persecution? After all, they people draw away from the Orthodox church.

[Matthew Namee]

I said that I was not going to post anymore, but I have another thought which I would like to add:

Who is the author of heresy and the one who seeks to destroy souls? The devil. Those proselytizing heretics are merely pawns of the real enemy, Satan. If you kill the heretics, Satan will simply find more people willing to promote his agenda. The only sure way to combat heresy is by holiness: if the people are holy, they will be unmoved by the words of the heretics. Thus we must, by example and education, and most importantly love, raise up our children to be firm in the Orthodox faith. Only in this way can they avoid the temptations of the enemy. And remember, you can kill all the heretics in the world, but the real enemy does not die. "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (Ephesians 6:12)

Also, while some saints may have said that heresy (or schism) is the worst sin, I doubt that it is the sin to which people are most likely to fall. The enemy will attack us wherever we are weak; if we are weak in the faith, then certainly he will attack us there. But how many people are doctrinally sound but fall daily to evil passions? We would do better to focus our attention on combating lust, greed, gossip, and other passions.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Should Russia refuse visas for foreign Protestant missionaries and make their activities difficult? Is that persecution? After all, they people draw away from the Orthodox church.

Again we are getting things mixed up. If the government of Russia has decided that foreign missionaries are a threat to the public good that is certainly within the realm of civil authority and not necessarily persecution, particularly since these people are not Russian citizens to begin with. Nations do have the right to decide who will cross their borders. However, if the local priest tells people to burn the houses of people who have become Protestant, I think that falls under the banner of persecution and is probably not a good thing. Is it really that hard to understand?

[Bob Robinson]

I'm a new to the Orthodox faith and absolutely love that God, after 35 years in the Protestant church, brought me to the place my wife and I are at now. We were missionaries for many years with YWAM and our Baptist church. Today, we are just working and learning....

I'm open to correction, but does it really matter if a saint says to kill the heretics when Jesus gave His life for them and not only gave His life but gave them good health (while He was here on earth) and freedom from demonic oppression. He had quite a ministry of healing and deliverance in those short 3 years. So He came and did that for people and because a "saint" says "kill them" we do? How will you explain that to the local police depatment. "Oh, they were Islamic so we killed them." "You know, that's what God wants us to do to our enemies--not bless them, not love them, not lay our lives down for them." I'm sorry, but I think when a saint, who may have everything else right, says, "Go kill them heathen" has to be ignored.

[Misha]

I add another phrase from st Issac's 58th homily about the false zeal:

"Be aware that if you put fire and burn someone then God will ask these burned souls from you !
And even if you don't light the fire but you agree and feel happy about it ,then you will be also guilty when Lord comes to judge the world."

[Bob Robinson]

I have no problem with those who are in the army and have to fight for the freedom of their people against aggression. I would have a problem with the German army of WW1 or WW2 doing what they were doing. So let's go back to the days of Christ and ask Him what we should do with those heretics. Let's see, He was surrounded by Pharisees and Sadducees who were indeed not walking in the truth of even their own religion and even opposing Christ's teaching. How many of them did He kill? Hmm, I don't recall Him killing any. That should give us some idea of what God's response is to our enemies and those who persecute us and those who even believe differently than us should be. Are you going to get up an army and eliminate all the Mormons? In terms of heretics, they are near the top. But wait, we have those pesky Jehovah's Witnesses who deny the Trinity. Should we just get all our Orthodox brothers together and go burn down their churches and hang their leaders? OK, those are some hyperboles, but do you see where we're going? I hope so.

[Bob Robinson]

Should Russia refuse visas for foreign Protestant missionaries and make their activities difficult? Is that persecution? After all, they people draw away from the Orthodox church.

I was a protestant missionaries for 17 years and worked in Hong Kong, Thailand, Taiwan, India, Canada, Mexico and a few other countries. I never tried to share Christ with other Christians--I was a missionary of Christ to those who had no idea who He was or what He has done for them. If an Orthodox is drawn to a Protestant's ministry and leaves the Orthodox church, then there's something wrong with the Orthodox church he/she belongs to and not the missionary's activities. We who are Orthodox have THE truth and if it's perceived by us the laity and made clear by our Priests and Bishops and so on, why on earth would we leave? We are very fortunate to have "The Great Pearl" and as those who have it should be proclaiming it to the lost and to the Protestants who don't know there is more for them in Orthodoxy. When I worked in Thailand the government was very amiable to me sharing Christ to the Buddhist population--they didn't fear missionaries. I once shared Christ door to door in a 100% Mormon town. I first asked the mayor if it was all right to go around the neighborhoods sharing Christ and he told me I was wasting my time but he didn't mind one bit. Again, he thought that the Mormons had the truth so missionaries were not a threat. Anytime you start persecuting (or killing) heretics, you will one day have to answer to God as to why you didn't give your life for them so that they too could be saved.

[Andreas Moran]

If an Orthodox is drawn to a Protestant's ministry and leaves the Orthodox church, then there's something wrong with the Orthodox church he/she belongs to and not the missionary's activities. We who are Orthodox have THE truth and if it's perceived by us the laity and made clear by our Priests and Bishops and so on, why on earth would we leave?

I'm not sure how prevalent this is now, but for some time after perestroika, American missionaries were active in rural Russia. The statement in the quote does not recognise the reality that existed. Were these missionaries arriving in some village with a well-ordered church, a priest who was actively preaching the Orthodox faith and serving the community? Of course not. The Church had suffered the most savage and demonic persecution in its history. It was only just emerging from repression and people knew nothing about their Orthodoxy (if they were baptised which many were not ). Hundreds of thousands had been martyred, no instruction had been allowed, people were not permitted to own a Bible or prayer book, priests - where they existed at all - were not allowed to preach or instruct. (The father of our parish priest in Moscow got 5 years in a gulag for assembling a few young people to form a choir in the church.) Even Dostoevsky's 'Brothers Karamazov' was not allowed. So nothing could be 'made clear' by priests and bishops. It was this situation of vulnerability that missionaries sought to exploit. Also, then the Orthodox church building - if it had survived at all - was a wreck whereas these missionaries came with money and built modern facilities which impressed the simple. The Yeltsin years allowed this sort of thing just as they had financial chaos and exploitation. I hope that now the Church has emerged, things are different.

[Deanna Leonti]

I am not sure about this maybe some of you can help me with this,

weren't there Saints in the past who were called heretics by those with in the church?

I quite can't remember exactly where I read this, was it St. Joan of Arc (Latin Church)?,
were there any from the Orthodox?

[Deanna Leonti]

If the Church properly educates its people, if the people are Orthodox in truth and not only in name, then the sophistries of heretics will have no effect.

True, however I do have a little tidbit to add.

I for one was one who was taught and raised Catholic, and kind of left for a short time thinking to myself what is it about them(diff. denomination) and me that are different?

how can they quote so well and I cannot?
I wasn't trained to quote, but that doesn't mean I wasn't taught scripture ( I remember when the San Hendrin was quoting and using scripture at and toward Jesus, and think maybe this might be the reason why I wasn't taught to quote) well anyway the Lord let me see what was different by allowing me to go and seek, only for me to realize that I was in the right church and get back to it. heheh :)
The Sacraments are so strong that those who have had them will not fall far from the tree!

Deanna

[Misha]

Sometimes ,God decides to "persecute" those who don't respect His will...

In 1716 the Turks had the island of Corfu under a tight siege. They had 50,000 troops and a good number of ships surrounding the island, cutting its lifeline from land and sea.

The barbarian armies had been concentrated at the far walls of the city. Pizani, a general of the forces of the Venetian Republic, was anxiously anticipating the oncoming enemy attack (since Corfu and the nearby islands were occupied by Italy at the time).

At daybreak on August 11, 1716, St. Spyridon, the patron Saint of the island, appeared in front of the enemy lines holding a glistening sword in his right hand. His austere and grandiose appearance horrified the aggressors who began to recede. The Agarenes, panic-stricken by the most awesome presence and fearless attack of the Saint, abandoned weapons, machinery and animals, running for their lives.

This great miracle became known throughout the island. The Turks had left behind 120 cannons, a large number of weapons, ammunition, animals and food.

After this powerful, surprising and most obvious miracle, the Venetian ruler Andrew Pizani, who was a Papist, wanted to erect a Papist altar inside the Orthodox Church of St. Spyridon (forever pushing for this was also the Papist Cardinal of the island). However, St. Spyridon appeared to Pizani in a dream saying: "Why are you bothering me? The altar of your faith is unacceptable in my Temple!" Naturally, Pizani reported this to the Papist Cardinal who answered that it was nothing but an evil fantasy of the devil who wanted to nullify the noble deed. After this, Pizani was much encouraged, so he ordered the necessary materials to commence construction of the altar. The materials were piled up outside of the temple of St. Spyridon. When the Orthodox priests of the temple and the Greek leaders of the island realised what was going on, they were greatly grieved. They asked to meet with Pizani to ask him to put a stop to this. Pizani's response was quite disheartening. He said quite bluntly, "As a ruler I will do whatever I please!" At that moment, the Orthodox community of the island turned their eyes to their Saint, beseeching him to put a stop to this abomination.

That same night, St. Spyridon appeared to Pizani as a monk and told him, "I told you not to bother me. If you dare to go through with your decision, you will surely regret it, but by then it will be too late."

The next morning, Pizani reported all this to the Papist Cardinal who now accused him of being not only faithless but also of being "yellow". Again, after this, the ruler mustered up enough courage to order the construction of the altar.

The Papists of the island were celebrating their triumph while the Orthodox were deeply grieved. Their grief could not be comforted and with tears they begged for the Saint's intervention to save them from the Papist abomination.

The Saint heard their prayers and intervened dynamically.

That evening, a terrible storm broke out, unleashing a barrage of thunderbolts on Fort Castelli, Pizani's base and his ammunition barracks. The entire fort ended up in a holocaust. 900 Papist soldiers and civilians were instantly killed from the explosion, but not a single Orthodox was harmed (as they were not allowed inside the fort after dark). Pizani was found dead with his neck wedged between two wooden beams. The body of the Papist Cardinal was found thrown a great distance from the fort.

But the most incredible fact was that the same night and at the same hour, another thunderbolt struck in Venice, targeting the compound of Pizani, burning his portrait that hung on the wall. Strangely enough, nothing else was damaged. Also, the guard of the ammunition barracks saw the Saint draw near him with a lit torch. He was carried by the Saint near the church of the Crucified without a single scratch.

St Athanasios the Parian describes this great miracle in his book "Heavenly judgement"

Corfiots celebrate this miracle every year on November's 12th

[Olga]

Sometimes ,God decides to "persecute" those who don't respect His will...

Exactly. It is God's prerogative to "persecute", not man's. It is one thing to excommunicate a heretic, which the Church has always allowed where necessary, and quite another to seek him out to kill, maim or inflict harm on him.

[Bob Robinson]

...and there you have it. Here in the States we have a melting pot of cultures and religions. If we were to start killing those who didn't believe as we did, we would obviously be put in jail or executed. Killing heretics isn't beneficial for the one killed or the one doing the killing. So let's go with Miss Olga--Let God sort out the heretics and we'll share Christ with them.