Daily services in the 'old country'

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

I've asked this question in several fora but never really received anything more than the vaguest of replies...

Is it true that, in the "old countries" (Russia, Greece, Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, etc.), it remains common for parishes and cathedrals to have daily Matins and / or Vespers if not daily (or near-daily) Divine Liturgy? I've also been told that some Russian parishes and cathedrals try to chant the kathismata in their entirety, hold "real" All-Night vigils, etc.

Just asking. I think that this is the last time I'll ask this question on a major Orthodox forum.

[Father David Moser]

I've asked this question in several fora but never really received anything more than the vaguest of replies...

Is it true that, in the "old countries" (Russia, Greece, Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, etc.), it remains common for parishes and cathedrals to have daily Matins and / or Vespers if not daily (or near-daily) Divine Liturgy? I've also been told that some Russian parishes and cathedrals try to chant the kathismata in their entirety, hold "real" All-Night vigils, etc.

Just asking. I think that this is the last time I'll ask this question on a major Orthodox forum.

I don't know for sure about the 'old countries' but here in the US I know that Holy Virgin Cathedral in San Francisco (ROCOR) has a fairly full cycle of daily services (Vespers, Matins, Hours, Liturgy) as well as a couple of monasteries in the US where that rule is kept. The difficulty in doing this is that it requires at least 3 priests and 3 readers/chanters on staff to make it happen. It is almost impossible for a parish with only one priest to have the daily cycle of services. Many parishes will work to have at least some kind of daily vespers, but that is about as much as can be accomplished without a full staff.

Fr David Moser

[Yuri Zharikov]

It is true that many if not most large city churches and cathedrals in Russia that have several priests on staff follow the daily cycle of services; the degree of fullness/abbreviation varies from parish to parish (as everywhere) depending on the zeal of the priest and his flock, but indeed, it is not uncommon for the full kathismata (and canon) to be read/sung. Certainly in monasteries few is any abbreviations to the service are made. Real all night vigils (start at 9 pm - finish at 4 am) tend to be celebrated on major feastdays, but mostly in monasteries. There are exceptions though - in Yekaterinburg on the eve of Feastday of the Holy Royal Martyrs an full all-night Vigil is always served and then is followed by a Procession with the Cross (20 km) to the place where their holy remains were destroyed. Archb. Vikenti leads the services and the procession which usually attacks several thousand people.

[Anthony Stokes]

I don't know for sure about the 'old countries' but here in the US I know that Holy Virgin Cathedral in San Francisco (ROCOR) has a fairly full cycle of daily services (Vespers, Matins, Hours, Liturgy) as well as a couple of monasteries in the US where that rule is kept. The difficulty in doing this is that it requires at least 3 priests and 3 readers/chanters on staff to make it happen. It is almost impossible for a parish with only one priest to have the daily cycle of services. Many parishes will work to have at least some kind of daily vespers, but that is about as much as can be accomplished without a full staff.


Christ is Risen!

My parish (in Texas, which is a sort of old country :)) has the luxury of a priest that lives on the property. We have daily matins at 6am every M,T,W, & F. Thursday is the priest's day off. We also have Vespers twice a week outside of a fast.

During fasts though, we have matins and vespers everyday. We only have one priest, but we have a few readers and singers that can alternate. I used to be the only one to fill both parts (reader & singer) but now I don't have to go during the week usually since there are others to help out.

We have also done 3 "all-night" vigils, starting around 9pm and finishing at around 5am. If you haven't tried it before, it's a wonderful experience (and hard).

Subdeacon Anthony

[Andreas Moran]

All the churches and monasteries I know in Moscow and region have daily evening service (Vespers and Matins) and Divine Liturgy. The monasteries have 'real' all-night vigils on feast days.

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

Christ is Risen!

My parish (in Texas, which is a sort of old country :)) has the luxury of a priest that lives on the property. We have daily matins at 6am every M,T,W, & F. Thursday is the priest's day off. We also have Vespers twice a week outside of a fast.

During fasts though, we have matins and vespers everyday. We only have one priest, but we have a few readers and singers that can alternate. I used to be the only one to fill both parts (reader & singer) but now I don't have to go during the week usually since there are others to help out.

We have also done 3 "all-night" vigils, starting around 9pm and finishing at around 5am. If you haven't tried it before, it's a wonderful experience (and hard).

Subdeacon Anthony

Interesting. What is your parish?

[Anthony Stokes]

Interesting. What is your parish?


www.stmaximus.org

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

www.stmaximus.org (http://www.stmaximus.org)

Ah, yes. Nice article on the All-Night Vigil that you have there.

I've noticed that, so far, all the answers to my question have to do with Russia. Russians account for more than half of all Orthodox, but I'm also interested in the situation in the other "old countries" -- Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Eastern Poland, Czechia and Slovakia, Syria and the Holy Land, as well as the "diaspora" in Western Europe.

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

I don't know for sure about the 'old countries' but here in the US I know that Holy Virgin Cathedral in San Francisco (ROCOR) has a fairly full cycle of daily services (Vespers, Matins, Hours, Liturgy) as well as a couple of monasteries in the US where that rule is kept. The difficulty in doing this is that it requires at least 3 priests and 3 readers/chanters on staff to make it happen. It is almost impossible for a parish with only one priest to have the daily cycle of services. Many parishes will work to have at least some kind of daily vespers, but that is about as much as can be accomplished without a full staff.

Fr David Moser

The Synodal Cathedral in NY has daily services too, I've been told, while the Moscow Patriachate cathedral in NY has Liturgy nearly every other day.

[Anthony Stokes]

Ah, yes. Nice article on the All-Night Vigil that you have there.

I've noticed that, so far, all the answers to my question have to do with Russia. Russians account for more than half of all Orthodox, but I'm also interested in the situation in the other "old countries" -- Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Eastern Poland, Czechia and Slovakia, Syria and the Holy Land, as well as the "diaspora" in Western Europe.

You'll find that a lot of Russian practices are similar to Athonite Greek practices, such as All-Night Vigils.

Sbdn. Anthony

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

Anybody here from Greece and the other "old countries" who can comment?

I've been told once that, in northern Greece, there are many parishes with daily Matins, Divine Liturgy and Vespers. True?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Anybody here from Greece and the other "old countries" who can comment?

I've been told once that, in northern Greece, there are many parishes with daily Matins, Divine Liturgy and Vespers. True?

I think that in general, in countries such as Greece & Russia, one is very likely to come across parishes which do daily Vespers, Matins & Liturgy.

In the risen Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

The Synodal Cathedral in NY has daily services too, I've been told, while the Moscow Patriachate cathedral in NY has Liturgy nearly every other day.

True enough - I forgot about that. The daily services are not in the main Church but rather the chapel on the first floor.

Fr David Moser

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

It is true that many if not most large city churches and cathedrals in Russia that have several priests on staff follow the daily cycle of services; the degree of fullness/abbreviation varies from parish to parish (as everywhere) depending on the zeal of the priest and his flock, but indeed, it is not uncommon for the full kathismata (and canon) to be read/sung. Certainly in monasteries few is any abbreviations to the service are made. Real all night vigils (start at 9 pm - finish at 4 am) tend to be celebrated on major feastdays, but mostly in monasteries. There are exceptions though - in Yekaterinburg on the eve of Feastday of the Holy Royal Martyrs an full all-night Vigil is always served and then is followed by a Procession with the Cross (20 km) to the place where their holy remains were destroyed. Archb. Vikenti leads the services and the procession which usually attacks several thousand people.

Thank you to all who have responded to my post so far!

I've read the famous article (http://www.orthodox.net/ustav/real-all-night-vigil.html)about the "Real All-Night Vigil" celebrated in 1911, and it implies that prior to that reenactment, such vigils had not been held for hundreds of years. Does the apparent frequency of "real" All-Night Vigils in contemporary Russia, complete with the unabbreviated kathisma and canons, represent a conscious attempt to "return to liturgical tradition" and to a fuller observance of the Typikon? (I heard that this is what happened in Jordanville during the time of the late Vladyka Laurus.)

I'd also like to ask what makes such Vigils take so long. The article I've linked states that, when a real All-Night Vigil was celebrated in 1911 for the first time since the 17th century, lasted only 6 hours. The All-Night Vigils described in this forum (and in chance references I've found here and there) talk of Vigils some 7 hours or more.

[Anthony Stokes]

I'd also like to ask what makes such Vigils take so long. The article I've linked states that, when a real All-Night Vigil was celebrated in 1911 for the first time since the 17th century, lasted only 6 hours. The All-Night Vigils described in this forum (and in chance references I've found here and there) talk of Vigils some 7 hours or more.

The Athonite/Russian style All-Night Vigil consists of, basically, every daily service. As I mentioned before, we have done 3 of them at my parish over the past 5 years or so. Here is the order we kept. Start times are approximate, especially depending on what settings we use (how much Byzantine chant, etc).

9pm - Little Vespers
9:30 - small meal
10:15 or so - Compline with the Akathist to the Theotokos
11 - All-Night Vigil (Vespers & Matins w/1st Hour)
3-4am - Pre-communion service (whole thing), 3rd and 6th Hours
appr. 5am - Divine Liturgy

These services are all done in their entirety; complete Psalms and Kathismata, the whole Polyeleon, the full canons, Litya with all of the Lord, have mercies, etc.

So, 7 hours is pretty good. 8-9 is probably average. I've attended just the Vespers/Matins festal vigil at St. Anthony's Monastery, and that was 5 hours itself.

Subdeacon Anthony

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

The Athonite/Russian style All-Night Vigil consists of, basically, every daily service. As I mentioned before, we have done 3 of them at my parish over the past 5 years or so. Here is the order we kept. Start times are approximate, especially depending on what settings we use (how much Byzantine chant, etc).

9pm - Little Vespers
9:30 - small meal
10:15 or so - Compline with the Akathist to the Theotokos
11 - All-Night Vigil (Vespers & Matins w/1st Hour)
3-4am - Pre-communion service (whole thing), 3rd and 6th Hours
appr. 5am - Divine Liturgy

These services are all done in their entirety; complete Psalms and Kathismata, the whole Polyeleon, the full canons, Litya with all of the Lord, have mercies, etc.

So, 7 hours is pretty good. 8-9 is probably average. I've attended just the Vespers/Matins festal vigil at St. Anthony's Monastery, and that was 5 hours itself.

Subdeacon Anthony

I didn't know that Greek monasteries outside of Athos did an All-Night Vigil of aggregate Vespers-Matins. Somebody did tell me that such vigils (really lasting all night) are done 70-80 times in Athonite monasteries. Amazing.

How does one keep awake during such services? And what do the laity attending these do? Do they just listen, or do the Jesus Prayer, or go about venerating icons, etc?

[Olga]

On Greek vigils: The Byzantine choir of Lykourgos Angelopoulos has sung at vigils of lengths of 8 hours (Mega Spilaion Monastery), 9 hours (Cologne, Germany), and 11 hours (Mt Sinai Monastery, I would assume St Catherine's).

Exact dates are not given, nor whether such services were the norm at the respective monasteries, but given the history of this choir, it can be assumed these services were held some time between the late 1970s to the end of the 1980s.

Even parishes can draw things out: This year's vesperal liturgy of Holy Saturday morning at the local Russian church (not a large parish by any stretch) began with the Hours at 9am, and ended at around 1.45pm.

A "full" Vigil, as Anthony Stokes said, means the standard psalms for vespers and matins are sung in their entirety, not simply selected verses (e.g. Psalm 103, "Blessed is the Man", "Lord, I have Called", the Polyeleos psalms, the opening to the Praises, etc.). The full Psalter kathisma as appointed for the day can be rather long as well. In many feasts, several canons may be appointed at Matins, depending on the day of the week and rank of service. It is not unusual to have four, five, or even six canons appointed; and if all the designated repeats of troparia and sessional hymns across the whole service (Lord, I have Called, Litia, Apostikha, Praises) are sung or chanted, it is not difficult to see how a full vigil can run for much longer than the two and a half hours or so which would be the norm in most parishes.

[Paul Cowan]

I didn't know that Greek monasteries outside of Athos did an All-Night Vigil of aggregate Vespers-Matins. Somebody did tell me that such vigils (really lasting all night) are done 70-80 times in Athonite monasteries. Amazing.

How does one keep awake during such services? And what do the laity attending these do? Do they just listen, or do the Jesus Prayer, or go about venerating icons, etc?

During my extended stay on Athos I participated in 2 all night vigils. The laity attend, only. I did hear a few of the "regulars" mumbling along under their breaths. Some people fell asleep, most like me were very attentive to everything going on. Just watching and listening was work. Some were occassionally leaving their stalls to venerate an icon or two. SOme left and came back after a few minutes. (I assume bathroom breaks)

Most everyone had a prayer rope as i did and were saying the prayer. I can't really speak for what they all were doing since it was pitch black in there, but for the most part, all paid attention. No one left unweary.

Paul

[Olga]

How does one keep awake during such services? And what do the laity attending these do? Do they just listen, or do the Jesus Prayer, or go about venerating icons, etc?

Allow me to relate a story: A man I know very well spent a week at a monastery in another state, which was run along traditional Russian lines. He was soon pressed into service chopping wood for firewood, as well as other duties. The monastery was located just below the snow line, and it was nearing midwinter. He also kept the same hours as the monks - being roused at 3am, and attending the cycle of services. While this man had served his parish church from childhood in various capacities, nevertheless, this was still quite a shock to the system.

During one vigil, much longer than what he was used to, he truly felt he would drop from exhaustion. Singing in the choir was not enough to keep fatigue at bay. Yet he felt this was not the right thing to do. So he offered a little prayer to the Mother of God for help. Almost immediately, he felt what he could only describe as an invisible pair of hands taking hold of him, and propping him up. The sleepy fog in his brain was gone. His voice regained strength. And his tears streamed for quite some time.

I wouldn't expect everyone to have a spiritual experience like this at a monastic vigil, but if one attends such a service with the right heart, it is remarkable what physical obstacles one can overcome.

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

Allow me to relate a story: A man I know very well spent a week at a monastery in another state, which was run along traditional Russian lines. He was soon pressed into service chopping wood for firewood, as well as other duties. The monastery was located just below the snow line, and it was nearing midwinter. He also kept the same hours as the monks - being roused at 3am, and attending the cycle of services. While this man had served his parish church from childhood in various capacities, nevertheless, this was still quite a shock to the system.

During one vigil, much longer than what he was used to, he truly felt he would drop from exhaustion. Singing in the choir was not enough to keep fatigue at bay. Yet he felt this was not the right thing to do. So he offered a little prayer to the Mother of God for help. Almost immediately, he felt what he could only describe as an invisible pair of hands taking hold of him, and propping him up. The sleepy fog in his brain was gone. His voice regained strength. And his tears streamed for quite some time.

I wouldn't expect everyone to have a spiritual experience like this at a monastic vigil, but if one attends such a service with the right heart, it is remarkable what physical obstacles one can overcome.

I've also read accounts to the effect that even the monks and the priests sometimes take naps during such vigils, while others doze leaning at the choir stalls.

Sleeping involuntarily during prayer is still prayer. Even if the body can't take it anymore and succumbs to sleep, the mere fact that the person's will and intention is to pray and to wait upon the Lord, is enough. In the lives of the saints of the Roman Catholic Church (to which I belong), there are accounts of how some saints would sometimes fall asleep beside the altar while praying in the quiet of the night.

Of course, managing to stay awake all night is still the best.

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

On Greek vigils: The Byzantine choir of Lykourgos Angelopoulos has sung at vigils of lengths of 8 hours (Mega Spilaion Monastery), 9 hours (Cologne, Germany), and 11 hours (Mt Sinai Monastery, I would assume St Catherine's).



Are the varying lengths due to the ranking of the monasteries? I read that the monasteries in Athos have strict rules on which monasteries can hold vigils of particular length, with Megisti Lavra alone allowed to have an 18-hour vigil. Are these rules in force all throughout the Greek Orthodox world?

Edifying to know that Mr. Angelopoulos's choir is first and foremost a church choir, and only secondarily a concert choir.

[Anthony Stokes]

Are the varying lengths due to the ranking of the monasteries? I read that the monasteries in Athos have strict rules on which monasteries can hold vigils of particular length, with Megisti Lavra alone allowed to have an 18-hour vigil. Are these rules in force all throughout the Greek Orthodox world?

Edifying to know that Mr. Angelopoulos's choir is first and foremost a church choir, and only secondarily a concert choir.


I'm not sure about this one, but I can attest to the fact that the style of music makes a big difference. When we do our all-night vigils, I tend to use as much Byzantine chant as possible, since the settings usually take longer than the Russian ones. So, it can depend on what settings are done. The different monasteries on Athos have different chanting styles too, so that could be part of it. Also, how many readings are done and how long they are can add to the time. By readings, I mean things like the NT reading between Vespers and Matins, which is in the Typikon but is usually not done. Also, for feast days, the life of the saint might be read at some point during the Vigil.

The Greek Byzantine Choir does chant at services, but not as a regular occurrence. I believe each member has his own parish when they are not on tour. I went to a workshop with them in New York this past January. If they were the normal choir at a parish in Greece, I would probably pack up my family and move to wherever it was.

Subdeacon Anthony

[Father David Moser]

Sleeping involuntarily during prayer is still prayer. Even if the body can't take it anymore and succumbs to sleep, the mere fact that the person's will and intention is to pray and to wait upon the Lord, is enough.

This is something that has to be quite carefully examined. There is a doctrine within the Roman Catholic tradition of "intent" that goes something like this, "if you 'meant' do to something but were prevented by something out of control, then you receive the 'merit' or 'credit' just as if you had done it" Now I'm not Roman Catholic, never have been and never will be, however that is the best of my understanding of the doctrine. This doctrine relies on the underpinning of the whole legalistic doctrine of redemption that relies on merit and gives birth to the ability to access the superfluous merits of the saints and the purchasing of indulgences and so on. This is foreign to Orthodoxy. I would encourage and welcome further examination of this statement from a patristic pov since I do not think it is supported by the Orthodox tradition in the same way that it is supported (or defined) by the Roman Catholic tradition.

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

I was taught by Bishop Eirenaios that God looks to our intentions precisely because there is no legalistic or accountancy exercise involved. He sees our efforts and they are acceptable even if we fail to gain a result. But this is I think a different approach to a 'debit/credit' notion on the RC model. We fall and get up and fall again as the Fathers say. God knows our infirmities and sees our intentions in our hearts.

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

I once saw a comment to the effect that in Holy Trinity-Saint Sergius monastery, the services are carried out almost around the clock and that its various churches are perpetually resounding with chant. Is that true?

[Andreas Moran]

Certainly the akathist to St Sergius is chanted near his relics in Holy Trinity church from early in the morning to late at night. Beyond that I can't say.

[Moses Ibrahim]

Back in Syria in the village where my family comes from, the priest lives in the house adjacent to the Church. He is the village priest. The Church pays for everything (his house, his car, his children's education, his food, you name it) so basically, he does as many daily services (not the full cycle of course; he is the only priest, he also has to do it by himself when the chanters don't show up) as is possible. Plus the village cemetery is just a 7 min walk up the hill, so funerals and memorials can be done right away. Its too bad these Orthodox villages are being vacated for the so called "splendid cities".

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

Back in Syria in the village where my family comes from, the priest lives in the house adjacent to the Church. He is the village priest. The Church pays for everything (his house, his car, his children's education, his food, you name it) so basically, he does as many daily services (not the full cycle of course; he is the only priest, he also has to do it by himself when the chanters don't show up) as is possible. Plus the village cemetery is just a 7 min walk up the hill, so funerals and memorials can be done right away. Its too bad these Orthodox villages are being vacated for the so called "splendid cities".

How long is a typical Divine Liturgy in Syria (or in Russia, for that matter)?

[Andreas Moran]

How long is a typical Divine Liturgy in Syria (or in Russia, for that matter)?

In Russia, in my experience, the actual Divine liturgy (discounting the Hours) lasts close to two hours (assuming a modest number of communicants).

[Moses Ibrahim]

How long is a typical Divine Liturgy in Syria (or in Russia, for that matter)?

Roughly 1.5 - 2 hours.

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

In Russia, in my experience, the actual Divine liturgy (discounting the Hours) lasts close to two hours (assuming a modest number of communicants).

Perhaps a new thread might have to be built around this little response, but here goes:

I remember reading, here and there in the Net, that the reason why it is impossible for most Orthodox priests to celebrate the Divine Liturgy daily, is that it is very exhausting to do so, because of the preparatory ceremonies, the long prayers, etc. etc. Can somebody elaborate on this?

.

[Anthony Stokes]

I remember reading, here and there in the Net, that the reason why it is impossible for most Orthodox priests to celebrate the Divine Liturgy daily, is that it is very exhausting to do so, because of the preparatory ceremonies, the long prayers, etc. etc. Can somebody elaborate on this?
.

The actual preparatory "ceremony" for the Divine Liturgy is the Proskemede, which itself is not that long.

But, you are correct, that a priest is supposed to have served Vespers and Matins as preparation, and at least read them if he is not able to serve them. In addition, the service before Holy Communion, including the canon and prayers of preparation. And in some traditions, the 3 canons and akathist as well.

Subdeacon Anthony

[Andreas Moran]

It is usual in parishes as well as monasteries in Russia to say Vespers and Matins most if not all evenings. The Divine liturgy is usually said daily but then again even in parishes in Russia (well, in Moscow at any rate) there are normally two priests. In the morning, the priest does the Proskemede whilst the choir say the first and third hours. Lay people are suppose to prepare by saying three canons and an akathist and to fast for three days. I can't say this is completely observed but confession before every communion is still a strict requirement.

[Father David Moser]

The actual preparatory "ceremony" for the Divine Liturgy is the Proskemede, which itself is not that long.

But, you are correct, that a priest is supposed to have served Vespers and Matins as preparation, and at least read them if he is not able to serve them. In addition, the service before Holy Communion, including the canon and prayers of preparation. And in some traditions, the 3 canons and akathist as well.

What Anthony did not mention was the pre-communion fast. On the day when one prepares to celebrate/receive the Holy Mysteries, as well as during the day on which does celebrate/receive the Mysteries, he fasts from marital relations. Most parish priests are married and thus to serve the liturgy every day as a married priest would put a severe strain on one's marriage (putting it mildly).

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

Most parish priests are married and thus to serve the liturgy every day as a married priest would put a severe strain on one's marriage (putting it mildly).

Unless you were like St John of Kronstadt! And your wife was like his!

[M.C. Steenberg]

Unless you were like St John of Kronstadt! And your wife was like his!

Whether she liked it or not!

[Father David Moser]

Unless you were like St John of Kronstadt! And your wife was like his!


Whether she liked it or not!


First - St John was an exceptional person.
Second - Fr Matthew is quite right in his implication, St John's wife didn't like the situation, however as they lived in 19th century Russia and since she was the wife of a priest, she didn't have much choice.

I'm not sure where my copy has gotten to in the current disarray of my library, however, the biography (as opposed to hagiography) of St John called "A Prodigal Saint" is quite clear that his wife was not really in agreement with St John's desire to live "as brother and sister" and that she did not really like the life she acquired as his wife.

Fr David Moser

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

First - St John was an exceptional person.
Second - Fr Matthew is quite right in his implication, St John's wife didn't like the situation, however as they lived in 19th century Russia and since she was the wife of a priest, she didn't have much choice.

I'm not sure where my copy has gotten to in the current disarray of my library, however, the biography (as opposed to hagiography) of St John called "A Prodigal Saint" is quite clear that his wife was not really in agreement with St John's desire to live "as brother and sister" and that she did not really like the life she acquired as his wife.

Fr David Moser

Pity the poor wife. Or were there other things that compensated for her, um, privation?

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

What Anthony did not mention was the pre-communion fast. On the day when one prepares to celebrate/receive the Holy Mysteries, as well as during the day on which does celebrate/receive the Mysteries, he fasts from marital relations. Most parish priests are married and thus to serve the liturgy every day as a married priest would put a severe strain on one's marriage (putting it mildly).

Fr David Moser

I think another Russian saint who was known for serving the full cycle of services everyday was Basil of Kineshma.

Sometimes, I wonder: are there still bishops (whether Catholic or Orthodox) like him?

[Andreas Moran]

I read somewhere that St John's wife complained at first to the Church authorities but that later she accepted the situation and called her husband 'Brother John'. You'd have thought they'd have talked about this before the wedding, wouldn't you?

I think we would be surprised at the number of couples who do agree to forgo marital relations (though probably not from the outset of marriage). Archimandrite Zacharias has hinted that he knows some and it's an ascesis of which he approves. But clearly such a course must be by mutual consent.

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

In Russia, in my experience, the actual Divine liturgy (discounting the Hours) lasts close to two hours (assuming a modest number of communicants).

And how long would a typical All-Night Vigil or Vespers or Matins be?

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

A contact of mine alerted me to the daily Divine Liturgy (Sfanta Liturghie) and Vecernia (Vespers) broadcast from the Patriarchal Cathedral at Bucharest.

http://www.trinitas.ro/

Divine Liturgy is normally broadcast from 9 to 10:30 AM Romanian time while Vecernia is broadcast from 4:05 PM to 5:05 PM. (Romanian time is GMT + 0200 H)

My correspondent told me that the Daily Liturgy is preceded at the Patriarchal Cathedral by Mesonychtikon, Orthros (beginning 6 AM) and Hours but these are not broadcast.

I was trying to listen but for some reason I couldn't get access. The idea of having daily services broadcast from a Patriarchal cathedral sounds nice, though.

[Andreas Moran]

Quotation:
Originally Posted by Andreas Moran
In Russia, in my experience, the actual Divine liturgy (discounting the Hours) lasts close to two hours (assuming a modest number of communicants).

And how long would a typical All-Night Vigil or Vespers or Matins be?

In a Moscow parish church such as ours of St Nicholas, the evening service (Vespers and Matins) lasts about two-and-a-half hours.

[Alice]

A contact of mine alerted me to the daily Divine Liturgy (Sfanta Liturghie) and Vecernia (Vespers) broadcast from the Patriarchal Cathedral at Bucharest.

http://www.trinitas.ro/

Divine Liturgy is normally broadcast from 9 to 10:30 AM Romanian time while Vecernia is broadcast from 4:05 PM to 5:05 PM. (Romanian time is GMT + 0200 H)

My correspondent told me that the Daily Liturgy is preceded at the Patriarchal Cathedral by Mesonychtikon, Orthros (beginning 6 AM) and Hours but these are not broadcast.

I was trying to listen but for some reason I couldn't get access. The idea of having daily services broadcast from a Patriarchal cathedral sounds nice, though.

There are daily radio broadcasts in Greece.
On Sunday mornings, there is a television broadcast from the Metropolis (cathedral).
However, wherever one may find themselves, one must discipline themselves to take advantage of these spiritual pieces of nourishment....

In Christ,
Alice

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

There are daily radio broadcasts in Greece.
On Sunday mornings, there is a television broadcast from the Metropolis (cathedral).
However, wherever one may find themselves, one must discipline themselves to take advantage of these spiritual pieces of nourishment....

In Christ,
Alice

May I know what is the time (and normally how long) these liturgies are aired? Are they available through the Internet?

[Alice]

May I know what is the time (and normally how long) these liturgies are aired? Are they available through the Internet?

Dear Carlos,

I am new to this. My husband listens to them when we are in Greece. I know that they are broadcast from the Church of Piraeus. (the port city has a dynamic metropolis)

I will ask my husband, when he has more time this weekend, and get back to you.

I found the internet link in Greek, but wasn't sure how to tell you to follow it.

In Christ,
Alice

[Alice]

May I know what is the time (and normally how long) these liturgies are aired? Are they available through the Internet?

http://www.pe912fm.com/DocLib/%ce%96%cf%89%ce%bd%cf%84%ce%b1%ce%bd%ce%ae%20%ce%b 1%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%ce%b1%cf%83%ce%b7.aspx

or if that fails go to

www.pe912fm.com (http://www.pe912fm.com/), then click on the link on the top that says Ζωντανη Ακροαση (live broadcast)

I hope this helps...

In Christ,
Alice

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

http://www.pe912fm.com/DocLib/%ce%96%cf%89%ce%bd%cf%84%ce%b1%ce%bd%ce%ae%20%ce%b 1%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%ce%b1%cf%83%ce%b7.aspx

or if that fails go to

www.pe912fm.com (http://www.pe912fm.com/), then click on the link on the top that says Ζωντανη Ακροαση (live broadcast)

I hope this helps...

In Christ,
Alice

One, last, little question. Please don't lose patience with me.

What time is the Divine Liturgy aired? 9 AM Athens time? Does it include Orthros, and what hour does it normally end? (I'm asking about the duration so I'd know how long I should expect to be listening to the Internet radio and so I can arrange my schedule accordingly)

[Alice]

One, last, little question. Please don't lose patience with me.

What time is the Divine Liturgy aired? 9 AM Athens time? Does it include Orthros, and what hour does it normally end? (I'm asking about the duration so I'd know how long I should expect to be listening to the Internet radio and so I can arrange my schedule accordingly)

Try 7 A.M. Athens time. Right now it is 8:30 A.M. and the Divine Liturgy is ending.
http://www.pe912fm.com/DocLib/%ce%96%cf%89%ce%bd%cf%84%ce%b1%ce%bd%ce%ae%20%ce%b 1%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%ce%b1%cf%83%ce%b7.aspx

[Andrew James]

What Anthony did not mention was the pre-communion fast. On the day when one prepares to celebrate/receive the Holy Mysteries, as well as during the day on which does celebrate/receive the Mysteries, he fasts from marital relations. Most parish priests are married and thus to serve the liturgy every day as a married priest would put a severe strain on one's marriage (putting it mildly).

Fr David Moser

Bless, Father!

Does the priest fast from marital relations the entire day before performing the divine liturgy or just the evening before?

[Father David Moser]

Bless, Father!

Does the priest fast from marital relations the entire day before performing the divine liturgy or just the evening before?

Never considered that really - it's not been an issue for me. I would guess that the entire day would be appropriate as most priests I know begin the preparatory prayers during the preceding day (one priest I know begins in the morning and says parts of the rule throughout the whole day). So since it's part of the preparation, I say that the whole day is used to prepare.

Fr David Moser

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

or if that fails go to

www.pe912fm.com (http://www.pe912fm.com/), then click on the link on the top that says Ζωντανη Ακροαση (live broadcast)

I hope this helps...

In Christ,
Alice

Today, August 6, Feast of the Transfiguration (New Calendar) I finally had the opportunity to click on the link and listen.

Give the feastday, there was apparently a Hierarchical Divine Liturgy for today (all those "polla eti dhespota"), apparently with an ordination (all those cries of "Axios") plus what sounded like several short exhortations interspersed throughout the liturgy (where they sermons? I don't understand Greek, but I think I can easily tell apart a spoken prayer from an exhortation). I caught what seemed like the end of Orthros for nearly 30 mins, followed by the liturgy itself that lasted a bit more than 3 hours.

The chanting (which was purely Byzantine) was not "polished", but that only served to underline the fact that I was listening to an actual liturgy, and not to a performance or recording. The chanters and clergy all sounded un-self-conscious: being an MC for the Traditional Latin Mass, I appreciated that. It is a virtue that I long to acquire.

All in all, I liked it and it led me to prayer.

[Misha]

Orthros usually starts at 7 am.
The duration is about one and a half hour.
The Divine Liturgy lasts almost the same .
When there is a bishop or more the duration may vary from 2 to 3 hours.
You can also watch on line various services here*in greek):
http://www.tv4e.gr/

[Effie Ganatsios]

I've asked this question in several fora but never really received anything more than the vaguest of replies...

Is it true that, in the "old countries" (Russia, Greece, Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, etc.), it remains common for parishes and cathedrals to have daily Matins and / or Vespers if not daily (or near-daily) Divine Liturgy? I've also been told that some Russian parishes and cathedrals try to chant the kathismata in their entirety, hold "real" All-Night vigils, etc.

Just asking. I think that this is the last time I'll ask this question on a major Orthodox forum.

Carlos, this is the first time I have read a post from you. I'm sorry that you weren't given an answer on the other Orthodox forums you have been part of.

My parish church has a morning service and an evening service. When there is to be an all night vigil, a notice is posted outside the door for all who want to attend. The parish churches have full services every day. Services in the various small chapels only take place on special occasions.


I forgot to tell you that I live in Greece.

I hope I have answered your question.

There are 3 main churches near my house which is built on a hill. As you know, sound travels upward and it is very "interesting" every morning and every evening when the bells from these churches start ringing.

Church bells are an integral part of my day. I could not imagine my days here without their sound. In summer I sit on my front verandah, just as the sun is coming up to my left, listen to the bells, and read my bible. This is the calmest part of my day and really beautiful.

Our city clock in the main square also rings the hours and half hours so life is never dull. I get the full benefit of this as well.

I have to confess that I love these daily celebrations of life but there is also the sombre bell of St. George church where our cemetery is located. When someone dies the bell here rings very slowly and steadily until the person is buried, just as it does all day on Good Friday.

I have strayed a little from your question. I tend to do that.

Sorry

Effie

I have just been reading all the messages on this thread. I believe that everyone has answered fully and with lots of details.

Just wanted to add that the Church of Greece radio station (one of the best in Greece, in my opinion) broadcasts the morning and evening services each day. This is a godsend to those who, for one reason or another, are unable to tend church each day.

Church services start very early in the morning - about 7 - 7.30 a.m. and finish at around 10 or 10.30 a.m. It depends on what is included in the service.

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

Carlos, this is the first time I have read a post from you. I'm sorry that you weren't given an answer on the other Orthodox forums you have been part of.

My parish church has a morning service and an evening service. When there is to be an all night vigil, a notice is posted outside the door for all who want to attend. The parish churches have full services every day. Services in the various small chapels only take place on special occasions.


I forgot to tell you that I live in Greece.

I hope I have answered your question.

There are 3 main churches near my house which is built on a hill. As you know, sound travels upward and it is very "interesting" every morning and every evening when the bells from these churches start ringing.

Church bells are an integral part of my day. I could not imagine my days here without their sound. In summer I sit on my front verandah, just as the sun is coming up to my left, listen to the bells, and read my bible. This is the calmest part of my day and really beautiful.

Our city clock in the main square also rings the hours and half hours so life is never dull. I get the full benefit of this as well.

I have to confess that I love these daily celebrations of life but there is also the sombre bell of St. George church where our cemetery is located. When someone dies the bell here rings very slowly and steadily until the person is buried, just as it does all day on Good Friday.

I have strayed a little from your question. I tend to do that.

Sorry

Effie

I have just been reading all the messages on this thread. I believe that everyone has answered fully and with lots of details.

Just wanted to add that the Church of Greece radio station (one of the best in Greece, in my opinion) broadcasts the morning and evening services each day. This is a godsend to those who, for one reason or another, are unable to tend church each day.

Church services start very early in the morning - about 7 - 7.30 a.m. and finish at around 10 or 10.30 a.m. It depends on what is included in the service.

Thank you, Mr. Ganatsios!

I listened to a portion of Orthros and to the Divine Liturgy as broadcast on the radio station of the Metropolitanate of Piraeus last August 6, 7 and 8, while I was resting from illness. I hope to be able to listen to these again on August 15.

As I wrote in another list:



In the past couple of days, I've been on leave from work due to illness. Since I don't like lying down in order to rest, I spent part of the time listening to a Vespers and part of a Divine Liturgy as broadcast by the Romanian Orthodox channel from the Patriarchal Cathedral (www.trinitas.ro (http://www.trinitas.ro/)) as well as two whole Divine Liturgies (including the concluding portion of Orthros) broadcast from the cathedral of the Metropolitanate of Pireaus (www.pe912fm.com (http://www.pe912fm.com/))

Listening (and trying to "pray along" as best as I could) to these was a tremendous grace for me. I was also struck by the intensity of the chanting and the sheer length of the services -- not just for August 6 (Transfiguration) but even for ordinary days. For example, the DL from Greece that I listened to on August 7 was a little more than 1.5 hours -- and there was with no sermon. Orthros and DL were like an irresistible succession of chants and prayers, leaving the soul no room for distraction.

It was "liturgical saturation" and a bombardment of prayer. Even by merely listening, I knew that the Divine Liturgy was "heaven on earth", not because of the singing (the singing was not really "polished", but was sincere and authentically Byzantine), but because it just lifted up the mind and heart to God, with the endless succession of litanies, exclamations and prayers leading me deeper and deeper into an unaccustomed awareness of God's glory


The only thing that I found a bit disconcerting was the tendency to rush through the kathismata, but I tempered my surprise by reminding myself that 1) at least, the kathismata were said, instead of being entirely omitted, and 2) prior to the abbreviation (by about 2/3) of the Roman Catholic Divine Office in 1971, the same practice was done by almost all Catholic priests when saying / reciting the Office or when saying Mass. I understand that rushing through the Psalms is a "coping mechanism" to the (let's admit it) great length of the daily offices, and is much better than omitting them altogether. However, I do think that the psalms should eventually have a more central role in the actual chanting of the liturgy of the hours. (Just my two centavos' worth)

By the way, does anybody know about other Orthodox radio stations that broadcast frequent divine services? Does Athens have one?

I'd also like to know what time Vespers is often broadcast.

Thanks in advance!

It is a comfort to think about the Orthodox parishes that still maintain the full cycle everyday. They are islands of much needed prayer in a sea of increasing worldliness and sin. I tend to think of the Orthodox Church as the "praying Church" and of the Catholic Church as the "working Church" -- a gross simplification, to be sure, but I really think the Orthodox Church, in practice, values prayer far more than the Western Church does.

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

Carlos, this is the first time I have read a post from you. I'm sorry that you weren't given an answer on the other Orthodox forums you have been part of.

My parish church has a morning service and an evening service. When there is to be an all night vigil, a notice is posted outside the door for all who want to attend. The parish churches have full services every day. Services in the various small chapels only take place on special occasions.


I forgot to tell you that I live in Greece.

I hope I have answered your question.

There are 3 main churches near my house which is built on a hill. As you know, sound travels upward and it is very "interesting" every morning and every evening when the bells from these churches start ringing.

Church bells are an integral part of my day. I could not imagine my days here without their sound. In summer I sit on my front verandah, just as the sun is coming up to my left, listen to the bells, and read my bible. This is the calmest part of my day and really beautiful.

Our city clock in the main square also rings the hours and half hours so life is never dull. I get the full benefit of this as well.

I have to confess that I love these daily celebrations of life but there is also the sombre bell of St. George church where our cemetery is located. When someone dies the bell here rings very slowly and steadily until the person is buried, just as it does all day on Good Friday.

I have strayed a little from your question. I tend to do that.

Sorry

Effie

I have just been reading all the messages on this thread. I believe that everyone has answered fully and with lots of details.

Just wanted to add that the Church of Greece radio station (one of the best in Greece, in my opinion) broadcasts the morning and evening services each day. This is a godsend to those who, for one reason or another, are unable to tend church each day.

Church services start very early in the morning - about 7 - 7.30 a.m. and finish at around 10 or 10.30 a.m. It depends on what is included in the service.

And how is attendance in these daily services? It is my understanding that church attendance in Greece is actually improving.

[Effie Ganatsios]

And how is attendance in these daily services? It is my understanding that church attendance in Greece is actually improving.

Our churches are full. On Sundays and feast days of course there are more people, but generally a high percentage of the population attend church regularly.

In two days time we will celebrate the feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos. There will not be enough room for people in the church of Panayia and there will be long lines both inside and outside the church. This church is very old and is traditionally the one that the old families i.e. those who have not moved to our city from somewhere else, visit on this day. This church is lovely and is situated in the middle of an enormous park. The candle stands and one large icon, together with the prosphora baskets are placed outside the main doors, but we still need to go inside and pay homage to the main icon. We also take little bottles with us because right under the icon of the Theotokos there is the opening to an ancient underground spring. This water is blessed and we take some of it home with us. I believe the priest blesses it during the service but I am not absolutely sure about this.


In the past people spent all day after the service in the grounds of the church. The families brought picnic lunches with them and there was an orchestra playing. Today things are more commercial and there are food stands serving both barbecued meats and sweets. Most people leave after a couple of hours. The church is open to a steady stream of visitors all day until the late evening.

It is one of our most important religious days of the year, and also one of the highlights of my year.

Effie

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Carlos,

When in Moscow we don't go the liturgy every day but we do usually go to the evening service, either at the parish church near our apartment or one of the monasteries in the city. Typically, there are about 30-40 people present, though whether always the same people (apart from the inevitable regular 'babushki') is impossible to know. We, after all, tend to visit different monasteries on different days but our favourites are Afonskii Podvorie, Podvorie of the Troitse Sergieva Lavra, and Sretensky monastery. On major feast days, of course it's a different story. Then, everywhere is packed. Having said that, although there are hundreds of churches and quite a few monasteries, these are a fraction of what existed 90 years ago.