Canons that forbid prostrations on Sundays?

[Andrew James]

Are there in existence any canons that forbid prostrations on Sundays?

[Herman Blaydoe]

Are there in existence any canons that forbid prostrations on Sundays?

This (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/kneeling.aspx) might be worth consideration. It specifically mentions Canon XX of the first Ecumenical Council and Canon XC of the Council of Trullo, but interestingly enough the word "forbid" or anything comparable, is not specifically used.

Herman

[Mourad Mankarios]

Doesn't the priest still prostrate though upon entering the altar even on Sundays and during the fifty days?

[Andrew James]

Doesn't the priest still prostrate though upon entering the altar even on Sundays and during the fifty days?

From what I understand, the priest should and does prostrate on those days.

Also thank you Herman for the link.

[Mourad Mankarios]

From what I understand, the priest should and does prostrate on those days.

Also thank you Herman for the link.

So then how do the Orthodox churches reconcile this with the canons which forbid prostrating on these days?

[Kris]

Doesn't the priest still prostrate though upon entering the altar even on Sundays and during the fifty days?

If so, is that a uniquely Russian practice? I've not experienced it in the Greek Church.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Basically prostrations are not done in the church from Pascha to Pentecost (the first prostrations are done at the 'kneeling' Vespers of Pentecost).

Also they should not be done on Saturdays, Sundays, pre-festal & post-festal periods and on any feast where the Great Doxology would be sung at Matins.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mourad Mankarios]

Is it possible to distinguish here between conducting prayers while kneeling and the act of making a prostration? I just find it really difficult understanding the absolute forbidding of what seems to be an integral component of Orthodox worship at anytime of the year. To be entirely honest I found it difficult to understand how the question of whether one should or should not kneel during worship would be so important as to be addressed in an ecumenical council and then in the negative as well.

[Herman Blaydoe]

So then how do the Orthodox churches reconcile this with the canons which forbid prostrating on these days?

Only some churches do this and are in violation. It would be up to the bishop as to how to deal with it pastorally. But again, as has been explained on several occasions, the Orthodox understanding of the application of the canons is different from the Catholic view, it is not judicial in nature, but holistic.

[Mourad Mankarios]

the Orthodox understanding of the application of the canons is different from the Catholic view, it is not judicial in nature, but holistic.

Could you please elaborate on this further???

[Mourad Mankarios]

Also are such canons limited only to the formal worship of the church or do they extend also to the personal or private worship of individuals, so that if someone performed a prostration on Sunday or during the fifty days while in the private worship of their own home they would have transgressed against the canons of the church and performed a sin or action requiring repentance and confession?

[Herman Blaydoe]

Could you please elaborate on this further???

Actually this has been discussed on more than one occasion, you might try reading here (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=54579&postcount=2). I hope you find it useful.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Also are such canons limited only to the formal worship of the church or do they extend also to the personal or private worship of individuals, so that if someone performed a prostration on Sunday or during the fifty days while in the private worship of their own home they would have transgressed against the canons of the church and performed a sin or action requiring repentance and confession?

There are canons on a wide variety of topics, covering doctrine, communal worship, when to baptize, allowing animals in the church, private practice and many other things. This website might prove helpful: The Canons of the Orthodox Church (http://aggreen.net/canons/canons.html).

[Mourad Mankarios]

There are canons on a wide variety of topics, covering doctrine, communal worship, when to baptize, allowing animals in the church, private practice and many other things. This website might prove helpful: The Canons of the Orthodox Church (http://aggreen.net/canons/canons.html).

I'm sorry I was actually referring the canons forbidding prostrations or kneeling on Sundays and during the fifty days.

[Mourad Mankarios]

Actually I already have on more than one occasion, you might try reading here (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=54579&postcount=2). I hope you find it useful.

Are you suggesting here that we are free to pick and choose which canons we would like to abide by or that it is up to the clergyman or bishop to enforce whichever canons he pleases?

[Herman Blaydoe]

I'm sorry I was actually referring the canons forbidding prostrations or kneeling on Sundays and during the fifty days.

Well, as I previously stated, the canons specifically mentioned do not use the word "forbid" and seem to be more relating to communal worship in this particular case. At any rate, there is a theological principle that is expounded on in reason NOT to kneel during these times as explained. If someone chose to kneel for their own personal reasons, I don't know that it requires confession, but you might want to check with your own priest on the subject.

[Mourad Mankarios]

Well, as I previously stated, the canons specifically mentioned do not use the word "forbid" and seem to be more relating to communal worship in this particular case. At any rate, there is a theological principle that is expounded on in reason NOT to kneel during these times as explained. If someone chose to kneel for their own personal reasons, I don't know that it requires confession, but you might want to check with your own priest on the subject.

I don't think that's so much a theological reason as it is a symbolic one, ie there's no real theology here it is only symbolism that's all. That is there is no dogma or article of faith or doctrine of Orthodoxy that is being accepted or denied by the individual that prostrates themselves or the individual who refrains from prostrating themselves. For either individual prostration is an act of worship just as it was performed by the disciples and apostles in adoration of the risen Lord.

[Herman Blaydoe]

I don't think that's so much a theological reason as it is a symbolic one, ie there's no real theology here it is only symbolism that's all. That is there is no dogma or article of faith or doctrine of Orthodoxy that is being accepted or denied by the individual that prostrates themselves or the individual who refrains from prostrating themselves. For either individual prostration is an act of worship just as it was performed by the disciples and apostles in adoration of the risen Lord.

OK. I don't mean to argue, certainly. I can accept that it is a symbol of the joy that the bridegroom is with us, in that Christ has Risen (which would be the theological principle being expressed, but that may well be merely a semantic issue). Some people feel very strongly about it and claim that no kneeling is allowed. I don't think that is the intent of the canon nor the sentiment, so if some our parishioners choose to kneel on Sunday or during the Pentecostarion, I don't worry about it. What people do in their private devotions is between them and God, and hopefully their spiritual confessor/father.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Are you suggesting here that we are free to pick and choose which canons we would like to abide by or that it is up to the clergyman or bishop to enforce whichever canons he pleases?

Yes and no. But like a doctor in prescribing a particular treatment for a particular disease, there are protocols that are followed or sometimes disregarded, depending on the circumstances and situation. Yes, this does require discernment and no, it should not be done arbitrarily.

It is not a matter of what we like or what pleases us, but what is appropriate for the situation at hand. Just like a layperson shouldn't simply go out and buy "Grey's Anatomy" and try to operate on a friend, a layperson should not simply pick canons and rigorously try to enforce them. We see what this leads to in the various factions that work to divide the Church. Tools used by the unskilled cause damage, tools used by the skilled produce beauty.

But for two different people with the same problem, two different protocols might be called for to treat it. This canon might be more appropriate for this person, that canon might be better for the other. This canon was meant to address a specific problem at a specific time, and might not be quite so helpful for this particular problem in this particular time. We do not put our bishops in straightjackets, nor do we tell them that they must use this particular hammer regardless. He is trusted to use the appropriate tool for the appropriate job.

Some canons apply for everyone all the time. Some don't. That is why we have bishops, that is why they get to wear the jeweled hats. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable may explain it better.

Herman

[Herman Blaydoe]

Is it possible to distinguish here between conducting prayers while kneeling and the act of making a prostration?

From the article I originally linked to (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/kneeling.aspx):


The canons concerning bows and kneelings now accepted by the Orthodox Church and set forth in the books of the divine services, and particularly in the Church Typicon, are observed in monasteries. But in general, Orthodox Christian laymen who have zeal are, of course, permitted to pray on their knees in church and to make full prostrations whenever they wish, excepting only those times when the Gospel, Epistle, Old Testament readings, six psalms and sermon are read. The Holy Church lovingly regards such people, and does not constrain their devout feelings. However, the exceptions with regard to Sundays and the days between Pascha and Pentecost apply generally to everyone. According to ancient tradition and a clear church law, kneeling must not be performed on these days. The brilliant solemnity of the events which the Church commemorates throughout the period of Pentecost and on Sundays precludes, in and of itself, any external manifestation of sorrow or lamentation over one's sins: for ever since Jesus Christ, "blotting out the handwriting of the ordinances that was against us, ... nailing it to His Cross; and having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" (Col. 2:14-15)—ever since then "there is, therefore, no condemnation to them who are in Jesus Christ" (Rom. 8:1). For this reason, the practice was observed in the Church from the earliest times, beyond a doubt handed down by the apostles, whereby on all these days, in that they are consecrated to the commemoration of the glorious victory of Jesus Christ over sin and death, it was required to perform the public divine service brightly and with solemnity, and in particular without kneeling, which is a sign of repentant grief for one's sins. The second century writer Tertullian gives testimony concerning this practice: "On the Lord's Day (i.e. Sunday) we consider it improper to fast or to kneel; and we also enjoy this freedom from Pascha until Pentecost" (On the Crown, ch. 3). St. Peter of Alexandria (3rd cent.—cf. his Canon XV in the Rudder), and the Apostolic Constitutions (Book II, Ch. 59) also say the same thing.

[M.C. Steenberg]

All prostrations are not the same.

There are prostrations made in the central nave, which are most often symbols of repentance in humility (the most famous being those during the Lenten Prayer, but also at many other times). Clergy and all who serve in the altar normally prostrate themselves before it when first passing through the iconostasis, in veneration of its holiness and their unworthiness before it. Clergy make a prostration at the consecration of the holy gifts, after the deacon's threefold 'amen', in veneration of the presence of the Lord; and often another immediately before receiving communion, in humility before receiving the body of the Lord into one's hands.

The canons which forbid prostrations on Sundays do so because these are festal days of rejoicing in the Resurrection, and acts of lenten penitence are seen as unfitting for these days. This clearly relates to the first manner of prostration; and while it is kept strictly, the other types (in the altar) do take place on Sundays.

I am curious to know from those who serve regularly in the altar -- clerics as well as servers -- what their experiences are of the prostrations that take place therein, during the period of Paschaltide (i.e. the Pentecostarion), as in my experience this is extremely varied. I have seen some places where no prostrations are made in the altar at all during the season; others where no variation is made to normal, non-Pentecostarion practice; and everything in between.

I would be grateful for the observations of others.

XB, Dcn Matthew

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Fr Dn Matthew wrote:


All prostrations are not the same.

I am curious to know from those who serve regularly in the altar -- clerics as well as servers -- what their experiences are of the prostrations that take place therein, during the period of Paschaltide (i.e. the Pentecostarion), as in my experience this is extremely varied. I have seen some places where no prostrations are made in the altar at all during the season; others where no variation is made to normal, non-Pentecostarion practice; and everything in between.

I also have seen many practices over the years. Finally I came across the clear instructions found in The Singing of the All Night Vigil & Liturgy compiled by Fr Rostislav Gan, p 66-67 (Jordanville, 1977).

Part of the confusion arises because of the language. In Russian it is quite common to say for example поясные поклоны & земные поклоны. These terms are difficult to translate exactly into English. Even the word prostration I think does not exactly convey what poklon means which implies more a physical posture of reverence.

In any case, in English the difference often is described as that between a bow and a prostration. This I think covers the difference in physical gesture that the Russian has in mind.

However it can confuse things since it leaves out how in Russian both can be thought of as types of poklons.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

What I have been taught is that on Sundays and during the Paschal season (until the leavetaking) prostrations are not done and replaced by a metonia. Thus the 5 prostrations prescribed during the liturgy (immediately after the exclamation "Let us lift up our hands"..."Let us give thanks unto the Lord"; at the consecration of the gifts; at the hymn to the Mother of God; at the Our Father; immediately prior to receiving the mysteries - when the clergyman says "Behold I draw near...") are not done on Sundays, but a metonia is done in the place of it. This seems to be both Holy Trinity Monastery practice and Holy Virgin Cathedral practice.

Fr David Moser

[Paul Cowan]

What I have been taught is that on Sundays and during the Paschal season (until the leavetaking) prostrations are not done and replaced by a metonia. Thus the 5 prostrations prescribed during the liturgy (immediately after the exclamation "Let us lift up our hands"..."Let us give thanks unto the Lord"; at the consecration of the gifts; at the hymn to the Mother of God; at the Our Father; immediately prior to receiving the mysteries - when the clergyman says "Behold I draw near...") are not done on Sundays, but a metonia is done in the place of it. This seems to be both Holy Trinity Monastery practice and Holy Virgin Cathedral practice.

Fr David Moser

Father did not prostrate before today as he normally does before the holy gifts. (Antiochian)

Paul

[Mourad Mankarios]

It would seem to me that this appears to be somewhat inconsistent in that just as one may sin on a Sunday and during the fifty days one would expect such a person to repent and perform acts of penitence, even akin to that of the lenten period if need be. I don't think that Sundays and the fifty days eliminate this fact that we continue to sin even during these days and are in much need of continued acts of penitence such as fasting and prostrations, means of grace, which the church somehow seems to deny its people during these days.

This is why I thought that perhaps the historical prohibition was possibly against some formal worship that was performed while kneeling and not against the act of prostration itself. Or again perhaps that it was limited to the formal worship of the church and did not extend to the private lives and worship of the people.

[Herman Blaydoe]

It would seem to me that this appears to be somewhat inconsistent in that just as one may sin on a Sunday and during the fifty days one would expect such a person to repent and perform acts of penitence, even akin to that of the lenten period if need be. I don't think that Sundays and the fifty days eliminate this fact that we continue to sin even during these days and are in much need of continued acts of penitence such as fasting and prostrations, means of grace, which the church somehow seems to deny its people during these days.

This is why I thought that perhaps the historical prohibition was possibly against some formal worship that was performed while kneeling and not against the act of prostration itself. Or again perhaps that it was limited to the formal worship of the church and did not extend to the private lives and worship of the people.

Indeed, many of us sin throughout the year, why shouldn't we fast and mourn for our sins continually, why does the Church pick specific times of the year to emphasize fasting such as Great and Holy Lent? Shouldn't we do this the entire year? But the Church in her wisdom provides seasons of preparation and instruction. Just as summer turns to autumn turns to winter turns to spring, the spiritual seasons have their own features and points of emphasis. Great Lent is the time of special and intense preparation and the Pentecostarion is the time of intense celebration. We are participating with the Apostles in the events of heilgeschicte (Salvation History), not simply remembering them. Christ is Risen and we rejoice! Christ is Risen and death is trampled upon! The Bridegroom is WITH US and penitence and fasting is inappropriate.

I must say all this talk of forbidding and prohibition introduces elements that are NOT found in the references I have posted. These words are not used in the canons themselves as far as I can see. Prostrations, kneeling, severe penitence are not appropriate for these glad times of feasting and joy. This is a distinct and different time. Christ is Risen and we are still celebrating the feast! Christ is Risen and the leavetaking has not arrived. However, if someone, for their own personal reasons, feels the need to kneel, he shall not be excommunicated, he commits no sin (according to what I posted at least). He should not be judged. But such activities are not what the Church is emphasizing in this season of rejoicing. Such activities will get their due at the appropriate time, and obedience counts for something, don't you think?

He who kneels during this time does so for reasons known to God and him. To do so privately is between that person and God. To do so publically is a bit more problematic. There is danger that the person might be aggrandizing themselves and their "sinfulness" over the others. Of course, those who do not kneel should not judge that person (according to what I read), since this is between that person and God, but to publically differentiate yourself from all the others should be done with caution and discernment. All things are lawful, but not all things are convenient. That is all I am saying.

[Anthony Stokes]

Prostrations, kneeling, severe penitence are not appropriate for these glad times of feasting and joy. This is a distinct and different time. .


Just to add to this, I think the fact that at Pentecost we have an entire service dedicated to the reinstitution of kneeling, says a lot. The Kneeling Prayers assume in a way that we have not been prostrating or kneeling during the past 50 days.

An interesting question I have always had is why is there a difference between jurisdictions with regards to kneeling during Liturgy on Sundays? I grew up in a Greek church that would kneel during "We hymn Thee, We bless Thee" but at no other times. Yet, the Russians do not kneel at all on Sundays but at least 4 other times during a weekday Liturgy. I just wonder where the differences in practice came from.

Subdeacon Anthony

[Moses Ibrahim]

It would seem to me that this appears to be somewhat inconsistent in that just as one may sin on a Sunday and during the fifty days one would expect such a person to repent and perform acts of penitence, even akin to that of the lenten period if need be. I don't think that Sundays and the fifty days eliminate this fact that we continue to sin even during these days and are in much need of continued acts of penitence such as fasting and prostrations, means of grace, which the church somehow seems to deny its people during these days.

This is why I thought that perhaps the historical prohibition was possibly against some formal worship that was performed while kneeling and not against the act of prostration itself. Or again perhaps that it was limited to the formal worship of the church and did not extend to the private lives and worship of the people.

I know some priests who say that people should not follow the canons "forbidding prostrations on saturdays and sundays" when they have an epitimia (or penance to do [basically a set number of prostrations in their penance]).

There are also some people who have prostrations in their daily prayer rule, and what is recommended well at least by my spiritual father is that prostrations should be done everyday of the week except Saturday and Sundays and Pascha to Pentecost, were they are replaced with metonias.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

Having the discussion of this thread in mind, I came across the following from a text put out by the Old Ritualists within the ROCOR. What is described relates to the 'old rite' practices, but has relevance / is of interest to the discussion here:

"Prostrations are made at times and at prayers that are often different than for other Orthodox accustomed to the diminution of prostrations made by and after the Patriarch Nikon. A study needs to be made to determine exactly what the canons of the Church meant when they prohibited prayer "on bended knees" at certain times. For example, the service books used in the Old Rite, and used by all Russian Orthodox prior to the reforms of Patriarch Nikon, specifically direct prostrations at the Kissing of the Gospel at Sunday Matins, or at It is truly Meet... at the end of Liturgy, and even at the end of Shine, Shine, New Jerusalem... all during the Paschal season. While one might argue the propriety of making these prostrations, it must be understood the service books directing these prostrations are hundreds of years old and pre-date the schism in the Russian Church by many decades, if not centuries. Thus, these prostrations are not "Old Believer oddities" but the semi-ancient if not ancient practice of the Russian Orthodox Church." (source (http://www.churchofthenativity.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=50))

XB, Dcn Matthew

[Michael Astley]

I am curious to know from those who serve regularly in the altar -- clerics as well as servers -- what their experiences are of the prostrations that take place therein, during the period of Paschaltide (i.e. the Pentecostarion), as in my experience this is extremely varied. I have seen some places where no prostrations are made in the altar at all during the season; others where no variation is made to normal, non-Pentecostarion practice; and everything in between.

At my parish and at the Dormition Cathedral in Chiswick, there are no prostrations in the altar on Sundays. I haven't served at either on a weekday during Pentecost so cannot say.

I visited a parish on Sunday where the most peculiar thing happened. At the eipklesis, all those at the southernmost part of the church remained standing while those at the northernmost part of the church made a full prostration, with everybody in between making a form of reverence lowering by degrees as they stood neaer the north. I try not to be distracted by what other people are doing at moments like that but I couldn't help but notice this and, being the south side I felt somewhat inadequate for not being in what appeared to be the piety "hotspot". I can only imagine it must have had something to do with the underfloor heating.

[Father David Moser]

all those at the southernmost part of the church remained standing while those at the northernmost part of the church made a full prostration, with everybody in between making a form of reverence lowering by degrees as they stood neaer the north.

Ooooh - the liturgical "wave". I've never seen it done before - it must have been exciting to be part of it.

Fr David Moser

[Robert Hegwood]

This thread has left me a little confused, perhaps someone can order its contents a bit for me. I know as a rule we do not prostrate on Sundays, though given where one is and what one is doing and the time of year there are exceptions like feasts venerating the Cross.

So, on Sundays
Does one make one or more prostrations upon entering the Altar to serve or to read? If one is carrying the epistle should one just bow, metanoia, or do nothing?

During the service on Sundays (Orthos and Liturgy)when if at all does one make prostrations? Does practice during Lent change?

On other days
Does one make one or more prostrations upon entering the Altar to serve or to read?

One of the posters above mentioned making prostrations on 5 different occasions during a weekday liturgy, I have only seen prostrations made at the consecration of the gifts (at the 3x Amen)...and rarely that since we seldom have midweek or Saturday services. I do think I recall once singing the Our Father standing on our knees during a Sat. Liturgy at another temple. What is the traditional practice?

Thank you.

[Michael Astley]

Ooooh - the liturgical "wave". I've never seen it done before - it must have been exciting to be part of it.

Fr David Moser

:)

I'm not sure about exciting. It was certainly perplexing. The thing is that the wave didn't so much move across the church. The formation of the wave was there but it was sort of static. I'll stop now because I'm probably making no sense. I'll see what happens next time I go.


One of the posters above mentioned making prostrations on 5 different occasions during a weekday liturgy, I have only seen prostrations made at the consecration of the gifts (at the 3x Amen)...and rarely that since we seldom have midweek or Saturday services. I do think I recall once singing the Our Father standing on our knees during a Sat. Liturgy at another temple. What is the traditional practice.

From memory, I think that prostrations would be made at:

"It is meet and right to worship the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit..."
The deacon's triple "Amen" at the end of the epiklesis.
At the Our Father, remaining prostrate throughout.
At the "With fear of God and with faith draw near" when the priest emerges with the Holy Things.

From what I have seen, these are all replaced with metanias on non-prostrating days, as are the prostrations of the clergy and servers when entering the altar.

If there's another prostration during the Liturgy, I'm not sure of it. Could it perhaps be the "Come, let us Worship and fall down" of the Little Entrance?

In Christ,
Michael

[Father David Moser]

The thing is that the wave didn't so much move across the church. The formation of the wave was there but it was sort of static.

Now we know for certain that this is an Orthodox phenomenon - it was a standing wave. (sorry I just couldn't resist that)

Fr David Moser

[Joshua G.]

I am curious to know from those who serve regularly in the altar -- clerics as well as servers -- what their experiences are of the prostrations that take place therein, during the period of Paschaltide (i.e. the Pentecostarion), as in my experience this is extremely varied. I have seen some places where no prostrations are made in the altar at all during the season; others where no variation is made to normal, non-Pentecostarion practice; and everything in between.

I go to a US parish under the Patriarch of Moscow. All of us prostrate before the Holy Gifts after the Paraclesis (forgive me if I have used this incorrectly but what I am referring to is when he asks the Holy Spirit to "make this bread..." etc. and ends it with an "Amen, Amen, Amen"). The only time we do not do this is on and after Pasch up until, if memory serves, Pentecost.

Apart from that, no one outside of the Altar ever prostrates except for the widow of a Coptic priest who is a member of our parish and this only from time to time. Oh, and also on the Sunday of the Kneeling Prayers and Wednesday Presanctified's, but for obvious reasons, this doesn't go against the Canons.

I wanted to add a word of thanks the gentleman who posted the GOArch link referring to Canon XX. I had always heard prostrations were "forbidden" on Sundays and always found this a bit draconian (and, not followed). But reading the actual text (albeit outside of context, so surely I have more to learn) I think "forbidden" is a bit strong. The Earch Church in Her Councils was never shy to make something forbidden unmistakeably forbidden either by employing the actual word or something comparable or ending off the proclamation "Let him be anathema!" Unless the quote in the article is sorely lacking, it seems this was a canon simply for order and create a sense of uniformity throughout the Catholic Church. Surely it was more than a simple suggestion, but I couldn't imagine those bishops also questioning the state of someone's soul upon protrating at a Divine Liturgy unless one prostrated OUT OF a desire to disobey or offend the Church or simply to stick out as more pious, but those would be separate issues.

[Joshua G.]

What I have been taught is that on Sundays and during the Paschal season (until the leavetaking) prostrations are not done and replaced by a metonia. Thus the 5 prostrations prescribed during the liturgy (immediately after the exclamation "Let us lift up our hands"..."Let us give thanks unto the Lord"; at the consecration of the gifts; at the hymn to the Mother of God; at the Our Father; immediately prior to receiving the mysteries - when the clergyman says "Behold I draw near...") are not done on Sundays, but a metonia is done in the place of it. This seems to be both Holy Trinity Monastery practice and Holy Virgin Cathedral practice.

Fr David Moser

I didn't realize there were 5 prescribed prostrations! I'd only experienced the three we do after the consecration. Very interesting!

Joshua G

[Father David Moser]

I didn't realize there were 5 prescribed prostrations! I'd only experienced the three we do after the consecration. Very interesting!

Joshua G

This is the practice in the Russian Church Outside Russia (now an autonomous part of the whole Russian Church). I was taught this practice while at Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville NY and it is consistent throughout the parishes of ROCOR.

Fr David Moser

[Joshua G.]

This is the practice in the Russian Church Outside Russia (now an autonomous part of the whole Russian Church). I was taught this practice while at Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville NY and it is consistent throughout the parishes of ROCOR.

Fr David Moser

I wonder if stricter MP parishes follow this? Our parish doesn't have a very Russian feel to it. It's a hodge-podge of Slavs (1st, 2nd, 4th generation) and converts.

And let me just say Father that I am so glad we are back in full communion again (you'll notice I am under the MP).

Joshua

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

I am still interested in the variations on the particular practices in the altar (forgive this attention to the sub-theme of prostrations in the altar, rather than 'at large').

I would be keen to do a little 'survey' here. In the various practices with which members (priests, deacons and altar servers) have experience, could you tell us the common practice in your church/jurisdiction regarding prostrations on a normal Sunday, not in Great Lent or Paschaltide, at the following points:


On entering the altar (i.e. are three prostrations made, or three metanoia?)
At the various five points Fr David listed, which take place during the Liturgy? (Are prostrations made? Or metanoia? Or nothing?)

I'm particularly keen to note the variations in this for Sundays, not during fasting or feast periods - simply normal resurrectional Sundays.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Kris]

On entering the altar (i.e. are three prostrations made, or three metanoia?)



Three metanoia.




At the various five points Fr David listed, which take place during the Liturgy? (Are prostrations made? Or metanoia? Or nothing?)



Our Bishop normally kneels during the prayers before Holy Communion - "I believe, O Lord, and I confess..." - because these are penitential in nature, and the other clergy follow suit. However, on the Sundays when the Bishop is absent, there is no kneeling.

At the other points during the Liturgy a metanoia is made, if anything.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr Dn Matthew,

In our parish on Sundays we only make metanoia in the Altar. This is what I was taught as a monastic and when I was ordained as a priest and it is the practice I have kept ever since.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Joshua G.]

On entering the altar (i.e. are three prostrations made, or three metanoia?)

Three prostrations (face to the ground) whether on weekdays or Sundays.




At the various five points Fr David listed, which take place during the Liturgy? (Are prostrations made? Or metanoia? Or nothing?)

The only time we do anything like this as my MP parish (of the rare New Calendar Variety from what I understand) is at the concecration- a full prostration. Priest and everyone behind the iconostasis.

[Father Serafim]

In our parish we follow the canon on this. May be some of us would like to make prostrations but in respect to the Church and not according to our own inclinations whether spiritual or emotional, we abstain. I did hear of a parish that thought prostrations were a Moslem practice since they only attended church on Sundays and had never seen anyone prostrate!

[Christophoros]

I am curious to know from those who serve regularly in the altar -- clerics as well as servers -- what their experiences are of the prostrations that take place therein, during the period of Paschaltide (i.e. the Pentecostarion), as in my experience this is extremely varied. I have seen some places where no prostrations are made in the altar at all during the season; others where no variation is made to normal, non-Pentecostarion practice; and everything in between.

I would be grateful for the observations of others.

XB, Dcn Matthew

When I was a server at a ROCOR parish in the early-mid 1990's, we never prostrated on Sundays, without exception.

At the Greek Archdiocese parish my family attends, I've noticed the servers prostrate at the consecration year-round. I don't know if this is the common practice in the GOA, since two of the three servers are from Ethiopian families that may have influenced the practice.

In Christ,
Chris

[Niko T.]

I have a question on a slighly different topic, and I'm not sure if it could belong here, elsewhere, or if it has been addressed already somewhere, but during the Orthros Service reading of the Six-Psalms, the "Glory to the Father..." and Alleluias seem somewhat unique, in that there no prostrations (full or bowing to show reverence) and supposedly even making the sign of the Cross is not allowed. I've heard that this has significance, but I'm not sure what the standard understanding of the symbolism is. Does anyone know?

[Kris]

I've heard that this has significance, but I'm not sure what the standard understanding of the symbolism is. Does anyone know?

I believe it is because these Psalms are related to the Final Judgement. The lack of movement at this time reminds us that we will stand before Christ the Judge.