Converts to Orthodoxy

[Mina Mounir]

Peace,
I was writing a research about converts and conversion to Orthodoxy.
I was looking for statistics and testimonies , but documented statistics are much important.

I know that there is a remarkable movement in the west between different christian confessions who convert to Orthodox church .
I have a book for an Evangelical Professor ( Donald Fairbairn) saying :


" in the last decade , Eastern Orthodoxy has moved from being virtually unknown to Western Christians to being a significant presence on the religious scene in North America and Great Britain. in light of Orthodoxy's growing presence , this book introduce western christians to the eastern orthodox vision of the Christian life ..."
( Donald Fairbairn , Back cover of the book "Eastern Orthodoxy through Western Eyes")


well , I wanna know exactly - as much as possible - about this " growing presence"

the testimonies , justified decisions to go to orthodoxy ...

also, if possible , if any one has characteristics about the weight of Atheism, agnosticism and christianity in the west and if there is an increasing of one over the other in the last 100 years .... I'd be grateful to him if he provides me with such data.

XC Anesti
Mina

[Michael Stickles]

Yow. I wish you luck.

One of the problems you likely will come across is finding reasonably accurate numbers. Even figuring out how many members a given jurisdiction has can be a problem, let alone how many are converts. To take the OCA as an example, here are a few numbers I found from within the last 10 years:

1,064,000 (2006 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches, cited on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_in_America))
750,000 adults and children (OCA media director John Matusiak, quoted in May 8, 2002 Christian Century (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_10_119/ai_87209469))
115,100 adherents (Religious Congregations Membership Study: 2000 (http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/quick_question17.html))
39,400 members (also from the Religious Congregations Membership Study: 2000)
27,169 Census population (continental USA only; reported at 2004 Evangelization Conference (http://www.oca.org/PDF/Evangelization/2004.Parish-Revitalization-notes.pdf) at St. Vladimir's)

Each one of these numbers was arrived at using a different method of counting/estimating.

Even in my own parish, I'm not sure what the number is. Our average attendance has been running ~120 per week, we had ~195 at Pascha, but I don't know what our "membership" is, or even how it's counted (though I've been told about half of it is converts). I do know that since we started attending full-time last September, there have been 13 converts (by baptism and/or chrismation, with my family accounting for 6 of the 13), and there are 5 current catechumens, plus a couple more expected to be enrolled over the next month or so.

Anecdotally, it seems that many of the converts from various Protestant groups are moved towards Orthodoxy as they begin to really look into Church history; that was how it was for my wife and me. However, one of the other converts baptized this Pascha told me he decided to convert immediately after attending his first liturgy - he just knew from that experience that he had found the True Church.

You might want to glance at this article (http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/ReevesEcumenicism.php): "Ecumenical Impact on Orthodox Witness and Mission: A convert's reflections" by Father John Reeves of the OCA - there are a couple of stats about convert clergy in the first section, plus a discussion of some of the reasons why so many converts are coming to Orthodoxy.

Other OCA figures can be obtained from their 13th ACC Parish Profile (http://aac.oca.org/PDF/13thAAC/postaacdocuments/ParishProfilePresentation.pdf) from 2002 (pages 23-27 deal specifically with converts, plus there are some summaries on page 7 of the Overview and Appendices (http://www.oca.org/PDF/13thAAC/minutes/overview.appendices.pdf)).

Hope that's some help.

In Christ,
Mike

[Matthew Namee]

115,100 adherents (Religious Congregations Membership Study: 2000 (http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/quick_question17.html))
This number is from Alexei Krindatch's recent study. If you have access to JSTOR, you should be able to find the full report, which has a lot of interesting information. Here's the relevant bibliographical info:

Alexei D. Krindatch, "Orthodox (Eastern Christian) Churches in the United States at the Beginning of a New Millennium: Questions of Nature, Identity, and Mission," Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 41:3 (Sep 2002), 533-563.

[Mina Mounir]

Dear Mike,
thanks for these numbers and citations , I think they will be helpful for my research and I'm looking forward for more from you and all brothers ...

and also about the point of the percentages between religious , agnostics and atheism in europe and America , which one is increasing and why .. etc.


thanks again

in Christ,
Mina

[Mina Mounir]

well ,
yeah .. I've access to JSTOR .. I'll search and download it ... thanks

[Jen G.]

Peace,
I was writing a research about converts and conversion to Orthodoxy.
I was looking for statistics and testimonies , but documented statistics are much important.


I read the Pew Forum: U.S. Religious Landscape Survey pretty thoroughly and they have some interesting information in there when you drill down. The numbers they are using are based upon how people self-identify both their current religion and the religion they grew up in. It wouldn't track those who convert and then un-convert so does not give a fully picture of those moving in and out of a particular faith.

Anyway, for Orthodoxy:

Total numbers: .6% of the U.S. Population
This is hard to compute because the U.S. census puts the total population at 299,398,484. When you exclude the 24.6% who are under 18 and multiply by .006 you end up with 1,354,478 - which is more than any of the estimates provided by Mike. Since we are dealing with self-identification, it could be that the surveys he cited were not including those who are culturally Orthodox.

Net gain/loss (total # adult adherents - total # adults who were raised Orthodox) 0%
Total number adults who were raised Orthodox and left: .3% of the U.S. Population
Total number adults who were not raised Orthodox and entered: .3% of the U.S. Population

Percentage of all adult Orthodox who converted: 23%
Breakdown of previous religious background of converts (as a percentage of total adult Orthodox): 12% Protestant, 5% Catholic, 1% other, 4% nothing

Percentage of those raised Orthodox who converted to another religion: 21%
Percentage of those raised Orthodox who converted to no relgion: 7%
Percentage of those raised Othodox who are still Orthodox: 73%

[Mina Mounir]

hi again
thanks jen , :


Total number adults who were raised Orthodox and left: .3% of the U.S. Population
well, if Orthodox or .6% of US Population , and total number of raised orthodox and left is .3% , does it mean that 50% of orthodox in america left orthodoxy?


Percentage of those raised Orthodox who converted to another religion: 21%
Percentage of those raised Orthodox who converted to no relgion: 7%
Percentage of those raised Othodox who are still Orthodox: 73%
is this percentage of total orthodox or what ?


Breakdown of previous religious background of converts (as a percentage of total adult Orthodox): 12% Protestant, 5% Catholic, 1% other, 4% nothing
well , I couldn't find this percentage on Pew forum , where can I find its source?

thanks again
XC Anesti
Mina

[Michael Stickles]

Anyway, for Orthodoxy:

Total numbers: .6% of the U.S. Population
This is hard to compute because the U.S. census puts the total population at 299,398,484. When you exclude the 24.6% who are under 18 and multiply by .006 you end up with 1,354,478 - which is more than any of the estimates provided by Mike. Since we are dealing with self-identification, it could be that the surveys he cited were not including those who are culturally Orthodox.

Actually, that matches up pretty well with numbers I've seen for total Orthodox in the U.S.; the numbers I gave were only for the OCA, so the Antiochian, Greek, and other jurisdictions weren't included in them.


and also about the point of the percentages between religious , agnostics and atheism in europe and America , which one is increasing and why .. etc.

Current (well, 1990-2002) population figures for atheist/agnostic/non-religious in the U.S. and in the world, from various sources, can be found at Atheist Empire's stats page (http://www.atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html).

Finally, while I haven't read the whole thing yet, Andrew Greeley and Wolfgang Jagodzinski put together what looks like an interesting article - The Demand for Religion: Hard Core Atheism and "Supply Side" Theory (http://www.agreeley.com/articles/hardcore.html) - which approaches the reasons for the growth or decline of atheism using the tools of economic analysis.

In Christ,
Mike

[Mina Mounir]

well ... can i say now that Orthodoxy is a growing community in the west?
( by the way , previous statistics are for USA , is there anything about Orthodoxy in England?)

thanks

[Jen G.]

I am not a statistician, but I play one on the Internet


well, if Orthodox or .6% of US Population , and total number of raised orthodox and left is .3% , does it mean that 50% of orthodox in america left orthodoxy?

I am a little confused by the statistics, but some of it may be rounding error and the fact that each table is tracking different things. My reading from this is that the total number of people who claim Orthodoxy as their childhood religion is .6% of the adult population. The total number of people who claim Orthodoxy as their adult religion is also .6% of the adult population.

However

The number of people who claim that their childhood religion was Orthodox and their current relgious affiliation (or non-affiliation) is something else is about .3% of the population. The number claiming the opposite is also about .3% of the population. So, while there has been no overall net loss or gain as a whole, it is clear that the numbers are stagnant because those who have 'left' Orthodoxy are being replaced by those who enter it at nearly a 1-to-1 ratio. The numbers are a little misleading, though, because of the small number of Orthodox when compared to the general population. Also, this is a survey which means that the actual numbers of people interviewed were very small (probably 500 or less for Orthodox and former-Orthodox) so expect error.

Further down, we learn that 73% of people who were raised Orthodox remain Orthodox in identification. When you break it down this equates to .43% of the US population, which means the reverse is .27% and was probably rounded up to .3%. So, roughly a little more than 1/4 of those raised Orthodox have ended up elsewhere. One missing statistic that would be interesting is how many of those are immigrants vs. native born. Further in the report you find that although Orthodox make up only .6% and .4% of native born American's identify as Orthodox, 1.8% of those born in a foreign country claim Orthodoxy. This equates to 38% of all Orthodox being foreign born and a further 38% of those are from Eastern Europe. My suspicion is that many of the raised-Orthodox-and-left are predominantly those born and raised in the former Soviet republic. Where I live we have several Ukranian nominal-Orthodox-turned-pentecostals that would fall in this category.


is this percentage of total orthodox or what ?

Yes, those are the percentages of adults who self-identify as being Orthodox.

Other random information:

For age breakdown, Orthodox almost exactly match the population averages (IOW neither aging nor youthening)

For race breakdown, mostly white but at population average for asian and mixed race. Roughly half the average for black and significantly underrepresented among hispanics. (something like 1% compared to 12%)

For education breakdown, Orthodox have a high percentage of members who have graduated college or have some post-graduate education. For total with some college or more, Orthodox are just behind Hindu. In terms of post-graduate alone we are behind Hindu, Jewish, and Buddhist.

For income breakdown, Orthodox are very firmly middle and upper class with over 28% making more than 100,000 a year. This is 10 points higher than the general population.

Finally - as regards the future of Orthodoxy in the US, we are under the general population in terms of the number of children under 18 living at home. 70% have none, 9% one (vs 13%), 14% two (vs. 13%) and 6% three or more (vs. 9%)


well , I couldn't find this percentage on Pew forum , where can I find its source?

You want the U.S. Religious Landscape Survey at: http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

Chapter 2 deals with changes in religious affiliation (applicable for tracking converts). Chapter 3 with demographics.

[Mina Mounir]

well , thanks so much , Jen.
the pdf. file of chapter 2 is helpful , it contains valuable tables.
the interesting part is that orthodoxy in USA is not losing as the main christian confessions of america.
it was expected to find that agnosticism is growing rapidly . it has social reasons , but I'll try to collect it.

I hope that orthodoxy could grow between americans more.
one of the provided articles here was on orthodoxy today website , it states an interesting fact which is that 50% of the students of st.Vladimir orthodox seminary classes are converting , which means that orthodoxy is a satisfying answer to the inquires of applicants.

thanks for the help.
XC Anesti

[Jen G.]

well , thanks so much , Jen.
the pdf. file of chapter 2 is helpful , it contains valuable tables.
the interesting part is that orthodoxy in USA is not losing as the main christian confessions of america.

One of the interesting statistics is that, of the Trinitarian Christian faiths, Orthodoxy has by far the largest percentage of converts (23% vs 11% catholic and 16% protestant). Unfortunately, pretty much all of Christianity in this country is losing out to atheism, unafilliated, and non-Christian faiths like buddhism and islam.

One statistic I wish they had tracked is the percentage of each group that claims regular church attendance and participation.

[Owen Jones]

I hate to be the fly in the ointment, but none of these statistics are particularly accurate, meaningful, or valuable. Case in point -- 23% of American Orthodox are converts? The GOC is by far, by a huge degree, the largest Orthodox jurisdiction. Followed probably by Antioch. Then the OCA. Then I don't know. Maybe Serbs? If you add them all together, conservatively, you have about 1-2 million people. That means that 230,000 - 460,000 are converts. Hogwash. Now, if the figure only applies to the OCA, that I can accept it. That would mean about 10,000 converts, which sounds about right.

I attend a large cathedral parish with maybe 2500 members, and, other than "mixed" marriages, I would say that there are maybe 10 converts, less than one half of one per cent.

The only way around this impasse is to actually do a scientific study, which is very expensive and time consuming. Using Church data is unreliable. Using self-response survey data is unreliable.

[Paul Cowan]

I have a relatively small Antioch parish only about 80 families perhaps 90. I would guestimate 80%+ are converts. We have relatively few cradles. Our mother church, St. George, is over 150 families and is probably 90% cradle.

Paul

[Mina Mounir]

well , I found somehting maybe interesting if anyone likes to read about this issue ,
Research on Orthodox Religious Groups in the United States :


http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/orthodoxindex.html

Table 2 Origins, Growth & Current Development (http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/tab2.pdf)



XC anesti

[Owen Jones]

This may be easier to follow:

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/quick_question17.html

According to Fr. Krindach, there are no statistics on converts, but a survey he conducted showed that out of the four Orthodox seminaries in the U.S., 50% of the students were converts. That means in the Russian seminaries it's probably something like 75%, since very few converts become Greek Orthodox priests. It's simply too demanding since you have to be fluent in Greek, and, let's face it, you really need to know Greek culture.

This sets up a problem, because there are really too many convert priests, and not enough ethnic priests. There is especially a shortage of Greek priests. The problem is that when a convert becomes Orthodox, he is especially zealous, and, unfortunately in Orthodoxy today, the only way to really express that is by going into the clergy. Otherwise, what do you do? Serve on parish committees? Go to suppers? Sing in the choir? Maybe become a reader? That's about it. Whereas in the RC and protestant churches there are all kinds of functions and resources for lay people to become evangelists, etc.

I would suggest contacting Fr. K direct for some ideas on how to best estimate the number of converts, and the trends one way or another. He may have some good ideas or guestimates but hasn't published them.

[Mina Mounir]

This sets up a problem, because there are really too many convert priests, and not enough ethnic priests. There is especially a shortage of Greek priests. The problem is that when a convert becomes Orthodox, he is especially zealous, and, unfortunately in Orthodoxy today, the only way to really express that is by going into the clergy. Otherwise, what do you do? Serve on parish committees? Go to suppers? Sing in the choir? Maybe become a reader? That's about it. Whereas in the RC and protestant churches there are all kinds of functions and resources for lay people to become evangelists, etc.
unfotunately YES . sometimes I ask myself ( as a former coptic and now a greek orthodox ) should I be " Orthodox " or " Greek Orthodox " ? I love all the details of my church , but still I can't pray with my greek priests , I pray with antiochenes who are in Egypt because they use Arabic language and I find myself between them as one of them ( not exactly :D ).
besides , I want to do alot for my church and people , but I don't find any thing to do , while - as u said - I find my catholic and protestant friends in my age do many things.
I don't know what about russian church in USA , but I hope there could be more harmony between the variety of ethnicities and Orthodoxy as a faith.


I would suggest contacting Fr. K direct for some ideas on how to best estimate the number of converts, and the trends one way or another. He may have some good ideas or guestimates but hasn't published them.
well, the topic is important for me , so I'll do my best.

thanks

[Kosta]

On Long Island where i belong to THE GOARCH. Growth has come mainly from intermarriage. When i was young in the late 70's there was only 2 GOA parishes in Nassau County Long Island, the larger of the two (if i remember correctly) has about 2200 members, today that number remains steady or perhaps a slight drop. But there has been 5 more parishes added since then, with 2 of those churches having quite the large membership.

Also in the late 80's, i moved to the adjacent county where the church (the one I currently attend), would only average about 25 parishioners on a sunday. This was due mostly to to a lackluster ministry by the previous inept priests, Finally a few years later we got an excellent priest and when he was transfered an equally goos priest replaced him, today Sundays are packed and even talk of expanding. This years Anastasi service i would guesstimate over 1,000 worshippers were present. Also another church nearby for many years used a small church, they just recently built a new much larger church.

Since greek emigration basically leveled out in the late 70's this growth has come mostly from first and second generation marriages and intermarriages.

[Jen G.]

The only way around this impasse is to actually do a scientific study, which is very expensive and time consuming. Using Church data is unreliable. Using self-response survey data is unreliable.

I disagree that a self-response survey is unreliable, it just depends on what you are trying to track. The numbers from Pew regard those who self-identify as being Orthodox, however it does not track adherence or participation. Under these conditions 23% is not an unfeasible number. OTOH, the law of small numbers might have caused a disproporationate inflation or deflation.

In my west coast area there are a large number of converts. We have two parishes that converted en masse on different occasions. The main cathedral for the OCA is about 60% convert and the daughter mission of theirs I attend is probably in the 80's.

[Owen Jones]

Yes, there are those examples, but the OCA represents a tiny number relative to the Greek Church. And the convert parishes in Antioch are few in number.

[Michael Stickles]

Yes, there are those examples, but the OCA represents a tiny number relative to the Greek Church. And the convert parishes in Antioch are few in number.

I don't know about "tiny" - OCA's claimed membership is fully half that of GOArch's, and it only drops to one-fourth if you look at the "adherents" numbers from Alexei Krindatch's study (he didn't have full member data for GOArch). The OCA accounts for almost one-eighth of all adherents counted in Krindatch's study.

I do note that Krindatch's study did not come up with counts of adherents for ROCOR, the Serbian and Coptic Orthodox Churches, and the Patriarchal parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church. That's 317 parishes, with ROCOR and the Coptic church having 244 of those (compared to 2,257 parishes in the 18 jurisdictions he has counts for).

Average adherents per parish in his study ranges from 76 (Holy Orthodox Church in North America) to 2,001 (Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East), with an overall average of 416. GOArch averaged 838, and the OCA 252. I'm not sure what kind of averages you could expect the four "uncounted" jurisdictions to have, but if ROCOR's average parish size and convert percentage is comparable to the OCA's (which would match things I've read elsewhere), then converts in the OCA and ROCOR would account for around 3.5% +/- 0.3% of all adherents to Orthodoxy in the USA, depending on number of adherents in the other three "uncounted" jurisdictions.

Ah, the joys of statistics. Never understood why some of my students called it "sadistics".

In Christ,
Mike