Is the devil real?

[James Haddad]

I know that many people on this board seem to accept that the devil is real based on thread titles like "is the devil saved?". While I also accept that he is real, I have a couple of pious and well educated friends who are convinced that the devil and all evil spirits are not real. They continue to try and explain how all the exorcisms in the Bible have to be understood allegorically, and try and use various other explanations to explain him away. Is there anything in the Father's writing about this? I could really use some help in my argument with them. I have always thought that, our thinking that the devil is not real, is exactly what he wants.

Love in Christ

James

[Andreas Moran]

See, 'St Seraphim of Sarov A Spiritual Biography' by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore, chapter IX called, 'Are the Torments of Hell a Reality?' St Seraphim persuaded the worldy Motovilov that devils are a 'stark and bitter reality' (p. 210).

See also, 'Saint Silouan the Athonite' by Archimandrite Sophrony (Sakharov), p. 42, where a devil stopped the saint from praying, and pp. 202-203 where Elder Sophrony speaks of the struggle against Satan.

There must be countless other references from the Fathers.
There is also, of course, Christ's own word, perhaps, for these purposes, most emphatically in John 8:44 where He says 'the devil . . . was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of lies'.

[Mike O'Grady]

I believe that the devil is real, and I also believe that in all too many cases the human ego is a devil, or can be.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I know that many people on this board seem to accept that the devil is real based on thread titles like "is the devil saved?". While I also accept that he is real, I have a couple of pious and well educated friends who are convinced that the devil and all evil spirits are not real. They continue to try and explain how all the exorcisms in the Bible have to be understood allegorically, and try and use various other explanations to explain him away. Is there anything in the Father's writing about this? I could really use some help in my argument with them. I have always thought that, our thinking that the devil is not real, is exactly what he wants.

Love in Christ

James

Perhaps you could point them along the lines of the abuse of free will.

Is evil real in this present state? I don't think anyone could deny this.

Evil then as real within us or within fallen spirits is only a matter of location, of who or what is making the choice, not of whether evil in itself is real.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Ken McRae]

While I also accept that he is real, I have a couple of pious and well educated friends who are convinced that the devil and all evil spirits are not real.

I have encountered something similar to this, in a Greek Orthodox priest once, who tried to convince me that the devil "existed," but did'nt really. At the time, I had very little exposure to Orthodoxy, and what he seemed to be saying seemed a "little" foreign to me, on account of my "Western" mindset.

The memory of our conversation is a little "foggy by now," but I seem to recall him defining "existence" in terms of participating in God; and "non-existence" in terms of being cut-off from Him; or being cast into "out-darkness." It seemed like he was saying that only God exists, ultimately, and those who particpate in Him.

In other words, he seemed to be saying that since satan has been cut-off from God, in the "ultimate and highest sense, there is some real sense in which he does not really exist. I confess it was a long time ago, and I might've misunderstood what he was trying to say; but that is what I can faintly recall. Perhaps there are others here who will have a better idea of what he meant, than I do.



I have always thought that, our thinking that the devil is not real, is exactly what he wants.

So have I; and I still do.

[Paul Cowan]

I know that many people on this board seem to accept that the devil is real based on thread titles like "is the devil saved?". While I also accept that he is real, I have a couple of pious and well educated friends who are convinced that the devil and all evil spirits are not real. They continue to try and explain how all the exorcisms in the Bible have to be understood allegorically, and try and use various other explanations to explain him away. Is there anything in the Father's writing about this? I could really use some help in my argument with them. I have always thought that, our thinking that the devil is not real, is exactly what he wants.

Love in Christ

James

There is good and there is bad.

There is right and there is wrong.

There is white and there is black.

There is love and there is hate.

There is God and there is the Devil.

How can you have the one without the other? In whatever form it manifests itself in. God Himself said He will write His laws on our hearts. Why if everything was good?

Paul

[Demetrios]

There is good and there is bad.

There is right and there is wrong.

There is white and there is black.

There is love and there is hate.

There is God and there is the Devil.

How can you have the one without the other? In whatever form it manifests itself in. God Himself said He will write His laws on our hearts. Why if everything was good?

Paul

Maybe he exists now but will not in the final age?

[Paul Cowan]

Why do you come to this conclusion? If man is to exist in the final age, why would satan not? If evil were to be erased by God, then there would be no need of a Final Judgement since God would not have competition for man's heart.

Paul

[Andrew]

Of course the devil is real. He works best when people don't believe he exists!

Also, there are countless stories (even up to now) of the exorcism of demons, the combat of the saints with demons and the devil, and day to day struggles with demonic attack among the faithful. This is a part of the Church militant. If the Church militant does not know who her enemy is, how can she fight the good fight?

[Demetrios]

Why do you come to this conclusion? If man is to exist in the final age, why would satan not? If evil were to be erased by God, then there would be no need of a Final Judgement since God would not have competition for man's heart.

Paul

Did the things you posted on the right of the column exist before the fall? I believe they didn't. Not because they didn't exist altogether or couldn't exist but because we choose not to allow them to exist. We give them life. That would make them a choice for separation. What that separation is, is determined by our being a creation.
If God was a light bulb and I physically unscrewed the bulb. Would it be God that is responsible for the lights going out?

[Paul Cowan]

Did the things you posted on the right of the column exist before the fall? I believe they didn't. Not because they didn't exist altogether or couldn't exist but because we choose not to allow them to exist. We give them life. That would make them a choice for separation. What that separation is, is determined by our being a creation.
If God was a light bulb and I physically unscrewed the bulb. Would it be God that is responsible for the lights going out?

Forgive me, on the right of what column? I don't understand the first sentence.

If what you mean is it is a choice for man to unscrew God's "light" and the result is our fall, keep in mind, before the devil tempted Eve these thoughts were not in mans' heart. God did create a "good" thing in man. There was no guile in him. It was only after Satan tempted man into thinking thoughts he had not previously been disposed to do did he sin.

Is God responsible? God permitted it. Is He to blame? No. It was man's self will to follow satan rather than God's simple instructions. For reference, see Job. God permitted his trials, He was not responsible for them. Satan was.

Paul

[Antonios]

Dear James,

The question you ask is a very interesting one. The teachings of the Holy Fathers are pretty consistent in stating yes the devil is real. Another interesting question is how is he real? In what way is he real?

Example: My pain and suffering is real to me. Is my experiencing it that which makes it real? Is what provides life to this experience the effects occurring within me or the initial inciting encounter or event?

Further, does my experiencing it make it real to you or anyone else? In essence, is there an objective reality to a relative experience?

These are difficult questions to answer.

An easy way to see it is like this: A stone drops in a lake and its rippling waves spread throughout. How are those waves real? By the action of the stone or the action in the water?

Logically, it must be both.

Likewise, how is death and decay real? By both the devil and the evil he spreads.

That is why our struggle is against both the stone and the rippling waves that follow. It is a work both outwardly and inwardly. A complete spread of righteousness. A natural spread of light. It is a yearning desire for God's love which is True Life everlasting, where the devil has no existence because God is purely Good. It is the Kingdom of Heaven as promised by the Lord.

In Christ,
Antonios

[Demetrios]

I'm sorry Paul. I was referring to the columns you posted.


There is good and there is bad.

There is right and there is wrong.

There is white and there is black.

There is love and there is hate.

There is God and there is the Devil.

[Paul Cowan]

That makes sense now. Thank you.

No, God made nothing bad. I don't believe these things existed either before the fall. That is before the fall of Satan. He was cast down from the heavens as if a bolt of lightning. From him all evil comes. Man was fine until he/she was approached by the satan. From this is where our fall comes. Ho wlong was satan cast down before man came on the scene? who knows.

In each Day, God said "it was good". Including the Day of man. So perhaps Satan was not cast down until after man was created? Otherwise, God made all things good into a defiled world? This does not sound right.

Paul

[James Haddad]

I guess I should clarify what it means to be "real" in this instance.

Real would be meaning that the devil is a fallen angel. He has a history, personality, will, makes decisions, and can purposefully function in deliberate ways.

The side that says he is unreal would be saying that he is a power. A symbol of the evil or rebellion inside of humanity. Or that the devil is a generic word for the desire of the human to not do good.

I hope this clarifies my point.

For me part of my concern is, is there any patristic text or tradition whatsoever that would suggest saying the devil is real in the above sense unacceptable.

In Christ,

James

[Demetrios]

I guess I should clarify what it means to be "real" in this instance.

Real would be meaning that the devil is a fallen angel. He has a history, personality, will, makes decisions, and can purposefully function in deliberate ways.

The side that says he is unreal would be saying that he is a power. A symbol of the evil or rebellion inside of humanity. Or that the devil is a generic word for the desire of the human to not do good.

I hope this clarifies my point.

For me part of my concern is, is there any patristic text or tradition whatsoever that would suggest saying the devil is real in the above sense unacceptable.

In Christ,

James

If the devil didn't exist than no one would sin. Sin a learned by seeing or having an example of the action. If the introduction to sin never was . Nobody could possible ever know what sin was.
The only way of truly seeing this is to imagine yourself as a baby. You become a person through your relationships with others. You take on traits from your peers and choose witch example you like best and than make them your own. Without even consciously knowing, you pick up others characteristics. You keep what you like and leave what you don't. This becomes the person you are today. If Adam never had an example of what sin was. He wouldn't know any sin. So the devil must be real. Hope this helps.

[Paul Cowan]

Revelation 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Also type Devil in BibleGateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=devil&version1=50&searchtype=all&startnumber=26)and you get all these references to an entity; not a power. Jesus was tempted in the desert by an entity not a symbolic tendency. The devil is very real. In the Creed "I believe in all things visible and invisible", it does not say I believe in generic naughtyness.

Paul

[Antonios]

I guess I should clarify what it means to be "real" in this instance.

Real would be meaning that the devil is a fallen angel. He has a history, personality, will, makes decisions, and can purposefully function in deliberate ways.



Dear James,

Yes. I think the patristic testimony is that the devil is indeed a fallen angel, with a history, whose willful decisions led to his fall and separation from God.

In Christ,
Antonios

[Patrick Lee]

I also suspect that our ability to see the Devil and his minions is a function of our own blindness. I'm reminded of some stories by Papa Demitri out at the Nativity of the Theotokos about children seeing Angels during the Divine Liturgy that were "hidden" from the view of the adults. I think our worldly cares dull our spiritual senses in both directions, our ability to perceive Angels, and our ability to perceive Devils. As we walk around not seeing either, we convince ourselves that neither exist. At the same time, I think we fail to perceive good and evil, and similarly convince ourselves that neither exist.

Of course, this is all my opinion, I don't have a good reference from someone who knows what they're talking about, so take this at face value.

[Antonios]

Dear Patrick,

You make some very important points. The saints of the Church stand witness to this. When the body is purified, the soul is attentive, and the spiritual eyes are focused, then demons can be perceived and can even make physical contact. This has been learned from the experiences of the saints.

In Christ,
Antonios

[Anthony]

I guess I should clarify what it means to be "real" in this instance.

Real would be meaning that the devil is a fallen angel. He has a history, personality, will, makes decisions, and can purposefully function in deliberate ways.


Could a being that didn't have these attributes be described as evil?

[Paul Cowan]

Since God only made good things and it was the free will of the created to sin then it seems to me, man is also evil as God described to Noah before the flood. We do not consider animals as evil since they think out of instinct. I would say since they do not have a soul as we know it, then they do not have the capacity for good or evil.

We only know of angels and man having a soul. There are good angels and bad angels. There are good people and bad people. But what is it that makes them bad? It is their self will turning from their creator.

Paul