Inspiration in the scriptures

[Mina Mounir]

Peace ,
when we read the New Testament, we find commandments by St.Paul for example , these commandments are like the criteria or a description for the bishop, also that the woman must cover her head in the church. in Rom.13 the relationship between the Christian and the Political authorities.

could we say that such commandments are just personal commandments by st.Paul to certain persons in certain circumstances? consequnetly, can we change it today?

for example :a bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach(1 Ti 3 : 2 )

since we can now say the bishop must not be married , can we today ( with the same authority ) say the bishop can be a woman ?

thanks
XC Anesti

[Deanna Leonti]

1 Tim Ch 3, vs1-6
1 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher, 3 Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity. 5 But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?

"Of one wife"... The meaning is not that every bishop should have a wife (for St. Paul himself had none), but that no one should be admitted to the holy orders of bishop, priest, or deacon, who had been married more than once.


good question...



could we say that such commandments are just personal commandments by st.Paul to certain persons in certain circumstances? consequnetly, can we change it today?

since we can now say the bishop must not be married , can we today ( with the same authority ) say the bishop can be a woman ?


thanks
XC Anesti

1 Tim Ch.2 vs11-15
11 Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed; then Eve. 14 And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression. 15 Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.


I do not know myself, some verses are pick & choose?, or taken literally ?and not taken literally?.

Christos Anesti

Deanna

[Herman Blaydoe]

Peace ,
when we read the New Testament, we find commandments by St.Paul for example , these commandments are like the criteria or a description for the bishop, also that the woman must cover her head in the church. in Rom.13 the relationship between the Christian and the Political authorities.

could we say that such commandments are just personal commandments by st.Paul to certain persons in certain circumstances? consequnetly, can we change it today?

for example :a bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach(1 Ti 3 : 2 )

since we can now say the bishop must not be married , can we today ( with the same authority ) say the bishop can be a woman ?

thanks
XC Anesti

...but not all things are convenient. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

The Church has a Christ-given authority to set (and occasionally change) certain policies to maintain good order and discipline, as long as it does not attempt to change the Apostolic Witness handed down by Christ and revealed through the Holy Spirit. This is clearly evidenced in the Council of Jerusalem as recorded in the Book of Acts. In the case of the requirements for bishops, the Church decided that given its circumstances, celibate bishops were edifying. I could see where the Church might decide that married bishops might once again be appropriate and I think the Church has the authority to reinstitute the practice if it decided to do so. The theology of the Church is not changed by such decisions and that is why we have bishops in the first place, to make such decisions in a discerning and concilliar fashion. However, this would have to be something approved and instituted by the whole Church, not simply one church here and another over there. But even that relatively "minor" reinstitution would be a very big thing to do.

The ordination of women is another matter altogether. This would be a definite change that has never been done before. Could it be done without changing our theology? Many say no, with sound reasoning behind it. Even if one or two jurisdictions attempted it, they would simply be cut off from the other churches. Getting the whole church to accept it would take centuries at the very least, even if it was the "right" thing to do. Look how long we have been going on over which calendar to use!

We answer to a highter Authority than the whims of society and culture. If the Holy Spirit wants it to happen, it will happen, regardless of what we think. I do not claim to have any special access to the Holy Spirit, but based on discussions and readings in Orthodox circles I have come across, I don't think the ordination of women is high on the priority list.

In short, the bishops, acting in concert with the people--that is, acting as THE CHURCH--can set or change policy, but not theology. Knowing the difference is part of that thing called discernment, not simple expediency.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Paul Cowan]

1 Tim Ch 3, vs1-6
1 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher, 3 Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity. 5 But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?

"Of one wife"... The meaning is not that every bishop should have a wife (for St. Paul himself had none), but that no one should be admitted to the holy orders of bishop, priest, or deacon, who had been married more than once.

Is this literally only married once? or is this saying not to be a polygimist? Or that he cannot remarry after his wife's death?

[Father David Moser]

Is this literally only married once? or is this saying not to be a polygimist? Or that he cannot remarry after his wife's death?

The tradition of the Church is that a man who wishes to be ordained can only have been married one time to one woman. After his ordination, should his wife divorce him or die, he cannot remarry and remain a priest (or deacon). There are different applications of this when we are considering converts with marriages which were contracted and ended outside the Church, however the baseline is still one marriage to one woman in one lifetime.

Fr David Moser

[Herman Blaydoe]

Is this literally only married once? or is this saying not to be a polygimist? Or that he cannot remarry after his wife's death?

Side note, but this points out the value of the continuing Church and the preservation of the Apostolic Witness vice trying to "reconstruct" things millennia after the fact.

We know the real meaning because this is how the Church has always taught it. Any other interpretation would be inconsistent, even if it can be semantically derived. This is why "proof-texting" is a bad idea.

[Paul Cowan]

We know the real meaning because this is how the Church has always taught it. Any other interpretation would be inconsistent, even if it can be semantically derived. This is why "proof-texting" is a bad idea.

Not my intent. I was only clarifying.

[Deanna Leonti]

1 Tim Ch.2 vs11-15
11 Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed; then Eve. 14 And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression. 15 Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

could someone explain what verse 15 means in relation to the vs.11-14?

baffled again,

Deanna

[Antonios]

Dear Deanna,

Christos Anesti!

I take the verse to mean that love and salvation is a mystery, which involves creating and sharing so that love is someway made perfect and complete.

As Eve came from Adam, so a child is born of a women. Both actions involving the making complete of love through the sharing in a trinitarian way the joys of creation. Where Eve was the weaker and more vulnerable catalyst in the fall, the onus is now on her female descendants to restore (by the grace of God) righteousness and obedience through the generation of sons and daughters which enter this world. What a tremendous responsibility, to create a child of God to walk in the way of the Lord! What a difficult task! But when done 'in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety', and in Christ-like self sacrifice, it is a live-giving task which nurtures her child's spirit, and saves her own as well.

In Christ,
Antonios

[Mina Mounir]

well , Actually I was talking about ordination of women only to give an example , but any way , when some one asks why women are not ordained as bishops? the answers directly is : this is against the scripture.

and the question is , since we have the authority to say that the bishop must not be married , do we have the same authority to say the woman can be ordained?

since the problem of woman ordination is only the pauline verses... can be this a solution?

it is the same for many other points

[Herman Blaydoe]

well , Actually I was talking about ordination of women only to give an example , but any way , when some one asks why women are not ordained as bishops? the answers directly is : this is against the scripture.

and the question is , since we have the authority to say that the bishop must not be married , do we have the same authority to say the woman can be ordained?

since the problem of woman ordination is only the pauline verses... can be this a solution?

it is the same for many other points

I would reiterate that the bishops have the authority to institute or change whatever is necessary to maintain good order and discipline in the Church, but do NOT have the authority to contradict Holy Scripture. They also have the responsibility to determine what does or does not contradict Holy Scripture as guided by the Holy Spirit in concilliarity with the whole Church, past and present.

Does that make any sense?

Herman

[Deanna Leonti]

1 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher, 3 Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity. 5 But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?


since we can now say the bishop must not be married , can we today ( with the same authority ) say the bishop can be a woman ?

[QUOTE=Herman Blaydoe;64764]I would reiterate that the bishops have the authority to institute or change whatever is necessary to maintain good order and discipline in the Church, but do NOT have the authority to contradict Holy Scripture. They also have the responsibility to determine what does or does not contradict Holy Scripture as guided by the Holy Spirit in concilliarity with the whole Church, past and present.


Does that make any sense?

not really
I see what you are saying, but also see what Mina is saying.
What I think she is trying to say is that in scripture (1Tim) it says that the bishop can have a wife, however the church now has changed that by her own authority, if that may be the case than why can't the church
change the authority on other things in scripture as in the ordination of women (in which I myself have no desire, but does pose as a good question)

I have read where women in church history were ordained.

also if the Pope wanted to could he bring back women ordination?
(in other words would that be apart of his power as a Pope)

lets say if three or more Bishops agreed on it would it change then?

please excuse the terms that I use, I do not know the correct terms to use.

Thank You,

Deanna

[Olga]

I have read where women in church history were ordained.

Could you please provide examples of this?

[Deanna Leonti]

Could you please provide examples of this?

An indisputable case occurred in the life-time of many readers. Validly ordained Bishop, Felix Davidek (1921 - 1988) ordained several women in the year 1970 behind the iron curtain during the days of communism for the purpose of providing ministry to Catholic women in prisons.

This was done prior to the Vatican statements such as Inter Insignores in 1976 or Ordinatio Sacerdotalis in 1994.

Davidek did not act in disobedience, and was unable to communicate openly with the Vatican to ask permission. Necessity lead him to the decision that it was the right thing to do.

Ludmila Javorova is one of the women he ordained, and though she has agreed to cease acting as a priests, she maintains to this day that her ordination was valid.

Nor is this an isolated case in history. Pope Gelasius wrote concerning his knowledge that Italian Bishops were ordaining women in the late fifth century. He ordered them to stop, but did not make any declaration that the ordination that had already taken place were invalid. Nor did he write in any way that can be considered a universally binding decree for all time.

Historians are uncovering evidence that women were likely ordained to ministerial priesthood for at least four centuries in the early church.
In what possible way could excluding women from ministerial priesthood be sinful?

My first reference point would be Guadium et Spes no. 29 which says it is "contrary to God's will" to deny a woman the right to "embrace a state of life". Optatam Totius no. 19 refers to ministerial priesthood as a "state of life".

GS 29 clearly acknowledges that people do not have automatic rights to certain states of life. GS 29 indicates that differences in talents and abilities can and should be considered. However, it is wrong to deny someone the right to a state of life based on gender alone.

Furthermore, Scripture refers to a woman named Junia as an Apostle in Romans 16:7, and bishops derive their authority from Apostolic succession.

Likewise, Phoebe is a deacon in Romans 16:1-2, and the word presbyteress is used in the Greek of 1 Tim 5:1-2. Compared to the same chapter, verse 17, the context implies an ordained ministry.

The Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon, canon 15, provides instruction for the ordination of women to deaconate, and Chapter II of the 23rd Session of the Ecumenical Council of Trent specifies that deaconate and all lower orders (including alter servers) is directed to ministerial priesthood. We even have alter girls today!

The Holy Spirit seems to be saying we can ordain women because we already have ordained them, or put them in positions that are directed to ordained ministry.

Third, even if we reject all historical evidence that women have been ordained, Jesus and the early Apostles never ordained a non-Jew.

liberalcatholic.blogspot.com/

[Father David Moser]

since we can now say the bishop must not be married , can we today ( with the same authority ) say the bishop can be a woman ?



Actually, the Church does not say that a bishop must not be married. The tradition of the Orthodox Church is to choose bishops from the ranks of monastics. Married men have become monks for many reasons - for example: some were widowed and become monks after the death of the spouse; other men, in consultation and in concert with their wives both entered monastic life. There are plenty of examples of men who were married and later entered monastic life and were ordained.

Fr David Moser

[Deanna Leonti]

Actually, the Church does not say that a bishop must not be married. The tradition of the Orthodox Church is to choose bishops from the ranks of monastics. Married men have become monks for many reasons - for example: some were widowed and become monks after the death of the spouse; other men, in consultation and in concert with their wives both entered monastic life. There are plenty of examples of men who were married and later entered monastic life and were ordained.

Fr David Moser


Originally Posted by Mina Mounir http://www.monachos.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=64694#post64694)
Peace ,
when we read the New Testament, we find commandments by St.Paul for example , these commandments are like the criteria or a description for the bishop, also that the woman must cover her head in the church. in Rom.13 the relationship between the Christian and the Political authorities.

could we say that such commandments are just personal commandments by st.Paul to certain persons in certain circumstances? consequnetly, can we change it today?

for example :a bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach(1 Ti 3 : 2 )

since we can now say the bishop must not be married , can we today ( with the same authority ) say the bishop can be a woman ?

thanks
XC Anesti


I didn't originally quote this, Mina did, and I used it in my previous post.

Deanna

[Paul Cowan]

Could you please provide examples of this?

St. Phoebe (http://www.antiochian.org/node/16699)
Orthodoxwiki (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Deaconess)
An unsure source (http://dlibrary.acu.edu.au/research/theology/ejournal/aejt_4/Nicolaides.htm).

[Olga]

An indisputable case occurred in the life-time of many readers. Validly ordained Bishop, Felix Davidek (1921 - 1988) ordained several women in the year 1970 behind the iron curtain during the days of communism for the purpose of providing ministry to Catholic women in prisons.

This was done prior to the Vatican statements such as Inter Insignores in 1976 or Ordinatio Sacerdotalis in 1994.

Davidek did not act in disobedience, and was unable to communicate openly with the Vatican to ask permission. Necessity lead him to the decision that it was the right thing to do.

This may have occurred within the Roman Catholic church, but I fail to see its relevance to Orthodox practice. Even for the RC church, it is an irregularity, and contrary to its longstanding tradition and practice.

As for deaconesses, may I suggest a search of this forum's threads on female deacons or deaconesses. The duties of the deaconesses of the early church bear little or no resemblance to the liturgical duties of the male diaconate.


Furthermore, Scripture refers to a woman named Junia as an Apostle in Romans 16:7,

There were other women who were regarded as "equals to the apostles", most notably St Mary Magdalene. In fact, she is often referred to "the Apostle to the Apostles", as it was she who first proclaimed the news of the risen Christ to the Apostles, including Peter. This status, however, does not confer the right to be ordained to priestly rank in the Orthodox tradition.


and the word presbyteress is used in the Greek of 1 Tim 5:1-2.

It is worth looking at 1 Tim. 5:12 in its entirety:


1 Do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father, younger men as brothers, 2 older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, with all purity. (NKJV)

The Greek word presvytera simply means older woman. This word is used to this day as a courtesy title for a Greek priest's wife (much like the term matushka for the wife of a Slavic priest). As with deaconesses, the feminine forms of certain words does not automatically confer the right or authority for a woman to be ordained. It is the Holy Tradition (which includes Scripture) of the Orthodox Church which determines whether a woman can be ordained.

[Mina Mounir]

thanks Deanna

I see what you are saying, but also see what Mina is saying.
What I think she is trying to say is that in scripture (1Tim) it says that the bishop can have a wife, however the church now has changed that by her own authority, if that may be the case than why can't the church
change the authority on other things in scripture as in the ordination of women (in which I myself have no desire, but does pose as a good question)

at last ,someone understood exactly what I was asking about!
PS. I'm a male

lets say if three or more Bishops agreed on it would it change then?
that's exactly my question ... that's why i didn't comment because no one understood what I wanted to say

[Herman Blaydoe]

lets say if three or more Bishops agreed on it would it change then?
thanks Deanna

at last ,someone understood exactly what I was asking about!
PS. I'm a male

that's exactly my question ... that's why i didn't comment because no one understood what I wanted to say

If that is what you are trying to say, then the answer is NO. It takes more than three bishops to set policy for the entire Church. It takes the entire Church. But I think we are getting way off-topic here, and there are already several extensive threads on these topics elsewhere in the forum.

Herman

[Deanna Leonti]

Mina,
Wow! I am glad I got something right :)
you are welcome.


Herman,

ok, sorry and thank you


Peace,

Deanna