Can the devil heal?

[Patrick Lee]

A friend and I were discussing a charismatic movement, and the fact that there are apparent physical healings associated with it. If some of the healings are real (a bit of an assumption), the question comes as to the source. Its hard to imagine the Holy Spirit causing such healings given the confusion, chaos, and questionable things that also occur in this context. This would lead to two options. Either all of the healings are fake, or that the Devil is able to effect physical healing.

Thoughts? Something pertinent from the Fathers?

[Andreas Moran]

I would say the devil (we do not accord him the dignity of a capital 'D'), being, as Christ told us, a 'murderer' and a 'liar and the father of lies'(John 8:44) cannot heal.

[Effie Ganatsios]

http://www.antiochian.org/morelli/the-ethos-of-orthodox-christian-healing

The above site is a good one for a general article on the Orthodox Church and healing.

On whether the devil can heal :

Matthew 24
24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house."

I believe that the same applies to the question of whether the devil can heal.

Sickness and death originated with the devil, so it is logical to assume that he cannot heal, except as a method of tricking people into believing in him and not in God. He is the father of lies as Andreas quoted. He will do anything and everything to those who believe in good and in God.

[Alice]

The not so holy-- if not downright demonic-- Rasputin's healing of the child, (the now holy passion bearer) Tsarevich Alexei of Russia, comes to mind...If it were not for these 'healings', the poor Tsarina would not have been so blinded and dependent on him and his visits.

Alice

[Patrick Lee]

Sickness and death originated with the devil, so it is logical to assume that he cannot heal, except as a method of tricking people into believing in him and not in God. He is the father of lies as Andreas quoted. He will do anything and everything to those who believe in good and in God.

I think this is where our thoughts were leading. What we've seen is an old friend, who is not Orthodox, but very well versed in Orthodoxy leading his flock into the Lakeland healing movement. He seems "tricked" (that is precisely the word I would use, too) into buying the healings even though there is so much unholy about that movement.

[Patrick Lee]

I should have read what Blessed Seraphim Rose had to say (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frseraphim_charismatics.aspx):


The question we shall attempt to answer in these pages is: what or who is this spirit? As Orthodox Christians we know that it is not only God Who works miracles; the devil has his own "miracles," and in fact he can and does imitate virtually every genuine miracle of God. We shall therefore attempt in these pages to be careful to "try the spirits, whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1). We shall begin with a brief historical background, since no one can deny that the "charismatic revival" has come to the Orthodox world from the Protestant and Catholic denominations, which in turn received it from the Pentecostal sects.

[Patrick Lee]

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:13-14

And, of course, there other passages alluding to this.

[Paul Cowan]

Revelation 16:13-14

And, of course, there other passages alluding to this.

Yes, but doing miracles is not the same necessarily as healing. Who was the sorcerer that was walking up to God only to be brought down by Peter? That was a miracle at least to those seeing it.

Satan cannot do good. Healing is good. He may try to imitate God, but like those quacks that pretend to pull black gunk out of your body with just their hands are also imitating what they do not understand.

Paul

[Mary]

I've been to 'healing services' in India. The first time I was quite impressed with all the fervent prayer and singing and I felt ashamed of myself for my mediocre faith. Then, I started to observe things a bit more closely and realized that it was mostly women who went to such meetings, and the ones who were most 'religious' were also the least kind. So, very quickly, all my skeptical antennaes were up, and I noticed a lot of other things too.

At that time, I never believed the healings were real, I was sure they were staged, so more unthinking people could be hypnotised. But I think they might've been - to a degree. If a problem is due to some demonic oppression, the demons could ease up on you a little bit and give you some rest, giving the appearance that you've been healed, only, you're now addicted to whatever 'healed' you, and you give your life to it, and they have you in their grip, a lot stronger than before.

I think it would be wrong to say that all sicknesses are due to demonic activity in our lives. If they were, no medicine would work.

At least, that's what I deduce by my frail logic.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Paul Cowan]

God does not send illnesses. He may allow them. Other than Job, I doubt illnesses come from satan either. We have enough sin in our lives from the fall to produce enough death and decay in our members to keep ourselves quite sick without good or bad spiritual help.

Yes, we get sick sometimes from demonic suggestions by participating in sin. But we mostly get sick due to the corrupted nature of ourselves and the planet. Don't give satan more credit than he is due. Which is little to none. Praise God in your illness and the devil wil flee. You may still have to suffer the illness, but hopefully with less demonic suggestion.

IMO
Paul

[Patrick Lee]

Yes, but doing miracles is not the same necessarily as healing. Who was the sorcerer that was walking up to God only to be brought down by Peter? That was a miracle at least to those seeing it.

Satan cannot do good. Healing is good. He may try to imitate God, but like those quacks that pretend to pull black gunk out of your body with just their hands are also imitating what they do not understand.

Paul

I may be quite wrong on this one, but I don't think healing is always necessarily good. Perhaps better put is not in the best interest of the person in question. Paul and his thorn in the flesh comes to mind. Healing in the context of one of these charismatic services is, IMO, rather destructive. I know of many people who have witnessed a healing, been slain in the spirit, spoken in tongues, etc., in one of these services and is very much convinced that the ministry in question has been anointed by God, when in fact, it is no such thing.

[Paul Cowan]

I may be quite wrong on this one, but I don't think healing is always necessarily good. Perhaps better put is not in the best interest of the person in question. Paul and his thorn in the flesh comes to mind. Healing in the context of one of these charismatic services is, IMO, rather destructive. I know of many people who have witnessed a healing, been slain in the spirit, spoken in tongues, etc., in one of these services and is very much convinced that the ministry in question has been anointed by God, when in fact, it is no such thing.

I did not say God heals everyone or that the devil heals. God knows what is needed for our salvation. We do not. If our need identified by Him is to not be healed in order for our salvation, God's will be done.

Charismatic services are shams. If all these healings really took place, where are the people now? Why are they not on the TV extolling the healing power of God everyday? The truth is they were not healed. Or those that "were" were planted in the audience.

My wife watched a healing service on tv once by a well known "faith healer". The little girl was blind until he "healed" her. The first thing she did was look ito a mirror and toss her hair back as if she had been doing it for years. Which of course she had been since she was not really blind in the first place. A blind person knows of common grooming techniques, but what this girl did was a vanity twirl of the head. I am sure you can picture the movement.

I have also been to a charismatic service run out of a hotel lobby. (Just to check it out). Before service started, there were women walking around the perimter of the chairs and with a shrill high voice doing something like lalalalalalalalalalalalala for nearly 20 minutes. Wer figured it was their way of clearing the room of evil spirits. In this case God's spirit. It was all quite creepy. The service was basically about putting you money into these premarked envelopes labeles $100-$5000 with the message what you gave to them, God would give back to you two fold. People actually put money in there.

Test the spirits

Paul

I think we are saying the same thing here.

[Patrick Lee]

I think we are saying the same thing here.

I think we are. I was just watching a video on Godtube with a little boy with Cerebral Palsy, supposedly healed enough to walk without his walker. Of course, he was being supported by his mom, so it was hardly a healing. I was so incensed that they would use a little boy like that.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Our minds are capable of doing anything we want. And during these revival meetings where people are healed, couldn't their minds have given them the strength to stand or whatever else seemed like a miracle. What happened afterwards though?

Do not underestimate the power of faith. Jesus has told us that faith heals, faith moves mountains. Doctors now tell us that people who have faith (no matter their religion) heal better and quicker after operations, etc.

I have also seen people walk on burning coals in north-east Greece. Before walking on these coals, they have spent the previous night singing to themselves with icons in their hands and dancing in a slow, steady, trancelike step. They do not burn their feet when they eventually walk across the coals. A lot of countries, non-christian, have also accomplished this. Some by putting themselves in a trance like state, and some by either some sort of alcohol or natural drugs.

See a reference to this on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-walking

Paul mentioned in his message that the women in his example of faith healing were using song to "set the stage" just before the service. They were also walking around as they were singing. Just as those in north east Greece do. But these are not "miracles" from God. There are people in the world who can stop their heart rate to a point where others would be dead. They then revive themselves. Again, this is not a miracle but the power of the mind.

Our minds are wonderful instruments, capable of doing great things, but we still know next to nothing about them.

God's will be done in our lives. He will always do what is best for us. We need to pray and constantly strive to be worthy to be called followers of Christ.

Effie

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Effie wrote


Our minds are capable of doing anything we want. And during these revival meetings where people are healed, couldn't their minds have given them the strength to stand or whatever else seemed like a miracle. What happened afterwards though?

I think that Effie is on to something here.

In reading through this discussion I am not easy with the idea that healing=good and not healing=bad; therefore all of the healing seen at such displays is not really healing.

Instead I would suggest that we keep in mind the Church's understanding of sickness- witnessed to by the Fathers and suggested in the NT- which is that although sickness is clearly a result of the Fall, in Christ it is not always meant to be healed in the immediate physical sense.

Even when such healing occurs, from the context of the standard Church prayers for such sickness, it seems clear that we focus on the time when we are suffering from the sickness. In other words although physical healing is at times given by God the stress is actually on how we bear that sickness which we understand God has allowed. It may be healed- it may not be healed; but the point is that we are to bear it with patience and even thankfulness. It is this latter which begins to touch true healing.

Where Effie's point is on to something important I think is that such displays of healing we are discussing here go in the exact opposite direction. Mainly they hinge on the necessity to be healed physically.

This in turn avoids the need for patience and thankfulness towards God for what He allows in our lives. The final point in this can only be that true healing itself- ie healing from sin & death- is avoided mainly because humility in regards to what God allows is completely missing. Here I think the demonic element really has potential to work for here a great door of attractive delusion- ie healing based on sensual results- is opened.

It could be then that in such displays of healing that what is at work is a strong psychological/emotional element which as they say 'can work miracles'. It could be that such healings at times are real at least in an immediate physical sense.

However the point here is that healing in Christ is completely different.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Rick H.]

NAS Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons." 25 And knowing their thoughts He said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself shall not stand. 26 "And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? 27 "And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Consequently they shall be your judges. 28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 "Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come.



With the above passage of Scripture in mind, I think we (as individuals) should be very reluctant to pronounce judgement on the source /causality of healings claimed within the charismatic movement or other reported healings elsewhere. For that matter what is the point, why would we do this? We need to be very careful with broad sweeping statements. Where is the benefit for the one who sits in the seat of judgment in this way?

As Mr. Lee has written of the charismatic movement in the first post:




A friend and I were discussing a charismatic movement, and the fact that there are apparent physical healings associated with it. If some of the healings are real (a bit of an assumption), the question comes as to the source. Its hard to imagine the Holy Spirit causing such healings given the confusion, chaos, and questionable things that also occur in this context. This would lead to two options. Either all of the healings are fake, or that the Devil is able to effect physical healing.



It occurs to me that the above passage from Matthew is followed up by an exhortation about fruit and trees. The one's who charged Jesus with healing by the devil, the ruler of demons considered the Christ and his followers to be bearing bad fruit given the ramifications of His Gospel, and the confusion and chaos that surrounded the Jesus movement of His day.

Obviously, the contributors here are not members of Benny Hinn's church, we are not followers of his teachings . . . however, lest one of us is a prophet, or the son/daughter of a prophet, in light of the teaching of Jesus on the those who condemn the work of the Holy Spirit, how can we not tread very lightly when it comes to such considerations and determinations?

In Christ,
Rick

[Effie Ganatsios]

Rick wrote : "however, lest one of us is a prophet, or the son/daughter of a prophet, in light of the teaching of Jesus on the those who condemn the work of the Holy Spirit, how can we not tread very lightly when it comes to such considerations and determinations?

In Christ,
Rick"


God is not the exclusive property of the Orthodox, nor is Jesus nor is the bible.

We have chosen the path of Orthodoxy because we believe that it is the true path.

Other Christians have chosen other paths. Our God is the same God.

Our question was : can the devil heal?

I quoted the following passage from Matthew 12 in my first post :

"24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you."

I quoted the above in support of my contention that the devil cannot heal because illness and death were caused by him. And he cannot go against himself as Jesus clearly tells us.

"The Fall of Man

To understand healing we must first understand sin, illness, death and love, a task that brings us back to Genesis. Genesis reveals that God created the world as good. He set mankind as the crown of His creation. Genesis describes the creation of man in this way:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) ... God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them" (Genesis 1:27) ... the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (Genesis 2:7).

Mankind is meant for paradise, and paradise is understood as life in and with God that lasts for all eternity. Who then, caused the rupture that introduced sin, illness and death into the world? The answer is the evil one, Satan, and his cohorts. Satan is the destroyer of goodness and order, the liar who fatally rebelled against God and looks forward only to eternal judgment and condemnation. The scriptures tell us that the devil has "sinned from the beginning" (1 John 3:8). "

The above is from the link I posted in my first message.

[Deanna Leonti]

A friend and I were discussing a charismatic movement, and the fact that there are apparent physical healings associated with it. If some of the healings are real (a bit of an assumption), the question comes as to the source. Its hard to imagine the Holy Spirit causing such healings given the confusion, chaos, and questionable things that also occur in this context. This would lead to two options. Either all of the healings are fake, or that the Devil is able to effect physical healing.

Thoughts? Something pertinent from the Fathers?

I would "hate" to think that the devil would have such a blessed gift, as the gift of healing.

I would guess just the opposite, that the devil wouldn't like for healings to take place because it kind of goes against what the essence of his being is.

just a guess

Deanna

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I think that the devil can contribute to physical healing of a sort. Not directly but indirectly through working on a person's emotions and psychological state which has tremendous power. Doctors for example are aware of the power of the placebo affect which truly does heal.

The point however which needs more discussion is what should healing really mean for us?

First we must always start with the whole man who has been affected by sin and death and not just one aspect- ie the physical. Thus when Christ heals in the Gospel there is definitely a physical healing. But this is only a sign of the deeper spiritual healing. If the person had not been open to this inner change- ie. repentant and humble and open to Christ's message of regeneration of the whole man- then such outer healing would not have taken place. A good example of this is the woman with an issue of blood who is the only one healed even though Christ is surrounded by a crowd.

The second point is that healing in the absolute sense is not given to us yet- to suggest this is a form of chiliasm, of an expectation of the Kingdom before the time for its arrival has been fulfilled. Like all such premature expectations this is grounded in the temptation to focus on the material. This is because at this level 'success' in an immediate, flashy (and fleshly) sense is much more easy than the patience & uncertainty of what is needed for the whole man to be healed.

It is in this impatient focus on the material that I would suggest the evil one has the most room to play with us. Not as one who can work direct healings but as one who can encourage us to see & hope only materially. Once we have done this then the door to emotional states opens of itself. And within this space we open ourselves to an immense degree of manipulation that can produce 'miracles' & 'healings'.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Deanna Leonti]

I think that the devil can contribute to physical healing of a sort. Not directly but indirectly through working on a person's emotions and psychological state which has tremendous power. Doctors for example are aware of the power of the placebo affect which truly does heal.

The point however which needs more discussion is what should healing really mean for us?

First we must always start with the whole man who has been affected by sin and death and not just one aspect- ie the physical. Thus when Christ heals in the Gospel there is definitely a physical healing. But this is only a sign of the deeper spiritual healing. If the person had not been open to this inner change- ie. repentant and humble and open to Christ's message of regeneration of the whole man- then such outer healing would not have taken place. A good example of this is the woman with an issue of blood who is the only one healed even though Christ is surrounded by a crowd.

The second point is that healing in the absolute sense is not given to us yet- to suggest this is a form of chiliasm, of an expectation of the Kingdom before the time for its arrival has been fulfilled. Like all such premature expectations this is grounded in the temptation to focus on the material. This is because at this level 'success' in an immediate, flashy (and fleshly) sense is much more easy than the patience & uncertainty of what is needed for the whole man to be healed.

It is in this impatient focus on the material that I would suggest the evil one has the most room to play with us. Not as one who can work direct healings but as one who can encourage us to see & hope only materially. Once we have done this then the door to emotional states opens of itself. And within this space we open ourselves to an immense degree of manipulation that can produce 'miracles' & 'healings'.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

what does chiliasm mean?
what is meant by material?

can anyone physical ailments be the cause of sin?

is that what is meant by when Jesus cures the paralytic asking the pharisees what is better to say that your sins are forgiven or arise and walk?

Deanna

[Ken McRae]

I think this is where our thoughts were leading. What we've seen is an old friend, who is not Orthodox, but very well versed in Orthodoxy leading his flock into the Lakeland healing movement. He seems "tricked" (that is precisely the word I would use, too) into buying the healings even though there is so much unholy about that movement.

St. Gregory of Tours addresses this mystery in his brief account of St. Friardus the Recluse (http://books.google.ca/books?id=1ZtEwxKWTHMC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=saint+friardus+the+recluse&source=web&ots=64qqIKlkvP&sig=jaWqqhUhkSPqLcbW9_W46i5HeAQ&hl=en#PPA71,M1). This link, however, only provides a couple pages of St. Gregory's account, but I am unsure if and where the whole of it might be located online. Nevertheless, if you will read pages, 71-73, at the link provided, you will see near the end if the last page where St. Gregory begins to tell the story of Blessed Secundellus, the Orthodox deacon who was decieved by the appearance of satan to him, (disguised as the Lord Christ,) who instructed him to desert his island hermitage for the mainland, in order to embark on a ministry of healing the sick. This Blessed Secundellus did, without first consulting his co-labourer in Christ, St. Friardus; who later proved instrumental in Secundellus' conversion and return to his former isalnd paradise. Both saints renounced those healings as miracles performed not by God, but by the great deceiver of mankind.

Contrast this ancient account of 'counterfeit' healings with the above contemporary account of the 'Lakeland Healing Movement,' so-called. In the earlier instance, satan worked with the utmost subtlety, to deceive the Orthodox struggler. However, our own contemporary times have fallen upon such woeful blindness of soul that the masses, and even many of the Orthodox themselves, seem to be so easily duped by the most obvious of counterfeits. Today there are literally millions of professing Christians who believe that signs and wonders are the mark(s) of divine blessing and approval. This to me appears like the prelude to the great apostacy, that is foretold in Scripture as transpiring in the last days; and as setting the stage for the coming appearance of the great deceiver of the world. That such imposter movements, (like the 'Vineyard' and 'Lakeland Healing Movements,' for example,) are literally 'a dime-a-dozen' today must surely be viewed as "a sign of the times," and that it is later than we think!

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Deanna Leonti wrote:


what does chiliasm mean?


The word chiliasm is from the Greek for one thousand and refers to a 1000 year reign of Christ with the saints before His Second Coming. This is also referred to as millenarianism. The main scriptural basis for this is found in Rev. 20:1-7.

The main idea of chiliasm/millianarianism is of a material reign of peace preceding the final resolution of all things in Christ (ie the Second Coming).

This idea was more current in the early centuries of the Church. It was eventually condemned in its more material forms probably due to its connection to gnostic cults. However several early Fathers also held to some form of a thousand year reign before the Second Coming. In general though nowadays we tend to interpret the thousand years symbolically as the present intervening time of the Church on earth.

In more recent times chiliasm/millinarianism is also interpreted as the belief in a humanistic reign of peace brought about through political/social change. This was closer to the sense in which I meant it when I was speaking about healing.

In other words if we keep the idea of: healing=good; sickness=bad; like a strict equation then we fall into a kind of millinarianism where all trial allowed by God is removed. This can appear as if it was the doorway of the kingdom. But the strong possibility is of material phenomena (ie healing) that it is built on spiritual delusion. This last is the point of my post.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

It occurs to me that most people today think any healing must be good as Fr Raphael says. But I think of the several Orthodox I knew who had a terminal disease and called it a blessing. My late first wife called her cancer 'my friend'; it was to be the means of her rich entrance into the kingdom of heaven and lead her to her meeting with her Lord and God.

[Ken McRae]

St. Gregory of Tours addresses this mystery in his brief account of St. Friardus the Recluse (http://books.google.ca/books?id=1ZtEwxKWTHMC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=saint+friardus+the+recluse&source=web&ots=64qqIKlkvP&sig=jaWqqhUhkSPqLcbW9_W46i5HeAQ&hl=en#PPA71,M1). This link, however, only provides a couple pages of St. Gregory's account, but I am unsure if and where the whole of it might be located online. Nevertheless, if you will read pages, 71-73, at the link provided, you will see near the end if the last page where St. Gregory begins to tell the story of Blessed Secundellus, the Orthodox deacon who ...

Well, I just double-checked the above link to St. Gregory's work, on The Life of the Fathers, to see if it was working right, and it worked. But, there was a problem! It would not allow me to read page 73; which I thought was odd, as I had no problem reading it yesterday! So I did a quick google search for the name 'Secundellus,' and a link for Page 73 (http://books.google.ca/books?id=1ZtEwxKWTHMC&pg=PA73&dq=secundellus&sig=P5b1zcN8wAVLqrF7amLV4TYjO1g#PPA73,M1) came up.

However, in light of the fact that I cannot figure out how to view page 74, I have taken the time to type out the remainder of the account concerning Secundellus, so as to fill-out the story. However, since I do not own the same translation as posted on the Google website, I have used Fr. Seraphim Rose's translation:-

On St. Gregory's Account of the Conversion of Secundellus

" ... returning to the island after a long time, he went to find his companion and said to him vaingloriously, 'I left the island and worked many miracles among the people.' When Friardus, in fear, asked him what he meant, he related simply what he had done. The elder, terror-stricken at this tale, cried with sighs and tears, 'Woe to us! For as far as I understand, you have been deceived by yhe tempter. Go and repent, lest his tricks triumph over you.'

"Understanding these words and fearing he would perish, the deacon cast himself at the Saint's feet with tears, begging him to intercede for him with the Lord. 'Go, and let us together supplicate His almightiness for the salvation of your soul. For the Lord readily has mercy on those who confess their faults, since He has said by His prophet, I wish not the death of the sinner, but that he be converted and live (Ezek. 33:11).'

"But while they were praying, the tempter again appeared under the same form to the deacon Secundellus, saying to him, 'Have I not commanded you, because my sheep are sick and are without a shepherd, to go and visit them and heal them?' He answered, 'I have found in truth that you are the seducer, and I do not believe that you are God, Whose appearance you have falsely taken. Nevertheless, if you are Christ, show me your Cross which you have left, and I will believe in you.' And when he would not show it, the deacon made the sign of the Cross in his face, and he vanished in confusion. Yet he came back with a multitude of demons and struck the deacon with such force that he could scarcely recover. But finally the devil went away and reappeared no more. The deacon lived thereafter in great holiness and died when his time was fulfilled."

(Quoted the Platina Edition of Vita Patrum, as translated by Fr. Seraphim Rose, pp. 231-232)

[Fr. Alexander Resnikoff]

God does not send illnesses. He may allow them. Other than Job, I doubt illnesses come from satan either. We have enough sin in our lives from the fall to produce enough death and decay in our members to keep ourselves quite sick without good or bad spiritual help.
Paul

I'm not entirely sure that is correct. The attitude of modern man towards suffering or hardship as bad or from the devil; is not entirely compatible with Orthodox teaching. Often we are sent suffering for our correction, or in a very real way, as a blessing or reward from God.

For example: The voluntary suffering of the matryrs can be imitated by the pious in illness. Enduring a crippling distress, but voluntarily accepting this as Christ's Cross and walking towards our own personal Golgotha is salvific.

Having said that - spiritual trials should ALWAYS be undertaken with the blessing of a spiritual father. We should not reach above our limits or else we court a fall (i.e. by refusing medicine to intensify our pain during illness <as taken from the example above>... that we are somehow doing something "more" for God.) Instead of accepting what He has sent and considering it enough.

Simply said - please take your medicine both Heavenly and worldly with thanksgiving and patience.

In XC,
Fr. Alexander

[Paul Cowan]

Fr. Bless,

I do not question you but only ask for understanding. God does not send evil on the earth or to man. Yet he does send correction or salvific illnesses to test man? This seems contradictory. Or is it up to the man to determine his own mindset as to whether or not to believe God is sending an illness as a way of correction or chastisement.

Is illness not a result of mans' fall and a result of the sin in the world? How do we consolidate these two points? In my mind this makes God an evil God which I know He is not.

respectfully,

Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

Paul, my understanding of this is that God cannot send illness because he is a God of love. But when illness occurs, we pray to God for courage and help, and especially for the gift of patience. We can even regard the illness as an opportunity to come closer to God. And once we have relaxed and left the whole matter in God's hands, lo and behold, our bodies find new strength and start healing!

The only thing good about illness is the fact that when it is serious we are forced to confront ourselves to determine what kind of people we are and what we believe in. In this way, illness can be a good thing.

I believe we also need to accept the fact that we will die. Once we accept this fact in our hearts - our brain already knows this but refuses to accept it - we can then live to the glory of God and enjoy each day as it comes.

One of my favourite people is May Culley. I have read her book so many times. She was diagnosed as incurable at the age of 21. She went through many years of intense pain because of her spine. But through this pain she found God.

At one point she wrote to a friend and said that who knows what kind of rotten person she would be if her pain did not humble her every night.

She was not healed instantaneously but over a period of time and went on to become one of England's most successful healers. She was one of the first people to state that the mind and body of a person are linked so closely that what affects one, affects the other. She believed that anger, repressed feelings, etc. were at the root of most diseases. We now know that anxiety, stress, anger, and other negative emotions have an effect on our immune systems, so she was right.

Effie


Effie

Jesus healed people physically but his emphasis was always on their sins, their faith, and their souls.

[Michael Stickles]

A couple of thoughts on the various points that have popped up.

First, I would agree with Fr. Alexander that God can and does send suffering, including sickness, as a corrective discipline. From the Scriptures, we see this in 1 Corinthians 11:29-32 (emphasis added):


For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

I looked at St. John Chrysostom's 28th Homily on First Corinthians (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxix.html) to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting, and he describes it similarly, with the chastisement in this world being God's mercy, that those being chastised might not endure punishment in the next world. Far from being an evil, this discipline is an outpouring of His love.

Also, note the words of Christ in Revelation 2:20-22 (though I'm more hesitant here, not having an Orthodox commentary to check myself against) (again, emphasis added):


Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.

Now, you could argue that, in these cases, God technically does not send the sickness but merely allows it, but either way we see it as within His will for us, to effect our salvation. And frankly, I don't see much of a difference in practical terms. When I was a kid, my dad expected me to learn from the pain of my mistakes, whether the pain was inflicted by his hand directly or by the natural consequences of my actions (I was normally better off when he did it, since if he let me suffer natural consequences that usually meant they were far worse than a mere spanking).

As for whether satan can heal, I think that, regardless of the technically proper theological understanding, it is safest as a practical matter to assume that he can. The healing ability of the human mind has been shown to be phenomenal; can we assume satan to be unable to show a similar power? And, if he can author a sickness in someone, is it inconceivable that he might remove or hide the thing he himself brought? And even if a true healing did not take place, could he not delude those watching into believing that one had? In these cases, a person who believed that only God can heal would certainly be tempted to ascribe what was seen to God's power at work. But God warned the Israelites to be on guard for miraculous deceptions (Deut. 13:1-3a), in words which I think apply equally well to apparently miraculous healings:


If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer.

Even if it can be proved that a miraculous healing is from God, we should not automatically assume that it constitutes God's unconditional endorsement of the person through whom the healing was effected. God's power has flowed through the righteous (saints and prophets), the normally righteous but currently sinning (such as Moses when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it), the unrighteous (such as Saul when he prophesied before Samuel, or Balaam son of Beor), and even animals (Balaam's donkey, given the power of speech).

In Christ,
Mike

[Owen Jones]

As long as we do not say that the Holy Spirit only has the right to heal people in the confines of the institutional Orthodox Church. Jesus healed outside the confines of the current rabbinical jurisdiction, and that was what He was crucified for. This is the problem that arises when we define Orthodoxy in terms of jurisdictions only, or of a jurisdictional triumphalism. The lack of a healing Orthodoxy today is surely a cause of God's wrath. That there are phonies out there should be a reason for us to examine ourselves and make sure that we are not being phony in our faith and practice, not as an indictment of others.

There is a fundamental problem in Orthodoxy today in limiting healing only to the confessional. Our entire life's work as Orthodox is to be healed, and the idea that this is limited to the professional clergy and the confessional is a grotesque error. We are all called, not only to be healed, but to be healers.

[Nina]

God does not send evil on the earth or to man. Yet he does send correction or salvific illnesses to test man? This seems contradictory. Or is it up to the man to determine his own mindset as to whether or not to believe God is sending an illness as a way of correction or chastisement.

Is illness not a result of mans' fall and a result of the sin in the world? How do we consolidate these two points? In my mind this makes God an evil God which I know He is not.

respectfully,

Paul

On Trials and Temptations
Two kinds of grace are acquired when struggling according to God: one is the comfort of the Holy Spirit, Who fills the soul with joy, peace, delight, etc.; the other is called experience of temptations. This grace of experience is indelibly imprinted upon the soul, that is, does not leave a person because it is united with the heart which experienced the temptations. Whereas, the first, the grace of the Holy Spirit, sometimes comes and sometimes goes.

In the time of temptations, the second grace, experience, is more beneficial because it enlightens the soul how to pass through them. Since experience comes from temptations, it knows how to free the soul from danger whenever it comes.

So temptations, when we bear them with patience, bestow upon us the wisdom of temptations, and thus we become true philosophers. If we do not humble ourselves, instruction through temptations is not going to cease. Egotism creates temptations, but temptations in turn subdue the ego.

Therefore be humble, my child, if you want the demons who oppress you to be humbled. Throw yourself beneath all and say, "I am the worst person in the world and everything is my fault."

Selected from Counsels from the Holy Mountain from the Letters and Homilies of Elder Ephraim

"The holy man does not differ from the sinner in the fact of not being similarly tempted, but rather to the extent that the former is not overcome by some great onslaught, whereas the latter is defeated by even a minor temptation. And the brave endurance of some just man would not be worthy of praise if his victory were unaccompanied by temptation, for it is surely true that there can be no place for victory where the clash of a contest is missing. 'Blessed indeed is the man who endures temptation because after passing the test he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him' (Jms. 1:12).

According to Paul the apostle the virtue of a man is brought to perfection not amid idleness and pleasure but in infirmity. And then this saying: 'Today I have set you up into a fortified city, into a pillar of iron and a wall of bronze over all the land, over the leaders and kings of Judah, over its priests and over all the people of the earth. And they shall make war against you, and they shall not be victorious because I am with you, says the Lord, so that I may protect you' (Jer. 1:18-19)."

From St. John Cassian (Conferences; Paulist Press pg. 194):

On Trialsand Temptations

If a trial benefited the Apostle Paul---as he said: "A thorn in the flesh was given to me, an angel of Satan to torment me, lest I be exalted above measure" (2 Cor 12:7)---how much more will trials benefit us when we bear them patiently?

The Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel, the mouth of Christ, dead to the world, one in whom the Holy Trinity dwelt. And even though the trial hindered his apostolic preaching, and even though he entreated God so much to take away the trial, God, looking after the benefit of his soul, did not fulfill his prayer---although he besought Him three times---but he received the answer, "My grace is sufficient for you: for My strength is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor 12:9). My grace, He said to him, is sufficient for your consolation; you will have this trial in order to benefit by acquiring more humility.

Therefore, my children, bear with joy whatever trial God sends you, whether it be grief or ferocity of the passions, for God sends them to us for our benefit, in order that patience in all these things may be considered as ascesis which we are otherwise unable to do. So thank God; glorify Him with your mouth and heart, because the consolation of grace will come after the trial when we bear it with patience and thanksgiving.

Is there anyone who has entered paradise by a different path, a path without temptations, whom we can imitate? No. All the saints passed through fire and water, through various temptations and afflictions, and they glorified God with their patience and received crowns of eternal glory!

Do not lose courage in the struggle; our Christ is invisibly standing by, observing the struggle of each one of us. Therefore, struggle patiently; call out the name of our Jesus, so that it may be implanted within your hearts and so that you may become rich in the grace of God. Struggle to acquire a pure intellect, so that you may feel the grace of the Holy Resurrection.

We owe thousands of thanks to the sweetest Heavenly Father, Who providentially allows painful events to occur in our lives, so that we will not find ourselves in the other world incapable of showing that we endured something for the sake of His love.

Courage, my children; do not fall to your knees on your way uphill. We shall ascend little by little because we are weak. All will pass and be forgotten on the never-ending day of the glorious common resurrection.

Selected from Counsels from the Holy Mountain from the Letters and Homilies of Elder Ephraim

[Effie Ganatsios]

Nina, it is so good that you are back!

Thank you for the above post. Lots to meditate upon.

Effie

[Lourens]

Mr. Ken McRae wrote about:

...(the) Blessed Secundellus, the Orthodox deacon who was decieved by the appearance of satan to him, (disguised as the Lord Christ,) who instructed him to desert his island hermitage for the mainland, in order to embark on a ministry of healing the sick. This Blessed Secundellus did, without first consulting his co-labourer in Christ, St. Friardus; who later proved instrumental in Secundellus' conversion and return to his former isalnd paradise. Both saints renounced those healings as miracles performed not by God, but by the great deceiver of mankind.

Dear Mr. McRae,

While I have great appreciation for this story, I cannot see that it offers evidence of "demonic healings." The transgression here repented of was doing his own thing , without submitting to spiritual direction and blessing. I cannot imagine that upon renouncing "those healings as miracles performed not by God," those mainland souls were returned to their previous unhealthy state, (by God, of course, to restore the disrupted order; demolishing the healings inflicted by the devil).

"We are all called, not only to be healed, but to be healers." -- Owen Jones

This is surely the most powerful idea expressed in this thread.

It certainly demands that we should continually seek to understand what healing is and how to be effective co-workers of the (only)Holy One and Giver of Life Who says: "I am the Lord your (only)Healer."

Respectfully,

Learner

[Kusanagi]

A friend and I were discussing a charismatic movement, and the fact that there are apparent physical healings associated with it. If some of the healings are real (a bit of an assumption), the question comes as to the source. Its hard to imagine the Holy Spirit causing such healings given the confusion, chaos, and questionable things that also occur in this context. This would lead to two options. Either all of the healings are fake, or that the Devil is able to effect physical healing.

Thoughts? Something pertinent from the Fathers?


From what i understand is that the devil cannot heal. But they can perform what looks like a healing. Like for example of the fathers that discussed whether what St Simeon the Stylie is doing by standing on a pillar and performing miracles is Orthodox or not. They discussed that he healed people but they also said the devil can make illness look like a healing because the illness was going to heal of its own natural accord.

God allows people to become ill due to their sins as sin is the cause of illnesses. Also it is also one way of bring someone back to their senses and focus back to God. Also in the latter days, temptations and the ability to endure patiently is the way to get into heaven.

Basically
To try gold in fire and to become perfect so the man receives a better crown in the next life is why people even though they are seen as holy are allowed illnesses. This is mentioned many times in desert fathers and monks of Athos stories.

[Paul Cowan]

From what i understand is that the devil cannot heal. But they can perform what looks like a healing. Like for example of the fathers that discussed whether what St Simeon the Stylie is doing by standing on a pillar and performing miracles is Orthodox or not. .

Are you saying he was not Orthodox? but that he worked for the devil? Are you speaking just about him or all styiltes? I have a hard time accepting your statement.

[Kusanagi]

Are you saying he was not Orthodox? but that he worked for the devil? Are you speaking just about him or all styiltes? I have a hard time accepting your statement.

At that time when St Simeon was doing his asceticism, some fathers from a monastery were discussing if what he was doing is Orthodox or not. Some were discussing that he must be since he can perform miraculous healings. Others countered that the devil can heal someone if the person is going to heal naturally.

This is mentioned in his life.

[Robert Hegwood]

I think he was saying that those who observed him in his own time questioned where his abilities came from, they were not absolutely sure...and I imagine especially so since what he did was rather out in the open and a bit dramatic in its scope....living on top of a pillar, praying and preaching.

If I recall correctly the matter was settled for them by certain well respected and holy abbas calling for him to come down and settle in a more secluded life in a community (or something like that). When he heard them he started to climb down the ladder to offer his obedience. Once they saw that they knew the depth of his humility and rescined their instruction that he come down.