Christian dance

[Fabio Lins]

I remember someone making a comment on TV how Christianity developed distinctive forms of art in almost every field: literature, architecture, painting, theatre, etc., but there has never been a distinctive christian style of dance.

Any thoughts on this? Why is this so? Maybe there was at some point in the past but was forgotten? Maybe it can still be created? Or is it inherently impossible to have Christian dance like we have other Christian arts?

[Paul Cowan]

I am not sure what all took place at the wedding at Cana, but I do know what happened when Herodias's daughter danced for Herod.

In "Unseen Warfare" it talks about men not looking, touching or pressing of the flesh as this leads to the sin. Not to listen to fine music, taste good food, or pleasant smells as this leads to the sin. I cannot see how or where any kind of dance even Christian Dance (what does this look like anyway) could ever place itself within the realm of decency in the lives of christians. Hormones go bonkers especially in kids at dances. I don't see adults being any different.

Yes, King David danced with symbals in the street naked (or in his skivvies) to the scandalization of his wife. Dance to the Lord? This is beyond my understanding, but hey, it was King David. Who am I to question?

Paul

[Herman Blaydoe]

If a Christian dances, isn't this Christian dancing? There are many forms of dance. The Greeks love to dance in a distinctive manner and I believe they (for the most part) are Christian. So too, the Russians. I cannot think of any Orthodox culture that does not dance, come to think of it. Would this not be Christian dancing?

Much of what passes for dance these days is certainly not Christian, and I question if some of it is really dance, but that might just be me.

Herman the dancing Pooh

[Andreas Moran]

There's dancing and there's dancing. The Israelites danced before the golden calf (Exodus 32:19), and the household of the father danced at the return party for the prodigal son (Luke 15:25).

[Mary]

Some famous person, (who's name I forgot), responded to the question: "Can Christian's dance?" with:

"Some can and some can't."

PS: Sorry. I know it has nothing to do with the question. Couldn't help posting it.

[Fabio Lins]

These are all very interesting ideas. But what I had in mind was more on the formal view of art. Sure Christians do painting and build things. But one can look at an icon or at a church and say "Here is a piece of Christian art: there a painting, here architecture", which is slightly different from "the art made by Christians".

Maybe it is related to the fact that true Christian religiosity is always hesicastic and therefore this "absence" of dance is a kind of "quietness" of the body, a kind of "silence" in terms of body language?

[Rick H.]

Meditation through Movement

I think I might see what you mean. And, I still have yoga on the brain from the other thread, but I think you are making a move to something similar, in theory, to Kriya Yoga where there is a Beauty in this sort of performing art (if you will) that deals in the realm of something along the lines of what one might consider a mystical aesthetic. And, now I am reminded of the words of a late friend of mine named Okie, who said one day on a fishing trip: "Either you know or don't, and if you don't know . . . I can't tell you!"

This is very interesting Fabio. Thanks for bringing it up.

In Christ,
Rick

[Robert Hegwood]

I think the question is about "liturgical dance" not community dance. Apart from the distinctive ceremonial movements, gestures, and processions Orthodoxy to my knowledge has no liturgical dance forms. That said if you see certain Ethiopian Coptic services which in all other respects to my knowledge are like the Orthodox you will notice there is kind of slow back and forth movement between the halves of their choir at certain places of their worship. There are also other kinds of rhythmic bows, circular processions, and hand waving they use in singing certain hymns. This sort of thing is the closest I think you are going to get to distinctive "liturgical dance". One thing is for sure ballet/modern dance troupes waving flags to bombastic "anthems" is something I doubt you will ever find in an Orthodox service. For though it may well be dance, it definitely does not "serve" the celebration of the Liturgy. Here are some links to illustrate Ethiopian Coptic practice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM2WMQ8PN3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ3uPVJlFhM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4_4FtyS8NM

[Harshini Yuvati]

I remember someone making a comment on TV how Christianity developed distinctive forms of art in almost every field: literature, architecture, painting, theatre, etc., but there has never been a distinctive christian style of dance.

Any thoughts on this? Why is this so? Maybe there was at some point in the past but was forgotten? Maybe it can still be created? Or is it inherently impossible to have Christian dance like we have other Christian arts?


There are many references in the Bible to both men and women dancing before {and to } the Lord. :) . I dance in the church service { as do others :) }and I use flags in dance as well.

[Effie Ganatsios]

If a Christian dances, isn't this Christian dancing? There are many forms of dance. The Greeks love to dance in a distinctive manner and I believe they (for the most part) are Christian. So too, the Russians. I cannot think of any Orthodox culture that does not dance, come to think of it. Would this not be Christian dancing?

Much of what passes for dance these days is certainly not Christian, and I question if some of it is really dance, but that might just be me.

Herman the dancing Pooh

Dancing is one of the most basic ways we can express ourselves and our love of life. Some Greek dances are also expressions of intolerable sadness. They have been around for thousands of years and are an indivisible part of our personalities.

In the last 50 years, some forms of dancing have developed that have nothing to do with the above.

Some of the more recent dances that have come to us from South American countries, and others, are nothing more than a dancing form of copulation.

There is dancing and dancing.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

I have never seen any form of dancing or even something that comes close to it in the Orthodox religion.

The only thing that comes to mind is the wedding ceremony in which the bride, bridegroom and best man or lady, walk around the sacramental table three times (everything during the wedding ceremony is done three time symbolizing the Trinity) while the priest and choir chant "Isaiah Horeve" (Isaiah danced).

"What is important about the dance of Isaiah at weddings?


Towards the end of the Sacrament of Marriage, the couple is led in procession around the sacramental table on which is the Gospel – the Word of God. The circle is a symbol of eternity and reminds us that marriage is a lifetime commitment. Christ is at the centre of it. During the procession, three troparia are sung:

O Isaiah dance your joy, for the Virgin is with child; and shall bear a Son, Emmanuel both God and man! And Orient is His name, whom magnifying we call the Virgin blessed.

Holy Martyrs, who have fought the good fight and have received your crowns: entreat the Lord that He have mercy on our souls.

Glory to You, O Christ God, the Apostles’ boast, and the martyrs’ joy, whose preaching was the consubstantial Trinity.

These hymns remind us of the Scriptural qualities that ought to be present in marriage. The word martyria, in Greek, means to witness. The newly married couple is called to witness to the coming of the Kingdom of God, which came about through the birth of the Son of God from the Virgin, Mary. The joy that is celebrated through this uniting of man, woman and Christ is to parallel the joy that Isaiah had when he said, “I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my whole being shall exult in my God” (Isaiah 61:10).

[Robert Hegwood]

I think this qualifies as close. This is from the Ethiopian Copts, and I'm pretty such such things as are seen in the video have roots that predate the Chalcedonian schism...and since so far as I understand such things...pretty much all aspects of Coptic worship and practice is Orthodox, the only exception being the language we use for our respective Christologies.

The song is a hymn to the Holy Virgin I believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ3uPVJlFhM

[Maria Murray]

I cannot remember where I saw this, but it was mentioned that the 3-time procession around the font after baptism is called a kind of dance. I think it might be important to distinguish the movement that is orderly and prescribed versus the one that is self-willed. Just as icons are typically done in obedience to scripture and a particular tradition. But this is only my personal opinion.

[Andreas Moran]

There are many references in the Bible to both men and women dancing before {and to } the Lord. :) . I dance in the church service { as do others :) }and I use flags in dance as well.

Flags, eh? I haven't myself tried praying or worshipping by semaphore.

[Father David Moser]

I cannot remember where I saw this, but it was mentioned that the 3-time procession around the font after baptism is called a kind of dance.

It is called the "Dance of Isaiah" because of the tropar that is sung at that point.

Rejoice, O Isaiah! for a virgin was with child; and bore a Son, Immanuel: He is both God and man; and Orient is His name; magnifying Him, we call the virgin blessed.

Fr David Moser

[Kosta]

The Fathers shunned dance since it leads to temptation. The Church has never thought highly of dance. Theres the traditional folk dances found in Orthodox countries which are pleasing and other forms that have artisitic value when performed by specialized professionals, but rarely danced by the common man or woman such as ballet, .

But all other forms of dance are carnal, they evolved as nothing more than mating rituals. Mating rituals which can even be observed in the animal kingdom. Whether belly dance or zembekiko, or these latin american dances they are meant to excite the passions and are sinful. Worship is not meant to elevate ones pulse and adrenaline and passion especially through the provacative movements of body parts.

[Michael Stickles]

I'd be wary of sweeping generalizations. Folk dances exist in many countries besides Orthodox ones. And there are other dances I've seen - in person - which do not fit into the 3-way categorization of "folk dance - specialized professional - carnal/mating ritual".

That said, I'd agree with Robert - the videos he linked show the closest I've seen to anything I'd call "Christian dance" (in a literal rather than metaphorical sense) as opposed to just "Christians dancing".

In Christ,
Michael

[Ms Palmer]

I am sorry for entering the discussion one year later, I have just joint your site and because I have been involved for many years in the so-called 4Th Way school I do the sacred movements or dances as presented to the west by Mr Gurdjieff. He observed them in monasteries and learnt the principal ideas behind them..like to de-program our mechanical reactions...
extremely difficult to perform.....only with complete concentration ....of course I cannot say they are of Christian origin but the system is called esoteric Christianity and students asked Mr G. if Jesus Christ performed them. His typical answer was "I don't know I wasn't there" but on some occasions he gave thoughts to ponder about...
There are few amazing films in the archives of G. Foundation, performed by students personally trained by Mr. G and Madame de Salzmann unfortunately inaccessible to the public, but to get an idea, I would certainly recommend the film "Meetings with Remarkable Men" by Peter Brook...at the end you would see 3 or 4 of them...it is an experience of a higher order and I deeply regret there is so little known about them in public....more accessible is the eurhythmics system of Dalcroze, applied also by Steiner.... but that's different...

please forgive me I am sincerely interested in the orthodox side of Christianity, I just wanted to point out that there are dances of higher origins, having nothing to do with carnal forces...


Dagmar

I remember someone making a comment on TV how Christianity developed distinctive forms of art in almost every field: literature, architecture, painting, theatre, etc., but there has never been a distinctive christian style of dance.

Any thoughts on this? Why is this so? Maybe there was at some point in the past but was forgotten? Maybe it can still be created? Or is it inherently impossible to have Christian dance like we have other Christian arts?

[Herman Blaydoe]

I am sorry for entering the discussion one year later, I have just joint your site and because I have been involved for many years in the so-called 4Th Way school I do the sacred movements or dances as presented to the west by Mr Gurdjieff. He observed them in monasteries and learnt the principal ideas behind them..like to de-program our mechanical reactions...
extremely difficult to perform.....only with complete concentration ....of course I cannot say they are of Christian origin but the system is called esoteric Christianity and students asked Mr G. if Jesus Christ performed them. His typical answer was "I don't know I wasn't there" but on some occasions he gave thoughts to ponder about...
There are few amazing films in the archives of G. Foundation, performed by students personally trained by Mr. G and Madame de Salzmann unfortunately inaccessible to the public, but to get an idea, I would certainly recommend the film "Meetings with Remarkable Men" by Peter Brook...at the end you would see 3 or 4 of them...it is an experience of a higher order and I deeply regret there is so little known about them in public....more accessible is the eurhythmics system of Dalcroze, applied also by Steiner.... but that's different...

please forgive me I am sincerely interested in the orthodox side of Christianity, I just wanted to point out that there are dances of higher origins, having nothing to do with carnal forces...


Dagmar

King David danced, practically (if not totally--the scriptural reference is not entirely clear) naked in the streets for joy that the Ark was being brought into Jerusalem. However, there is no scriptural reference that I am aware of that talks of dancing as a part of temple or other formal worship, and I have not read anything to lead me to believe that dancing in Scripture led to or was in pursuit of a "higher" spiritual state.

There are many ways to "alter" spiritual consciousness, through breathing, concentration, physical exertion (this would include dance and even sex), and drugs. We can go back and forth as to whether or not this leads to a "higher" or "lower" spiritual state however, and Scripture and the Fathers have certainly expressed some strong ideas on what constitutes "better" techniques and some that are certainly not recommended. Dancing does not seem to make the list either way in most of the Christian literature I am familiar with. And I am pretty sure the monasteries mentioned above were NOT Orthodox monasteries. I am also relatively sure that this "fourth" way is not endorsed by the teachings of the Orthodox Church and therefore can only vew such teachings with extreme caution, caveat emptor indeed. Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh