The all-seeing eye / 'evil eye'

[John Litster]

Not to be getting too off topic, but speaking of the archangel Michael I own a small paper icon (Greek, I believe), depicting the archangel holding a shield upon which is a cross and an all-seeing Eye within a triangle. It could have been copied right off a greenback dollar, yet there it was. I've never seen anything like it - I know that the Eye image is associated with Freemasonry, which makes its appearance all the more unusual in Orthodox iconography. Anybody else seen this, or anything similar?

[Anthony Stokes]

Not to be getting too off topic, but speaking of the archangel Michael I own a small paper icon (Greek, I believe), depicting the archangel holding a shield upon which is a cross and an all-seeing Eye within a triangle. It could have been copied right off a greenback dollar, yet there it was. I've never seen anything like it - I know that the Eye image is associated with Freemasonry, which makes its appearance all the more unusual in Orthodox iconography. Anybody else seen this, or anything similar?


John,
I have seen it a few places before. I bought an icon from Greece once of Ss. Joachim and Anna that had a large "all-seeing" eye in the center on the top. I have also seen it in a church, to my dismay. At the Greek church in Tucson, AZ, there is a very large "all-seeing" eye on the wall of the choir loft. I couldn't help calling it the evil eye the whole time I was there, just because it seemed so out of place in a church.

Perhaps Olga can elaborate on the use of the all-seeing eye in iconography, although I have not seen it in Russian iconography before, but I could venture a guess that the practice of painting the "Ancient of Days" icons resembling God the Father could be a Russian equivalent to the "all-seeing" eye in Greek iconography. Just a guess though.

Subdeacon Anthony

[Michael Stickles]

Not to be getting too off topic, but speaking of the archangel Michael I own a small paper icon (Greek, I believe), depicting the archangel holding a shield upon which is a cross and an all-seeing Eye within a triangle. It could have been copied right off a greenback dollar, yet there it was. I've never seen anything like it - I know that the Eye image is associated with Freemasonry, which makes its appearance all the more unusual in Orthodox iconography. Anybody else seen this, or anything similar?

I haven't seen the "all-seeing eye" on an icon before, but I did note that, in an online page with excerpts (http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/truth_we_hold.htm) from "These Truths We Hold: The Holy Orthodox Church: Her Life and Teaching", the list of symbols at the bottom of the page includes this:


All-Seeing Eye: The All-Seeing Eye of God looks out from the triangle, which represents the Trinity. This reminds us that God always watches over us in love (Ps. 33:18).

There are no pictures on the page, and no mention of the eye in the excerpts, so I'm not sure what (if any) context it gets in the book.

I've only actually seen one symbol set which looks anything like what you describe, and it didn't include an eye. It had a cross over a triangle (point-up) containing a rising sun, and was one of symbols associated with the occult group Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. I don't recall it ever being on a shield or associated with any angel, though.

In Christ,
Mike

[Olga]

The symbol of the eye within a triangle predates Christianity, and possibly originated in ancient Egypt, as a variant on the Eye of Horus. It is true that this symbol is most associated with Freemasonry and similar groups and societies, which is hardly surprising, as many of their symbols are of Egyptian and Classical origin. The presence of the motif on US currency may well be explained by the tendency of the newly-independent American state to adopt Classical forms in its architecture and artistic expression, which, of course, coincided with the Arcadian movement in art, and the neoclassical Palladian/Georgian movement in architecture. Many more recently-appeared groups, such as the New Age, and neo-gnostics, have also adopted this motif.

There is an "icon" called The All-seeing Eye, which appeared in 16th-17thC Russia, which has no real resemblance to the eye in the triangle. I have not come across any equivalent images in other parts of the Orthodox world. Below is a brief description:
http://www.cirota.ru/forum/images/23/23394.jpeg
This attempts to portray a spiritual concept rather than a sacred person or event. The inscription says, The All-seeing Eye of God. The figure at the top is titled Lord Sabaoth. He is blessing and has an eight-pointed star inscribed in His halo which reminds us of the perfect eighth day of eternity. This representation of God is also called. The Ancient of Days. On His abdomen we may find the Holy Spirit represented as a dove in a halo, an element taken from the Theophany icon. They are flanked by two cherubim who are facing each other. Clockwise, we have an eagle holding a Gospel book and wearing a halo with the inscription Mark in front of him. Next is another cherub, marked cherubim. Then a winged-ox marked Luke and another cherub. Next is a winged-lion marked John, another cherub, and finally a winged-youth marked Matthew. This symbolic depiction of the four evangelists is found very often in Russian iconography. At the top centre of the circle we see the Mother of God with her hands raised in prayer. In her circle are three more cherubim. In the inner circle at the top we see two eyes and a nose, on the sides two more separated eyes, and at the bottom the end of a nose and a mouth. This configuration is the basis for the title of the icon. In the innermost circle surrounded by the eyes we have the Lord Jesus Christ Emmanuel.

Christ is the Sun of Righteousness who sees all, i.e. the four corners of the world. Like the sun which sees everything and enlightens the entire world with its light, Christ knows everything and enlightens the earth with the light of His teaching.

The original intent of the iconographer probably was to remind the viewer that we are all always in the sight of God. There is nothing hidden, secret or unknown to Him, but at the same time we are all also always in His care and protection as He is watching over us. Although the concept is edifying, the icon is confusing, typical of the complex didactic icons which were popular from the 15th to 18th centuries. We encounter a problem similar to the “personification” icons, such as Sophia The Divine Wisdom. Here the eyes, nose, and mouth in the inner circle substitute parts of God’s figurative or poetic “body” for the whole, which always results in something grotesque. For some reason God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are not represented in the innermost circle. We assume the original painter and his viewers were sincere Orthodox Christians who were influenced by ideas coming in from the west, and considered this theme to be something pious.

Unfortunately, as honourable and pious the intent may be, this type of image fails the canonicity test on many counts.

Returning to the "eye in the triangle" motif: I have seen many examples of this emblazoned on the shield of Archangel Michael, however, all such examples I have come across are images painted in a naturalistic style, therefore all are comparatively recent, i.e. mid-to-late 18th C at best, and the overwhelming majority 19th or 20thC. They are very plentiful in regions where there was a particularly heavy western influence, such as western Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Cyprus, and many of the Greek islands. In one church I attended often enough as a child, the eye motif was placed above the Royal Doors, surrounded by a strip of neon light. This triangular neon light lit up at the point in the Divine Liturgy at the opening of the Canon of Eucharist, at the words "Let us stand well, let us stand in awe ..." After an absence of setting foot in this church for some 25 years, I had cause to attend it for a memorial service a few years ago. Interestingly, and to my great relief, this motif and its accompanying neon border had been removed.

Is such a motif compatible with canonical Orthodox iconography? Given the very clear canonical prohibitions against the pictorial depiction of any of the Persons of the Trinity in symbolic form, other than those forms which have been expressly revealed to us, the answer, IMHO, is no.

[Effie Ganatsios]

John and Olga, I don't know if the following has anything to do with the eye that is in some churches, but I read it last night in one of my books and I thought it might be connected.

"In the original Greek version of the Gospels, there is a reference in both Matthew 6:22 and Luke 11:34.36 to an eye that is (h)aplos. This Greek word (h)aplos has been translated into English as single, pure, clear, or healthy. Once the eye in these passages is understood as being the heart, and the light is understood as being a spiritual light rather than a physical light, then the scriptural passage which says, "If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light (Matt. 6:22) can be understood as describing an interior, mystical experience."

Could it be that the eye depicted is a symbol for the heart?

That the pure in heart will see God? (Matt 5:8).?

I am only speculating of course. When I read the above passage I immediately thought of John's post.

Effie

[Paul Cowan]

Father Pat Reardon of All Saints in Chicago and Ancient Faith Radio has a homily on "The Simple Eye". (http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/allsaints/P48/)You may have to scroll through several pages perhaps 6 or 7 to find it. It also talks about the simple eye as envy. It is a well done homily.

Paul

[Anthony Stokes]

John and Olga, I don't know if the following has anything to do with the eye that is in some churches, but I read it last night in one of my books and I thought it might be connected.


Just for some perspective for everyone, here is the "all-seeing" eye that is in the Greek church in Tucson, AZ, that I mentioned.

http://www.monachos.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=105&pictureid=665

Subdeacon Anthony

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Just for some perspective for everyone, here is the "all-seeing" eye that is in the Greek church in Tucson, AZ, that I mentioned.

It appears to be sleeping.

[Deanna Leonti]

John and Olga, I don't know if the following has anything to do with the eye that is in some churches, but I read it last night in one of my books and I thought it might be connected.

"In the original Greek version of the Gospels, there is a reference in both Matthew 6:22 and Luke 11:34.36 to an eye that is (h)aplos. This Greek word (h)aplos has been translated into English as single, pure, clear, or healthy. Once the eye in these passages is understood as being the heart, and the light is understood as being a spiritual light rather than a physical light, then the scriptural passage which says, "If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light (Matt. 6:22) can be understood as describing an interior, mystical experience."

Could it be that the eye depicted is a symbol for the heart?

That the pure in heart will see God? (Matt 5:8).?

I am only speculating of course. When I read the above passage I immediately thought of John's post.

Effie

imo....Well if they did use that symbol years ago, why in todays day & age they just don't use a heart then?

I guess if one doesn't understand the underlying theme to it, it can appear to be a little abnormal & strange just to have one eye, no face etc.

Deanna

[Effie Ganatsios]

I haven't seen the "all-seeing eye" on an icon before, but I did note that, in an online page with excerpts (http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/truth_we_hold.htm) from "These Truths We Hold: The Holy Orthodox Church: Her Life and Teaching", the list of symbols at the bottom of the page includes this:



There are no pictures on the page, and no mention of the eye in the excerpts, so I'm not sure what (if any) context it gets in the book.

.

In Christ,
Mike

This definitely sounds like the most likely explanation. I also have seen this eye but I can't remember where or whether it was enclosed by a triangle.

All-Seeing Eye: The All-Seeing Eye of God looks out from the triangle, which represents the Trinity. This reminds us that God always watches over us in love (Ps. 33:18).

Thank you Mike. I think I have already mentioned the fact that things in the church and its customs that sometimes seem strange to us today always have a logical explanation
behind them.

Effie

[Peter S.]

Just for some perspective for everyone, here is the "all-seeing" eye that is in the Greek church in Tucson, AZ, that I mentioned.

It appears to be sleeping.Dear Fr. Raphael,

If it is true that it sleeps, does that mean something special?
I think I ve heard about this before.

Peter

[Effie Ganatsios]

A single eye in a triangle is also used on the reverse side of the US Great Seal!

"The Eye of Providence

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor." – Closing sentence of the Declaration of Independence "



Effie

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr. Raphael,

If it is true that it sleeps, does that mean something special?
I think I ve heard about this before.

Peter

No, sorry- it was just my poor attempt at humour.

The one explanation for the Eye most often heard in old Russian parishes is that parents used to point to it and tell their children that God is watching.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Deanna Leonti]

A single eye in a triangle is also used on the reverse side of the US Great Seal!

"The Eye of Providence

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor." – Closing sentence of the Declaration of Independence "



Effie

I also am aware of the evil eye that Europeans are familiar with.
(alot of jewelry going around w/eyes on it) However, I do not think it has anything to do with the Eye of Providence"

Does anyone know how the evil eye thing got stared, I know it is in scripture some where.

Deanna

[Paul Cowan]

Let your eye not be evil is from the prayers when we receive mother and child into the church after birth and also from the parable of the land owner paying the talents to the workers. It is an evil eye of envy. It is a moral term.

Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

I also am aware of the evil eye that Europeans are familiar with.
(alot of jewelry going around w/eyes on it) However, I do not think it has anything to do with the Eye of Providence"

Does anyone know how the evil eye thing got stared, I know it is in scripture some where.

Deanna

Deanna, our church does believe in the "evil eye" because there is a prayer, I believe, to protect you from it. We know that some people, from envy, jealousy or even hatred, can wish harm on someone else. If we are the recipients of someone's love and feel better for it, why not the opposite?

But, I also believe that a lot of this is just superstition and has been influenced by old myths that used to circulate in many European countries. I remember I was walking once with my mother and we met a friend and her baby. I made a remark about the beauty of the baby and my mother said, "don't say that! Spit!". I was thoroughly surprised that she would say such a thing. She explained that it was unlucky to remark on someone's beauty or good luck in case the gods or the devil became jealous and took revenge on the person. Babies and children are particularly vulnerable.

Definitely not something that derives from Christianity.

Effie

p.s. When I say spit, I mean of course just the gesture not the real thing............................................. ..................................

The Roman Catholics also have a tradition of the eye in the triangle.

I read this in the Nun's story by Kathryn Hulme.
(I read this book when I was a teenager and found it on a book site and downloaded it last week -
haven't finished it yet )

"Then there were the visits she used to make with her doctor
father to homes in the provinces as they were in the old days,
every one with a big old-fashioned rosary hanging on the wall
from two pegs spaced far enough apart to make the crucifix
fall heart-shape to a point at the base. You seldom saw such
visible piety now. Nor did you see nowadays the great single
eye in a triangle which used to be painted over the zinc bars
of country cafes where her father refreshed himself after his
rounds. She remembered his explaining that the strange com-
pelling design meant that the Eye of God was upon the place
and no cursing would be permitted. The old-fashioned reli-
gious childhood, she thought. God was like one of the family
and this above all is why I am here. I learned to love Him
when I was very young* "

[Deanna Leonti]

Deanna, our church does believe in the "evil eye" because there is a prayer, I believe, to protect you from it. We know that some people, from envy, jealousy or even hatred, can wish harm on someone else. If we are the recipients of someone's love and feel better for it, why not the opposite?

But, I also believe that a lot of this is just superstition and has been influenced by old myths that used to circulate in many European countries. I remember I was walking once with my mother and we met a friend and her baby. I made a remark about the beauty of the baby and my mother said, "don't say that! Spit!". I was thoroughly surprised that she would say such a thing. She explained that it was unlucky to remark on someone's beauty or good luck in case the gods or the devil became jealous and took revenge on the person. Babies and children are particularly vulnerable.

Definitely not something that derives from Christianity.

Effie

p.s. When I say spit, I mean of course just the gesture not the real thing............................................. ..................................

The Roman Catholics also have a tradition of the eye in the triangle.

I read this in the Nun's story by Kathryn Hulme.
(I read this book when I was a teenager and found it on a book site and downloaded it last week -
haven't finished it yet )

"Then there were the visits she used to make with her doctor
father to homes in the provinces as they were in the old days,
every one with a big old-fashioned rosary hanging on the wall
from two pegs spaced far enough apart to make the crucifix
fall heart-shape to a point at the base. You seldom saw such
visible piety now. Nor did you see nowadays the great single
eye in a triangle which used to be painted over the zinc bars
of country cafes where her father refreshed himself after his
rounds. She remembered his explaining that the strange com-
pelling design meant that the Eye of God was upon the place
and no cursing would be permitted. The old-fashioned reli-
gious childhood, she thought. God was like one of the family
and this above all is why I am here. I learned to love Him
when I was very young* "

yes, my Grandmother and all of her friends (Italian & Sicilian descents) also had those prayers along with the rituals said them and they worked...at least I thought so (when I was young I did)

Deanna

ps. yes I have seen that eye also but can't remember in which RCC.
There also is a triangle shape built RCC here.
( I think triangle shape is suppose to be symbolic for the Trinity)

[Owen Jones]

There is an icon of the eye also at Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Augusta, GA. They also had an icon of the Father in the Narthex -- a wizened looking old man -- for many years. I think it was finally removed by a recent priest. They go through priests about every 18 months.

[Ken McRae]

'The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.' - St. Matthew 6:22

[Deanna Leonti]

There is an icon of the eye also at Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Augusta, GA. They also had an icon of the Father in the Narthex -- a wizened looking old man -- for many years. I think it was finally removed by a recent priest. They go through priests about every 18 months.

The Triangle RCC here is called Guardian Angel, and have many visiting priests.

Deanna

[Stephen]

Not to be getting too off topic, but speaking of the archangel Michael I own a small paper icon (Greek, I believe), depicting the archangel holding a shield upon which is a cross and an all-seeing Eye within a triangle. It could have been copied right off a greenback dollar, yet there it was. I've never seen anything like it - I know that the Eye image is associated with Freemasonry, which makes its appearance all the more unusual in Orthodox iconography. Anybody else seen this, or anything similar?

I have seen a stained glass Archangel with the eye in a triangle at an Ukranian Orthodox church. Also, I found this pic on the web from a monastery in Mt. Athos.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/pix/AthosEye-on-RCC-monastary_jpg_view.htm

Here is the direct link for the pic:
http://www.remnantofgod.org/pix/AthosEye-on-RCC-monastary_jpg_view.htm

[Olga]

I have seen a stained glass Archangel with the eye in a triangle at an Ukranian Orthodox church. Also, I found this pic on the web from a monastery in Mt. Athos.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/pix/AthosEye-on-RCC-monastary_jpg_view.htm

Here is the direct link for the pic:
http://www.remnantofgod.org/pix/AthosEye-on-RCC-monastary_jpg_view.htm

Stephen, it's no secret that such images exist in Orthodox churches, even on Mt Athos. The point is, is that they should not be there.

[Demetrios Galanidis]

I have seen a stained glass Archangel with the eye in a triangle at an Ukranian Orthodox church. Also, I found this pic on the web from a monastery in Mt. Athos.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/pix/AthosEye-on-RCC-monastary_jpg_view.htm

Here is the direct link for the pic:
http://www.remnantofgod.org/pix/AthosEye-on-RCC-monastary_jpg_view.htm

One might consider that it was the Freemasons who borrowed the symbolic depiction.

[M.C. Steenberg]

From the above, two comments:

Stephen, it's no secret that such images exist in Orthodox churches, even on Mt Athos. The point is, is that they should not be there.


One might consider that it was the Freemasons who borrowed the symbolic depiction.
This is what interests me: namely, 'which came first', and whether the image is itself intrinsically uncanonical or improper. Olga (or others), have you any specific information on this? It may well be that the image today has too many Masonic implications to be extracted from them and be useful otherwise; but is there an earlier history?

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Andrew]

Maybe Freemasons who go to church at some of these churches had an influence on the iconography? I know some Greek parishes throughout the world have many practicing Freemasons.

[Olga]

From the above, two comments:



This is what interests me: namely, 'which came first', and whether the image is itself intrinsically uncanonical or improper. Olga (or others), have you any specific information on this? It may well be that the image today has too many Masonic implications to be extracted from them and be useful otherwise; but is there an earlier history?

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Fr Matthew, here is an earlier post of mine:

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=65241#poststop

[Anthony Stokes]

Maybe Freemasons who go to church at some of these churches had an influence on the iconography? I know some Greek parishes throughout the world have many practicing Freemasons.


I actually was mentioning this at church this morning and someone brought up that Russian pilgrims to Athos who were masons were known to have donated iconography, often of the "all-seeing eye." But they noted that it is not allowed on the iconostasis. I'm not sure of any sources on this, but it would make sense.

Subdeacon Anthony

[Ryan]

Can anyone set me straight here- is AHEPA merely masonic in inspiration, or are they actually connected to the Masons?

[Demetrios Galanidis]

Can anyone set me straight here- is AHEPA merely masonic in inspiration, or are they actually connected to the Masons?
My understanding is that AHEPA was created precisely so that American Greek Orthodox men would not join a Masonic lodge (for its business related aspects). I've never heard of any connection otherwise.

[Nina]

As it was mentioned earlier, I also remember grandmothers saying to us: "Whatever you do, wherever you go, God's eye is watching you!" So how can you explain to a child the energies of God, His omnipresence etc. unless you throw eyes in the mix? And I assure you my grandmothers did not have PhDs in Egyptology (to know who Ra was and all the symbolism connected to that). Plus Who came first? Our God, or Ra (which was created by people)? Also Who created the eye? Who created the sun? Who created everything that we have in our world? People can defile and pervert created things as much as they wish, however these things are God's and He created them. All glory goes to God. I guess it all depends on how we perceive things. Also the eyes are used in Orthodox iconography also in the case of St. Paraskevi who is the saint intercessor for eyes.

[Ken McRae]

The symbol of the eye within a triangle predates Christianity, and possibly originated in ancient Egypt, as a variant on the Eye of Horus. It is true that this symbol is most associated with Freemasonry and similar groups and societies, which is hardly surprising, as many of their symbols are of Egyptian and Classical origin.

This question might be a bit off-topic, but it ties into the wider context, concerning Horus, the Egyptian Sun God. Prior to my recent viewing of a controversial video documentary, I knew almost nothing about him. However, the documentary in question made the following observations about his life:-

Horus - Egyptian Sun God - @ 3000 BC

- Date of Birth - Dec 25th
- Mother - The Virgin Isis-Mary
- Star in the East appeared to mark his birth
- Adored by 3 kings
- At the age of 12 he was already teaching.
- Baptized by 'Anech' (sic?) at the age of 30.
- Had 12 apostles who travelled around with him
- He healed the sick and walked on water
- Was betrayed by 'Typhon' (sic?)
- Crucified, buried for 3 days, and resurrected.
- He was known by several names such as the Truth, the Light, the Lamb of God and the Good Shepherd, etc.

Needless to say, I was kind taken back a little by such claims, for the very obvious reason that they sound like a carbon copy of the life of Christ; only 3000 years earlier. But it did'nt stop there. The documentary went on further to talk about several other gods who pre-date Jesus Christ, but who shared all of the above and more, in common with the life of Chirst. These are the ones they focused on, but they listed several others in addition to these four:

Mithra - Persian god - 1200 BC
Attis - Greek god - 1200 BC
Krishna - Indian god - 900 BC
Dionysus - Greek god - 500 BC

I suspect many, if not most, of the early gnostics and pagans had some knowledge of these 'parallels' - and so my question concerns whether or not the holy fathers and apologists ever addressed this rpoblem, and how they collectively responded to it? Thanks.

Ken

[Ryan]

This question might be a bit off-topic, but it ties into the wider context, concerning Horus, the Egyptian Sun God. Prior to my recent viewing of a controversial video documentary, I knew almost nothing about him. However, the documentary in question made the following observations about his life:-

Horus - Egyptian Sun God - @ 3000 BC

- Date of Birth - Dec 25th
- Mother - The Virgin Isis-Mary
- Star in the East appeared to mark his birth
- Adored by 3 kings
- At the age of 12 he was already teaching.
- Baptized by 'Anech' (sic?) at the age of 30.
- Had 12 apostles who travelled around with him
- He healed the sick and walked on water
- Was betrayed by 'Typhon' (sic?)
- Crucified, buried for 3 days, and resurrected.
- He was known by several names such as the Truth, the Light, the Lamb of God and the Good Shepherd, etc.

Needless to say, I was kind taken back a little by such claims, for the very obvious reason that they sound like a carbon copy of the life of Christ; only 3000 years earlier. But it did'nt stop there. The documentary went on further to talk about several other gods who pre-date Jesus Christ, but who shared all of the above and more, in common with the life of Chirst. These are the ones they focused on, but they listed several others in addition to these four:

Mithra - Persian god - 1200 BC
Attis - Greek god - 1200 BC
Krishna - Indian god - 900 BC
Dionysus - Greek god - 500 BC

I suspect many, if not most, of the early gnostics and pagans had some knowledge of these 'parallels' - and so my question concerns whether or not the holy fathers and apologists ever addressed this rpoblem, and how they collectively responded to it? Thanks.

Ken

The Fathers often note how Christian truths can be prefigured, albeit in a distorted way, in pagan religions.

That being said, I'm pretty sure this list, impressive as it looks, consists largely of fabrications and distortions by various new agers and theosophists over the years. I don't think you'll find many serious Egyptologists who can support these claims. For example, Horus' 12 disciples... where can you find information on this, apart from the Acharya S book and its supporters? A combination of laziness and antipathy to Christianity drives some people to spin tales like this, and others to follow it unquestioningly. They seem largely ignorant of basic standards of citing sources, providing evidence, etc.

I saw a book recently that claimed that when Christ instituted the eucharist, he really intended for us to ingest magic mushrooms... Are these people demon-possessed, or just plain dumb?

[Ken McRae]

The Fathers often note how Christian truths can be prefigured, albeit in a distorted way, in pagan religions.

Yes, that is a fairly established truth, to be sure!


That being said, I'm pretty sure this list, impressive as it looks, consists largely of fabrications and distortions by various new agers and theosophists over the years.

That is my suspicion as well, but it seems the old Pagan gods, which were once long dead and buried, are experiencing a kind of unprecedented resurrection in our time(s). It may be, as you say, a series "of fabrications and distortions," but it behooves us to do our due diligence in defending the faith.


I don't think you'll find many serious Egyptologists who can support these claims. For example, Horus' 12 disciples... where can you find information on this, apart from the Acharya S book and its supporters?

I don't know. I have never heard of that book before. While such a claim may apparently be an old one, it is news to me, as I've never heard of it before, until recently. I have no idea what Egyptologists might have to say on the subject. It is something I will need to look into. This is something Christians should be on top of, I should think.


A combination of laziness and antipathy to Christianity drives some people to spin tales like this, and others to follow it unquestioningly. They seem largely ignorant of basic standards of citing sources, providing evidence, etc.

Yes, that is true. How many rank 'unbelivers' ever take the time to really investigate the evidences in favour of Christianity? Only too few, if any. They are, as you say, too inclined or predisposed to disbelief, and belieiving in all manner of lies and distortions.


I saw a book recently that claimed that when Christ instituted the eucharist, he really intended for us to ingest magic mushrooms... Are these people demon-possessed, or just plain dumb?

Probably a little bit of both, in most cases, and a lot of both in a few.

[Herman Blaydoe]

This site (http://tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html) (which I believe is Protestant) gives a fairly detailed point-by-point refutation of the Horus "similarities" and specifically discusses which ones have no reputable documentary support. The list is long.

One problem is that there are many different versions of the same "god". Pick the one that comes closest and make up the rest seems to be the modus operandi here.

Herman the mythical Pooh

[Ryan]

This book (http://books.google.com/books?id=KnIYRi3upbEC&dq=christ+conspiracy&ei=feJHSf_OOIHEMojP0egC), with a limited preview available from Google, is the source of most of the allegations. Amusingly, in a chapter alleging that the 12 apostles represent the Zodiac signs, she includes John the Baptist among them... hmm, a real scholar here! She also argues that the word "Christ" is derived from "Krishna", completely ignoring the fact that it's just a Greek translation of Hebrew "messiah." The author's website claims that her book has been attacked by both Christians and atheists... I imagine this is because even the atheists could recognize the complete lack of intellectual integrity in this book.

Books like Christ Conspiracy, Da Vinci Code, Holy Blood, Holy Grail, etc. keep coming out from time to time... it's a lucrative industry for publishers. Therefore, I don't really see a need for Christians to come out with refutations for each one... the time and effort required aren't worth it. It would be more worthwhile to impart some basic critical faculties, such as asking "What are the author's sources?" "Does the author appear to have a pre-set agenda?" "What are the counter-arguments and does the author respond to them"? Etc.

[Vasiliki D.]

I can not speak or explain the origins, history etc relating to the Eye verus the eye .. but I have been taught as a Greek that a quick rule of thumb to distinguish between the two is that the ''evil eye'' used as an imagery of the devil and associated groups is BLUE.

The all-seeing eye of God is represented as brown and most of the time within the triangle.

But let's also put some logic into this equation ... Free-masons are but a few hundred years old and would have stolen many ancient images in developing themselves.

Also, just because something is connotated as evil now does not mean it was considered or treated that way in the past ... take the word ''gay'' for example ... once upon a time it meant happy now it means homosexual ...does that mean when we read poetry from other eras we assume that they meant homosexual (because that is our understanding) or that they meant gay ....

We obviously use the interpretation and understanding from the time that it was in use ...not our own understanding and interpretation ...

Also, the evil eye stuff is purely developed from Greek culture who took a beautiful ecclesiastical image and mixed it in with their superstitious nonsence....

[Olga]

Dear Vasiliki

You wrote:



Also, the evil eye stuff is purely developed from Greek culture who took a beautiful ecclesiastical image and mixed it in with their superstitious nonsense....


I reproduce a quote from an earlier post (http://http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=65241#poststop)on this thread:



Is such a motif compatible with canonical Orthodox iconography? Given the very clear canonical prohibitions against the pictorial depiction of any of the Persons of the Trinity in symbolic form, other than those forms which have been expressly revealed to us, the answer, IMHO, is no.


The "eye in the triangle", while widespread, particularly in Greek churches, is hardly a "beautiful ecclesiastical image", if it is an image which is inconsistent with the canons and principles of iconography. It is no more canonical than representing Christ as a lamb, or as a winged youth, or God the Father as a bearded old man. These images have been deemed by the Orthodox Church as uncanonical, as they are but types and shadows, and do not represent the fullness of divine revelation. Yet, sadly, they continue to appear.

[Andreas Moran]

It is no more canonical than representing Christ as a lamb, or as a winged youth, or God the Father as a bearded old man. These images have been deemed by the Orthodox Church as uncanonical,

What I don't understand is the relationship between canonicity and holiness. Take the Reigning or Derzhavnaya icon of the Mother of God. It is in typically 18th century style and shows a bearded God the Father, yet it is venerated as a mircale-working icon and has an akathist hymn to it composed with the blessing of St Tikhon, which hymn is chanted before it every Sunday.

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[Vasiliki D.]

Hi Olga, I also said that i dont know much in my lead in sentence :) I just wanted to point out a simple rule of thumb that was taught to me when i was younger and it helps me to not get all in a 'tizz' when it comes to the evil eye ... Nowedays, we spend too much time over-analysing the actions of our ancestors ... discussing and discussing that we forget that the Church is not OURS it is God's ...if her permitted it ...perhaps we need to back off ... if the Canons say we mustnt ...then we look at OUR approach and be forgiving to our ancestors who may not have known better :)

[Vasiliki D.]

The "eye in the triangle", while widespread, particularly in Greek churches, is hardly a "beautiful ecclesiastical image", if it is an image which is inconsistent with the canons and principles of iconography. It is no more canonical than representing Christ as a lamb, or as a winged youth, or God the Father as a bearded old man. These images have been deemed by the Orthodox Church as uncanonical, as they are but types and shadows, and do not represent the fullness of divine revelation. Yet, sadly, they continue to appear.

Dear Olga, another thing pops into my mind when reading this ... if we are not somewhat flexible and accomodating to the 2000 year history of Christianity then we must also be just as un-accomodating to the date for Christmas ... 25th December! This is clearly a date chosen to shadow the Pagan sun-god worship ... and yet, our Church does allow this date to continue ...

[Mary Halloran Snyder]

I can not speak or explain the origins, history etc relating to the Eye verus the eye .. but I have been taught as a Greek that a quick rule of thumb to distinguish between the two is that the ''evil eye'' used as an imagery of the devil and associated groups is BLUE....

Your comment put me in mind of something. When I was told about "the evil eye" as a child, it was stressed that those with very light blue, bright "white" type eyes had the malloccia (I don't even know if I am spelling it right.) and there are whole host of superstitious turn back actions that can guard an innocent person against such, primarily not encouraging jealousy or envy by vain display.

I don't believe in the "evil eye" as such now that I am an adult, but I know that anyone no matter what color their eyes are, can look with an evil eye colored by envious or hateful thoughts. It almost always hurts them more than it hurts the intended target, but this is verging on offtopic.

I've been looking through my iconography books, and I don't specifically see a reference to this image, unless I am just not reading the symbol right. I might suspect that the image is some kind of all seeing eye of God, because I find it really hard to believe good Christian people would repeatedly enshrine an evil eye image or some weird masonic symbol in a church or on an icon.

[Vasiliki D.]

Your comment put me in mind of something. When I was told about "the evil eye" as a child, it was stressed that those with very light blue, bright "white" type eyes had the malloccia (I don't even know if I am spelling it right.) and there are whole host of superstitious turn back actions that can guard an innocent person against such, primarily not encouraging jealousy or envy by vain display.

I don't believe in the "evil eye" as such now that I am an adult, but I know that anyone no matter what color their eyes are, can look with an evil eye colored by envious or hateful thoughts. It almost always hurts them more than it hurts the intended target, but this is verging on offtopic.

I've been looking through my iconography books, and I don't specifically see a reference to this image, unless I am just not reading the symbol right. I might suspect that the image is some kind of all seeing eye of God, because I find it really hard to believe good Christian people would repeatedly enshrine an evil eye image or some weird masonic symbol in a church or on an icon.

Hi Mrs Snyder, with all respect you are correct to say that anyone, no matter what the colour of their eyes is, can look at you with an "evil eye' ... the reference to the colour between blue and brown is not about the people performing the act ... it is in reference to the artifacts one can purchase ... in Greece every shop will sell an eye ...the colour of this eye is "blue" ... however, if you look at the icons of the eye (disregard at this point if the icon is or is not canonical) the eye is brown ...

Another matter to point out ... and I dont know if many of the posters understand this ...is that a lot of the books that you all refer to as your source of information have been generally written and printed in America ... that means, from a historical point of view, not all the information you need is available in the English language ... does that mean it is available in any other language? I dont know exactly ... however, if the church has included something or anything in the course of its history ALL OF US need to TRUST in the providence of God ....

Being "scholastic" about these things will only make all of us in this thread arrogant because we act in superiority to the people of the past ... forgive me ... this comment was not intended at you or anyone else in particular ...it is to the common spirit we seem to share in Orthodoxy today ... a spirit of we all know better than at any other point in time ... it really is ... sad.

[Paul Cowan]

Another matter to point out ... and I dont know if many of the posters understand this ...is that a lot of the books that you all refer to as your source of information have been generally written and printed in America ... that means, from a historical point of view, not all the information you need is available in the English language ... does that mean it is available in any other language? I dont know exactly ... however, if the church has included something or anything in the course of its history ALL OF US need to TRUST in the providence of God ....

Being "scholastic" about these things will only make all of us in this thread arrogant because we act in superiority to the people of the past .

As the least learned person on the forum I can say only knowing english, I distrust everything I read until I hear it from the Church Fathers. There are always going to be misinterpretations between languages even from early Greek to modern Greek. I have said many times man has not changed in 7500 years except for his level of technology. So to have a mental superiority of people of the past is as you say a sad state of being.

I think one benefit of this forum is it allows people with various backgrounds and educational levels to "hash out" if you will what the meanings of the words the Church Fathers used in their explanations. I many times have jumped into a conversation too quickly and and showed how little I knew of a subject or came to a subject from the wrong direction. Those with more experience more often than not gently showed me the error of my thinking. We do have many experts here in the forum in their specific field of interest. Olga's field of expertise is iconography.

As the "eye" is being discussed; I listen to the advise of those with knowledge on the subject. The evil eye is bad. 'nough said. I don't need to dig further into it. Blue or brown does not make a difference.

Forgive me
Paul