The dynamics of spiritual direction

[Norman Turner]

An important aspect of spiritual growth seems to involve the the approaches of both the spiritual director (elder) and his or her disciple. John Chryssavgis has written on this subject in his book, "Soul Mending: The Art of Spiritual Direction" pp. 80-1; Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 2000; ISBN 1-885652-47-X (pbk).

Here Chryssavgis deals with the "dynamics" of spiritual direction. I wish open a discussion on these dynamics to tease out some of the operative threads or underlying currents and assumptions. Personally, I think the author has alluded to some very important things. He writes:

"The spiritual director is encouraged to empower, and the disciple is encouraged to exercise his or her own judgment, to assert his or her self-will."

Chryssavgis goes on to quote a saying about Abba Poemen.

"A brother asked Abba Poemen: 'I am harming my soul through staying near my Abba. Should I stay near him?' And the old man said: 'Stay if you want.' So he went back and stayed there. He came again and said: 'I am losing my soul. Should I leave?' But the old man did not say: 'Leave.' He came to him a third time and said: 'I really cannot stay any longer. I am Leaving.' Abba Poemen said to him: 'See now you have been healed. Go and stay no longer.'"

Chryssavgis goes on to comment:

There "is a limit placed on the director . . . safeguarding the spiritual boundaries of the disciple. Abba Poemen seems to be struggling to exclude his own will, while expanding that of the disciple. He knows that healing is not found through 'what is being done by others to us,' but in the final analysis through 'what is done by us in ourselves.' "

Chryssavgis, here, does not specifically refer to the Holy Spirit working in us.

Chryssavgis goes on to further illustrate his line of thought by referring us to Poemen's Saying Number 174 (in Benedicta Ward's "Sayings of the Desert Fathers"):

"A brother asked Abba Poemen: 'Some brothers live with me, do you want me to be in charge of them?' The old man said to him, 'No, just work first and foremost, and if they want to live like you, they will see to it themselves.' The brother said to him, 'But it is they themselves, Father, who want me to be in charge of them.' The old man said to him, 'No, be their example, not their legislator.' "

Again, the purpose of my post is to open up a conversation about the dynamics (what is going on) in spiritual guidance - what is to be desired and what is to be eschewed.

Thanks for your attention.
Norm Turner, Toronto

[Michael Stickles]

I confess that one thing you quoted from Chryssavgis' book troubles me a bit:


He writes:

"The spiritual director is encouraged to empower, and the disciple is encouraged to exercise his or her own judgment, to assert his or her self-will."

Perhaps Chryssavgis does not use the term "self-will" in the same way I normally see it used, but in all of my reading up to this point on the topic of spiritual direction, the various authors are unanimous in saying that the disciple must mortify his or her self-will, not assert it.

As Abba Poemen said (http://wordfromthedesert.squarespace.com/meditations/2008/5/5/abba-poemen-said.html) (emphasis mine):


To throw yourself before God, not to measure your progress, to leave behind all self-will; these are the instruments for the work of the soul.

Or, to quote Hesychios the Priest (http://kcw7.home.insightbb.com/) (from the Philokalia):


We should of our own free choice gladly cut off our whole will through obedience. In this way, with God’s help, we shall become to some degree tractable and free from self-will. It is good to acquire this art, for then our bile will not be aroused and we shall not excite our incensive power unnaturally and uncontrollably, and so be deprived of communion with God in our unseen warfare. If we do not voluntarily cut off our self-will, it will become enraged with those who try to compel us to cut it off; and then our incensive power will become abusively aggressive and so destroy that knowledge of the warfare which we have gained only after great effort. The incensive power by nature is prone to be destructive. If it is turned against demonic thoughts it destroys them; but if it is roused against people it then destroys the good thoughts that are in us. In other words, the incensive power, although God-given as a weapon or a bow against evil, can be turned the other way and used to destroy good thoughts as well, for it destroys whatever it is directed against.

The "limit placed on the director" which Chryssavgis speaks of is not to leave room for the disciple to assert self-will, but to give him or her space to surrender it. As Bishop Kallistos Ware has written (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/spiritualfather.aspx):


(T)he obedience offered by the spiritual son to his Abba is not forced but willing and voluntary. It is the task of the starets to take up our will into his will, but he can only do this if by our own free choice we place it in his hands. He does not break our will, but accepts it from us as a gift. A submission that is forced and involuntary is obviously devoid of moral value; the starets asks of each one that he offer to God his heart, not his external actions.

When Abba Poemen told his disciple "Stay if you want," I don't believe he was trying to get his disciple to assert self-will. One account of this story (http://books.google.com/books?id=kXan5gGbGIAC&pg=PA93&source=gbs_search_s&sig=-M9VKzOmnFB5HQkgziCNLMnudWo) says that Abba Poemen was surprised the brother even asked this (since he knew the brother found staying harmful), and notes that he said at the end "When someone sees that he is in danger of losing his soul, he does not need to ask advice." In the lives of the saints, when asked for direction by someone who already knows the answer (or should) to his or her question, they would often say "Do what you want" or even not answer at all, as a way to bring forth, not self-will, but self-examination and discernment.

In Christ,
Mike

[Kyrill Bolton]

I am the last person that should give spiritual guidance or advice (and this is certainly not meant to be such) I will make a couple of observations regarding how I read Mr. Turner's message.

First, I am thinking that his view of 'spiritual direction' is not the same as found in the Philokalia or re-stated in more modern discourse by Archimandrite Hierotheos Vlachos in some of his writing such as "Orthodox Psychotherapy. (An abbreviated version can be found at http://www.vic.com/~tscon/pelagia/ht...therapy.00.htm and a discussion of the book and its approach to 'spiritual change' can be found in this forum at http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3702 ) Please note that I said spiritual change as opposed to spiritual guidance as for a couple reasons. First, it is my understanding that in Orthodoxy change comes from the Holy Spirit interacting with our spirit. A director or elder, like the Holy Spirit, does not impose his/her will on the searcher but rather seeks to fill the void in the searcher that the person has opened. Secondly, I am having a visceral reaction to the term 'spiritual director' without knowing if that person has achieved some level or manner of deification. (I am well acquainted with a professor in a Baptist seminary who holds himself out as a spiritual director but, on an intellectual level, rejects any such concept or possibility of deification. The reader should therefore treat my 'visceral' reaction as a purely personal manifestation based upon my interaction with the professor.)

Restating or maybe clarifying I see the Orthodox view of spiritual growth to be a process of deification or become god like and I am thinking that I read Mr. Turner's view as it is a process of coming 'closer' to God. The semantics of growth, change or direction aside Mr. Turner narrows the discussion to the use of the 'will' in the process. The Orthodox view is that the will in its present state has been corrupted by the effects of our sins (and this is a cumulative corruption growing more and more estranged from God as we (or more particularly, I) continuing in my willful rebellion. Thus to follow my self-will is to turn to my self-centered, God-hating, old nature to seek a cure. I believe the analogy is a dog returning to its vomit. I must first battle and defeat the passions that for over sixty years have ruled supreme and then can my will start to be transformed.

Yes an elder is needed to keep me on the narrow path (Archimandrite Hierotheos suggests that one of the original roles of a deacon was to guide the seeker in the first step of defeating the passions, the priest in the next stage and finally the bishop in deification). But all the discussion, all the book knowledge, all the wishful thinking about becoming god-like or even coming 'closer' to God, or all the godly direction of an elder is for naught if my passions dictate to my will and my will is thus corrupted. Orthodoxy teaches that one surrenders to their elder as if to Christ. (St. Paul teaches, especially in Corinthians that one should follow him as an elder, by suborning his will, as if following Christ. If you think about it to follow St. Paul or a deified elder is to follow Christ.)

If I am correct in my thought that Mr. Turner's view differs from that of Orthodoxy, then I hope this is a start to comparing the differences. (If not, being sinful is not my only mistake.) Forgive me for my boldness in responding without having read 'Soul Mending: The Art of Spiritual Direction.'

In Christ

Kyrill

[Norman Turner]

Thank you, Mike and Kyrill, for your replies.

I am taken aback by what I do not know about spiritual growth in the Orthodox tradition. I will be certainly be studying further.

On reflection, I seem to have extracted only one approach in Chryssavgis that may be common in Protestant and Roman Catholic tradition, but certainly not the centrepiece in Orthodoxy.

Perhaps, Christian spirituality may be viewed as a multifaceted diamond. Some focus and draw vigour from some facets, others from different facets. And yet, to both of us the "diamond" remains a mystery.

I am reminded of an imperfect analogy. My wife uses chopsticks and I use a fork to eat many of the same foods. Both of us appear equally well-fed. To conclude, Orthodox views are, and I suspect will remain, very important to me.

Thanks.
Norm

[Andreas Moran]

Like Mike, my immediate reaction to what was quoted from Chryssavgis' book was, 'this doesn't seem right'. Having said that, I don't know the book. But for a thorough exposition of the role of the spiritual father, I suggest the relevant chapter in 'The Enlargement of the Heart in the Theology of Saint Silouan the Athonite and Elder Sophrony of Essex' by Archimandrite Zacharias, Mount Thabor Publishing, 2006. It is not easy to quote from this chapter because the whole is a continuous thread. But it is worthwhile highlighting two points. First, the spiritual father bears and transmits the word of God for the edification of the people. He must overcome his own pschological inclinations. He needs to discern the word of God even when that word is contrary to psychological understanding. When the spiritual father sees that a person is only on the psychological plane and not the spiritual, he does not ask for a word from God but speaks from his experience. Secondly, a spiritual father must have the humility to remember that, whilst he is to regenerate the person and guide them to theosis, he is not a saviour of souls: Christ is our Saviour.

[Owen Jones]

Let's be clear about one thing: spiritual direction rarely takes place in a parish environment today, and then only haphazardly. And in my experience and observation, there is virtually no spiritual direction of priests by their bishops. All of the examples one reads about are from and about monastics. But I would hazard that even in monasteries, there is less spiritual direction than one might assume or expect. They are too busy doing services. And the assumption is that the services are the spiritual direction, both in the monastery and in the parish.

There have been some monasteries historically that practice what is known as revelation of thoughts, or confession of thoughts. There is, I think, a problem in reducing confession simply to a recitation of sins, while not attending to thoughts that include the whole spectrum. If we were to take written account of our thoughts during the day, this would likely come as quite a shock as to what occupies our minds.

So what is one to do, if one wishes to avail oneself of spiritual direction? That is really the key question, rather than an abstract discourse on the subject. I suspect that most of us, if we were to go seeking spiritual direction, would find it a frustrating experience.

[Michael Stickles]

So what is one to do, if one wishes to avail oneself of spiritual direction? That is really the key question, rather than an abstract discourse on the subject. I suspect that most of us, if we were to go seeking spiritual direction, would find it a frustrating experience.

Perhaps a good place to start would be St. Symeon the New Theologian's prayer for finding a spiritual father:


"O Lord, who desirest not the death of a sinner but that he should turn and live, Thou who didst come down to earth in order to restore life to those lying dead through sin and in order to make them worthy of seeing Thee the true light as far as that is possible to man, send me a man who knows Thee, so that in serving him and subjecting myself to him with all my strength, as to Thee, and in doing Thy will in his, I may please Thee the only true God, and so that even I, a sinner, may be worthy of Thy Kingdom".

- From "Orthodox Psychotherapy" by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos; quoted on the "Spiritual Guidance in the World (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/pr_guidance.aspx)" page at OrthodoxInfo.com.

Of course, there is always the old adage, repeated in different forms in different societies - "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." I am sure I would find a search for a true spiritual director frustrating, but I suspect this adage says everything about why it would be frustrating for me.

In Christ,
Mike

[Owen Jones]

Of course, being frustrated in one's attempts is not necessarily a bad thing. It is a test of one's devotion and persistence.

[Ken McRae]

I am taken aback by what I do not know about spiritual growth in the Orthodox tradition. I will be certainly be studying further.

Dear Norman,

May I be so bold as to recommend the 'priceless' thread by Fr. Seraphim Black (Petru Voda), entitled 'Monasticism and spiritual fatherhood (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2858).' Without a doubt, it is a true treasure trove of Patristic wisdom and insight, concerning the divine institution of spiritual fatherhood. It contains many deep layers and revelations of this divine mystery; and it is of a certainty that you'll not penetrate its true depths with a single reading. What you will manage to glean from it is entirely dependent upon several critical factors, not least of which is your degree of spiritual receptivity.

As far as Mike's statement goes, concerning the Teacher's appearing when the student is ready, that is of course a veritable Truth. The Teacher of whom we speak is none other than Christ Himself, obviously, living in and ministering through the father confessor to whom we submit ourselves, in humble obedience. Fr. Seraphim Black has much to say about the essential criteria that must be met, as the pre-condition(s) of this appearance; the most critical aspects of which are the grace of unquestioning faith and lowliness of mind, as witnessed to in the following terms:-




'When the monk seeks the will of God with the disposition of a lowly disciple, he is prepared to accept the 'first word' (Saint Silouan, pp. 85-86) of his spiritual father as coming from the mouth of the Lord, in whose name, likewise, he had asked advice.

Since this 'first word' is so integral to discerning the will of God let us turn to the pages of the book 'Saint Silouan' quoted above. (bolding and underlining - mine)

'Discerning the Divine will and submission to the Divine will are bound up in the closest possible way with the question of obedience, to which the Staretz attributed the utmost importance, not only for monks and Christians individually but in the life of the whole body of the Church, in her fulness (pleroma).

'...He (Staretz Silouan) would pay quite exceptional attention to inner spiritual obedience to his Higoumen and spiritual father, considering this like a Church Sacrament, like a gift of grace. When he turned to his spiritual father he would pray that the Lord through His servant might have mercy on him, reveal to him His will and the way to salvation. And knowing that the first thought (italics - mine) that comes to the soul after prayer is a sign from on high, he would seize on his confessor's first words, his first intimation, and go no further. In this lies wisdom and the secret of true obedience (bold-highlighting - mine), the purpose of which is to know and fulfil God's will, and not man's. Spiritual obedience of this kind, with no objections, no resistance, expressed or unexpressed, is the sine qua non for receiving living tradition.

'Living tradition, flowing down the centuries from generation to generation, is one of the most vital and at the same time subtle aspects of the Church's life. Where he meets with no opposition the preceptor in response to faith and humility finds it easy to open up his soul, maybe fully. But the instant the spiritual father encounters resistance, however slight, the thread of pure tradition is broken (bold-highlight - mine) and the preceptor's soul closes up.

'Many people make the mistake of looking upon a spiritual guide as just an ordinary man like themselves, having like failings. (They think they must 'explain all the circumstances to him, otherwise he won't understand'. He may easily 'get it wrong' and must therefore be 'put on the right track'.)

'But those who contradict and correct their spiritual father place themselves above him and are no longer disciples. True, nobody is perfect, and there is no man alive who would venture to teach like Christ, "as one having authority" (Matt. vii:29), for teaching is "not of man" and "not after man" (Gal. i:11-12) but the potter's clay encompasses the priceless treasure of the gifts of the Holy Spirit - not only priceless but by their very nature not to be made known, and only he who pursues the path of true and absolute obedience can penetrate into this secret storehouse.



If there is anything that I have tried to bring to light in the above passages, it is that the wisdom of Spiritual Fathers and Mothers is absolutely dependent on the humility of the Spiritual Child: 'the thread of pure tradition is broken' at the very moment that we question or analyze.

We are, in essence, striving to acquire the Patristic mind of Christ, through a living transmission and direct encounter with Him in our spiritual father. This is what Fr. Seraphim refers to as "the pure and unbroken thread of the living Tradition." St. Symeon the New Theologian describes it in terms of the mystical aspect of apostolic succession, forming a golden chain of saints, directly linking us to the holy Apostles themselves. At any rate, I have said too much for one that stands "outside" the Tradition, through striving to find his Way in, somehow by Divine Grace.

There is one last thing, though, that I wish to observe in passing, concerning Owen's comment about "being frustrated in one's attempts" to find a spiritual father. There is a sense, of course, in which this is a very common experience, that even Elder Sophrony himself was personally well-schooled in. That is, however, largely our own fault, on account of our own high-mindedness. Then there is the essential pre-condition of 'pain of heart,' or suffering Orthodoxy, according to Fr. Seraphim Rose. For more in that, I recommend a careful perusal of his little book entitled, 'God's Revelation to the Human Heart.'

This holy mystery of 'pain of heart' is witnessed in several places of Holy Scripture. One such text is found in Genesis 22:14, where it says, "In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen." This is the summary of Fr. Abraham's mystical experience acquired in the offering up of Isaac, the son of promise, as a burnt offering unto the Lord. The Lord tried his faith to an extreme, and it is in the height or peak of such extremities that the Lord will be found. What kind of 'pain of heart' do you think Fr. Abraham experienced as he lifted the dagger high above his son, ready to plunge it deep into his heart?

Humbly,
Ken

[Ken McRae]

There is one last thing, though, that I wish to observe in passing, concerning Owen's comment about "being frustrated in one's attempts" to find a spiritual father. There is a sense, of course, in which this is a very common experience, that even Elder Sophrony himself was personally well-schooled in. That is, however, largely our own fault, on account of our own high-mindedness.

A minor qualification I wish to make here is that I did not mean to imply, in any way, that Elder Sophrony was frustrated by 'high-mindedness' That was meant to be a general observation or remark applying mainly to myself, but also to the general masses; and by high-mindedness, I meant essentially the opposite of that 'simplicity' or unquestioning child-like faith of which Fr. Seraphim spoke, in his presentation of Elder Sophrony's patristic teaching on spiritual fatherhood.



Then there is the essential pre-condition of 'pain of heart,' or suffering Orthodoxy, according to Fr. Seraphim Rose. For more in that, I recommend a careful perusal of his little book entitled, 'God's Revelation to the Human Heart (http://www.stherman.com/catalog/chapter_one/grhh_book.htm).'

On the topic of 'pain pf heart,' I would like to post two quotes from the holy Optina elders. The first is taken from St. Nikon and illustrates, in a way, my intended meaning. The second is taken from St. Anatoly, and affords us a small glimpse into the mystery of how to properly cultivate this 'pain of heart,' through the cultivation of unceasing prayer:-

1) St. Nikon: "It is pleasing to God that that people be guided by other people. In short, every monk must enter the struggle with self-denial and must force himself, with pain of heart[u], to the warfare with passions. If he will not struggle in such a way, no kind of elder will help him. One God-pleasing man said, 'The elder weeps for him (the disciple) and is praying, but he is playing.' " (p. 45)

2) St. Anatoly: "One can retain the prayer (of Jesus) mentally during sickness, when infirm, when with people and during work. Only sometimes [u]the head aches, but what can you do? After that one comes to like it. A thousand times over comes to like it. Try to hold the thought with Jesus not only in the head, but direct it a little toward the chest. Then, of course, the chest will heart, but without this it is impossible. Our God is a consuming fire. And where it is impure-there it hurts. Such pain is sent because of our unworthiness. But in time, it will pass." (p. 92)

These two texts are gleaned from the book entitled, Living without Hypocrisy, published by Holy Trinity Monastery. I must confess, though, that St. Anatoly's words about the passing away of this heart-felt pain strike me as just a little mysterious. I have been inclined, in the past, to view this 'pain of heart' perpetual, in a sense; as intimately tied into suffering Orthodoxy, and a perpetual compunction of heart fostered by the painful memory of former sins, even though they be forgiven. How shall the memory of our former rebellions and "kicking against the pricks" (Acts 9:5) not evoke a torrent of tears and perpetual pain of heart? Alas! Such is my own lack of simplicity and unquestioning faith.

Humbly,
Ken

[Ken McRae]

1) St. Nikon: "It is pleasing to God that that people be guided by other people. In short, every monk must enter the struggle with self-denial and must force himself, with pain of heart, to the warfare with passions. If he will not struggle in such a way, no kind of elder will help him. One God-pleasing man said, 'The elder weeps for him (the disciple) and is praying, but he is playing.' " (p. 45)

2) St. Anatoly: "One can retain the prayer (of Jesus) mentally during sickness, when infirm, when with people and during work. Only sometimes the head aches, but what can you do? After that one comes to like it. A thousand times over comes to like it. Try to hold the thought with Jesus not only in the head, but direct it a little toward the chest. Then, of course, the chest will heart, but without this it is impossible. Our God is a consuming fire. And where it is impure-there it hurts. Such pain is sent because of our unworthiness. But in time, it will pass." (p. 92)

Since I unable edit the "typos" in my posts, without the assistance of a moderator, I am forced to point them out in a following post; so please forgive me. Now, in the second quote above, from St. Anatoly, a most grievous typo appears. It says there that "the chest will heart," which makes absolutely no sense; as it should have said "the chest will hurt," not "heart," as it appears.

[Rick H.]

Dear All,

After reading the latest batch of posts this morning, I think I would rather have an ale than coffee right now. (thanks for the spelling help Olga, Nina got me straightened around on 'who's and whose one day, now I am good to go on the 'ale/ail') :) But, it's like we are starting this thread all over again. I don't think I want to run around this same track again because I don't think there would be a good return on the investment. But, I am most interested in Father David's post when he wrote:




The only way that yoga style exercises can have any positive benefits is if you undertake them with the blessing of your spiritual father and do these exercises as an obedience.



As earlier posts have indicated it is not uncommon in Orthodoxy for priests and spiritual fathers to give this blessing. Although the one I first talked to about initially learning about yogic practices did not speak to me about an obedience.

But, if you read this Father, here's what I would really like some help with please, when you wrote:




The moment you begin to do yoga exercises (or any other thing) because "it seems like a good idea" to you or because you think it's OK or because you don't see any harm in it then it is comes from self will and is detrimental to your soul. Even though you may gain some physical benefits, the injunction of the Gospel still applies, "Beware lest you gain the whole world and lose your soul."



and, this is exactly why I love explorative threads like this one . . . so many things come out that are helpful to the likes of me as we move along. But, specifically what I am wondering about here is your proposition that: if one does yoga or any other thing because it seems like a good idea to that one then it comes from self will and is detrimental to your soul.

Here it seems you are saying:

If we do anything because it seems like a good idea (without the blessing of one's spiritual father), it is of self-will and it is detrimental to your soul.

And, I'm wondering if this is what you want to say?

There are many many things that I do that I have not talked to a spiritual father or priest about.

I love to garden, I love everything about horticulture. In many ways my interests in and motivation for gardening is the same as my interest in yoga. In fact, now that I think about it there are many parallels between these two in terms of physical exercise and there is a kind of contemplative aspect of gardening as well.

But, do you see what I'm wondering here? Are we saying that an Orthodox man/woman must have the blessing of his/her spiritual father for all things that seem good or okay in life like gardening or whatever? I understand that it is not a 100% rule that everything that seems good or okay to some would be detrimental to their souls, like the ones practicing yoga with the blessing of their spiritual fathers and preists . . . but, I must admit as I consider other activities like golf, fishing, camping, hunting, woodworking, small engine repair, and so on . . . the proposition that you have laid down above has my attention.

Thank you.

In Christ,
Rick

[Norman Turner]

Ken, thank you for the posts and references you provided. I, too, treasure petru voda's posts and certainly miss him.

Owen Jones' post (in this thread) on the actual practice of spiritual direction, as opposed to the dynamics or models, seems important at this juncture. I have been under spiritual direction for 8 years, as well as receiving some guidance in the practice of the "art" from the Jesuits (though I am not a spiritual director). In my personal experience, there is sometimes a disparity between the ideals and classical systems of spiritual direction and what actually occurs. (I speak only from my experience of spiritual direction received in an Anglican convent, Jesuit college, and Franciscan friary.)

Perhaps, it is now opportune to look at the "Practice of Spiritual Direction" in the Orthodox World today? Maybe, some Orthodox monks, nuns and priests who practice this "art of arts" could contribute to this thread?

Thanks, Norm

[Effie Ganatsios]

There are many many things that I do that I have not talked to a spiritual father or priest about.

I love to garden, I love everything about horticulture. In many ways my interests in and motivation for gardening is the same as my interest in yoga. In fact, now that I think about it there are many parallels between these two in terms of physical exercise and there is a kind of contemplative aspect of gardening as well.

But, do you see what I'm wondering here? Are we saying that an Orthodox man/woman must have the blessing of his/her spiritual father for all things that seem good or okay in life like gardening or whatever?

In Christ,
Rick

Taking this a little further I would have to say that gardening might, just might, install in you a tendency to worship nature instead of God. But only if you allowed it, and you would realize it, I believe, before it had the ability to harm you.

This would be something that you would need to discuss with your spiritual father.

And that is the only harm I can see in gardening, and even the idea of this happening is very far-fetched.

Yoga differs from gardening, and other types of activity, in that it has a spiritual side, one that is alien to what we believe as Christians and Orthodox.

As I have already said, if a person is strong enough to separate the two sides of yoga, and use only it's physical exercises as a method of keeping fit (and I am the first to acknowledge that the exercises are extremely beneficial and are a pleasure to do) then OK. But who is this strong? I wasn't.

Re spiritual fathers : My spiritual father is my friend. Spiritual matters are not the only things I discuss with him. I think I have already mentioned him and the type of person he is. He and his wife are always there for us. There are lots of incidents I could mention that show what a loving person he is. But my point is that I feel free to discuss just about everything with him. And if I felt that gardening for example, was making me worship God's creation instead of God himself then I would discuss this with him.

I would be interested to know (perhaps on another thread) what the relationship between spiritual fathers and those on this forum is. What kind of relationship do we except from our spiritual fathers? What is expected of us? On another thread we discussed a little the relationship between godparents and godchildren. Spiritual fathers are as important as godparents and we need to be extra careful that we select the right one.

Effie

Gardening

"That beautiful season the Summer!
Filled was the air with a dreamy and magical light;
and the landscape
Lay as if new created in all the freshness of childhood."
- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

I was struck by a comment made by Fr David, which has since generated some questions from Rick. The comment was:


The only way that yoga style exercises can have any positive benefits is if you undertake them with the blessing of your spiritual father and do these exercises as an obedience. The moment you begin to do yoga exercises (or any other thing) because "it seems like a good idea" to you or because you think it's OK or because you don't see any harm in it then it is comes from self will and is detrimental to your soul. Even though you may gain some physical benefits, the injunction of the Gospel still applies, "Beware lest you gain the whole world and lose your soul."

One of the difficulties with obedience in contemporary society is that it has been divorced from the dynamics of relationship. When obedience -- in this context, of 'doing nothing without a blessing' -- becomes a rote requirement for approval before undertaking or engaging in an act, it loses all sense of being the expression of a relationship. It is in this stripping of relational context that questions such as 'do I really need to ask permission for everything?' begin to emerge, for the obtaining of a blessing, the submission of obedience, is conceived of principally as a back-and-forth of permissions. This often leads to individuals reading ascetical (monastic) texts that speak of 'doing nothing without a blessing', and then starting to ask their spiritual fathers for blessings to brush their teeth, take out the rubbish, etc. (to the great bemusement of many of these spiritual fathers).

Obedience is a life of relation. The will is laid subject in willing submission to the will of another, that deep within the heart the will becomes accustomed to operating not of its own desires, but of the desires of God. Earthly obedience waters the ground of true divine obedience. But this must be exercised in relation, so that the intellect learns how to be obedient in all things, without all things becoming a question. The Son's obedience to the Father did not come in his constantly asking the Father, 'What should I do next?', but in his union with the Father's will, so that his obedience was a continual expression of that relation.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Michael Stickles]

Are we saying that an Orthodox man/woman must have the blessing of his/her spiritual father for all things that seem good or okay in life like gardening or whatever? I understand that it is not a 100% rule that everything that seems good or okay to some would be detrimental to their souls, like the ones practicing yoga with the blessing of their spiritual fathers and preists . . . but, I must admit as I consider other activities like golf, fishing, camping, hunting, woodworking, small engine repair, and so on . . .

It probably depends on the specific relationship. Requiring a "blessing for everything" seems to be the rule for monastics, at least according to the reading I've done (I've never actually asked a monk or nun if it works out quite that strictly in practice).Our parish priest, however, doesn't expect me to come to him for a blessing for every little decision; only when I have a question or some uncertainty and need guidance. Probably lots of variations exist.

In Christ,
Mike

[Rick H.]

Probably lots of variations exist.




That's what I am thinking Mike--'lots of variations.' And, thanks very much for your thoughts on obedience and a life of relation Fr. Dcn . . . when someone starts talking about being or communion this same person will get my attention every time. And, while I appreciate and agree 100% with what is said-- especially about the relationship between the Father and the Son not being a constant asking of the Son of the Father what He should do next-- what I like about this yoga thread is this topic of discussion brings things down out of the clouds. Here we can consider and grapple not with each other, but with what has been presented, in theory, in order that we might receive it as our own, in practice, and in the world in which we garden, and then possibly have a cup of tea before sitting down to spend time online with our computers.

And, here, in this place, in this thread we see different schools of thought, and we see the ideal, but we also see:




Let's be clear about one thing: spiritual direction rarely takes place in a parish environment today, and then only haphazardly. And in my experience and observation, there is virtually no spiritual direction of priests by their bishops. All of the examples one reads about are from and about monastics. But I would hazard that even in monasteries, there is less spiritual direction than one might assume or expect. They are too busy doing services. And the assumption is that the services are the spiritual direction, both in the monastery and in the parish.



And, in some ways this gets back to the questions of some in this thread who rightly asked, 'Why would anyone do yoga?' . . . 'What is the motivation for doing yoga?' And, from this we have considered somewhat such as "an historic Orthodoxy" and "Orthodoxy today,." as well as what Orthodoxy today may or may not be lacking. And, now, it seems we are considering Orthodoxy in theory and Orthodoxy in practice 'today.' This is a very strong statement above, ". . . spiritual direction rarely takes place in a parish environment today . . ." And, this is not without relevance especially in light of Mike's comments above about one's corporate and one's personal experience of Orthodoxy 'today.' If this is the experience of most, that there is a lack of spiritual direction, then it is not hard to understand why, at the End of the day, Orthodox Christians are faced with the choice to strike out and find a Beginning in historical Orthodoxy (which is what brought many of us individuals in in the first place), or to strike the same pose as the men/early ascetics who, by faith, first brought about the institution of spiritual direction by withdrawing from the Christian communities.

But, I guess what is being said above about Orthodoxy 'today' is written by Americans who are experiencing Orthodoxy in America or, if you will, an American Orthodoxy 'today'?

In Christ,
Rick

PS Effie, I wonder if you remember or read Maria Mahoney's thread "Contemplation of the Divine Logos." That was a great one as it relates to nature. There we saw a real blurring of the line . . . even the fathers left themselves open to the charge of pantheism, although this was clearly not the case!

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Rick and others,

Above, you wrote:


what I like about this yoga thread is this topic of discussion brings things down out of the clouds. Here we can consider and grapple not with each other, but with what has been presented

If it is the practical dimension of the matter that interests, then I think this is particularly straight forward. Echoing what Father David has already written, the only way for the practice of yoga to have the possibility of any benefit to the existence of the Christian person as a whole is for it to be done with the express blessing of one's spiritual father -- and whether or not a spiritual father would give that blessing, or counsel some other practice, is not for me to say. But this is an issue of an utterly different category than gardening or going for a stroll: it is of dedicated, specific practices aimed at the holistic well-being of the person, which is body and spirit (whichever aspect or aspects particular techniques of yoga might address), and to engage in such practices without the blessing of obedience might bring some 'perks' to limber muscles, etc.; but the whole person cannot benefit without such practice being carried out under a blessing.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Father David Moser]

Here it seems you are saying:

If we do anything because it seems like a good idea (without the blessing of one's spiritual father), it is of self-will and it is detrimental to your soul....

There are many many things that I do that I have not talked to a spiritual father or priest about.

I love to garden, I love everything about horticulture. In many ways my interests in and motivation for gardening is the same as my interest in yoga.

I am not talking about some slavish (and frankly annoying) practice of calling your spiritual father and asking what clothes you should wear or for a blessing to eat breakfast (and then going over the menu to decide which foods you have a blessing for that day) or something like that. In most cases a parish priest will expect his parishioners to exercise "common sense" and do what is normal in the course of their lives. They come and ask a blessing when they step outside the routine.

Off topic story - I once had a deacon who was still pretty new and nervous about a lot of things. He would ask a blessing for every little liturgical thing. After I was sure that he knew what he was doing (ie after the initial learning curve), this constant asking for a blessing got to be annoying and hindered both my function as a priest and his function as a deacon. Finally, in response to one of his requests for a blessing for something he should just be doing, I said to him, "Father, you have a blessing to use your common sense!" and it was like a light went on for him. Given that freedom within the parameters of his role as a deacon, he blossomed and grew into a confident and able assistant whose diaconate really enhanced my priestly labors. End of story - he is now a priest and rector of his own parish

Lets take your gardening. You might ask and receive a blessing to undertake gardening, and then you just garden, doing all the things that gardeners do. But then you might think that your garden is so peaceful and tranquil that you would like a little shrine in the middle. Since you are an Orthodox Christian, this is not an "out of the ordinary" thing and so you might put up a little outside kivot with an icon of the Mother of God and ask the priest to come and bless your little shrine. All well and good since all the above are within the "normal" domain of your life as a gardener and as an Orthodox Christian. However, perhaps you saw a really nice statue of the Virgin Mary at the garden shop - or perhaps one of Francis of Assisi. Building a shine around one of these would be a departure from the normal course of gardening and/or being an Orthodox Christian and so you might go to your priest beforehand and ask a bless for this "departure from the norm".

Yoga, an exercise system based on a pagan spirituality, would be a "departure from the norm" for an Orthodox Christian and so something you would want to ask a blessing for beforehand. As a parish priest, that would be within the realm of things I would expect and encourage parishioners to ask about before engaging.

Also I think that Fr Matthews comments on the relational aspect of obedience are important. Note in that light the above story about my former deacon.

Fr David Moser

[Father David Moser]

I saw this post from Owen earlier and was reminded of it by Rick's recent quote in his post. There are some presumptions here that I think are not so general as Owen might indicate


Let's be clear about one thing: spiritual direction rarely takes place in a parish environment today

I beg to differ. Most of the priests I know (I can't think of any exceptions at this moment) exercise some form of "spiritual direction" in their parishes striving to guide he daily lives of their flocks in a spiritually beneficial direction. It is certainly not the intensity of spiritual direction seen on Mt Athos or in the desert fathers, but it is there. If it seems absent, perhaps its because the parish priest often will only offer the members of his flock that which they are ready to accept. Now Owen's experience may be different - but the point is that his experience and observations are not universally applicable.



And in my experience and observation, there is virtually no spiritual direction of priests by their bishops.

Again this is not my experience by any stretch. True, my bishop gives me a lot of leeway to function independently as a parish priest - but the parameters of my actions are clearly set by him. On the occasions where I have had a significant spiritual issue (for example when I needed a new confessor) I discussed my situation with him and received from him very compassionate and loving spiritual direction.


There have been some monasteries historically that practice what is known as revelation of thoughts, or confession of thoughts.

This is not the normal parish practice, nor is it what I would consider to be "spiritual direction" This is a specific monastic practice that may or may not be a part of a local monastery's rule. It is not something that can or should be done in a parish setting.


There is, I think, a problem in reducing confession simply to a recitation of sins, while not attending to thoughts that include the whole spectrum. If we were to take written account of our thoughts during the day, this would likely come as quite a shock as to what occupies our minds.

This is a different issue that has to do with one's own preparation for confession and could be brought up in the discussion on confession.


So what is one to do, if one wishes to avail oneself of spiritual direction?

And as usual, Owen asks the key questions. Seek out a reputable spiritual father, usually a monastic of great experience, and submit to his direction. Do not undertake this lightly however for having once set your hand to the plow it is quite tempting to abandon the task and therefore not only lose the blessing but also incur the responsibility for having disdained the spiritual counsel which you freely sought. I have a friend who traveled from the US to Russia to seek out the staretz Fr Kyrill and ask his direction in a particular matter. This person, having arrived at the monastery, could not seem to get to the elder. Noticing tht every day he was at the services in the monastery Church, this person waited for him on the path that he had to take so as to approach him. As he approached that day the petitioner realized, for the first time, that if they posed their question in faith, they would then be obligated to take the direction given. What if the elder told them to do what they did not want to do? And in that moment realized that their own faith was not strong enough to submit to the direction of the elder. Letting the elder pass by, the petitioner left Russia and returned home without seeking further the spiritual direction of the elder.

Fr David

[Rick H.]

Sorry, posted to the wrong thread. Please delete.

[Rick H.]

Dear Father David,

Thanks very much for this response. It is most helpful. I love your story when you said, ". . . you have a blessing to use your common sense!" This brings a smile and is very helpful as you add to and balance this with comments about 'departing from the norm.'

And, have you been reading my mind and sneaking around my garden? I have been trying to figure out a way to put icons out in my backyard in a way that they would be weatherproof. I have thought about glass frames like the maps are in at state parks with little roofs over them . . . and I do have three statues right now (with St. Francis on my list to get next). So what you have spoken of really hits home with me and directly applies.

Thanks again!

In Christ,
Rick

[Owen Jones]

In response to Fr. Moser's comments, the one point I would wish to make is that spiritual direction in a parish, IMHO, need not simply be a one on one meeting with the priest. In a sense, the whole life of the parish ought to be centered around this principle. For example, what about a sermon about monitoring your thoughts during the day in order to identify how much anger plays a part in our daily lives? Followed by an invitation to talk to the priest, in a non-formal confessional way about this. i.e., come and report to me what you find out and we can discuss it. And my cathedral parish has a weekly event with a dinner and speaker, sometimes the priest, sometimes not, which is a great opportunity for spiritual direction to take place. But we should also be invited and encouraged to share our thoughts with other members of the faithful, and not confine our need to spiritual direction only to the priest, because we should be providing each other with spiritual direction on a daily basis.

The problem as I see it is that spiritual direction is not "pro-active" which I think is the chic way of putting it these days. It is usually in response to some crisis that is simply the result of little things building up over time into big things. So in this sense, I stand by my complaint that you see little of this in parish life today. From the perspective of the priest, I can see where he might think that a goodly amount of his time is actually spent providing spiritual direction, but from the standpoint of the 300 plus faithful members per priest I think it is a somewhat different story, in that there are certain members of every parish who form a kind of cotery around the priest.

As a sidebar, we have a friend with a difficult son who is 22 and has been mildly autistic since birth. He is brilliant, a great conversationalist, who has developed a somewhat cynical/ironic "world view." But one can tell that he cannot make normal connections with others, and he has experienced a lot of ridicule and ostracisation from others in his life. He is being treated for depression, and he hates taking the medication, which is typical. My own view is that in 99% of the cases, depression is the result of anger that has built up over a long period of time, and so the treatment is moral and spiritual. So what should I/he do? she asked, and I said he needs to stop being angry, and the well meaning mother seemed quite surprised when I described anger as a sin. Which indeed surprised me!

So I think the problem is that our clergy take far too much for granted, for the most part, as to where his hearers are "coming from," if I may put it in those terms. One has to start from the assumption that in every conversation we need to start from scratch and assume nothing and seek a language of maximum clarity before we are going to get anywhere. For example, a young priest I liked, who actually had a number of personal problems, that perhaps, possibly made him a better priest, used to tell me that his parishioners were Protestants. I think that was an honest, sober assessment, because it meant to me that he was actually quite attuned to where they were "coming from."

There is a great character in The First Circle who is developing a language of maximum clarity whom Solzhenitsyn seemed quite taken with. He was a real life companion of S. in the Gulag, a little bit cracked in the head, but had the right idea.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

A lot though Owen has to do with the dynamics of the parish that the priest is in. I have never been around Greek or Byzantine parishes enough to know how they work but Russian and the Russian influenced churches seem in general to be following two models.

One is of a very tightly knit group in which all who wish to (sometimes though it is more that all are urged to) are involved in the decision making. The other is much more loose with a committee being the main ones in involved in the decision making. I would say that in many ways spiritual direction in our parishes follows along the dynamic already provided by these models.

Thus when I got to my Russian parish a number of years ago I had many challenges in regard to how voluntary everything was. Everything on the outward level was properly taken care of with a real sense of responsibility. But the way in which spiritual advice was such a voluntary affair took a lot of adjusting to. At first there was more than enough blame to throw at others for this. But in time I could see the wisdom in it, that if you urge the parish to be a light of Christ, and that if you are free with others, then they actually respond to spiritual matters in a better way.

We also however must not forget that spiritual advice is only one part of the total picture. Of greater effect perhaps is the way in which the parishioners as a whole deal with what is before them in an ongoing, spiritual way. This last I think is what actually sets the particular tone of each parish. Try to direct too much the strands of the threads which combine to form this particular tone and one risks damaging the whole. But of course leaving everything to itself in an individualistic fashion is just as damaging.

I think then that what is needed amidst the spiritual advice & direction is the need for the parish to assume that character in which it expresses itself as part of the Body of Christ. Spiritual direction can contribute to this. But greater than this I think is how each person within the parish acting in a Christian fashion creates an overall light within the parish the effect which can be felt by all.

In other words whoever you are in the parish provide a light so others can grow.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Owen Jones]

Common practice in the early Church, at least as I understand it, was for people to publicly stand and confess their sins before all before receiving communion. As the Church grew "successfully" there were many who were, shall we say, less trained and disciplined in this approach, so that this method was abused. for example, let's say I confess something publicly, and then it is used against me later in business, or in government or in my personal affairs. But it is this intensity of feeling that I am after. Not so much the how of getting there.

[Owen Jones]

Just to add...this intensity of feeling is for God and each other, so that if someone is in need or distress, I am compelled to help because of having shared his soul, in our mutual life or death struggle.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Reading the above posts, there is one thing that is a little unclear. Is your spiritual father always the priest of your parish church?

It is a little different here. Our spiritual father needn't be our parish priest. It is very important that your spiritual father be worthy because sadly today, there are not sd many spiritual fathers who are close to God as there were in the past. Men are lucky in that they can travel to Mt. Athos and there find a true spiritual father, as many of our friends have done.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Effie Ganatsios wrote:


Reading the above posts, there is one thing that is a little unclear. Is your spiritual father always the priest of your parish church?


No -not always. But when this is so then the priest of the parish should at least know about this or it may even need his blessing.

The difference I think over here is because our parishes tend to be so much smaller than in Russia or Greece where the connection between parish and spiritual father is much looser.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Effie Ganatsios]

Thank you, Fr. Raphael.

Effie