Different translations of the Lord's prayer

[Anna K.]

Dear all,

The polyglottal praying-thread reminded me of two things I've wondered about in the Lord's Prayer. In Finnish we have two versions of it, the older one (I think) is used by the Orthodox Church and says:

"...And forgive us our debts as we forgive those who are in debt towards us"

The Lutheran church here uses this version:
"...And forgive us our sins as we forgive those who have trespassed against us."

If I remember correctly, there are differences in the Gospels already, so was this difference from there? It seems to me that "debt" is an even vaster word than our sins, it encompasses everything, we owe everything to Him. I remember the Lutherans took the "sin"-version officially to use some years (or decades?) ago in a reformation of the services.

You who know Church Slavonic, which version is the one used there? My book with the Liturgy in Finnish on one side and Church Slavonic on the other page uses the debt-version in Finnish because it's the version of our Church, but what does the wording actually say?

The other thing that I realised only some years ago was that when in Finnish we say:
"...May Thy will happen", in English "...Thy will be done" sounds much more active or should I say synergetic?
Here too I'd be interested to hear how it is worded in Church Slavonic, or even in the original Greek, since I feel the meaning is so different.

In Christ
Anna K.

[Andreas Moran]

I can't say about the Slavonic but the Greek 'ophelimata' means 'debts'.

[Anna K.]

Thank you, Andreas,
is this word used in both Gospels Matthew and Luke? In the 1938 Finnish translation that I like to use instead of our new one (1992) Matthews uses the word "our debts" and "we forgive our debtors" but Luke uses the words "our sins" but "as we forgive our debtors".

In Christ Anna

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Anna,

There's a comparison of the two texts at this site:

www.bibletexts.com/terms/lordspr.htm

[Michael Stickles]

Anna,

The relevant Greek words are "opheilima" meaning "debt", and "hamartia" meaning "sin". The wording of your 1938 translation matches the Greek words used in Matthew and Luke, according to the texts I have.

As for "Thy will be done," the Greek in Matthew 6 literally comes out something like: "Let it be accomplished, the will of you." The verb could also be rendered "Let it happen" or "Let it come to pass" or "Let it be done", etc. (while some manuscripts include that phrase in Luke 11, it's not there in the Greek versions I have). This is a single word in Greek, in the third-person imperative form, so I think it has a stronger force in Greek than the English can easily show (not sure about Slavonic or Finnish, since I speak neither) - maybe something like "it is to be done" or "be it done".

In Christ,
Mike

[Anthony]

As Mike says, the Greek word used in the liturgical text comes from a root meaning "debt" (I believe so do the Slavonic and the Latin) - though it is worth commenting that it is sometimes used as a virtual synonym for "sinner" (Luke XIII 4, the tower of Siloam).

There is a document on the translation of the Our Father at Anastasis (http://www.ephrem.plus.com/anastasis/lord%27s_prayer.htm) which might be found helpful. I believe (though I am not certain) that it is updated from previous versions.

[Anna K.]

Thank you all for your thoughts, and the links are all useful!

"Thy will be done" says actually in Finnish, "it is to happen" or "may it happen". But not done or accomplished. It sounds like we're surrendering to His will that of course will happen. Compared to that to my ears the English version almost says "please help us also DO your will". These differences in langages are so fascinating!


In Christ,
Anna

[Chev. James R. Weber KGCT]

I sure wish we had it in Aramaic as Christ spoke it instead of Greek...

[Chev. James R. Weber KGCT]

oops forgot the text from

THE EASTERN / GREEK ORTHODOX BIBLE (EOB)

Our Father in heaven (c,)
May your Name be kept holy!
May your Kingdom come!
May your will be done on Earth, as it is in heaven (a.)
Give us day by day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us;
and lead (b) us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one (c).’

a Greek “him”
b Greek “he”
c CT omits “in heaven” and “Our” before “Father”

[Jan Sunqvist]

Please pardon my ignorance on the subject. I wish I understood some Greek.

I am not sure how significant the difference in translations is, but I have to say hearing the prayer in English and in Church Slavonic, there is a slight change in 'flavour'. For example, deliver us from 'evil' or 'the evil one' already is different to me somehow. 'Evil' seems more of a concept of 'evil' out there, where as 'the evil one' sounds like it is referring to the adversary, the tempter. Also in Church Slavonic the word is 'лука́ваго', which has, at least to me, the flavour of 'cunning', later Russian translations use the word 'Злодея', which to me, a non-Russian, sounds more like the concept of 'evil'
But I just checked the Old Church Slavonic, and the word used there is 'нєприязни' and I have no idea what it means exactly. (maybe something like 'enemy?')

Don't translations in some way reflect the understanding of the translators? I have had that impression in the past...
Also I wondered, reading parts of the Old Testament, and struggling with what exactly I was reading, what it would be like if I could read it in Hebrew...


Also I found the concept of 'hapax legomenon' quite interesting.
'a Greek phrase meaning 'a word used only once' - a word used only in Christian circles and lacking meaning outside of a eucharistic context'

This was in the context of 'Epiousios', the word supersubstantial, translated as 'daily'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiousios

[Olga]

Also in Church Slavonic the word is 'лука́ваго', which has, at least to me, the flavour of 'cunning',

You are correct; the Greek word in the Lord's Prayer is ponirou, a declension of poniros, which does mean "cunning". So the Slavonic is faithful to the Greek.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

later Russian translations use the word 'Злодея', which to me, a non-Russian, sounds more like the concept of 'evil' an evil doer


But I just checked the Old Church Slavonic, and the word used there is 'нєприязни' and I have no idea what it means exactly. (maybe something like 'enemy?') Yes -it is from the word for 'enemy'. But the form here seems to me to be the adjective: 'someone who is an enemy/adverary'.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Panayiotis Steele]

You are correct; the Greek word in the Lord's Prayer is ponirou, a declension of poniros, which does mean "cunning". So the Slavonic is faithful to the Greek.

Poniros has this primary meaning today, but back then, its primary meaning was, indeed, "evil" [singluar, nominative, masculine]. At least, according to my old Ancient Greek professor. :)

[Dova Nisavic]

"...And forgive us our debts as we forgive those who are in debt towards us"

The Lutheran church here uses this version:
"...And forgive us our sins as we forgive those who have trespassed against us."

Church Slavonic use equally both versions.