The Romanian Church on the issue of abortion

[M. Partyka]

A Catholic co-worker who periodically tries to lure me into Catholicism sent me this link:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jun/08062610.html

What's up with this?

[Herman Blaydoe]

A Catholic co-worker who periodically tries to lure me into Catholicism sent me this link:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jun/08062610.html

What's up with this?

I think a big part of "what's up" is media distortion of what the Church is actually saying. Sounds like the Church of Romania is saying that people must make moral decisions for themselves, be they right or wrong. I can only hope that someone is providing counseling on non-abortive alternatives. Otherwise it is simply evidence of how pernicious abortion propaganda has become world-wide.

Catholicism has its own problems to worry about, pointing fingers proves nothing.

[M. Partyka]

Sounds like the Church of Romania is saying that people must make moral decisions for themselves, be they right or wrong.Let's take a closer look, though:


A spokesman for the Romanian Orthodox Church declined to defend the right to life of the unborn child in the case of an 11-year-old girl who was reportedly raped by her 19-year-old uncle. Although the Orthodox Church regards abortion as a crime, this is "an exceptional situation, which should be treated in an exceptional manner," said spokesman Constantin Stoica. He added that "the family is the only one to make this decision."What is "exceptional" here? The youth of the girl? The fact that the child was conceived through incestuous rape? What bearing does either of these facets of the case have on the facts that there is a living child growing inside the victim now and the child's grandmother is planning to make another victim out of it (and, one might say, victimize her daughter a second time by making her a party to murder)? I can understand if the Church were to say, "Naturally, we'd prefer that the baby be allowed to live, but we don't make our parishioners' decisions for them." Nevertheless, ought there not to be ecclesiastical [if that's the right word] penalties -- maybe not for the 11-year-old, but at least for the 11-year-old's mother -- should the option of abortion be chosen? Has the Romanian Church lost its spine?

[Marian S.]

Despite my miserable and very poor health state, I must gather my strength and testify.

A lot of words, despite of one source of information. Which does not reveal the correct situation.

Just read here and discern. It is from the official site of the Romanian Orthodox Church. The statement is from the Metropolitanate of Moldova and Bucovina, to which belongs the county where that girl lives.

The Metropolitanate of Moldavia and Bukovina Has and Will Grant the Necessary Support to the Pregnant 11-Year-Old from Neamt http://www.basilica.ro/_layouts/images/spacer.gif 

The Metropolitanate of Moldavia and Bukovina, faithful to the principles of Christian faith concerning the sustenance and protection of human life, has granted and will grant further all the necessary support, both spiritual and material, to the 11-year-old girl who is pregnant.

Since the moment when the minor was admitted to the Cuza Voda Maternity Hospital in Iasi, the case was brought to the attention of the Church. Firstly, the charitable priest at the institution has granted spiritual counseling to both the girl and her family. After her return home, the case was taken over by the Roznov protopresbyterate, respectively by the Piatra Soimului II parish, to which the family of the girl belongs.

Through these institutions, the leadership of the Metropolitanate of Moldavia and Bukovina has sent word to the family that if it will not abort the pregnancy, the Metropolitanate will support in full all the expenses incurred by the child's birth. After this moment, the Metropolitanate of Moldavia and Bukovina will financially support the expenses of the child's raising within the family.

In the case in which the family does not want to raise the baby, the Metropolitanate of Moldavia and Bukovina will make sure he will be taken care of by the appropriate institutions, covering all the expenses and making sure appropriate education will be available to the child.

Furthermore, if the family gives up the plan to send the minor girl to U.K. for an abortion to be performed there, the Metropolitanate of Moldavia and Bukovina will cover all expenses already made with the trip's arrangements.

THE PRESS BUREAU OF THE METROPOLITANATE OF MOLDAVIA AND BUKOVINA

source: http://www.basilica.ro/en/news/the_metropolitanate_of_moldavia_and_bukovina_has_a nd_will_grant_the_necessary_support_to_the_pregnan t_11_year_old_from_neamt_.html

Church is fully against of any abortion. That spokesman has expressed in a bad manner and however the Church criticized him.

If we speak of spine, then all the eyes look to 8th and 9th of July, when the Holy Synod will take in discussion the deed of Metropolitan Nicolae Corneanu, who partook from then and of the Papal nuncio in Romania, despite of any Orthodox canons, breaking any obedience.

God have mercy upon all the souls. Also may Christ look with mercy to me and save my life. Amin.

[Owen Jones]

The Orthodox Church is very weak, in fact missing in action, on the abortion issue.

[Herman Blaydoe]

interesting that CNN tells a rather different story, about how the Church was trying to get them to keep the child. It is the government that is allowing the abortion to proceed. I have to wonder how "official" that so-called spokesperson really was.

[Marian S.]

http://www.basilica.ro/en/news/the_metropolitanate_of_moldavia_and_bukovina_has_a nd_will_grant_the_necessary_support_to_the_pregnan t_11_year_old_from_neamt_.html

[Effie Ganatsios]

I can't provide a link for the following because I accidentally closed the window. But it was from one of the Orthodox sites I searched.


"Eastern Orthodox
The Eastern Orthodox Church believes that life begins at conception, and that abortion (including the use of abortifacient drugs) is the taking of a human life. However, there are exceptions. The Basis of the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church states that while abortion can never be seen as morally neutral, in some cases economy can be used:

In case of a direct threat to the life of a mother if her pregnancy continues, especially if she has other children, it is recommended to be lenient in the pastoral practice. The woman who interrupted pregnancy in this situation shall not be excluded from the Eucharistic communion with the Church provided that she has fulfilled the canon of Penance assigned by the priest who takes her confession.[8]

The document also acknowledges that abortions often are a result of poverty and helplessness and that the Church and society should "work out effective measures to protect motherhood."

In the Eastern Orthodox and Greek-Catholic Churches and in the teaching of the Church Fathers which undergirds the theology of those Churches, economy or oeconomy (Greek: οικονόμια, economia ) has several meanings.[1] The basic meaning of the word is "handling" or disposition" or "management" of a thing, usually assuming or implying good or prudent handling (as opposed to poor handling) of the matter at hand.

As such, the word "economy", and the concept attaching to it, are utilized especially with regard to two types of "handling": (a) divine economy, that is, God's "handling" or "management" of the fallen state of the world and of mankind -- the arrangements he made in order to bring about man's salvation after the fall; and (b) what might be termed pastoral economy (or) ecclesiastical economy, that is, the Church's "handling" or "management" of various pastoral and disciplinary questions, problems, and issues that have arisen through the centuries of Church history."


I couldn't find anything concerning abortion when the pregnancy is the result of rape - especially the rape of children as in this case.

I have always believed that rape falls under the category of "unusual circumstances" where economy is needed, but, as I said, I couldn't find anything official to support this.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Let's take a closer look, though:

What is "exceptional" here? The youth of the girl? The fact that the child was conceived through incestuous rape? What bearing does either of these facets of the case have on the facts that there is a living child growing inside the victim now and the child's grandmother is planning to make another victim out of it (and, one might say, victimize her daughter a second time by making her a party to murder)? I can understand if the Church were to say, "Naturally, we'd prefer that the baby be allowed to live, but we don't make our parishioners' decisions for them." Nevertheless, ought there not to be ecclesiastical [if that's the right word] penalties -- maybe not for the 11-year-old, but at least for the 11-year-old's mother -- should the option of abortion be chosen? Has the Romanian Church lost its spine?

I can't help thinking of this 11 year old girl and what this all means to her.

First she was raped by a family member. She hid the rape and then found that she was pregnant. Just think, 11 years old - one traumatic event after the other. Has she been examined by a psychiatrist and is she being helped in any way?

Dear Lady Theotokos, take this little angel under your cape and protect her and her unborn baby who is not to blame for anything.

Everyone at school is talking about her and sneering - I read this in a newspaper report - and her "shame" or what she considers to be her shame is publicly known. Where were her parents in all this, why was it made public, why was their young daughter subjected to this in addition to all she had already been through?

Is her little 11 year old body and mind capable of carrying this baby to full term, giving birth and then what? Keeping the baby or giving it up for adoption.

A few years ago I read that, genetically, incest between an uncle and niece is a lot more dangerous to any child that results, than it is even between 1st cousins. So the danger of an abnormal foetus is very real.

What a dilemma! A true Solomon is needed here.

God give wisdom to all those involved in this decision.

[Olga]

.... and what does society or the Church have to say about the rapist? He's the one "missing in action", both literally and figuratively. Forgive my anger, but I seethe (putting it VERY mildly) when horrific cases like this come to light, and nary a word is said about the perpetrators. Are they ever subjected to the same "shame" or opprobrium that their victims unjustly bear, and often bear for the rest of their lives?

[Misha]

Dear Olga we ,all,are under an intense and continuous bombardment of pornographic material through tv,magazines,newspapers,internet etc.

Western "civilization" has already made the human sexuality a profitable business.It's in the second place just after drug's dealing.

Our modern way of life produces rapists,paedophils,gays etc

[Marianthy]

It could be very dangerous for an 11 year old child to carry a baby to term and then birth it. As many women on this board know, it is not an easy process.

It is not for me to judge the decisions of this family. The only thing I can do is pray for both the unbrn child, and the child that carries it within her womb.

Marianthy

[Marian S.]

http://www.basilica.ro/en/news/the_metropolitanate_of_moldavia_and_bukovina_has_a nd_will_grant_the_necessary_support_to_the_pregnan t_11_year_old_from_neamt_.html

[Kosta]

A Catholic co-worker who periodically tries to lure me into Catholicism sent me this link:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jun/08062610.html

What's up with this?

What exactly about the article?

Romania has the higest rate of abortion in the western world (and one of the highest in the entire planet) most have been de-sensitized in that nation. Ive heard estimates that 80 percent of Romanian women have had an abortion. Its tougher to forbid it when the person is an 11 year old girl who was raped by an uncle, this is a nation where the majority of abortions are done to space out births! . The article states that 20 different Orthodox groups dont want her to get the abortion, while the Church has no comment, all in all i think its a good response.

[M. Partyka]

http://www.basilica.ro/en/news/the_metropolitanate_of_moldavia_and_bukovina_has_a nd_will_grant_the_necessary_support_to_the_pregnan t_11_year_old_from_neamt_.htmlMarian,

Thanks for the link. I have passed it on to the Catholic who sent me the news article.

[M. Partyka]

Romania has the higest rate of abortion in the western world (and one of the highest in the entire planet) most have been de-sensitized in that nation. Ive heard estimates that 80 percent of Romanian women have had an abortion....this is a nation where the majority of abortions are done to space out births!Has Romania ever heard of birth control?

[Moses Ibrahim]

Please forgive this quick and not-directed-to-anyone-in-particular response. I just wanted to state generally that each case (concerning the sins or instances a person finds himself in) is different and the spiritual guidance and economia that is given is always different. It just seems to us human beings that we want some legalistic rule to follow or want the Church to stamp out a certain penance or punishment every time a person comes in with a particular sin (at least, sadly, this is what I seem to think at times). But what if the girl has physical ailments as well, or cannot withstand much blood loss? There are many spiritual as well as physical questions that must be asked before a decision on abortion be made final? It would certainly be much better if the baby is not aborted (if we were to assume that 11 year old girl would not die while giving birth and result in the baby dying as well, although that would be very good grounds to die a martyr should the girl choose so) since taking life is against the teachings of our Holy Church. Excuse what I had to say and it was not directed to anyone, i guess i just needed to rant a bit, so please for any advice ask the Priests on this forum.

[M. Partyka]

...what if the girl has physical ailments as well, or cannot withstand much blood loss?...It would certainly be much better if the baby is not aborted (if we were to assume that 11 year old girl would not die while giving birth and result in the baby dying as well...) since taking life is against the teachings of our Holy Church.Absolutely right: We're making the assumption that there would be no medical difficulties with the 11-year-old's giving birth, and perhaps we shouldn't, but I don't think we automatically should, either, given the lack of information (which, as another poster rightly pointed out, we really don't need to be privy to). If we were to know beyond a doubt that the baby wouldn't live to term, then I would not oppose an abortion, but so often abortion is put forward as an option for alleviating emotional damage to the mother -- it's really the only case I've ever heard of in which a person is advised by another, "If you kill this human being, you'll feel better." I remember reading an article in which one woman proudly noted her accomplishments as a lawyer and said, "I never could have done this had I not gotten an abortion." My mind flashed on a scene, as if from a play, in which the devil says to a woman, "I can give you success and accomplishments. All you have to do is kill your child."

[Olga]

Dear Olga we ,all,are under an intense and continuous bombardment of pornographic material through tv,magazines,newspapers,internet etc.

Western "civilization" has already made the human sexuality a profitable business.It's in the second place just after drug's dealing.

Our modern way of life produces rapists,paedophils,gays etc

Misha, such behaviours have existed for thousands of years, they are not a "new" or "modern" phenomenon. A reasonable grasp of history will show this. The point of my earlier post was to highlight the persistent view in many countries and cultures of shaming rape victims, while nothing is said about those who commit the rape.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Olga, such behaviour might have existed in the past, the difference now is that our children are exposed to this type of behaviour daily. No matter how careful you are of what your children watch, they will almost certainly watch something on TV that is related to perverse sexual behaviour.

The solution might be to throw the TV set out but a stroll around any city or town will again subject your children to pictures of this type of behaviour. The kiosks in Greece advertise all their magazines by pinning them to the outside walls of their kiosks and children of course cannot avoid seeing what they should not be seeing.

Because of the content of some TV programmes and magazines that are difficult to avoid, some young people have come to regard certain types of perverse sexual behaviour as almost normal, especially if they have not had a proper upbringing in their own homes.

And even those who don't regard this behaviour as abnormal, are certainly more accepting of it than our parents and grandparents were.

Effie

I believe that one thing leads to another. Permitting a small sin might result in a bigger one. Don't the Fathers tell us this?

[Kosta]

Has Romania ever heard of birth control?

If you google the issue on abortion in Romania, you will find that contraception has lowered the abortion rates in recent years, unfortunately they still have the highest in the world.

[Marianthy]

I have to agree with both Effie and Olga on this issue. Rape and the sexual subjugation of women is not a new phenomenon, but it more avaiable today as our children are exposed to all sorts of media that show an "inferiority" of women.

That being said...My main concern with the initial issue is that of an 11 year old child carrying another child to term. It is extremely physically demanding and I wonder if it would even be safe for her to do so. I would assume that she would not carry to term, that the child would be born preterm, etc. etc. I would also assume that there would be dire ramifications on the 11 year old's health.

What a sad situation. It is my hope that a satisfactory solution within the eyes of God is found. May we all pray that the family be guided by the Holy Spirit in a way where all will be spared.

Marianthy

[Andreas Moran]

The BBC reported last Thursday that the girl is now in London, and the Marie Stopes clinic is arranging for her to have an abortion at an undisclosed London hospital.

[Kusanagi]

A Catholic co-worker who periodically tries to lure me into Catholicism sent me this link:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jun/08062610.html

What's up with this?

Actually if you read the news in Romanian the views from the church was that the church tried to persuade the girl as much as possible to not have an abortion but left the final decision to the girl who supposedly came to the UK to have the abortion some say she went and had it done back in Romania in the end. The priest even went as far as to say have the child and they will take the child into a monastery.