Politics, abortion, and communion

[Shawn Lazar]

I was reading an article, available online, entitled "Can Catholics Who Vote for Obama Still Receive Communion?" by John-Henry Westen. The point is that Catholics cannot in good conscience vote for the Democratic candidate and still take the Eucharist, because of his stance on abortion. To support him would be to formally cooperate with the evil of abortion. However, if there is a "proportionate" reason for so voting it may be acceptable.

Naturally, the article got me thinking: Can Orthodox who vote for Obama still receive communion?

Or more generally, do we draw the same kind of connections between our political stances, and worthiness to receive Communion?

I only know of a handful of Orthodox ethicists, so I'm not sure if these kinds of questions have been explored by current thinkers, or the Church Fathers.

~Shawn

[Effie Ganatsios]

Shawn, I can't say anything about American politics but I remember reading that Elder Paisios advised us to vote for politicians that live their lives as Christians and not those who only pretend to.

We cannot of course be sure just what politicians believe, but as far as possible we need to be cautious, listen carefully to what they say, check their voting history (if they have one), and then decide whether they are the kind of men that we need.

Ordinarily the church cannot interfere in politics and I believe that that would include deciding on whether or not a person can receive communion depending on who he voted for.

Wouldn't this have more to do with an individual's conscience?

Effie

[James Blackstock]

Dear Effie:

I think you are right! One must be lead by their own conscience. I know that some Orthodox abstain from voting for this very reason. Frankly, I think that the cards are stacked against those who want to do the right thing. As a young man, I was proud of my government and I believed that it was truly Government of the people, by the people, and for the people. We were given a Constitutional Republic by the framers of our constitution, but at the same time we were warned...."if you can keep it!" The US is now governed by Executive order, by an Oligarchy, not by the people. The votes that matter are the Electoral College. These are the votes that elevate those who are selected by the Oligarchy to office. The Constitution is pretty much out the window! Sadly, I see a parallel in the Church! The Canons were given to us as channel markers, safety buoys, to keep us from running ashore, but through "Executive Order" we can now explore the eddies and the shallows. God help us! At least we still have Dogma! Thanks be to God. I believe that or conscience is a buoy given to us by God.

INXC,
Seraphim

[Eric Peterson]

I think it would be a serious cause for concern if an Orthodox priest or bishop were to say that those who vote for a particular candidate excommunicate themselves. It would be unprecedented. I could be wrong (as I was about the execution of heretics--the Byzantines did it, too), but I don't know of any time a Patriarch tried to foment revolution against an emperor, or say that those who support such and such an emperor or general or whatever cannot receive communion. And a lot of our emperors, even amongst the saints, were pretty ruthless, heavy handed men who interfered in Church affairs.

[Ryan]

The article might make sense if abortion were the only issue Christians had to worry about, and if there were any likelihood that the Republican candidate would do something about it. Neither of these are the case. I'm assuming Mr. Westen is not only pro-life, but in favor of indefinite war, prolonged fossil fuel dependency, "enhanced interrogation techniques", and tax cuts for the wealthy. Are these Christian values? As for McCain, I would be really surprised if he made any serious moves against abortion in the US, since he is trying to appear more 'moderate' than Bush, who hardly did anything about it himself. The ideologies defined as 'liberal' and 'conservative' in the United States are both anti-Christian (and 'moderate' simply means status quo). As my priest put it succinctly, 'one wants war, the other one wants abortion'. Actually, behind all the campaign promises, I doubt either candidate will do things very differently.

[Eric Peterson]

I think it represents a classic Western approach to things, visible in Catholic and Evangelical spheres. Want change? Badger either the leaders or the people to do something about it. It's a rather grotesque model, proven by history to be highly temporary and to backfire quite easily. One would think a lesson would have been learned by now. Here are some examples:

The Catholic Crusades tried to win back the Holy Land for Christ. Now, the area is more overtly Muslim than it was then.

The Protestant anti-alcohol movement sought to fight alcoholism and alcohol-related vice with a constitutional ban. They got an amendment passed, meanwhile the liquor consumption and alcohol-related crime continued. Later, the amendment was repealed. And the whole movement faded.

I think the same will happen with a movement for a constitutional ban on abortion or gay marriage in America. Maybe enough votes will be gotten for an amendment, but what about later? It can always be repealed. Lasting change of behavior or values is impossible to obtain through legislation. Hearts and minds have to be changed. Politics and protests just polarize people further, make the issue into something completely different. In other words, political efforts will backfire.

[Shawn Lazar]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

(By mentioning the article I was by no means endorsing any US candidate. Indeed, I think either choice will be disastrous for my American brethren. And I doubt very much whether the author of the article would fit comfortably in the war camp espoused by many US politicians, for the simple reason that the Vatican has been vocally opposed to the most recent US led wars.)

I'm intrigued by the idea that voting is a matter of conscience for each Orthodox believer. While I'm sure that's partially true, would that mean voting is an entirely private matter, rather than a public one? And since politics is so deeply entrenched in daily life, often involving matters of life, death and morality (think of the millions of babies that have been killed in the womb, or civilians killed during war), shouldn't there be a more concrete relationship between our political standpoint and our worthiness to take communion? And if so, is there a hierarchy of sins/values, that should guide that way Orthodox people vote? For instance, the article I mentioned suggests that abortion is a non-negotiable evil that trumps any other good a politician might support.


And coming back to being denied communion... I seem to have a fuzzy memory that St. Ambrose once denied communion to an emperor because of his politics. However, I need to check on that.

~Shawn

[Paul Cowan]

I recall someone prophysing when George W. was elected that he would be the las Christian president the US would have. Whether you like the way the war progressed or not, he is a God fearing man. You try doing his job.

Pick the lesser of two evils in the upcoming race? is still to pick evil. I read Russia will be the place to flea to when the end times comes. My passport is sitting beside me and y bag is by the door. How will I vote? for the lesser of two evils.

Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

Paul, after reading the prophesies of St. Kosmas of Aitolia, if my memory serves me, Russia is the last place I would go. This country will be fighting on two fronts, on its west flank, NATO and on its east, the US.

Greece will not be a good place to be either. How about Australia?

St. Kosmas' nameday is coming up. It is on the 24th of August. He was hung by the Muslims in Ioannina, a city in Epirus, Greece.

He made a lot of specific predictions concerning the end of the Turkish occupation of Greece.

One comment I really like :

"They will ask for your rifles. Retain two. Give one and keep the other. A single rifle will save a hundred souls."

A few years ago my son tried to teach me to fire his hunting rifle. It was hopeless. In the end he told me to forget about it because by the time I was ready to fire I would be dead if I were ever attacked...........

It is illegal to have handguns in Greece without a special license. Of course this was before all the Albanians brought in their Kalashnikovs.
I doubt they have licenses.

Apparently the best defence weapon for a home owner whose house is being attacked is a small fire extinguisher.

[Paul Cowan]

Paul, after reading the prophesies of St. Kosmas of Aitolia, if my memory serves me, Russia is the last place I would go. This country will be fighting on two fronts, on its west flank, NATO and on its east, the US.

Greece will not be a good place to be either. How about Australia?

I dare say there will be no safe place for any Christian to live. I was thinking Russia because of its Orthodoxy. Perhaps the south pole? JUst as well to die of freezing than beheading.

[Angela V.]

I am not really into politics, but at the moment Kevin Rudd seems to be doing okay. As far as I can see he is a religious man. Thank God!

Angela

[Ryan]

Whether you like the way the war progressed or not, he is a God fearing man.

Well, he certainly would like us to think so. As would Ahmadinejad, Putin, etc.



You try doing his job.

I'm sure being any sort of politician isn't easy, but that doesn't give them a license to have a blatant disregard for human life or lead us toward World War III.

[Paul Cowan]

I don't think the moderators will allow us to continue this discussion, but there have been several "wars to end all wars". The difference in this and others is there has been fewer deaths here than in past wars. See WWI and WWII death tolls or just look at the drunk driving records of the US just for 1 year. There is a war we need to engage in.

Second is the media coverage. Who determines the good guys versus the bad guys other than the media. I have family in the military. We are not being told the truth by our media outlets. We are being told half truths and and then only from a slanted point of view. The liberal media has its own agenda and it is not going to tell us the truth on the ground.

Death is a horrible thing. All will agree. If both sides will stop shooting then both sides will stop shooting. Until then, I don't want to see another plane being flown into a building. Or worse. What would happen if just one of the grand lakes were poisoned with a germ? This entire continent would die within weeks if not days. Or perhaps we should allow al'qaida the time and ability to produce dirty bombs or clean bombs to use on their targets. I believe those are ALL non-muslims targets.

Who draws the line in the sand? and who will stand behind it? or do we just keep drawing more and more lines saying, now I said don't do that anymore. why did you do it again? and again and again? You don't treat a child that way. You tell it the rules of the house and they obey or they are reprimanded. The UN is a useless entity. No governement has ever obeyed them when it comes to standing down from hostility.

Yes, lets stop the war. Let's secure our borders and become seclusionists. what then? they can still kill us with a single germ. Do you really think pulling out of the area will get them to stop killing people outside their borders? They are in a Holy war. They will not stop killing until all the infidels (you and me) are dead. we don't like to hear about another soldier dying needlessly. Either he dies there with honor, or we die here in disgrace.

War is not pretty. It was never meant to be. We are a society thriving on knowledge. Knowledge we don't need to have readily accessible to us every minute of every day. It is as if we are "there". Well, we are not. Everything the media "allows" us to see is edited. When has there ever been a totally objective report given. There is not a book written since the beginning of time that was not slanted towards the authors point of view to some degree. Some more so than others. Media is no different.

Let the kids fighting, ALL of them, not just the ones the media picks out who are disgruntled tell us the story. I have a friend who just came back from there. The people are desperate for us to be there to help them. They are helping us help them. Too bad our own citizens cannot do the same. We are such a purist judgemental society. Perhaps we need the war to come on our soil for us to wake up and see we are in harms way. Oh, wait a minute, it already did almost 7 years ago. Let's not keep reminding ourselves about this as it makes us 'feel' bad. Lets see the slanted injustices happening to other people and focus our attention over there instead.

The storm is coming. It will blow over this country and wipe it off the face of the earth. There will be no place to hide and no media to save us.

I have said my piece. I will not continue. I would vote for this president if he were able to run again.

Paul

[Herman Blaydoe]

Paul reminds us that we do need to stay on-topic within the goals of this forum. Rather than discuss the ideologies, religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of any specific candidate, let us continue to discuss what the Fathers of the Church have written on the subject, or the historical position that the Church has taken in history to help us decide what might be appropriate for us as Orthodox Christians in the future.

Herman the sub-moderator

[Andreas Moran]

Paul, after reading the prophesies of St. Kosmas of Aitolia, if my memory serves me, Russia is the last place I would go. This country will be fighting on two fronts, on its west flank, NATO and on its east, the US.


I was thinking Russia because of its Orthodoxy.

By Herman's leave, I would just mention that 20th century Russian elders have said that Russia will be only country not to fall under the sway of Antichrist because it has already had its Golgotha, and indeed the only person Antichrist will be afraid of will be the ruler of Russia. I'm assuming by then that Russians will have recovered their Orthodox faith in its fulness which cannot be said of the present.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Andreas, I have seen Putin in Orthodox churches, praying and appearing to be sincere. Of course, this might all be an act - politicians being what they are - but I hope that he is a religious person. He has certainly done a lot for Russia, especially in contrast to Yeltsin who sold just about whatever he could lay his hands on to foreign companies and only looked out for himself.

It is very hard to know the truth where politicians are concerned. A tree is known by its fruit and we should take note of the actions of politicians and the results thereof, and not their words. Words are cheap.

Returning to the original message in this thread I believe that how and why we vote the way we decide to is very personal. If we want to discuss it with our spiritual father, OK, but didn't Jesus say "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." (Matthew 22:17-21

[Andreas Moran]

Russians generally believe Putin is sincere in his faith. Last Christmas, we happened to be at Sretensky monastery in Moscow and a couple of discreet black cars were there with heavy security. It is known Putin's spiritual father is Archimandrite Tikhon, hegoumen of Sretensky, so we assumed Putin was visiting. Being a faithful Orthodox Christian didn't make him a perfect president. He is admired for recovering Russia's self respect and reversing some of the western-inspired economic disaster of the Yeltsin years, but he has done very well for himself and is thought to be as rich as any oligarch but just more discreet about it. He has also failed to address many popular gievances such as the endemic corruption at all levels, the low salaries of public sector employees (including doctors and academics), the scandalously low pensions of those now retired who served the Soviet state all their lives, the collapse of state health provision, and the neglect of the provinces. They now have Medvedev. The Patriarch was present at his investiture as president, and Medvedev and his wife attended a service of blessing for his presidency in the Cathedral of the Dormition in the Kremlin. Recently, he attended a service in Christ the Saviour Cathedral to commemorate the 90th anniversary of the restoration of the Patriarchate. Both the Patriarch and Medvedev gave speeches. My wife watched this and wasn't impressed: 'just like Soviet times', she said. 'Set piece speeches and fine words, but what we need is action to make the country fit to live in for all the people and not a playground for the corrupt and powerful'. (She didn't mean by that that there ought to be western-style democracy in Russia; few Russians want that and deeply resent American and British insistance that they should have it.) I pointed out that that's what politicians are like everywhere. As for Christian leaders not always following Christian motives, I think of Blair's bombing of Christian Serbia at Easter time in support of islamic terrorists in Kosovo who support Bin Laden.

[Herman Blaydoe]

There are plenty of places to discuss politics and preferences, this is not one of them! Let's try to stay focussed on an Orthodox phronema towards political choices and involvement. The discussion about Putin, as long as it does not go too far, is relevant since he professes to be an Orthodox Christian and supporter of the Church and is a recognized Orthodox "ruler".

I wonder, if a coronation can be a (minor?) sacrament, could the investiture of an Orthodox President of an Orthodox country be one as well?

Herman the sub-moderator

[M.C. Steenberg]

If voting for a president who is 'pro-abortion' were cause for excommunication on account of the fact that the taking of a human life is wrong, then voting for a president who is 'pro-death-penalty' would also be cause for excommunication on the same ground -- thus effectively requiring the excommunication of anyone in the USA who's voted for either a democrat or a republican.

Let's not pick-and-choose which sins to become politically indignant about. The world is filled with sin, and politics deals with this world in its own way. To pick a politician as holy because he or she abstains from one sin, while departing from the faith in dozens of others -- this is to go very quickly down a very dangerous road that ultimately leads to delusion and self-will in judgement.

.... all part of the reason focusing on the fathers gives us some hope!

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Andreas Moran]

I wonder, if a coronation can be a (minor?) sacrament, could the investiture of an Orthodox President of an Orthodox country be one as well?

Herman the sub-moderator

The British coronation service - Orthodox in its origin and in use for Orthodox sovereigns up to (arguably) Harold II, but not Orthodox in its application since the crowning of William I - involves an elaborate ritual which includes anointing the sovereign with Holy Chrism. I don't know the wording but since Chrism is used I suppose there is some calling upon the Holy Spirit. A mere service of blessing without more for the new president of Russia would not be a sacrament, even a minor one, I would have thought.

[Janice Chadwick]

If voting for a president who is 'pro-abortion' were cause for excommunication on account of the fact that the taking of a human life is wrong, then voting for a president who is 'pro-death-penalty' would also be cause for excommunication on the same ground -- thus effectively requiring the excommunication of anyone in the USA who's voted for either a democrat or a republican.

Let's not pick-and-choose which sins to become politically indignant about. The world is filled with sin, and politics deals with this world in its own way. To pick a politician as holy because he or she abstains from one sin, while departing from the faith in dozens of others -- this is to go very quickly down a very dangerous road that ultimately leads to delusion and self-will in judgement.

.... all part of the reason focusing on the fathers gives us some hope!

INXC, Dcn Matthew

You said it very well. I had to vote for my friend for President last election, since I couldn't vote for one due to his stand on abortion and couldn't vote for other since he supports the death penalty and seems to be extremely fond of war (since that always seems to be his first choice--it went totally against my conscience to vote for him either). I wish we had a candidate that was pro-life across the board.

The unborn and young, innocent children (as well as many other innocent people) are killed in war, and that can't be a better way to die than being aborted. Both ways are evil and sinful. War should not be the first option to take. Our enemies are humans who are loved by God as much as He loves us. He may not like their religion, but if we kill them, they won't have an opportunity to repent and turn to Christ.

[Father David Moser]

Dear all,

I have just deleted a number of posts which are outside the scope of the forum. These posts deal with a specific candidate in the US presidential election and while he brings some interesting perspective to the table, this is not within the scope of Orthodoxy in its patristic, liturgical and monastic expression.

For those interested in this line of discussion, I would suggest that the discussion explore the difficulty of making decisions based not on a "litmus test" issue but upon the entire spectrum of a candidate's position in which some issues are "Orthodox-friendly" and others are not (which I think the move towards a non-mainstream/alternative candidate is one expression).

Fr David Moser

[Effie Ganatsios]

As for Christian leaders not always following Christian motives, I think of Blair's bombing of Christian Serbia at Easter time in support of islamic terrorists in Kosovo who support Bin Laden.

This bombing on Good Friday is still unbelievable. I feel really sad whenever I think of it. Not just because of the bombing itself but of the fact that it is an indication of the lack of respect for religion.

I would say this if Muslims were bombed on one of their holy days as well.

We should respect all religions.

[Antonios]

There is an interesting article written by Dr. Clark Carlton, author of The Faith book series as well as several good essays and articles around the net, and podcaster for Ancient Faith Radio who has sent an open letter to fellow Orthodox Christians about the presidential election of 2008. He does an excellent job in discussing ancient Orthodox history with regards to politics.

The title of the letter is "Orthodox Christians and the Presidential Election of 2008" and can be found here (http://strannik.com/geekpilgrim/files/clark_carlton_open_letter.pdf).

[Ryan]

In this article, Carlton tries to make a connection between the needs of the Orthodox Church in the US with a liberal free market ideology. I can agree on certain points about foreign policy that touch on Christians in Palestine, Serbia, etc., and also the need for less government interference in certain areas that affect a church's ability to fulfill its social mission. Aside from that, I don't think Carlton makes the connection very well, and most of his reasoning seems secular to me. Moreover, 'free market capitalism' is an unattainable pipe dream, just as much as anarchism and 'true communism.'

[Andreas Moran]

Well, the Russians recently voted in their new president (though with no effective challenger) and Americans are in the midst of their presidential election. We in the UK have a prime minister nobody had the chance to vote for. If Medvedev had taken over from Putin in the same way Brown took over from Blair, the western media would have screamed about the lack of democracy.