Correct order of reading Matins/Vespers

[Ioannis Christodoulou]

Would there be anyone willing to help me with reading Matins and Vespers Correctly?

I have slowly purchased a small Liturgical Library, but am having difficulty in the order of hymns. I’m currently in the process of purchasing a scanner, to simplify things.
The readings would be the new (Julian) calendar, and follow the Greek Typikon. This would be an incorporation of The Great Horologion, Octoechos, Pentecostarion, Triodion and Menaion, for the daily reading of Vespers & Matins of 2009. The first Step would be to learn how to read the prayers correctly.

Thanks Ioannis

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Probably the best way to learn about this is to begin with the (a) specific service you are interested in doing. For example you may have been trying to read yesterday's Vespers or want to know what to do for Vespers next Monday.

Start this way and I'm sure there will be people here willing to help.

A very important principle to keep in mind about learning how to read the services is that a person has to go step by step. Learning from others by watching used to be the traditional method as the services are so complex in structure. But the 'mystical circle' has been broken in the past century so in most places this is no longer possible. Instead from priest to reader to simple laymen we all must learn on our own to an extent rarely or not seen before.

Thus it can all appear too challenging to even take up. However if we begin, and reach out for help, after a year or two we begin to understand what we are dealing with and how to go about things in a proper way.

Keep reaching out for advice and you will get the help you need.

In Christ- Fr Raphael





Would there be anyone willing to help me with reading Matins and Vespers Correctly?

I have slowly purchased a small Liturgical Library, but am having difficulty in the order of hymns. I’m currently in the process of purchasing a scanner, to simplify things.
The readings would be the new (Julian) calendar, and follow the Greek Typikon. This would be an incorporation of The Great Horologion, Octoechos, Pentecostarion, Triodion and Menaion, for the daily reading of Vespers & Matins of 2009. The first Step would be to learn how to read the prayers correctly.

Thanks Ioannis

[Kris]

I don't have the link, but my priest told me the Ecumenical Patriarchate publishes the entire services (in Greek) somewhere on their website. I assume it's just for Sundays, but it would be worth checking out if you're wondering about the order of all the different components.

[Ioannis Christodoulou]

I don't have the link, but my priest told me the Ecumenical Patriarchate publishes the entire services (in Greek) somewhere on their website. I assume it's just for Sundays, but it would be worth checking out if you're wondering about the order of all the different components.

Unfortunately I didn’t have the privilege of learning Greek when growing up, so everything has to be done in English. I have most of the information needed. Once I purchase the scanner things should start to work out. Guess I have been a little ambitious in my early posting. But with Gods help anything is possible.

[Anthony]

There is a fair amount of information in English on Fr Ephrem Lash's website (http://www.ephrem.plus.com/anastasis/liturgic.htm) - basically texts, but also containing some notes on what goes where.

[Julia Hayes]

The following site has a lot of useful links about the Typikon and how to put the services together:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Typicon

[Anthony Stokes]

Would there be anyone willing to help me with reading Matins and Vespers Correctly?

I have slowly purchased a small Liturgical Library, but am having difficulty in the order of hymns. I’m currently in the process of purchasing a scanner, to simplify things.
The readings would be the new (Julian) calendar, and follow the Greek Typikon. This would be an incorporation of The Great Horologion, Octoechos, Pentecostarion, Triodion and Menaion, for the daily reading of Vespers & Matins of 2009. The first Step would be to learn how to read the prayers correctly.

Thanks Ioannis

I'm about to start teaching a class in this subject at church. I will have outlines and everything available that I can provide you if you want them. Putting together services is a hobby of mine.

Subdeacon Anthony

[Ioannis Christodoulou]

I'm about to start teaching a class in this subject at church. I will have outlines and everything available that I can provide you if you want them. Putting together services is a hobby of mine.

Subdeacon Anthony

I would be very grateful for this information. Ioannis

[Ioannis Christodoulou]

There is a fair amount of information in English on Fr Ephrem Lash's website (http://www.ephrem.plus.com/anastasis/liturgic.htm) - basically texts, but also containing some notes on what goes where.

Thank you. Ioannis

[Ioannis Christodoulou]

The following site has a lot of useful links about the Typikon and how to put the services together:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Typicon

Thanks Julia, Ioannis

[Anthony Stokes]

Ioannis,
I know you are looking for Greek resources specifically, but in case you wanted to venture out a little bit, there is a very good book by Peter Fekula and Matthew Williams of ROCOR called "The Order of the Divine Services of the Russian Orthodox Church." It is my source when putting together services every week for use at church. It is published by St. John of Kronstadt Press - www.sjkp.org (http://www.sjkp.org) It's as close to an English Typicon as I have found so far.

Also, Volume 1 of "Russian Church Singing" by Johann von Gardner goes through the services pretty well. It is out of print right now, but it is the the textbook for my class.

Subdeacon Anthony

[Ioannis Christodoulou]

Thanks Anthony, I`ll take a look at it, if its not to expensive I may just purchase it. If the book "Russian Church Singing" becomes available, I would also be intersted in it. Thanks once again, Ioannis

[Michael Astley]

I'm pleased to have found this thread as I have a question about Vespers.

When there are fewer than a full complement of stichera, what happens to the "surplus" stichoi? Do they get omitted? Or are they perhaps intoned in the same manner as the preceding psalm verses? I know that you insert the stichera working from the bottom up but it often means that there are some stichoi at the beginning that just sort of hang there and no source I have found tells us what to do with them. As Fr Raphael says, it was once the case that wewould simply learn from experiencing others doing it but I rarely have that opportunity. Apart from my priest, the only means in which many aspects of our liturgical tradition are passed on to me are the rubrics of the service books, The Order of Divine Services, and my brothers and sisters here at monachos.net and other discussion boards.

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

In Christ,
Michael

[Herman Blaydoe]

I believe that, if you look in the Menaion, you should see "(three times)" or "(twice)", meaning you sing that particular sticheria more than once to fill in as necessary.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Michael Astley wrote:



When there are fewer than a full complement of stichera, what happens to the "surplus" stichoi? Do they get omitted? Or are they perhaps intoned in the same manner as the preceding psalm verses? I know that you insert the stichera working from the bottom up but it often means that there are some stichoi at the beginning that just sort of hang there and no source I have found tells us what to do with them.

After Lord I Have Cried you chant through the whole sequence of Psalms until you get to the Psalm verse that would match up with the number of stichiri the service calls for. Thus if the service calls for only 8 or 6 stichiri rather than the full 10 as on Saturday evening then chant through the Psalm verses that do not have matching stichiri (2 if it is an 8 stichiri service, 4 if on 6) just as did the preceding Psalm sequence. ie they are chanted, not sung.

Note though that in Russian parish tradition it is quite common to skip from Lord I Have Cried directly to the appropriate Psalm verse that matches your first stichira.

Here is an example of this from the Lord I Have Cried for this coming Saturday Vespers (OC).


Reader: In the 4th Tone: Lord, I have cried unto Thee, hearken unto me.

Choir: Lord, I have cried unto Thee, hearken unto me. * Hearken unto me, O Lord. * Lord, I have cried unto Thee, hearken unto me; * attend to the voice of my supplication, * when I cry unto Thee. * Hearken unto me, O Lord.
Let my prayer be set forth * as incense before Thee, * the lifting up of my hands * as an evening sacrifice. * Hearken unto me, O Lord.

Reader: (10) Bring my soul out of prison: Choir: that I may confess Thy name.

Bowing down unceasingly before Thy life-giving Cross, O Christ God, we glorify Thy Resurrection on the third day, for thereby Thou hast restored corrupted human nature, O Almighty, and hast renewed for us the ascent of the heavens, in that Thou alone art good and lovest mankind.

(9) The righteous shall wait patiently for me * until Thou shalt reward me.

Thou hast loosed the penalty for the disobedience committed through the tree, O Savior, having been nailed of Thine own will to the Tree of the Cross; and having descended into hades, O Mighty One, as God Thou didst break asunder the bonds of death. Wherefore we worship Thy Resurrection from the dead, crying out with joy: O Lord Almighty, glory be to Thee!

(8) Out of the depths have I cried unto Thee, O Lord; * O Lord, hear my voice.

Thou didst break down the gates of hades, O Lord, and didst destroy the kingdom of death; and Thou didst free the human race from corruption, granting life, incorruption, and great mercy to the world.

(7) Let Thine ears be attentive * to the voice of my supplication.

Come, O ye people, let us hymn the Savior’s rising on the third day, whereby we have been delivered from the unbreakable bonds of hades, and have all received incorruption and life, crying out: O Thou Who alone lovest mankind, Who wast crucified, buried, and hast arisen, save us by Thy resurrection!

In the 6th Tone:

(6) If Thou shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, O Lord, who shall stand? * For with Thee there is forgiveness.

The never-setting Sun doth come to shine forth from the Virgin’s womb and to enlighten all the world. Let us make haste to meet Him with pure eyes and deeds; and let us now make ready in spirit to receive Him Who doth come into His own through a strange birth, as He hath been well pleased to do, that, as He is compassionate, He might lead us up who have estranged ourselves from the life of Eden, and might be born in Bethlehem.

(5) For Thy name’s sake have I patiently waited for Thee, O Lord; my soul hath patiently waited for Thy word, * my soul hath hoped in the Lord.

God the Word, Who is upborne upon the shoulders of the cherubim, having united Himself hypostatically to the flesh, hath made His abode within the womb of the all-immaculate one and become a man; and He hath come to earth to be born of the tribe of Judah. The holy cave is beautifully adorned, like a most magnificent palace, for the King of all; and the manger, wherein the Virgin Mary doth lay the Infinite One like a babe, is like a fiery throne, and doth serve for the renewal of creation.

(4) From the morning watch until night, from the morning watch * let Israel hope in the Lord.

In a manger of dumb beasts doth the Virgin lay Thee, O unoriginate Word of God, Who, in manner which doth surpass understanding, hast received a beginning; for Thou dost come to put an end to that foolishness which I assumed through the malice of the serpent, and to be wrapped in swaddling clothes, that Thou might rend asunder the rags and chains of my transgressions, O Thou Who alone art good and the Lover of mankind. Wherefore, I glorify Thee and I hymn and most joyfully worship Thine advent in the flesh, whereby I have been set free.

(3) For with the Lord there is mercy, and with Him is plenteous redemption; * and He shall redeem Israel out of all his iniquities.

Until the ends of the earth hath the memory of the forefathers been manifest as truly filled with light and shining with rays of grace; for Christ, the radiant Sun, shining from afar on high, doth lead forth an assembly of stars which shine with Him, and in the midst of Bethlehem a nativity is shown to be that of God and man. Therefore, piously clapping our hands, with faith let us all join chorus to utter pre-festive praise unto His nativity.

(2) O praise the Lord, all ye nations; * praise Him, all ye peoples.

Rejoicing today, Adam is adorned with the glory of divine communion, as the foundation and confirmation of the wise forefathers; and with him Abel doth leap for joy and Enoch is glad, and Seth danceth together with Noah; the all-praised Abraham doth chant with the patriarchs, and from on high Melchizedek doth behold a birth wherein a father had no part. Wherefore, celebrating the divine memory of the forefathers of Christ, we beseech Him, that our souls be saved.

(1) For He hath made His mercy to prevail over us, * and the truth of the Lord abideth forever.

With gladness hath the assembly of the divinely wise children in the furnace shone forth, and it proclaimeth the nativity of Christ on earth; for the Lord, descending like a precious dew, doth preserve unconsumed she who gave Him birth, doth keep her undefiled and doth enrich her with divine gifts. Wherefore, the God-pleasing Daniel rejoiceth in gladness, for he hath clearly foreseen the Stone uncut from the mountain, and with boldness doth he now pray on behalf of our souls.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.

Daniel, the man of divine desires, seeing Thee, the Stone uncut by human hands, O Lord, prophetically called Thee a babe born without seed, the Word incarnate of the Virgin, the immaculate God, the Savior of our souls.

Both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Splendidly adorn thyself, O cave, for the ewe-lamb who doth bear Christ in her womb doth come! O manger, receive thou Him Who by a word doth release us mortals from irrational activity! Ye shepherds who pipe, bear witness to the awesome wonder! Ye Magi from Persia, bring forth gold, frankincense and myrrh, for the Lord hath appeared from the Virgin Mary; and the Mother, regarding Him as doth befit a handmaid, worshipped Him Who was laid in her arms: How wast Thou sown within me? How didst Thou spring forth in me, O my Deliverer and God?

(sorry- I tried to upload this as an attachment but even half of this content was too much).



In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Vasiliki D.]

http://analogion.net/glt/


I don't have the link, but my priest told me the Ecumenical Patriarchate publishes the entire services (in Greek) somewhere on their website. I assume it's just for Sundays, but it would be worth checking out if you're wondering about the order of all the different components.

[Ioannis Christodoulou]

http://analogion.net/glt/

Thank you all for the very helpful information. I am very grateful. I have slowly worked through Vespers and am humbled by the daily prayers and their meaning. For the first time Christmas last, I felt, through the prayers, the discovery of a welcoming of the Lord into my heart. Something I have never experienced before. My lack of understanding has always kept me at a distance. I am still unsure if I am reading Vespers in the correct manner. But even the little that I do know and understand has opened a new door of understanding in Christ and Orthodoxy. I feel sad in a sense that the many are being left behind and if they truly understood even the slightest prayer reading it would drastically change a lot of peoples attitudes. I pray one day they will take that one step forward.

Once again, thank you and May our Lord be with you!

Yours in Christ Ioannis