Need help in identifying icons

[Amy]

I am trying to help a friend to identify the 3rd and 5th icons in this video of
Divna Ljubojevic, titled: "Bogorodice Djevo"




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ggTa1olMQc&feature=related

Thanks for any help you may offer.

[Olga]

Amy, I'l love to help, but when clicking on the link to the YouTube clip, it says "Sorry, but this clip is no longer available". Is there another way of viewing the clip?

[Nicolaj]

I looked it up, here is a functional link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ggTa1olMQc&feature=related

In Christ, Nicolaj

[Olga]

Thank you, Nikolaj, for the link.

Amy, the third image in the montage of the YouTube clip is most likely a detail from a western (most likely Roman Catholic) painting of the Crucifixion. While the letters MP-ΘY are present in this image, the artistic style, the colours of the Virgin's garments, the expression on her face, and the clasping of her hands confirm this. Orthodox icons generally show the Mother of God clothed in a blue or similarly dark inner garment, and a red or wine-coloured outer garment (maphorion). The Roman Catholic practice is to use the reverse colours - red for the inner garment, blue for the outer.

Orthodox icons of the Virgin at the Crucifixion generally show her slightly bowed in posture, while still looking up at her Son, and with her right hand extended in supplication towards the crucified Christ, while her other hand is shrouded in her garments, denoting her humility before Him. Some later versions show the Virgin with one hand touching her face in sorrow, but her other hand is still extended in supplication, as she also does in all of her icons where she is holding the infant Christ. This might sound strange, but her humble, supplicatory posture brings to mind the great hope, anticipation, and joy of the Resurrection:

O my Son and my God, though I am wounded to the core and torn to the heart as I see You dead, yet confident in Your resurrection, I magnify You. (from Matins of Holy Saturday, sung on Great Friday evening.)

I assume the fifth icon in the clip is the one which looks like a line drawing against a creamy-orange background. The image on the clip has unfortunately been reproduced in mirror-image, as the letters MP-ΘY and IC-XC are in reverse, and the Christ-child appears to be blessing with His left hand. Be that as it may, this icon is one of the many variants of the Odighitria type (Directress, or She who shows the Way). The multiple-pointed star motif in the Mother of God's halo is unusual, not normally found in icons.

[Amy]

Olga,

You truly inspire me with your depth of knowledge regarding iconography. Thank you so much for the informative reply.

Is it ok if I copy/paste your reply to my inquiring friend?

In Christ,
amy

[Rick H.]

Dear Olga,

I have an icon on my shelf that I printed from a travel site to Greece. There was no information about the icon, I'm not even really sure why it was there.

The site is no longer up so I can't paste a picture of it here.

But, what I'm getting at is I would be very grateful if you might know anything about this one so I can order one.

It is an Icon of the Apostle Paul on Mars Hill.

He is wearing a blue inner garment with a pink/light red outer garment and standing in front of a gold background.

He is pointing to an alter which says in Greek "The Unknown God."

Thanks very much for any possible help with this one.

In Christ,
Rick

[Michael Stickles]

Rick - does your icon look like the one in this picture? (The picture is of Archbishop Christodoulos and John Paul II meeting at the Areopagus, i.e. Mars Hill). Just curious.

142

In Christ,
Michael

[Rick H.]

Mike,

What a great picture! Thanks very much for searching for this. I really appreciate this. But, this icon is different from the one I'm looking for. Mine has Paul facing front with more of a full face and it is not as realistic as this one . . . it's somewhat more animated if that makes any sense.

But, thanks again very much for taking the time to look! :)

In Christ,
Rick

[Michael Stickles]

Ah. This one, maybe? The full-sized version was on a Flickr page (http://flickr.com/photos/96522675@N00/2693794100). Somehow I missed it with my first search.

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[Olga]

Olga,

You truly inspire me with your depth of knowledge regarding iconography. Thank you so much for the informative reply.

Is it ok if I copy/paste your reply to my inquiring friend?

In Christ,
amy

Of course you can, Amy! Who am I to stop you? :))

[Olga]

Hello Rick

I have seen several versions of this icon of Apostle Paul on the Areopagus, with a column marked in Greek "To the Unknown God". It is not a common composition, I have only seen contemporary versions of it so far. I suspect it may have first appeared as a side-panel of a "life" icon of the apostle, i.e. an icon which has a large central panel of the saint, bordered by a series of smaller panels illustrating scenes from his life, and was later rendered as an icon in its own right.

IMHO, I would regard St Paul's posture and gestures to be quite important in such image. The first version posted by Michael is perhaps the best one: Paul is holding the Gospel book in his left hand, as is customary for an apostle, while giving a clerical blessing with his right hand. Though he never became a priest or bishop, there is a very old iconographic tradition of showing apostles giving such a blessing, even though they may not have attained clerical rank. Another motif which denotes apostles as teachers (think of the troparia associated with the apostles) is the angulus clavulus, a vertical strip of contrasting colour worn on the tunic (inner garment), which was a feature of authoritative rank in the Greco-Roman world. Christ's red tunic also has a golden clavulus, He being the great Rabbi and Teacher. The quarter-circle motif in the upper left-hand corner represents the Divine presence, with the concentric blue circles representing the uncreated light and glory of God. A hand emerges from this light, blessing the saint.

The second icon posted by Michael is rather busy and cluttered in its composition. Much of the detail could have been omitted without losing the scriptural and theological significance it tries to convey. The best approach in iconography is "less is more". The Areopagus and the city of Athens could have been represented more simply, and the trees in the background are rather too large, detracting from the "message" of the icon.

[Rick H.]

145



Dear Olga and Mike,

Thanks so much! My daughter was kind enough to take a photo of this so I could post it.

As you can see this is a tall and thin icon, so I wonder if that supports the side panel idea. If you click on the icon to make it larger you can see that he is pointing to the alter (or possibly what is not on the alter). And, there is something in his left hand--it is a cylindrical object possibly with a spiral shaft. I think here we see the 'less is more' approach.

So, thanks again very much for your efforts Mike and your excellent comments Olga.

If it is possible to help me identify this in a way that I might be able to purchase one this would be much appreciated.

In Christ,
Rick

[Paul Cowan]

I don't know much about iconography, but this does not look like my patron saint. At least not from the icons I have seen of him before. Can someone translate the letters on the altar and around his head please.

[Nina]

I don't know much about iconography, but this does not look like my patron saint. At least not from the icons I have seen of him before. Can someone translate the letters on the altar and around his head please.

Around the head of the Apostle is written:
'Saint Paul the Apostle'

And he is pointing to the column on which is written:
'The unknown God'

But that area does not seem like the Aeropagos to me. If one has been there they would understand why (there are stairs which are slippery from centuries of people climbing them. And in the background in reality there is Acropolis etc.)

[Paul Cowan]

ok, well, my bad. I guess I need to spend more time talking to him.

[Olga]

Poor Paul. I must admit that the face of Apostle Paul in the icon that Rick posted does look rather different from the usual serious-faced (almost scowling in some versions), black-haired but balding, shortish-bearded type with which doubtlessly Paul C. is more familiar. I must admit to feeling much the same when viewing this image. Dare I say, he looks far more like the Athenian philosopher Socrates than Apostle Paul.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:UZ2-ImtzhMMBDM:http://cache.eb.com/eb/image%3Fid%3D75569%26rendTypeId%3D4 (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://cache.eb.com/eb/image%3Fid%3D75569%26rendTypeId%3D4&imgrefurl=http://www.britannica.com/ebc/art/print%253Fid%253D72925%26articleTypeId%253D0&h=450&w=431&sz=55&hl=en&start=4&um=1&usg=__ag2nUMPvj2uUXoXO86VxJlefuFY=&tbnid=UZ2-ImtzhMMBDM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSocrates%2Bphilosopher%26um%3D1%26hl% 3Den) Bust of Socrates

A few more points on this image, if I may:

The "spiral shaft" he is holding is a scroll, representing the wisdom of God, a motif which is the equivalent of the Gospel book apostles and hierarchs usually hold. Such a scroll is also held by the Christ-child when in the arms of His mother, in icons of the feast of Mid-Pentecost, and also by the adult Christ in many festal icons, most notably in the Resurrection.

I may have criticised the icon provided by Michael S. for its awkward composition, but it at least shows Paul gesturing to Christ with one hand, while pointing to the inscribed pillar with the other. This, I feel, is a more scripturally and theologically correct depiction of Paul's preaching to the Athenians at the Areopagus. Paul commended the Greeks for their inherent piety, even to the point of venerating an "unknown god", but the point of his message to them was to show that the one, true, God was real, not imaginary, that He had revealed Himself, and could be known, to all humanity, including Gentiles like themselves.

I feel that it is somehow not quite right that Paul is simply pointing to the pillar which has the words "To an Unknown God", without some sort of reference to the God who has been revealed to us. This image could be interpreted by some as suggesting that "all paths lead to God", which I sincerely hope was not the original iconographer's intention.

The first icon posted on this thread remains, for me at least, the most satisfactory of this type. Simple, clear, and to the point. If the icon from the Flickr site could be reworked and simplified by a skilled iconographer, it would be just as good.

[Nina]

Dare I say, he looks far more like the Athenian philosopher Socrates than Apostle Paul.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:UZ2-ImtzhMMBDM:http://cache.eb.com/eb/image%3Fid%3D75569%26rendTypeId%3D4 (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://cache.eb.com/eb/image%3Fid%3D75569%26rendTypeId%3D4&imgrefurl=http://www.britannica.com/ebc/art/print%253Fid%253D72925%26articleTypeId%253D0&h=450&w=431&sz=55&hl=en&start=4&um=1&usg=__ag2nUMPvj2uUXoXO86VxJlefuFY=&tbnid=UZ2-ImtzhMMBDM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSocrates%2Bphilosopher%26um%3D1%26hl% 3Den) Bust of Socrates


Don't you dare, Olga! :P :)

In all seriousness now thank you, Olga, for all the statements since they are not only edifying but they capture many truths.

However St. Paul in the icon of Rick has different features from Socrates; a more elongated face and his forehead has the characteristic divide between his hairline and the lower part of the forehead. Socrates has features (in this statue) resembling more to those of a northern European (sorry Socrates!).


I feel that it is somehow not quite right that Paul is simply pointing to the pillar which has the words "To an Unknown God", without some sort of reference to the God who has been revealed to us. This image could be interpreted by some as suggesting that "all paths lead to God", which I sincerely hope was not the original iconographer's intention.And this is the bottom line and the truth!


The first icon posted on this thread remains, for me at least, the most satisfactory of this type. Simple, clear, and to the point. If the icon from the Flickr site could be reworked and simplified by a skilled iconographer, it would be just as good.Yes, because it has beautiful Orthodox elements.

[Rick H.]

146


Dear Olga,

Thanks very much for your most informed comments--very valuable. I never thought about the lack of reference to God in my icon, but you are right, in this sense it is lacking. My baptismal name is Paul and when I first found this icon I felt a special relationship to it and for the lack of a better word this morning, an attraction to it. Now that some of the above things have been pointed out I am looking at icons in a different way now. As a last comment on my icon of Paul, I think it is possible that the expression on his face in my icon is appropriate as far as his mood or approach that we read of in Acts. Paul was matter of fact in his discussion in Athens that day, and his conclusion was clear in terms of Christ. But, there was no scowling in his voice that day, only compassion I think. No anger, no defensiveness, combativeness, no 'in-your-face" challenging, but more of an attempting to appeal to their reason in Love, I think. Possibly, due to Paul's background and training he could really relate to these guys. Yes, possibly this is the face of 'the truth in love' that we see here!/?

I don't want to wear our my welcome with icon questions here; but, I wonder if I could recieve any comments on the above icon of Christ. I printed this one from the Greek Orthodox in America website and put it on a painted piece of wood. I used the question and answer feature of the GOA website to try to find out where I could purchase one of these. A nice man replied that he didn't know anything about it or where I could buy one.

Thanks to all, and especially you Olga, for this short course on icons. Very informative!

In Christ,
Rick

[Rick H.]

Afterthought:

You know, my eyes aren't even half open yet as I sit here with my first cup of coffee this moring . . . .

But, it occurs to me that some of what we said about my icon of Paul [in terms of what is lacking in terms of other elements] could also be said about my icon of Jesus.

[Rick H.]

I received a feedback on my last post which was:


"?????????????????????"


In an attempt to clarify, as Olga wrote above:




I feel that it is somehow not quite right that Paul is simply pointing to the pillar which has the words "To an Unknown God", without some sort of reference to the God who has been revealed to us. This image could be interpreted by some as suggesting that "all paths lead to God", which I sincerely hope was not the original iconographer's intention.



and, I think she is saying something like there are no crosses or bibles or direct references to God in the icon of Paul, and in this sense could be interpreted as a kind in a kind of generic or universal way, it occurs to me the same could be said of my icon on Jesus because there are not crosses or bibles or any direct references here that distinguish it from the Jesus that is preached by the Mormons,or the one understood and embraced by the Hindus for example. For that matter I have an Indian friend who has a statue of Christ and one of Krishna side by side on his shelf at his house--now that I think of it, he wold probably like this icon. Hopefully, that clears up my question/comment above.

In Christ,
Rick

[Rick H.]

I need to get away from this computer and get something done today . . .

But, to finish out my flurry of posts this morning, it also occurs to me that the only other icon I have is of Rublev's Holy Trinity . . . and same thing here. Three angels, a cup, and a table. If you know the story of the oaks in the background then there is meaning there, but this is like my Apostle Paul icon, if you know the story behind the scene there there is meaning.

Looks like you will need to bring me up to speed here once again Olga.

[Olga]

I don't want to wear our my welcome with icon questions here; but, I wonder if I could recieve any comments on the above icon of Christ. I printed this one from the Greek Orthodox in America website and put it on a painted piece of wood. I used the question and answer feature of the GOA website to try to find out where I could purchase one of these. A nice man replied that he didn't know anything about it or where I could buy one.


Wear out your welcome, Rick? Not likely! :))

The icon of Christ you posted is a standard icon which has simply been cropped for whatever reason, hence the absence of His blessing right hand, and the Gospel book. It would be unlikely that the finished icon was painted without these elements. There are a handful of historical "head and shoulders" icons of Christ with which I am familiar, but, if memory serves, most, if not all, are part of a Deesis/Supplicatory series, where the Christ icon is in the middle, flanked by icons of the Mother of God and John the Baptist.



it also occurs to me that the only other icon I have is of Rublev's Holy Trinity . . . and same thing here. Three angels, a cup, and a table. If you know the story of the oaks in the background then there is meaning there, but this is like my Apostle Paul icon, if you know the story behind the scene there there is meaning.

Oooh, there's enough theology in the icon of the Trinity to fill a book or two! :)) Here is a useful, short explanation, written by a contemporary iconographer, Fr Gregory (Krug):

The prototype for this icon was the mysterious appearance of the Holy Trinity in the form of three travellers to Abraham and Sarah under the oak of Mamre. The Church specifically chose this particular icon because it most fully expresses the dogma of the Holy Trinity: the three angels are depicted in equal dignity, symbolizing the triunity and equality of all three Persons.

We find the deepest understanding of this dogma in the icon of the Trinity painted by the venerable Andrei Rublev for the Trinity Cathedral of the Trinity-Sergius Lavra. This icon is a masterpiece of ancient Russian iconography, and it is not surprising that the Church established it as the model for depicting the Trinity.

In Andrei Rublev’s icon, the persons of the Holy Trinity are shown in the order in which they are confessed in the Creed. The first angel is the first person of the Trinity - God the Father; the second, middle angel is God the Son; the third angel is God the Holy Spirit. All three angels are blessing the chalice, in which lies a sacrificed calf, prepared for eating. The sacrifice of the calf signifies the Saviour’s death on the cross, while its preparation as food symbolizes the sacrament of the Eucharist. All three angels have staffs in their hand as a symbol of their divine power.

The first angel, shown at left, is vested in a blue undergarment which depicts his divine celestial nature, and a light purple outer garment which attests to the unfathomable nature and the royal dignity of this angel. Behind him and above his head towers a house, the abode of Abraham, and a sacrificial altar in front of the house. This image of the abode has a symbolic meaning: the house signifies God’s master plan for creation, while the fact that the house towers above the first angel shows him to be the head (or Father) of this creation. The same fatherly authority is seen in his entire appearance. His head is not bowed and he is looking at the other two angels. His whole demeanor - the expression on his face, the placement of his hands, the way he is sitting - all speaks of his fatherly dignity. The other two angels have their heads inclined and eyes turned toward the first angel with great attention, as though conversing with him about the salvation of mankind.

The second angel is placed in the middle of the icon. This placement is determined by the position held by the second Person within the Trinity Itself. Above his head extend the branches of an oak tree. The vestments of the second angel correspond to those in which the Saviour is usually depicted. The undergarment is a dark crimson color which symbolizes the incarnation, while the blue outer robe signifies the divinity and the celestial nature of this angel. The second angel is inclined towards the first angel, as though deep in conversation. The tree behind him serves as a reminder of the tree of life that was standing in Eden, and of the cross.

The angel on the right is the third Person of the Trinity - the Holy Spirit. His light blue undergarment and smoky-green outer garment represent heaven and earth, and signify the life-giving force of the Holy Spirit, which animates everything that exists. “By the Holy Spirit every soul lives and is elevated in purity” - sings the Church. This elevation in purity is represented in the icon by a mountain above the third angel.

Thus Andrei Rublev’s icon, while being an unsurpassed work of iconography, is first and foremost a “theology in color,” which instructs us in all that concerns the revelation of the triune God and the three Persons of the Holy Trinity.

To the above, I would add that, though the second angel represents the second person of the Trinity, it is incorrect for this angel to bear the distinctive halo with the nine-bar cross which is used for Christ, or the letters IC-XC. This halo, and these letters, are only to be used in icons of the incarnate Christ. The event at the Oak of Mamre are a pre-incarnational prefiguration of God in Trinity, therefore the haloes on all three angels must be the same.

The "reverse perspective" in this icon is also ingenious. The three angels sit at three sides of the table. The fourth side, closest to the viewer, is empty. The non-naturalistic perspective therefore draws the viewer closer, in effect, "inviting" the viewer to sit at the table. Adam fell, through his disobedient eating, but humanity has been redeemed through the obedient sacrifice of Christ, now celebrated through the Eucharist. Humanity again has the chance to "sit at the table", and participate in the life of God.

[Rick H.]

Dear Olga,

Thanks very much for helping me to see my three icons in a new light! I have a new appreciation and understanding of icons now thanks to you. This has been a very good experience. I would like to learn more about icons as a result of this.

Thanks again.

In Christ,
Rick

[Dimitris]

Hallo!

This time it's me needing help in identifying icons and persons on icons. These icons are of the Romanian Orthodox Church in Vienna.

The first two are obvioulsy depictions of a prophecy by Ezekiel. Could you tell me, in which passage of the Book of Ezekiel you can find this scene?

In the next file you find two icons, I think of people in the Hades/hell. The translation of the inscription of the upper one is obvioulsy "Heretics". Is it possible to identify the persons on that icons, or at least which groups of heretics they present? What does the inscription of the second one say?

Also in the fourth file, it would be interesting to know what the inscription says.

Then the fifth file is also very interesting. I think it is again depicting Hades/hell with lots of persons. Each person has an inscription, therefore I uploaded this file in full resolution. I would be very thankful if someone could identify and translate what these inscriptions say, even if I know the quality of the picture is quite poor. Also, I don't understand at all the depiction of that person with the horns on the head and the cup in the hand. The person sitting on him looks like Christ child as in icons with the Theotokos, but I don't get the meaning of this setting.

Thank you very much,
Dimitris

[Daniel R.]

My guess for the second would be Ezekiel chapter 37. I'm afraid I can not help with the rest.

[Ryan]

The people in flames are, I think:

1. Heretics
2. Harlots, sodomites, and all the defiled and unclean
3. Oppressors, deceivers, and the proud (swollen?) in spirit

[Michael 'Anthony' Cornett]

It appears as those individual members residing in Hell/Hades are labeled, a la the spurious Ark of Salvation icon we had a discussion about a while ago: http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?4612-The-ark-of-salvation-image