Christ's crucifixion and language of 'the Jews'

[Effie Ganatsios]

Thanks Olga. I didn't know this.

Olga, one more question, totally off topic.

How do I start a new thread? There was a little button that I I clicked in the past but I can't seem to find it now.

I want to start a discussion about what the Orthodox Church teaches about the Jews and the death of Christ. Does it blame present day Jews for what happened 2000 years ago. Did our Church resist and even try to change the mind of the Roman Catholic Church when it decided that today's Jews are not responsible?

[Alice]

Thanks Olga. I didn't know this.


I want to start a discussion about what the Orthodox Church teaches about the Jews and the death of Christ. Does it blame present day Jews for what happened 2000 years ago. Did our Church resist and even try to change the mind of the Roman Catholic Church when it decided that today's Jews are not responsible?

Dear Effie,

When the movie 'The Passion of the Christ' came out, we had this discussion in my parish's Bible study class with our Priest. We all came to the conclusion that we shouldn't *blame* the Jews because they were the only people around that could fulfill this divine prophecy of the crucifixion. They had a part to play. Christ was Jewish. If he were Greek, surely it would have been the Greeks that would have cried "Crucify Him".

As a child, I always thought to myself, "how can we not love the Jewish people and their traditions? How can people who are Christians say bad things about them? Christ and our Panayia Theotokos were born Jewish. If we love them, we cannot help but love our Jewish brethren"...and I still feel that way, and because of my respect for the religion and race which my Lord was born in, I try to overlook things that might otherwise annoy me. No race, culture, or nationality is perfect anyway. We are all individuals who are sinners. I pray that one day the Jewish people will see that Jeshua was indeed the Messiah that they are still waiting for. The only thing I can do to help that is to try to show them (and they have been my neighbors, friends, co-workers in New York) that as a Christian I have great respect and love for them...

Just some humble thoughts...

In Christ,
Alice

[Olga]

I want to start a discussion about what the Orthodox Church teaches about the Jews and the death of Christ. Does it blame present day Jews for what happened 2000 years ago. Did our Church resist and even try to change the mind of the Roman Catholic Church when it decided that today's Jews are not responsible?

There is much useful material regarding this topic in the liturgical texts for Holy Week, particularly from the Matins of Great Friday (sung on the evening of Holy Thursday). From memory, the Sanhedrin is frequently referred to in such terms as lawless, impious, etc. One of the Gospels chanted during this service has the passage: It was Caiaphas who had advised the Jews that it was advantageous for one individual to die for the people.

I'll look further into the materials I have.

[Effie Ganatsios]

What is the Orthodox Church's official stand on this?

I have been told that when the Roman Catholic church "forgave" the Jews, the Orthodox Church objected. Is this true? And if it is, why?

How can we blame today's Jews for something that happened 2.000 years ago? This would be like blaming all present day Roman Catholics for the Inquisition.

[Herman Blaydoe]

What is the Orthodox Church's official stand on this?

I have been told that when the Roman Catholic church "forgave" the Jews, the Orthodox Church objected. Is this true? And if it is, why?

How can we blame today's Jews for something that happened 2.000 years ago? This would be like blaming all present day Roman Catholics for the Inquisition.

Huh? I would really love to see the source for this. The Orthodox Church objected? Who is this all-encompassing spokesperson for "the Orthodox Church" who assigns blame to one particular group of people over all others? It is hard to prove that something doesn't exist, but I prefer to see something definitive before I believe it does. If there is one bishop who does promote such a wrong-headed distortion of the Church's teachings, (and I certainly don't know of one ) I don't think he speaks for "The Church" as a whole. Our bishops don't have to be infallible.

I don't know how to do it, if I need to get each and every bishop and patriarch to sign a letter to prove it, but I honestly do not believe that "The Church" believes that today's Jews are any more (or less) guilty of the need for Christ's Death and Resurrection than you and I. Our Lord told the Samaritan Woman, St. Photini, that salvation is from the Jews!

So before I get all indignant about something "the Church" may or may not have done, I am going to need something a little more concrete, reputable, and authoritative to respond to.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain
Herman the Pooh

[Effie Ganatsios]

Huh? I would really love to see the source for this. The Orthodox Church objected? Who is this all-encompassing spokesperson for "the Orthodox Church" who assigns blame to one particular group of people over all others? It is hard to prove that something doesn't exist, but I prefer to see something definitive before I believe it does. If there is one bishop who does promote such a wrong-headed distortion of the Church's teachings, (and I certainly don't know of one ) I don't think he speaks for "The Church" as a whole. Our bishops don't have to be infallible.

I don't know how to do it, if I need to get each and every bishop and patriarch to sign a letter to prove it, but I honestly do not believe that "The Church" believes that today's Jews are any more (or less) guilty of the need for Christ's Death and Resurrection than you and I. Our Lord told the Samaritan Woman, St. Photini, that salvation is from the Jews!

So before I get all indignant about something "the Church" may or may not have done, I am going to need something a little more concrete, reputable, and authoritative to respond to.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain
Herman the Pooh

I'm sorry Herman. Someone said this to me the other day and I didn't know if it was true or not, or even how to answer. I could not believe it either. And that is why I asked whether anyone knew the official position of the Orthodox Church regarding the Jews. I couldn't find anything on the Web when I searched for specific information. I will try again though.

Effie

[Herman Blaydoe]

I'm sorry Herman. Someone said this to me the other day and I didn't know if it was true or not, or even how to answer. I could not believe it either. And that is why I asked whether anyone knew the official position of the Orthodox Church regarding the Jews. I couldn't find anything on the Web when I searched for specific information. I will try again though.

Effie

Good luck, but I honestly and sincerely believe you won't find it, because it simply does not exist. I would say that the burden of proof would be on the person making the charge. Make that person do the homework, otherwise simply refuse to accept such a silly thing. Otherwise, you might find this article by Bishop Kallistos (http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/misc/kallistos_ware_rejected_his_people.htm)helpful.

[Misha]

When my grandma ,now 85 yrs old,was a girl ,she has spent sometime in Thessaloniki where there was a significant jewish community.
She remembers that a jewish young woman has told her that their bodies have an unpleasant odour,even if they take baths frequently, because they have not been baptized.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

This answer of Abba John of Barsanuphius & John I think sums up what our attitude should be:


686 A Christ-loving layperson asked: I want to press some Jewish wine in my presser. Is this a sin?

Answer: If, when God rains, it rains in your field but not in that of the Jew, then do not press his wine. If He is loving-kind to all and rains upon the just and the unjust, then why do you want to be inhumane and not compassionate, rather, as He says: 'Be merciful, even as your Father in heaven is merciful' (Lk. 6:36).

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Alice]

When my grandma ,now 85 yrs old,was a girl ,she has spent sometime in Thessaloniki where there was a significant jewish community.
She remembers that a jewish young woman has told her that their bodies have an unpleasant odour,even if they take baths frequently, because they have not been baptized.

Dear brother in Christ, Misha,

Forgive me, I do not mean to offend you, but I have to say that I find this ridiculous! Growing up and living in New York, that has a very large Jewish population, I went to school with Jews, I worked in close office and retail spaces with Jews, I broke bread with Jews, I had Jewish children in my home--I have NEVER realized such a thing (and yes, I even have friends who are Greek Jews.)

(If anything, any perceived body odour would be for the same reason that we Christians also have it: not washing or wearing clothes that are not washed and not because they were not baptized)

Alice

[Nina]

Dear Effie,

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has the stance that was told to you. I have never heard, or read such thing.

On the other hand we have prophecies that say that Prophet Elias will come and preach Christ to many Jewish people and plenty of them will convert before the End.

We (people of all nationalities and backgrounds and religions) are guilty of crucifying Christ daily with our sins.

The high priests that took the decision are not 'all the Jewish people'. Even the Sanhedrin is not to be considered totally as crucifying Christ since we know that there were pious people there (who are saints for us too) that objected.

Last, one of my maternal great-grandmothers was Hebrew. I do not think that that qualifies me as guilty of having crucified Christ. My sins, yes.

[Alice]

Dear Effie,

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has the stance that was told to you. I have never heard, or read such thing.

We (people of all nationalities and backgrounds and religions) are guilty of crucifying Christ daily with our sins.



Dear Nina,

This is so true! I now remember that my Priest said this when we were discussing this theme because of the movie 'The Passion of the Christ'. We all are that crowd. The majority of us would have cried 'crucify Him'. The Jews just happened to be the people who were around.

Many of us will 'crucify' our brothers and sisters and 'go along with the crowd' rather than suffer being ostracized or worse, if the situation arises. Think about how many situations there are when a group of people all decide to 'ostracize' another. Few individuals will have the strength of character to displease their friends and be kind to that person.

It happens all the time and even in the Church. The life of St. Nektarios reflects such a situation. Infact, in recent years, in a certain archdiocese in a certain country there was such a situation with a certain prelate. Some of us did not go along with rumours, slanders and the movement to oust him. We suffered for it. Many of the people who did were good people that got caught up in negative and hateful passions. The evil one works through our weaknesses and our passions. We must all watch ourselves daily to not reenact the crowd that cried 'crucify Him' with our brothers and sisters.

In Christ,
Alice

[Antonios]

When my grandma ,now 85 yrs old,was a girl ,she has spent sometime in Thessaloniki where there was a significant jewish community.
She remembers that a jewish young woman has told her that their bodies have an unpleasant odour,even if they take baths frequently, because they have not been baptized.

Dear Misha,

Cultural behavior, religious customs, culinary diets and even the composition of sweat glands due to genetics could also account for such a local phenomenon.

In Christ,
Antonios

[Effie Ganatsios]

When my grandma ,now 85 yrs old,was a girl ,she has spent sometime in Thessaloniki where there was a significant jewish community.
She remembers that a jewish young woman has told her that their bodies have an unpleasant odour,even if they take baths frequently, because they have not been baptized.

Our priest's wife believes this completely but the other way around. Muslim bodies have an unpleasant odour because they have not been baptized Christians.


Many years ago l and my sister in law travelled to Turkey as tourists. She is a Turkophone and her family came here in 1922 from Asia Minor when the populations were exchanged.

The Turkish people were wonderful, very friendly and polite. Our hotel in Constantinople was one of the best and we had a terrific time. But, when we returned to Greece, both our husbands told us that not only did we smell dreadfully, but that our luggage did also. This, in spite of the fact that we had two daily showers. Our luggage, of course, had none!!!!

The priest's wife told them that this was because we had come into contact with unbaptized Muslims, but I believe that it was because of the coal that the Turkish people used back in those days to heat their apartments. When we first arrived we were very aware of the awful smell and also the thick layer of smog over the city, but in a couple of days we had got used to the smell and the smog and hardly noticed them.

It's funny how every religious group thinks they are superior to others and even make up stories to support their claims.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Nina,

This is so true! I now remember that my Priest said this when we were discussing this theme because of the movie 'The Passion of the Christ'. We all are that crowd. The majority of us would have cried 'crucify Him'. The Jews just happened to be the people who were around.


In Christ,
Alice

Alice, I think that the Church blamed the Jewish leadership and not the ordinary Jews.

We have many examples of how our Church thinks of the Jews.

The Great Thursday liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church uses the expression "impious and law-breaking people",[15] and also speaks of "the swarm of deicides, the lawless people of the Jews",[16] and, referring to "the gathering of the Jews", prays: "But give them, Lord, their requital, because they plotted against you in vain."[17]

The above refers to the Jews of the time of Christ's crucifixion.

Has our Church ever issued an official statement in our times, concerning the Jews?

An optimistic note :

Just look at this!

"American Jewish Committee Contributes To Rebuild Greek Orthodox Church Destroyed in Sept. 11 Terror Attack

October 16, 2001 - NEW YORK -- The American Jewish Committee presented today a contribution of $10,000 to help rebuild the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church.

The tiny 85-year old church, which had stood at 155 Cedar Street in Lower Manhattan, was buried under the rubble of the World Trade Center, destroyed by terrorists on September 11."

[Effie Ganatsios]

The following article is very interesting :

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/jewish_1.html

An excerpt :

"Orthodox theology cannot agree in this point with the Theology after Auschwitz. And this is an issue of great importance. If we say that the Romans killed Christ there is still a possibility for someone who attentively reads the Gospels to say that the Jews did it (see for example Acts 2.22,23). So, there is still a possibility for anti-Semitism. The Orthodox position is more profound, I believe. We say that no matter who it was who killed Christ, his guilt has been taken by Christ upon Himself. Being God He (with His Father and the Holy Spirit) is the only true source of the Cross. Thus when we say that Jews (and if you like - Romans) killed Christ we must add that their sin was taken on by Christ. That is why we cannot accuse anybody of His death. If Jews do not acknowledge that their forefathers killed God it is a matter of their freedom, we Christians with our Church Fathers can say both things - that Jews killed God and that their sin is expiated by His blood. So, only we in Christ can say that they are not guilty. "


" know, yet, another approach to the issue of "the killing of God", a Catholic approach, which is also popular among some Jews in Russia. This solution to the problem presupposes that those, maybe a few hundred, Jews who forced Pontius Pilate to kill Christ are indeed the killers of Christ, but not the whole nation, even less so those Jews who live today. This idea seems to be quite reasonable. But may I ask, do modern Jews "are still beloved by God for the sake of the fathers"?(Rom.11.28) With Apostle Paul I believe they do. If "the gifts and the calling of God"(Rom.11.29) are transmitted from generation to generation, that is some event in the past has its effect in the future, than what is the reason to think that the event of the Cross does not have its effect even up till now.*

Being a Jew myself I see no other way for me to be reconciled with God than to be an Orthodox Christian, which does not mean of cause that I allow any attempt to accuse Jews of killing Christ. I repeat once more: it is one thing to say with our Holy Fathers: Jews killed Christ, it is another thing to say that they are guilty. The one statement is true, the another - false, if only we believe that Christ is God.** "

[Nina]

"American Jewish Committee Contributes To Rebuild Greek Orthodox Church Destroyed in Sept. 11 Terror Attack

October 16, 2001 - NEW YORK -- The American Jewish Committee presented today a contribution of $10,000 to help rebuild the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church.

The tiny 85-year old church, which had stood at 155 Cedar Street in Lower Manhattan, was buried under the rubble of the World Trade Center, destroyed by terrorists on September 11."

Ah dear Effie, I dreamed about that church!!! Many people were praying and lighting candles there. I was watching it from above and I was marveled by the beauty and the holiness there. This was after September 11. The church is a martyr too there and maybe saints and angels are praying there for us all even though there is no actual building at the moment.

Dear Alice,

That saying I have read in a saint's life. Panagia I think was saying to a saint (before he reached theosis) about the wounds in Christ's body were inflicted because of the sins of the person she appeared to (who became a saint later). Sorry because now I can not recall where and who was the saint.