Suicide and saved

[Adonis Nomikos]

God Bless you all. I've been out of the Church for along time and i truly thank God that he has softened my heart and called me back to the family, but it has been turbulant in many ways. One of these ways is, when im approached by protestants handing out tracks they ask me what church do i belong to, when i tell them that i am growing in the Orthodox faith, they ask me wether im saved or do i believe that im saved. I respond to them that i believe that my Lord Jesus Christ is my judge and saviour and in his time he will reveal this to me. They laugh and say how sad it is not to know that your not saved i respond by saying what happens if i say what you say and then i fall into depression and kill my self am i still saved? Im told yes, once saved always saved! Then they Quote King Saul that he committed suicide and was saved. This does not sit right with me, then they go on and say how lost Orthodox Christians are, not accepting that where saved. In this i say i leave judgement in my Lord so i will not say im saved or damned. Let the truth be known i dont deserve to be saved but even so i still try to walk the way he wills me not the way i will. then they start on works and traditions of men. Again i respond, i do work to please my lord for my past works displeased him where scripture confirms this, also the tradition i follow is the that which was has given to us by our Lord Jesus Christ, The traition of man is how man wills to serve God not how God wills. Am i right in what i believe or am i missing some thing?
God Bless you all
In Christ
Love Adonis.

[Jim McQuiggin]

Adonis,
The simplicity, clarity, and truthfulness of your response to those brash judgemental Protestants was excellent!

Jim

[Paul Cowan]

Adonis,
The simplicity, clarity, and truthfulness of your response to those brash judgemental Protestants was excellent!

Jim

Ouch! That's an aweful big speck you got there Jim.

[Jim McQuiggin]

I have the greatest respect for those Protestants who share their faith in a loving way. But to laugh at someone's sincere faith in Christ and tell him that Orthodox Christians are lost demonstrates a type of arrogance and a lack of respect. From the tone of the OPs message, I think he will show the respect for others and for the Gospel as it should be shown. May God grant me to be as gracious in similar circumstances.

Jim

[Robert Hegwood]

If possible try to accept their witnessing with humility, in their own way they are expressing concern for your soul. Having been on both ends of the "witnessing stick" it is amazing how rude and obnoxious it can seem on the receiving end. They don't have a clue how they come off, so its not like it is intentional on their part. It might be enough in the future to say that you believe that Jesus Christ is your Saviour Who gave Himself for your sins and that you love Him very much and strive by His grace to follow Him.

I was told Elder Porphyrios once said in his old age (it may have been some other) that when asked what he should say to the Lord when asked if he should be sent to heaven or hell, "I will say, 'wherever Thy love places me O Lord, only do not separate me from your love.'"

[Sophia]

Even when I was a protestant, I found that type to be arrogant and often harsh. When asked if I was saved, I would say that I had hoped I was, but it was God's place to judge that and not mine. I got a lot of flack for my 'lack of faith'. As if somehow at the moment when I accepted Christ's love that I was somehow sealed and no more was needed from me. I always wondered how they could use this as an excuse to be judgmental and for any actions that followed. I found many to be very conceited.

Then I started to meet Orthodox Christians and found the love and humility that had been missing. Spreading the message changed from being a speech I practiced to assault people with as a protestant to the way that I now try to live my live in example of God’s love. Since my illumination, I tend to tell them that I was saved when Christ gave himself up on the cross at Calvary; I am being saved everyday by God's grace alone as I strive to do His will and I will be saved at the resurrection if God sees it fit for me.
I get a multitude of reactions, but sometimes it makes them think and we can start talking.

Unworthy servant of Christ,
Sophia

[Anthony]

Perhaps by way of contrast I could mention here a conversation I once had with an Anglican Evangelical minister (very Evangelical in most of his views), which I still remember as a small signpost on my road to Orthodoxy. He had worked as a missionary in the Holy Land, and told me of his great love for the Orthodox church - that the Orthodox, in his words, were "ignorant of the biblical basis of their salvation, but had the reality of it". He described people he had known who converted to Roman Catholicism, who had been taken out of themselves for a while by the excitement of conversion, but then settled down to what amounted to a subtle form of despair, whereas he had seen in converts to Orthodoxy a growing sense of genuine Christian hope. I was already thinking of becoming Orthodox, but this unexpected confirmation, from somebody I had great respect for, was a valuable piece of encouragement.

[Father Serafim]

Dear Adonis,

Since you are Greek you probably can read Corinthians in the original language, which most Protestants cannot. St Paul uses the Greek - being saved, a process not a state. Hope this helps.

[Andreas Moran]

I for one am very grateful to Fr Serafim for drawing attention to this. The word in question is at 1 Cor. 1:18 - sozomeneis. I'd be grateful if any Greek scholar here would explain the word grammatically.

[Anthony]

Since no Greek scholars seem to be around, I hope the following will be helpful:

soz-o-men-ois (modern pronunciation "sozomenis") - "save", present passive participle, dative plural (agreeing with hymin, "to you"). The point is that the present participle in Greek always indicates an action or state that is ongoing at the time being referred to; it cannot mean "already saved" in the Evangelical sense, which would require an aorist or more probably a perfect participle.

Here the participle is used with the definite article, which generally has the force of a relative clause - "you the being-saved" / "you who are being saved".

[RichardWorthington]

I for one am very grateful to Fr Serafim for drawing attention to this. The word in question is at 1 Cor. 1:18 - sozomeneis. I'd be grateful if any Greek scholar here would explain the word grammatically.

Well, I'm no scholar, but I have this in my personal profile:



"Lord, if he sleeps he will be saved." John 11:12 - the word 'be saved' is here usually translated 'get well', but it is the same word for salvation. Salvation by sleeping - I can cope with that! :)


Finding this out was an eye-opener!!

Richard