Islam in the patristic texts

[Mikhail R.]

I'm looking for direct quotes, from patristic texts, that deal with Islam. If you could refrain from quoting modern writers, and giving interpretation of the Church's view, I would appreciate it. I just want to see the actual texts. Thank you in advance.

-Mikhail R.

[Herman Blaydoe]

I'm looking for direct quotes, from patristic texts, that deal with Islam. If you could refrain from quoting modern writers, and giving interpretation of the Church's view, I would appreciate it. I just want to see the actual texts. Thank you in advance.

-Mikhail R.

How about St. John of Damascus?

St. John of Damascus Critique of Islam (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx)

[Mikhail R.]

How about St. John of Damascus?

St. John of Damascus Critique of Islam (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx)



Thank you, Mr. Blaydoe! It seems that this particular text is easy to find online. However, I haven't been able to find any others. Do you happen to know where I might find writing on the topic by other Church Fathers? The writings seem to be mentioned, but rarely ever quoted.

-Mikhail R.

[Michael Stickles]

I'm not sure how recent you consider "modern", but here are a few, in chronological order:

"A Historical Speech, very profitable and most pleasing in many ways, about a vision which a saracen once had, and who, as a result or this, believed and became a martyr for our Lord Jesus Christ" - Gregory Dekapolites (8th/9th c.). The only link I found online was broken, but the page still exists (for now) as a Google cached document (http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:9LC4C0FI-f0J:www.pravoslavie-islam.ru/dekapolites.htm+gregory+dekapolites&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us).

A Christian-Moslem Debate of the Twelfth Century (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/christ-muslim-debate.html)

Statement on Islam and Muslims (http://www.geocities.com/umaximov/ignat.htm) by St. Ignatius (Brianchaninov) (1807-1867)

In Christ,
Michael

[Robert Hegwood]

The selection presented from St. Ignatius Brianchaninov gives me a little pause...I'm not sure how to take it since in some respects it doesn't quite line up with how I've been taught coming into Orthodoxy...or maybe I'm reading it wrong...not giving it enough temperol context, etc.

The thing is when he speaks about everyone going to hell who has not specifically believed on Christ within the Church, that sounds a great deal to me like old Protestant hell-fire and brimstone. It leave the impression of an angry God out to destroy us and only those fortunate few who have both heard the Good News...but heard and believed the right version of the Good News could expect hell for the afterlife.

On top of this the way he talks about hell and torment remind me of the old Protestant understanding more than what I've learned as an Orthodox, namely that hell is first/more a conditioin of being, with its torments arising out of our insatiable frustrated passions, etc.

Granted we don't want to say there is salvation outside of Christ's name, nor do we want to treat heretical doctrines and practices as if they were right. But do we want to say that there is no way through the Church and her intercessions that others outside her formal bounds might also find some measure of salvation?

Anyway...some parts of it I get...others I don't, so maybe a wiser soul can enlighten me.

Also with regard with the monastic's discourse with Islamists...did he say that the Christian vision of the afterlife entailed among its blessings "beautiful women"...if so where does this come from?

[Paul Cowan]

The thing is when he speaks about everyone going to hell who has not specifically believed on Christ within the Church, that sounds a great deal to me like old Protestant hell-fire and brimstone. It leave the impression of an angry God out to destroy us and only those fortunate few who have both heard the Good News...but heard and believed the right version of the Good News could expect hell for the afterlife.

On top of this the way he talks about hell and torment remind me of the old Protestant understanding more than what I've learned as an Orthodox, namely that hell is first/more a conditioin of being, with its torments arising out of our insatiable frustrated passions, etc.

Also with regard with the monastic's discourse with Islamists...did he say that the Christian vision of the afterlife entailed among its blessings "beautiful women"...if so where does this come from?

As for the last sentence, I read from it he was talking to the Prince about the Moslem beliefs and not the christian beliefs.

The other parts of your concern, I think the only answer is only God is judge. St. Paul says we are to judge those IN the Church, not outside it. Why else did He give the 12 thrones to the 12 apostles to judge the 12 tribes of Israel? Christ himself says there is a place called hell and those on His left will go there. So as the PC may emphasize a God with a big bat and this is wrong, God will allow us to decide where we spend eternity. I think the difference between the two views is who is in control?

God is a just God. Yes, He is also merciful. But if my life was such as I denied Him, I become a goat. Not that He is sending me to hell, since He desires all turn from sin and be saved. But nothing is stopping me from turning my back on Him or turning TO Him. I am in control (though I am only given this control by Him) and God being a respecful God allows me to choose. God is a gentleman. He will not force His way into my heart. As scripture says, " I stand at the door knocking".


But do we want to say that there is no way through the Church and her intercessions that others outside her formal bounds might also find some measure of salvation?

What does it mean "some measure of salvation"? We either are or we are not saved. We can't have one foot in heaven and one foot in hell. As I said above, only God knows and is judge. What a relief to know, I don't have to worry if others are going to heaven or not. Yes, I have to pray for all and do all I can with the talents I have been given, but it ain't my job to judge.

Paul

[Robert Hegwood]

As for the last sentence, I read from it he was talking to the Prince about the Moslem beliefs and not the christian beliefs.

The other parts of your concern, I think the only answer is only God is judge. St. Paul says we are to judge those IN the Church, not outside it. Why else did He give the 12 thrones to the 12 apostles to judge the 12 tribes of Israel? Christ himself says there is a place called hell and those on His left will go there. So as the PC may emphasize a God with a big bat and this is wrong, God will allow us to decide where we spend eternity. I think the difference between the two views is who is in control?

God is a just God. Yes, He is also merciful. But if my life was such as I denied Him, I become a goat. Not that He is sending me to hell, since He desires all turn from sin and be saved. But nothing is stopping me from turning my back on Him or turning TO Him. I am in control (though I am only given this control by Him) and God being a respecful God allows me to choose. God is a gentleman. He will not force His way into my heart. As scripture says, " I stand at the door knocking".

What does it mean "some measure of salvation"? We either are or we are not saved. We can't have one foot in heaven and one foot in hell. As I said above, only God knows and is judge. What a relief to know, I don't have to worry if others are going to heaven or not. Yes, I have to pray for all and do all I can with the talents I have been given, but it ain't my job to judge.

Paul

I guess that is determined by how one understands the content of salvation. I have been taught that Orthodoxy understands salvation as theosis, divinization. It is a process and some make more of it than others...somewhat like stars differing in their glory. So to say some measure of salvation is to speak of some measure of divinization. It is not a binary condition strictly speaking...at least not in the sense I'm addressing. Yes there is left and right sides, heaven and hell, and we will have our place in one or the other, but within each mode of existence there exists a continuum from faintly luminous to blindly bright or whatever constitutes the continuum of despair and darkness on the other side. This is expressed poorly I know.

[Paul Cowan]

I agree with you on the point of theosis. I also agree with you on the point of varying degrees of torment in hell, or shades of gray there. however, to be in heaven is to be with God. There is no shadow or darkness. He is the light. There may be a back 40 I will be allowed to stand on my big toe on the further most corner of the kingdom, but even there, He is there with me. So, for man to try to say we will be in heaven but perhaps further from Him than others, i think is not accurate as in my back 40 example. God is everywhere all the time. He will not allow sin in His kingdom which is nothing more than shadows darkening his glory. And though the Bible does speak of the "size" of the kingdom, I believe this is man's way of trying to wrap his mind around the concept of what the kingdom will be like.


It is a process and some make more of it than others...somewhat like stars differing in their glory. So to say some measure of salvation is to speak of some measure of divinization.

I think this is only true in the mortal world. Not the world to come.

So, I think we are about saying the same thing.

Paul

[Andreas H.]

This text from St. John of Damascus is extremely informative.

As I see it, it should be possible to carry on the way he argued.

I gave it a try (http://antifo.wordpress.com/2009/03/30/ismaelitische-gottesverstummlung/) in my german language blog.

It builds on top of St. Johns arguing about "Mutilators of God" and is meant to be as a prove against the claim that God gave His word to archangel Gabriel, who shall have given it then to Mohammed. To me this is a grave contradiction as it would mean that Gods had given His Holy Word away to someone who denies the sheer existence of Gods Word. My second point is that, by doing so, God would have deprived Himself of the power to judge. Reason is that someone who gave away his word can't be judge anymore.

If there is interest I'd be glad to translate it to english language.

In Christ,
Andreas

[Nina]

I heard about a book which was banned in a country because of the text. It was a book from St. Nikodimos (sorry I do not remember exactly which one) who said that he saw in a vision that Mohamed was in the deepest place in hell because he misled so many generations with the religion he started. This is paraphrasing and I do not know the title of the book. Maybe you can inquire further about it, or someone here has read it.

[Kosta]

In the book "Orthodox christians and muslims" published by Holy Cross in brookline, it discusses 2 apologetic writings against Islam by Paul of Antioch (a 12th century theologian and bishop). One of these works are entitled, "Letter to some of his muslim friends", and the other called, "the Apology of al-Kindy". Unfortunately it just analyzes the themes of the epistles and doesnt reproduce the actual letters.

In another chapter it published a homily by St Gregory Dekapolites in the 9th century entitled, "A historical sermon by Gregory Dekapolites, Very profitable and most pleasing in many ways, about a vision which a sarracen Once had, and Who, as a result of this, believed and became a martyr for our Lord Jesus Christ".

It says that it is classified as byzantine polemic literature against Islam but reads more like an hagiograpgy. But fascinating none the less.


St Gregory Palamas has debated muslims in 1354 when he was captured by the ottomons and an important epistle of St Gregory remains of this.. He would often debate a relative of the sultan Orhan. Another dialogue the saint had with a group of muslims is recorded in the "Pillars of Orthodoxy" published by Holy Apostles Convent of Colorado.
I dont think these are available online unfortunately.
Mention is made of the St Gregory Palamas epistle in this link (scroll to page 2):
http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~cci/symposium_abstracts.pdf