Is eternity static or dynamic? Can it be both?

[Ryan]

Why can't fallen angels repent? One reason I've read is that their choice was made in eternity; therefore, their decision to oppose God is fixed for eternity. But I've also read of Gregory of Nyssa's view that the saints in eternity constantly progress toward a deeper and deeper knowledge of God, "from glory to glory," ad infinitum. This would imply that some kind of change is possible in eternity. Is eternity static or dynamic? Can anyone lift my confusion on this matter? Thanks.

[Christopher Dombrowski]

Why can't fallen angels repent?

I don't think it's ever been defined that they cannot...




One reason I've read is that their choice was made in eternity; therefore, their decision to oppose God is fixed for eternity.

In terms of such a sentiment having any reason or logic to it, it simply doesn't. I could just as easily say "God created Lucifer and the 'fallen angels' as obedient and good followers of Himself in eternity, and thus their created state is fixed for eternity, and thus their fall was an impossibility". Which just sounds absolutely ridiculous, but it "works" following the "logic" posited in the claim you're speaking of.




But I've also read of Gregory of Nyssa's view that the saints in eternity constantly progress toward a deeper and deeper knowledge of God, "from glory to glory," ad infinitum. This would imply that some kind of change is possible in eternity. Is eternity static or dynamic? Can anyone lift my confusion on this matter? Thanks.

I've never really read any Orthodox authority that seemed to state that change is impossible within eternity. The fall of the angels was a change, and it seemed to have happened in eternity. Further, I have heard some posit that time as removed from eternity as we experience is a consequence of the Fall, and thus Adam and Eve's original sin occurred within eternity. And as you point out, Gregory of Nyssa does speak of the process of theosis continuing even after the Final Judgment in Heaven.

So I don't see anything that indicates that eternity is static and a number of things that seem to suggest that it is dynamic.

[Jonathan Michael]

Excellent question, and I look forward to some well educated replies. In the meantime...


God is described as eternal and unchanging, but we can clearly see - in the same Scriptures that describe God as being unchanging - that He does act in the world; therefore He is not static but very, very dynamic. Yet none of the things God does, I believe, changes who He is as a person. This is fundamentally different to our existance: where dynamism implies some change: if the material world didn't change, constantly, as it does now, then it would be entirely static and dead. But as God is clearly not static, then His existance does not follow this unmoving = unchanging "rule".

Although our nature is different to God's, I always believed that salvation means, on some level, sharing in the nature of God (whilst at all times remaining human). So I suppose that sharing in God's nature also allows us to be dynamic beings, without changing our (new) human nature - which is "eternal". Of course, a constant progression towards a deeper knowledge of God does imply change, so I could be seriously off-course with that last sentence.

[Owen Jones]

It's important to step back and realize for a moment that when speaking of eternity, as with all other theological topics, that we are not observing on object but rather we are talking about some experience that someone has had. Someone has an experience of "something" and calls it eternity. Because, in part, it is so unlike that of the "normal" everyday experience of things. So the definition of eternity is meaningless apart from some experiential aspect of it. I would seize upon the term perfection, which is obviously an experiential concept. One has an experience of complete harmony and unity with created things, perhaps, when the mind is at rest and the will is not struggling against things, and the body is in a state of rest, and the intellect in a state of pure contemplation. But as St. Gregory symbolizes in his marvelous treatise referred to above, this is not a static state. There is also constant movement toward something, and the experience points to something beyond and moves us toward it. The question is, is it a moving target?

[Andreas Moran]

Is eternity static or dynamic?

I was taught that eternity is not static or dynamic but a soul's condition within eternity is dynamic.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Why can't fallen angels repent? One reason I've read is that their choice was made in eternity; therefore, their decision to oppose God is fixed for eternity. But I've also read of Gregory of Nyssa's view that the saints in eternity constantly progress toward a deeper and deeper knowledge of God, "from glory to glory," ad infinitum. This would imply that some kind of change is possible in eternity. Is eternity static or dynamic? Can anyone lift my confusion on this matter? Thanks.

For the Fathers the concept of eternity does not denote an unlimited mechanical time line into the future. Much more than this it represents a renewed spiritual dimension.

So in terms of the relationship of the creation to God eternity will provide that constant dynamic that represents its continual movement towards God. This movement as St Gregory of Nyssa says will be from glory to glory.

In terms of this dynamic itself however there will no longer be any of that instability and corruption which is always found in the present time. Here it needs to be kept in mind that change & movement in themselves are not fallen, that these are inherent aspects of nature created by God. So in the realm of eternity movement will be purified of all its present instability and corruption

In other words in eternity movement will be the central dynamic of created nature towards its Creator. But this movement will no longer manifest itself in an unstable and corruptible way as in the present.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Ryan]

Thank you all for your replies. My question was prompted by my reading of Lossky's Mystical Theology..., which is where I read the explanation about the fall of the angels in eternity.

[Vasiliki D.]

I don't think it's ever been
thus Adam and Eve's original sin occurred within eternity. And as you point out, Gregory of Nyssa does speak of the process of theosis continuing even after the Final Judgment in Heaven.



Sorry, a little side-track. I think I read somehwere that St. Gregory believed that everyone would be saved ... and that St. Basil opposed this opinion and why the had a falling out? It turns out that their Churches opionion on the matter is that of St. Basil not of St. Gergory and he repented on this thinking later in his life ... is this true? If this is true, could he also be wrong on this thinking regarding the angels?

[Alexander Zhdanov]

Hell is static because there is no Life
Alexander

[Panayota K.]

I know this topic is quite old but I've just run into it and I think it's very interesting! When we say eternity do we mean both the realities of heaven and hell? Just recently I read the biography of Elder Joseph the Hesychast and it is written that with his prayers his cousin was freed from hell and moved to heaven. Also I was told that same thing happened to the husband of St Theodora , emperor Theofilos, who went to hell for being enemy to the worshipping of the icons, after she repeatedly prayed for his after-death salvation. Unfortunately I can't find any source to back the last one up. Anyway, the point is that things aren't absolutely static after the end of earthly time.

Panayota

[Aidan Kimel]

God is infinite life, infinite love, infinite being. How can eternity be static?

St Gregory Nyssen: "'We teach ... what we have heard from the prophets ..., that he is king before all ages and will rule through all ages ..., that he is infinite over against the past and over against the future. ... So we must ask [the Arians] why they define God's being by its having no beginning and not by its having no end. ... Indeed, if they must divide eternity, let them reverse their doctrine and reckon endless fururity the mark of deity ..., finding their axioms in what is to come and is real in hope, rather than in what is past and old" (Contra Eunomius 1.666-72; quoted in Robert W. Jenson, Triune Identity, pp. 165-166).

[David Robles]

St Isaac the Syrian in Homily 40 of the 2nd Part says "It is clear that God does not abandon them the moment they fall, and that demons will not remain in their demonic state, and sinners will not remain in their sins; rather he is going to bring them to a single equal state of perfection in relationship to his own Being- to a state in which the holy angels are now, in perfection of love and passionless mind. He is going to bring them into that excellency of will where it will be not as though they were curbed and not free or having stirrings from the Opponent then; rather, they will be in a state of excelling knowledge, with a mind made mature in the stirrings which partake of the Divine outpouring which the blessed creator is preparing in His Grace; they will be perfected in love for Him, with a perfect mind which is above any aberration in all its stirrings" From Isaac of Ninevah, The Second Part, Translated by Sebastian Brock, Corpus Scriptorum Christanorum Orientalium, Lovaniiin Aedibus Peeters, 1995 ISBN 90-6831-709-1
I understand correctly, St Isaac's pious opinion is different from Origen's Apocathastasis or restoration of all things. Origen was condemned as a heretic, Isaac is a saint of the Orthodox Church.
The dogmatic teaching of the Church is that "Behold now is the accepted time; behold now is the day of salvation" 2 Corinthians 6:2 We must work while the day last. Of course If I am going to accept a pious conjecture by anyone, it will be St Isaac. We must pray for the salvation of all men. In the mean time I think is best not to
pry into the counsel of the Almighty and be content with what has been revealed to us.

[Paul Cowan]

St Isaac the Syrian in Homily 40 of the 2nd Part says "It is clear that God does not abandon them the moment they fall, and that demons will not remain in their demonic state, and sinners will not remain in their sins; rather he is going to bring them to a single equal state of perfection in relationship to his own Being- to a state in which the holy angels are now, in perfection of love and passionless mind. He is going to bring them into that excellency of will where it will be not as though they were curbed and not free or having stirrings from the Opponent then; rather, they will be in a state of excelling knowledge, with a mind made mature in the stirrings which partake of the Divine outpouring which the blessed creator is preparing in His Grace; they will be perfected in love for Him, with a perfect mind which is above any aberration in all its stirrings" From Isaac of Ninevah, The Second Part, Translated by Sebastian Brock, Corpus Scriptorum Christanorum Orientalium, Lovaniiin Aedibus Peeters, 1995 ISBN 90-6831-709-1.

I respect St. Isaac, but what's the point of the race if we are all going to heaven anyway? Where does hell and the devil play into this paragraph?

[David Robles]

Like I said, This is St Isaac's pious speculation, based on his encounter with the love of God. He does explain the place of Gehena, the devil etc. Concerning Gehena he says the torment is unbearable. When the saints encounter God in the uncreated light, they experience something ( or rather Someone) who is ineffable.
The saints pray for all mankind, dead, alive, past, present and future. How all of this will play out in the future, God only knows. I read passages like this to remind myself that God's love and Mercy are greater than life! I do not understand what St Isaac saw. But I trust in the Mercy of God.

[Marie-Duquette]

Paul,

Perhaps the "race" implies, not competition, but keeping the eye of the heart
on the goal? So, the point is salvation, not competition with one another, as
each and all tend towards salvation.

[Peter S.]

Paul,

Perhaps the "race" implies, not competition, but keeping the eye of the heart
on the goal? So, the point is salvation, not competition with one another, as
each and all tend towards salvation.

John5:24 and John11:25-26. Those in Christ are saved. The others are going to be judged according to their own law. Some to life and some to fire and condemnation. This is what I have learned and heard.


25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"


24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life

Peter
In Christ

[Paul Cowan]

Paul,

Perhaps the "race" implies, not competition, but keeping the eye of the heart
on the goal? So, the point is salvation, not competition with one another, as
each and all tend towards salvation.

But, that's not how St. Paul describes it.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

[David Robles]

Paul:
St John Chrysostom in his homily 23 on 1 Cor.24 (From the Church Fathers 37 vol collection) in reference to 'know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize?' ; states that Now this he saith not as though here also one only out of many would be saved; far from it, but to set forth the exceeding diligence which it is our duty to use.
We most always go to the Fathers for the interpretation of scripture, even when what we read 'seems' obvious.

[Theophrastus]

I respect St. Isaac, but what's the point of the race if we are all going to heaven anyway? Where does hell and the devil play into this paragraph?
The "apokatastasis" usually attributed (however falsely or correctly) to Origen is an apokatastasis in which all will return to the Origin (God) regardless of their free-will inclinations: God will someone "force" all into heaven.

St. Isaac might be talking about something very different. St. Isaac could be speaking about an apokatastasis in which one's free-will is never negated. St. Isaac might be saying that God will never give up on urging all to re-pent and re-orient their free-wills, away from sin, and towards healing. And since God is a bit more patient than we are, God will not stop at this endeavour -- and so, eventually, even the most hardened heart will freely choose to move towards health and away from sin. I believe St. Gregory's version of apokatastasis also maintained the integrity of the free-will.

So, the point of the race is that, as long as you continue to orient yourself towards sin, the more you suffer. The slower you run, the longer lasting will be your suffering. The faster you run to God, however, the faster you heal.

[Aidan Kimel]

Perhaps of interest is the judgment of Elder Cleopa:


We know well from solid testimonies of Holy Scripture that for evildoers the torments of hell will be eternal. ... Truly, God is forgiving and long-suffering towards those who fall into sin in this life, for the time of our correction is now, in this life, and the acquisition of His forgiveness depends on our own repentance. In the life on the other side of the grave, however, we no longer are able to repent, to change our minds, given that there God does not judge us according to His omnipotence and goodness, but in accord with His impartiality and righteousness, rewarding each according to his deeds. If God were to forgive all the sins of men without justice or fairness, what would be the point of continually alarming us with the terror of the eternal torments if, in fact, they didn't exist? How is it possible for God to tell us lies instead of the truth? ... God offers eternal joy to the righteous, who struggled for a time to carry out good works here on earth, but as a just and righteous God, He also chastises eternally the ungodly that transgressed in this temporal life. Why is it so? Because the wounds incurred from sin that are not healed in this life through the appropriate repentance will remain infected eternally in the presence of God. ... It must be clear that he who dies in grave and disastrous sins is separated from God forever and in particular will not be able, in the next life, to be amended. In the life beyond the grave his sins will remain with him eternally and thus the torments will also continue to exist forever. (The Truth of Our Faith, pp. 213-217)

On the other hand, Elder Cleopa recognizes that prayer for the dead is efficacious for their removal from Hades to Heaven, but with one qualification:


It is indeed possible for someone to be redeemed from perdition, but not through the purgatorial fire as the Roman Catholics content (their offering of expiation presented for the living and the dead notwithstanding. The Lord, as ruler of the heavens, the earth and the infernal regions has the power to remove a soul from Hades, as Scripture testifies: 'The Lord killeth and maketh alive; He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up.'

The power and sacrifice of Christ, which is offered to whosoever seeks it, is unlimited and His goodness so great that only He is able to rescind the eternal anguish of man. We know that God asks that we love our fellow man and looks on this love with joy. We we are truly praying for others, there is nothing greater than love. God hears the prayer of the Church very clearly, especially when the prayers of Christians are united with the suppliant voices of angels in the heavens, and that of the Lady Theotokos. ...

Between Hades and Paradise there does exist a great chasm indeed, as our Lord has told us. Yet, this chasm does not have the power to impede the mercy of our great God, Who hears our prayers for the reposed. We do not suppose, as do the Roman Catholics that there exists a purgatorial fire, but we say that only for those who since very severely (or mortally) and did not confess their sin is the passage form Hades to Paradise impossible. For those who sinned more lightly this pathway is not definitely closed, given that in the future judgment each one's pace, either in heaven or in hell, will be decided definitively, inasmuch as after this judgment someone whose orientation was Hades can no longer pass over into Paradise. For those who sinned unto death, our prayers are completely futile. ... We do not pray for those who have committed sins against the Holy Spirit, for such sins will not be forgiven, neither in this life, nor in the one to come. Rather, we pray for those who committed lighter sins for which forgiveness--when we pray--is also possible in the other world, inasmuch as we love them to inherit eternal life. (pp. 127-129)

[David Robles]

Thephrastus;
I think your explanation is right on! But still, even St Isaac's opinion, which he himself offers very humbly and not in a dogmatic way, is pious reflection and it is NOT the official dogma of the Orthodox Church. We must be aware of this less we diminish our effort in getting closer to God. A very good book to read about this theme is 'The Spiritual World of St Isaac the Syrian' by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev, Cistercian Publications, 2000. And St Isaac stresses forcefully that the torment of Gehenna is unbearable. We do not want to even think about a second chance after death. Let us with all diligence lay down all weight of sin, and run the race as the books of Hebrews counsels us.
That St Gegory of Nyssa did not teach apokatastasis, but maintained the integrity of man's free will, as you correctly point out, is brilliantly proven by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos in chapter 8 of his book, 'Life after Death' Trans. by Esther Williams, Birth of the Theotokos Monastery, 1996. The fathers do see something though, something wonderful!

[David Robles]

I think Elder Cleopa himself would defer to such great fathers as St Isaac and St Gregory of Nyssa. We must take care of our salvation with fear and trembling. St Isaac insists though that those in Heaven will get far more than they deserve, and those in Hell will not be punished as harshly as they deserve , all because the love and the mercy of God to whom the idea of requital is alien.