Protestant converts and praying to the saints [Archive]

Paul Cowan

23-12-2008, 09:55 PM

I have been looking at the Orthodox faith for a while now. A lot of it makes sense to me, and I am considering taking my exploring a little further.

Coming from a Protestant background there is one area that I struggle with: the veneration of Mary and the Saints. So I have two questions:

1) What is the real distinction, in practice, between veneration and worship? Sometimes I can't tell much difference, especially when it comes to Mary.

2) Even if intellectually I am ok with this practice, it still makes me feel uneasy. Are there Protestant converts on the board who struggled with this, and how did you overcome it?

BTW I'm not trying to criticize, but find out more, especially on the practical/experiential side, as I just don't seem to quite get it.

Dear Keith, Welcome.

The quick answer is, it takes a while.

You can do a 'search' on this forum and find many answers to your question.

We worship God. We venerate things. God is uncreated. Mary (who we call Theotokos) is a created being. She is the most venerated 'thing' we honor. She had the singular priveledge of holding God in her womb.

This forum can answer many of your questions. I highly encourage you though to see a priest in your community and speak directly to him to avoid any confusion to your questions and to not allow others to hijack your questions or their answers. We call the seeking process catachesm.

Do though use the search feature in the forum. It is very helpful

Paul a fellow convert

Karl Klimmeck

23-12-2008, 10:24 PM

Hello Keith,

I became orthodox this summer. A monk of mount athos explained to me some times ago the saints in his church. It has been like an introduction to members of his family. Every saint has had his struggles and some are more connected with my struggles, than other. These become friends to me. Barsanuphius of Optina, Johan Kronstadtski, Gregory Palamas are for me important. They will make intercessions for me and I will make intercessions for them, as I do intercessions for friends and family members.

Sometimes the texts read: Holy father N.N. save me... . But that is an abbreviation. Christ will save, but through the intercessions of the fathers.

In Christ
Karl Johannes

Herman Blaydoe

23-12-2008, 11:16 PM

I have been looking at the Orthodox faith for a while now. A lot of it makes sense to me, and I am considering taking my exploring a little further.

Coming from a Protestant background there is one area that I struggle with: the veneration of Mary and the Saints. So I have two questions:

1) What is the real distinction, in practice, between veneration and worship? Sometimes I can't tell much difference, especially when it comes to Mary.

What is the difference between worship and paying your respects to the Queen? Same difference but the Theotokos is even more worthy of respect.

2) Even if intellectually I am ok with this practice, it still makes me feel uneasy. Are there Protestant converts on the board who struggled with this, and how did you overcome it?

Yes. If the Queen walked up to you, would you shake her hand, and say "how's it goin' Mum"? Or do you treat her differently? The biggest thing is to realize that much that is called "Protestantism" is nothing more than a negative reaction to Catholicism. Anything that seems "too catholic" is to be rejected by Protestants. Much that was good in Catholicism was also thrown out, and that definitely needs to be overcome.

BTW I'm not trying to criticize, but find out more, especially on the practical/experiential side, as I just don't seem to quite get it.

Been there, done that, took the picture, bought the T-shirt, which is now in the rag bag.

For us Americans, reverence is what we show to our American Flag, placing our hands over our hearts and standing erect when it goes by. That is not worship, although Jehovah's Witnesses beg to differ. They can't see any difference at all, but they get a few other things wrong as well.

Robert Hegwood

23-12-2008, 11:27 PM

At the risk of muddying the waters there is both great difference and little difference.

This is because modern Engish vocaulary does not make a few of the necessary distinctions that exist in languages such as Greek or Latin.

To worship is to honor, to show respect towards someone/something worthy of honor. To salute the flag, for example is an honoring of this sort, as it the way it is handled and cared for...taking one's hat off in the presence of a lady as a gesture of respect, or to stand when a judge enters the courtroom, or saying sir or ma'am to one's elders. These are all varieties of showing honor. Now there is among all the various ways we express honor an expression of honor that is reserved to God alone but how to distinguish it in practice, at least in informal settings is not always easy. This is because our bodies are capable of only a certain range of gestures and there are basics of address/petition that are more or less the same regardless of whether one asks something of God or of an earthly potentate. Our language and culture frame the externals of what we say and do.

Functionally it works pretty much like family intercommunications. The way we speak to our siblings and our parents have much the same form and content most of the time but certain occasions reveal at heart the way we communiate, relate to our parents is quite different from that of our siblings. This distinction would be more evident if our culture was more formal than it is at present....think of how a child in more traditional times in the Orient might approach his father or grandfather. There were protocols that governed this. I have been told that until the past generation or so, for example, in Korea a child greeted his parents or grandparents by kowtowing and touching his forehead to their feet.

The distinctions lie primarily in the relationship being expressed...how you address and interact with big brother or sister just is not the same for one's parents. That is a seperate category. In the church from time to time one will hear expressions that are used for God and His worship that have no parallels with the honor show to the saints, and there there are others that seem to overlap.

For example, one will often hear the expression, "Holy Theotokos, save us". This really jars a Protestant trained ear, even years down the road. You have to be present at a number of services to hear its expanded context ,"save us by your prayers." So one has to be aware that there are limits upon how much understanding of Orthodox practice can be gained by snapshot experiences....its sort of like shoes. They might look nice in the store, but you have to wear them a bit to be sure they are not going to hurt your feet in the long run. So to properly get a sense of Orthodox veneration and worship takes sustained exposure, not theological/experiencial snapshots, as helpful as those can be.

With regard to "getting over" hesitancy the key problem was not so much showing honor but expecting them to be aware of /hear me if I made petition. It seemed to be making them both omnipresent and the Flash all at once. How could Mary process much less respond to the multiple millions of requests sent her way each day? Even allowing for expanded capacites by being with the Lord, it still seemed impossible unless the saints were functionally omniscient as well.

My answer worked for me at three levels. First in Orthodoxy we do not come alone to God nor exist alone in relation to God. Christ is the head of the Church, His body and through Him we are also members of one another. The unity Christ's body is not subject to the power of death. Our membership in one another is unaffected by death. It is united as a Body by His Spirit and likewise not subject to fracture in the bodily death of any given member. If I injure my left thumb, my whole right hand comes instantly to assist. My thumb's pain focuses the attention of the Body right there and the other hand gets to work to help. Now in this help my other digets are not individually thinking about what they should do and how they should coordinate...rather my head takes care of all that. It directs the ministrations of the other hand. And so far as I know so it is in Christ.

Also we have the example of the woman with the issue of blood...her faith gave her courage to touch just the hem of His garment and she was healed. How many "words" did she utter? Wasn't her act of touching Christ's garment itself her full prayer. So what then do we say of those who dwell forever in Christ's radiant proximity, do they not also communicate His grace every bit as effectively as his physical clothing? Perhaps (to wax simplistic) it is sufficeint to touch the saint in prayer, without words...just a prayerful heart in need in order to be "heard".

In Orthodoxy we soon discover we are not alone but stand in relation and communion with a radiant heaven of saints as well as all the other Orthodox living with us yet...one body untied by His body and blood, all members of each other, all praying the prayers of the church, singing the hymns of the Church and carrying forward the worship of the Church.

Finally there is the issue of hesitency itself. If you already "consent" mentally but have yet to act then this is a question of commitment. It's like standing at the tip of the diving board over the pool. You can bounce and calculate all day long...but there are only two choice you can ultimately make...to dive into the water or to climb back down and walk away. If you've come to swim in the deep end of the pool you have to let go and leap away from the board. You have to commit to the act. Once you have actually prayed to a saint asking his/her help there is no rewinding time...and as the saying goes...in for a dime, in for a dollar.

Actually earnestly asking the help of a saint for me was my personal swimming of the Bosphorus (or the Volga if one prefers). The moment I decided to make some feeble petition to St. Seraphim was the moment theory and self-education disolved into action, into deed. From that moment I was committed to becoming Orthodox.

Paul Cowan

23-12-2008, 11:47 PM

Once you have actually prayed to a saint asking his/her help there is no rewinding time...and as the saying goes...in for a dime, in for a dollar.

Actually, I think it is in for a pence, in for a pound. But I am not an Englishman. ^;^

Pre-decimal, it was 12 pence per shilling and 20 shillings per pound = 240. After UK went decimal in 1971, 100 pence = 1 pound.
Pence is plural for penney. So maybe you are more right than I thought.

I like the diving board analogy. Some people just dip their big toe in the water so long it swells up and floats away.

Vasiliki D.

23-12-2008, 11:59 PM

Hello dear friend who is researching Orthodoxy ....

My response will be simple and wont speak to your intellect ... there are plenty of people on this site that will approach you with correct responses that speak to your mind ... and your logic.

If you choose, go to a local orthodox church or speak to a friend who is orthodox and ask them for a CD copy of the "Paraklisis" ... or the the "Canon to the Virgin Mary" ... the following then requires a leap of faith ...

Please play this CD in your car or at home for about a week, at least once a day ... dont try to understand it .. just listen to it in good faith and nothing more ....

At the end of that week ... ask Christ in a prayer (or if you dare) ask the Virgin Mary to reveal to you if this orthodox stuff is nonsence or has merit ... She will reveal it to you on her own through your heart.

The few (literally few have taken this challenge) who have used this approach have changed their opinion of the Virgin Mary without logic - I have SEEN true miracles working through the paraklisis ... I hope you try this approach as well as the other responses ....

In Christ and with christian love.
Vasiliki - Merry Christmas!

Keith Cheesman

24-12-2008, 02:30 AM

Thanks to everyone who has replied :)

Robert, thank you for your long and considered post. I think I will have to re-read it several times to get the most out of it. I like your discussion of the limitation of our expression and the family analogy, I think that helps.

I realise that one cannot be indecisive forever, and that knowledge sometimes has to come from doing not just studying. On the other hand, I don't want to do a flying bellyflop only to discover I don't really like the water! It is more that I don't want to rush things, but rather take my time to ensure that I do both the Orthodox Church and myself justice.

Vasiliki, I like your idea. I think I will give it I try, if I can get hold of the CD. Perhaps there is somewhere where I can order it online? Otherwise, like you say, I'll have to try to find someone who has a copy.

Paul Cowan

24-12-2008, 02:42 AM

Vasiliki D.

24-12-2008, 02:59 AM

I have a hard time with this "challenge". It reminds me too much of the Mormon 'Burning in the Bosom' test. But then again, perhaps I am not reading what you are typing. Surely there is a better way for converts to accept the Theotokos into their lives? I lean more towards time and faith.

Paul

Hey dont go thinking I am at odds with you Paul :) <-- Smiley face. Look its not mormon thinking at all ... I have PERSONALLY witnessed Panaghia perform her miracle through her Son in this simple act ... the music of the Church is a mystery in itself as are the prayers ... this is not voo-doo. I had a friend that referred to the Virgin as "that woman" her hatred was unbelievable ... she hated her with a passion BUT claimed to be a Christian ... she had started to consider orthodoxy and I gave her the Paraklisis to listen to (she didnt know what it was btw) ... within a fortnight A MIRACLE occured ... she agreed to come to sleep over at a monastery with me ... the name of the Monastery is Gorgoepikoos (She who is Quick to Hear) ... in the meantime, she had listened to the chanting and said "its really nice but I dont understand what it says" ... on the way to the monastery in the car, I explained to her the name of the monastery and what the name of Panagia means. She listened and with a softer tone said ... "I just dont understand .. thats all"! Then, we stayed at the monastery ... in the morning we went to the Liturgy ... after the Liturgy she ran to me and hugged me ... and said, "Panaghia helped me understand it" ... I was perplexed ... she said, "In the liturgy my inner soul just changed ..." ... to cut a long story short - what is NOT possible for man is possible with God ..it takes a willing spirit .. faith and the prayers of the Holy Mother ... sometimes logic is a Western based thinking ... it doesnt completely relie on the metaphyscial world of faith and prayer :)

God Bless ... PS. This occured last year :) and a doubel PS. I forgot to mention on the drive in i said to her .. if you are having difficulty understanding or accepting the Mother of God .. ASK HER .. her name is Quick to hear so she will be Quick to Answer you ....

Owen Jones

24-12-2008, 03:56 AM

Vasiliki D.

24-12-2008, 04:16 AM

My advice, for what it's worth? If it bothers you, don't do it. There is no forcing in Orthodoxy. No one is going to force you to make the sign of the cross, or do prostrations (unless it is a penance from your confession, but even then, the priest is not going to stand over you with a whip to make sure you do it!). Latch on to something that really does attract you and do that, or focus on that one thing. The other stuff, just let it ride for now.

Take what you can use and leave the rest (at least for now).

Not bad advise :-) That is exactly right there is no forcing in Orthodoxy ... we all contribute what we know and then we are free to make up our own minds about what we have shared ... I was reading I think that when our soul feels compressed and under pressure (a feeling much like it is contracting) by something we are hearing or experiencing (with matters of the faith) then it is a sign that perhaps what we are hearing is not good for us at that point in time or is an attack from the evil one ... the discernment can be made through a Spiritual Father of course but many people dont have one of those either .. so, all in all ... my personal belief is that if a person truly is genuine God and only God knows the heart ... and He provides... He says to Seek first the Kingdom of God and all else will be provided ... He is wonderful!

Andreas Moran

24-12-2008, 04:14 PM

I can't add much to the excellent posts that have been written, but just to say that, although I didn't really convert (I wasn't religious before I became Orthodox - just nominally C of E), I never had a problem about Mary. God chose her from all the women who will ever have lived to be the one to bear God the Word made flesh (which the term 'theotokos' describes). Mary is the mother of our Lord: 'And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?' - Luke 1:43. If God (and Gabriel and Elizabeth) thought she was so special shouldn't we? 'All generations' should call her blessed (Luke 1:48). Perhaps Protestants don't read Luke 1:30-55! (Wink!)

Father David Moser

24-12-2008, 04:26 PM

I did convert from a fairly active and pious evangelical protestant faith. I never really had a problem with the veneration of the saints nor with asking their intercessions. As a protestant, I know that there were many people of great faith in the protestant community held in honor (even venerated) due to their righteous lives (CS Lewis and Watchman Nee to name two - there are many more but memory fails at the moment) and so I never really had any trouble venerating those who by their lives were shown to be saints. Neither did I have any trouble asking my friends to pray for me (a common practice) and as I became friends with these saints, I had no trouble asking my new friends to pray for me and help me in my spiritual life. It was never really an issue for me, rather it was simply and extension of what I already did as a protestant towards those who were alive and then when you apply the Resurrection and the fact that death is defeated and no longer separates those of us who are in the Church and so living in the Resurrection, well - it just seemed normal.

Fr David Moser

Fyodor Vaskovsky

24-12-2008, 06:49 PM

As far as veneration of saints, esp the Blessed Mother of God, is concerned, it should be understood that Church is a great family united in love and there are senior members of that family, as well as junior ones. Paying respect to your mother is nothing out of the ordinary, is it? We just come to love all those people who fulfilled God's law, who loved God with all their might, who suffered for His name. You know, I used to be a Baptist, though here in Belarus even Baptists can resemble Orthodox :). When I came back to the faith of my fathers, it sounded weird to me. At first, I could not even read the Akathist to the Mother of God because I thought it was too much. But then I came to realise that She was unique, for she bore Him who created everything. I simply began loving Her and other saints.

It's just a matter of your personal choice, but try to avoid "legal approach" to veneration/worship. If we pray to the Mother of God o the saints, this does not necessarily mean we do not glorify God. Isn't it pleasant for God to see His mother and His friends praised and thanked? What do you think about that?

Vasiliki D.

25-12-2008, 01:08 AM

I think the last three posts by Andrew, Fr Moses and yourself demonstrate how much love the Orthodox have for the Saints and especially for the Theotokos (whos prayers and intercessiopns to her son and Lord keep our world) and I really liked the way you captured the spirit of veneration in just two paragraphs; I would really like to be able to cut and paste your comment with other people that I know if you permit me to?

Fyodor Vaskovsky

25-12-2008, 01:05 PM

I would really like to be able to cut and paste your comment with other people that I know if you permit me to?

Permission granted. I would also like to share my experience reading the lives of the saints. Soon after my wife and I returned to Orthodoxy, we bought "The Lives of Saints" by St. Dimitrius of Rostov in 12 vol. This is one of the most useful books I have ever read. There are lives of saints who are commemorated for every single day of the liturgical year. Reading these books, I really "fell in love" with many of these extraordinary people!

Andreas Moran

26-12-2008, 02:17 AM

The Lives of Saints" by St. Dimitrius of Rostov in 12 vol.

I have seen that the first seven volumes are available in English. My wife tells me (because I can't read Russian) that St Dmitri says some Apostles preached in England including St Peter (29 June pp 649-650), St Simon Zealotes (10 May p 299) and St Aristobulus (16 March pp321-322).

Father David Moser

26-12-2008, 03:11 AM

I have seen that the first seven volumes are available in English.

And the others are actually translated and ready to be published as soon as the funds are available to do so. I have the first seven and it is a blessing to ready them.

Fr David Moser

Vasiliki D.

26-12-2008, 03:14 AM

Permission granted. I would also like to share my experience reading the lives of the saints. Soon after my wife and I returned to Orthodoxy, we bought "The Lives of Saints" by St. Dimitrius of Rostov in 12 vol. This is one of the most useful books I have ever read. There are lives of saints who are commemorated for every single day of the liturgical year. Reading these books, I really "fell in love" with many of these extraordinary people!

Thanks, as a side track, I read the other night the life of the hermitess Photini of the Jordan River, who died sometime in 1928. This little book was an amazing read ... and I highly recommend it ... so simple in its language and just really nice.

I dont think she is an official saint of the churhc ..so it reads more like a story!

Mary

26-12-2008, 03:18 AM

Dear Keith,

Welcome!

It's been two and a half years since I was baptised. I tested orthodoxy for about 3 months before becoming a catechumen. You see, I thought I already knew everything I needed to know. But there was still something missing in my life. In talking with my friend, the most obvious things that were lacking where the physical expressions of my faith. The orthodox fast regularly all through the year, and then there's the two Lents. I'd only knew of one. I'd never fasted in my entire life. I thought that was just for super spiritual people, and I wasnt' one of those. And then there's this regular cycle of prayers and scripture readings. Then, there's the sign of the cross that you can make...

Those were so non-threatening and that's where I began. Making the sign of the cross was the strangest part, but once I got the hang of it, I stopped feeling weird.

I didn't understand about the saints till i started attending a parish. I understood the logic behind asking them to pray for me... it was explained to me that it is pretty much the same as asking your friend to pray for you.

This may seem weird, but when you walk into a church and it's full of icons... like a family photo album.... at first, you dont' know anyone. Then, as you learn about them, you start to recognize their icons. The weird part is the kind of connections that you develop with these saints. It's identical to the kind of connections that you develop with the flesh and blood people around you. Some you connect with instantly. Some you have a great deal of respect for, but you can't hang out with them and be buddies. Some you ask for a certain kind of help and others, you ask for other kinds of help. Some you need touch base with every day or many times a day, but others, you just meet them once a year.

I was not at all expecting such a kind of organic relationship with people I've never met. It doesn't cease to amaze me. But it ties in with what others have said... you cannot force a relationship to happen. If you have trouble understanding stuff about the Mother of God, you can't force yourself to swallow it all. But it doesnt' matter. Some you become friends with instantly, and with others, it takes time. But, it's always about a relationship. That's what makes it so exciting, and also so frustrating, because you cannot make any kind of rules about relationships...

unless the basics work - be real, don't pretend, be respectful, be kind, listen carefully, say please and thank you.... I don't know. It just happens. You just gotta jump off that diving board.

in Christ,
Mary.

Vasiliki D.

26-12-2008, 03:33 AM

It's been two and a half years since I was baptised....

The Leap of Faith :) Well said btw. Moving account of your relationship :)

Keith Cheesman

29-12-2008, 02:17 PM

Thanks Mary, I can identify with a lot of the stuff in your post.

Anthony

29-12-2008, 02:18 PM

I also come via Protestantism (Anglicanism), though I was only a practising Anglican for a little over a year, so my Protestantism probably never went very deep.

I remember at one time I used to reason as follows (to myself and others): we are monotheists and worship God alone; we worship Christ because He is God, and we venerate the saints because they are in a sense Christ (Christ is in them).

An important point was when I realized that it is not by God's grudging permission that we venerate the saints, but that it is His good pleasure. As it says in one troparion (to St Nectarius, though I think of it as a subtext to every hymn to the saints): "Glory to Him who has glorified you". It is not as if God has to conserve His glory because there is only so much to go round. Instead He pours it out on the saints, and is glorified when they are glorified. (Fyodor Vaskovky's post expressed this much better.)

For all that, it was only gradually that prayer to saints became an important part of my experience - when I discovered that they really do answer prayer, (surprise surprise, but I can be very slow at times). I am still only starting to learn, and am being helped in this by many of the posts about the saints here on Monachos.

Jim McQuiggin

29-12-2008, 03:11 PM

Dear Keith,
Your struggle is indeed a common one. For me, too, the question of honour and veneration of the saints including the Holy Theotokos was the most difficult hurdle. But here's what happened to me - and undoubtedly something parallel but very different will happen with you.

I remember clearly one Saturday evening during Great Vespers that for no apparent reason, I found myself contemplating the Crucifixion. I reflected on Jesus' words to John, entrusting Mary to the apostle's care. I had to wonder if Jesus would have said those words to me. Can you imagine the honour? My answer to myself was a resounding, No - I'm simply not worthy of that. However, my thoughts continued, "How can I show honour to the Mother of my Lord, and in that way serve and honour Him?" It was an easy step then to begin to converse with her. Once that barrier was gone, the rest followed quickly.

However, it's still only fair to say that I don't always rely on the saints as many Orthodox do. I think it's a bit of an independent spirit that needs to be brought into subjection.

As others have said, take your time. Enjoy what God has already shown you about the truth and depth of the Orthodox faith. He will continue to lead you.

Jim

Matthew

29-12-2008, 11:34 PM

Vasiliki, I like your idea. I think I will give it I try, if I can get hold of the CD. Perhaps there is somewhere where I can order it online? Otherwise, like you say, I'll have to try to find someone who has a copy.

You can read the Paraklesis service while also listening to a Real Audio stream of it here:
http://www.goarch.org/chapel/chant/paraklesis/index_html

Fyodor Vaskovsky

30-12-2008, 04:35 PM

Vasiliki D.

30-12-2008, 11:50 PM

Contemplating on what has been written, I found myself thinking of how it feels to be a born Protestant converting to Orthodoxy. I understand that it was much easier for me who lives in a mainly Orthodox country. However, I had troubles with venerating saints. How much more difficult it might appear for you, Keith! My opinion is that Protestants in the West are attracted to the Orthodoxy intellectually, in the first place. It is like a mystery for them, something hard to disentangle. But Orthodoxy is much more than a sophisticated philosophical system. It is encounter with Christ and the plenitude of the Church both in Heavens and on Earth. It is the way of life! On the contrary, Protestantism is something like intellectual exercise. Protestants often have this rigorous Soli Deo gloria and Sola Scriptura approach, and that is probably why it is so difficult for you to get the idea of venerating saints. Am I right?

Thank you for this small but very precise comment.

It is interesting that you captured in a nutshell, something that I couldnt quite put my finger on - agutt feeling and what i was trying to figure out for myself for months now (since being introduced to the concept of the convert) and now, reflecting on this ... yes, it IS true.

The "converts" (please, no offence) are very faithful and loyal to Christ and even love him more than we do ... but it DOES come across sometimes in conversations that you need to PROVE everything by QUOTING from some sort of text for it to be viable and accepted by them ... yet, a cradle orthodox tends to just trust the authenticity of what they hear without requiring it to be proven by a book ... forgive me ..this is an observation and not a criticism .. cradle or not cradle we are all orthodox and we all have positives ann we all have negatives!

Likewise, I can see a convert coming into orthodoxy could get very frustrated with us cradle because of the fact we havent read a single book from the Nicene fathers for example and its impossible for them to fathom how we can call ourselves practising Orthodox when we (not all) dont even read!

The good thing is ... like many have pointed out in many other threads and posts .. none of this is what SAVES a person ... it merely occupies the intellect until we die :-) What saves us is our repentance, confessiona and communion with the Holy Trinity through the person of Christ.

Keith Cheesman

31-12-2008, 03:43 AM

Protestants often have this rigorous Soli Deo gloria and Sola Scriptura approach, and that is probably why it is so difficult for you to get the idea of venerating saints. Am I right?

Of course you are correct. For a protestant to convert to Orthodoxy requires a complete overhaul of their beliefs and worldview. Currently I am in this strange place where I still have some Protestant beliefs but also accept some Orthodox beliefs and the two often contradict. Pity my western rational mind! :)

It think this is why Christians from different traditions have problems communicating, to change your mind about one belief often requires a rethink of all of your other beliefs. Most people resist this consciously or sub-consciously.

Paul Cowan

31-12-2008, 04:07 AM

If you will indulge me, here is the first paragraph of my soon to be released (oh God please soon) diary of my trip to the Holy Mountain.

I am an Orthodox Christian convert from many Protestant backgrounds. From each belief system I attended I was taught that the previous faith(s) was wrong. Coming from so many “wrong” belief systems, I was struck by the thought that if Hebrews 13:8 is true “Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.” then so is the Church He founded at Pentecost. My question; where is this First Church? The answer, wherever it lay, would seal my spiritual future. Through my wife, we found it. It lives in the Eastern Orthodox Faith; The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church based on the Seven Ecumenical Councils.

Once I had this revelation, I turned my back on the PC and though I still had demonic doubts/ temptations/ obstacles to overcome, I never looked back. And believe me, I was as anti-catholic as they came. Of course I did not know about the EO growing up so RC was all I could rebel against.

Paul

Robert Hegwood

31-12-2008, 04:28 AM

The wall for me was breached the first time I encountered Orthodoxy back in the late 70s when I was a baby but very enthusiastic evangelical charismatic. My cousin had married a Greek Orthodox man and she had to convert before they married...which was weird to me then...I thought any converting should move in the other direction. That said, I was curious about Orthodox believes and she lent me one of her few books (Orthodox Church by Bishop Kalistos Ware...who was just Timothy Ware then). I found the history interesting but could not grasp much of it. One idea stuck though that the whole Church, those alive now and those from times past are all members of the same body, Christ's Body and death has no power to sever or diminish those bonds that united every member to each other and to the Head. So I could comprehend the notion of asking the righteous departed generally as a group for their prayers, what I could not understand or defend at the time was the idea of asking any specific reposed person for their prayers. It seemed to invite deception...evil spirits could easily mimic being a saint and someone could easily be fooled and led astray.

Then I read a book by Fr. Seraphim Rose which made me very angry at what I considered the ignorance and arrogance of some Orthodox Christians...the very idea they they were the Church in any exclusive sense or that what we were receiving as Charismatics was delusional and not the grace of the Spirit....the seeming hubris of it all. Well obviously I got older and had a change of heart by the next time I encountered Orthodoxy having spent 21 years as a Charismatic and 17 before that as a Baptist.

When I finally got began to read Orthodox material and seek counsel of a priest it took about 3 weeks of reading and conversation to work through most of my issues. The clincher for me though was reading the life of St. Seraphim of Sarov. I saw in him the kind of Christian I wanted to be and I saw no way to get anywhere near where he was without walking the same path of faith he did...the faith I then held could not get me or anyone else there. So I called the priest, told him I wanted to convert. He was very happy at the news and promptly told me no. At the time I lived in pretty isolated circumstances in Micronesia and the priest said there was no way I could participate in parish life or undergo a proper catechism...but he and his parish would pray for me. It took three years of waiting, but eventually the doors were opened for me and a friend who had come to the Orthodox faith also during that time.

We were received in Holy Baptism the Saturday after Pentecost in 1998...I think that is right...if not its close.

Paul Cowan

31-12-2008, 04:45 AM

This might be an appropriate place to invite folks to visit the Orthodox Converts (http://www.monachos.net/forum/group.php?groupid=9)social group.

Andreas Moran

31-12-2008, 09:34 AM

Keith Cheesman

31-12-2008, 11:08 PM

Two comments were made to me when I was approaching Orthodoxy. I'd begun by reading as much as I could about it, and my wife said, 'you're not religious - you're just interested in religion'. The second was by Bishop Eirenaios: 'you must learn to think with your heart'.

The first quote definitely applies to me, if only I could expend as much energy living it as I do thinking about it.

Whilst I am reading about Orthodoxy, I also realize I need to experience it. I have been attending orthodox services and have been looking to incorporate some elements of orthodox worship into my private devotions.

Andreas Moran

31-12-2008, 11:42 PM

if only I could expend as much energy living it as I do thinking about it.

Oh, yes, indeed, me too!

Anna Stickles

01-01-2009, 09:30 PM

The first quote definitely applies to me, if only I could expend as much energy living it as I do thinking about it.

Whilst I am reading about Orthodoxy, I also realize I need to experience it. I have been attending orthodox services and have been looking to incorporate some elements of orthodox worship into my private devotions.

My husband and I were just baptized at Pascha, We converted from a typical evangelic Protestantism. We can both relate to a lot of what has been said in this thread. Probably the two biggest things that have helped us in our conversion process (which is not over yet by any means) is a regular prayer rule at home, particularly the prayers before communion (we started doing some of these even before we joined the Church and were allowed to take communion -Basil's first prayer (http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/main.htm)is especially beautiful, capturing the mind of the Church) and also after we have joined the Church it is a process of coming more and more to depend on and understand in a deeper way the sacramental life of the Church.

Learning to lean on the sacramental life of the Church weans us out of depending on our mind for our faith and allows that faith to sink into the heart in a much deeper way. We learn to lean on something outside ourselves, to live abiding in the Vine. (John 15)

Keith Cheesman

11-01-2009, 11:32 PM

M.C. Steenberg

12-01-2009, 12:19 AM

We pray for and with one another, so as to enter into a communion of love with our fellow men in the embrace of the Holy Trinity. Prayer is, at its highest levels, a true communion; this is not merely a matter of uttering words for, on behalf of, at the behest of or in commemoration of another person -- it is one of uniting fractured creation more wholly in the love of the Father.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Herman Blaydoe

12-01-2009, 12:40 AM

Returning to the original subject, why pray for one another (whether living or dead)? Or to put it another way, if God is going to do what is right and perfect anyway, how is it that our prayers make any difference?

I always thought of this more in terms of prayer having an effect on us rather than God, but that doesn't sit so well with the idea of the Saints interceding for us?

We pray for each other because the Apostles seem to think it is a good idea. The Holy Apostle James, brother of the Lord has this to say on the subject:

Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit. James 5:13-18

How do you think the Apostle James would answer your question based on this? I think he would say that the effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. Don't we believe that the saints are righteous people?

Herman the Pooh

Anna Stickles

12-01-2009, 04:11 AM

if God is going to do what is right and perfect anyway, how is it that our prayers make any difference?

I was asking this same question a while ago. Here was my attempted answer if it helps any.

I have often had doubts about how to pray and even the efficacy of prayer. My dilemma has gone like this: If I simply ask God for what I want, this is selfish and self-willed. It is not praying in God's will and so how can I think my prayers are anything or that He will answer them. Also, if God is going to accomplish His will anyway, why pray? What does He need me for?

In reading the Saints I've come to a somewhat better understanding, although, who can really understand such a mystery as prayer. In starting to get a grasp on God's Economia it seems to me that God does nothing on earth apart from doing it through Christ, and in practical terms that means through His Body, His Church. Therefore nothing on earth is accomplished except through prayer. God never waves a magic wand and simply forces His will on creation, it is always through those submitted to Him that He works - The Fall was Adam's free choice and Adam's redemption is always accomplished through the free choices of us who are of Adam.

Christ, and we in Christ, intercede for the world. This intercession can be something internal, or it can be an external action. Mary's or Abraham's obedience was an intercession just as much as any saint's prayers. Prayer in this sense is a willing participation in the will of God, whether in spirit, soul, mind or body. The most complete prayer includes all of these. Elder Paisios says this:

"the transmitter and the receiver (that is Christ and our soul) must be tuned in the same frequency; the monk will do whatever Christ tells him, and Christ will do whatever the monk asks for, provided their acts, their "frequency," is the same
Continuous prayer, I think, is nothing more then having all our parts constantly tuned to and responding in this frequency. This is one of the reasons we learn to pray using the saint's prayers. They are tuned to the right frequency, they ask for the right things in the right way.

In our personal requests it is good to pray from our heart, but to leave how God answers up to Him. It is not wrong to pray our desires as long as we are not trying to manipulate God by our prayers. This happens when we desire a certain outcome more then God's will, or we think that we know better then God how best to solve the problem or meet the need. Underlying all our requests must be a heart that accepts every outcome in faith and if God does not answer according to our desire, then it is we who were blinded by passion -God in His goodness knew what was best. In this we see that there is no prayer that God does not honor or answer. He honors the intent of a good heart, even if the mind is clueless and on an alien frequency. If the intent of our heart was wrong, God will send some correcting influence and if we are attentive we can accept this as our answer.

Sophia

12-01-2009, 05:43 PM

Keith,

I agree with and share the feeling of many who have posted here. I converted from Protestantism about 4 years ago (I believe).

The two books that were very helpful for me were Sola Scriptura by Fr. John Whiteford and The Orthodox Veneration of Mary The Birth Giver of God by St. John Maximovitch. I believe that I read both of them in single sittings. They helped remove my two biggest hesitations to converting.

As others have said, it is very beneficial to be active in a parish. Attend any services you can - I love the Paraklesis. Also, get to know the clergy around you and visit any monastaries near you. Getting to know and seeing who the priests were that I met really opened my eyes.

It's kind of silly but when I was first introduced to Orthodoxy, I had been going to a Protestant church and been trying for almost a month to get an appointment to talk with the church's pastor, or his assistant with no sucess. As I met Orthodox priests and they gave me their business cards, I was amazed to see office, home, cell phone numbers, emails, church address and often home addresses listed to. They told that I could call them anytime I needed to talk. It took a few months, but when I did call, they not only answered but helped me more than I ever expected.

I would also agree that you should check out the converts social group. It helped me to realize that I wasn't as alone as I had thought in my journey of conversion.

Unworthy servant of Christ,
Sophia

Keith Cheesman

12-01-2009, 08:38 PM

In reading the Saints I've come to a somewhat better understanding, although, who can really understand such a mystery as prayer. In starting to get a grasp on God's Economia it seems to me that God does nothing on earth apart from doing it through Christ, and in practical terms that means through His Body, His Church. Therefore nothing on earth is accomplished except through prayer. God never waves a magic wand and simply forces His will on creation, it is always through those submitted to Him that He works - The Fall was Adam's free choice and Adam's redemption is always accomplished through the free choices of us who are of Adam.

I had not thought of it in those terms before. Thank you, I will have to think a bit more about that one. :)

Vasiliki D.

13-01-2009, 01:26 AM

---Quote---
if God is going to do what is right and perfect anyway, how is it that our prayers make any difference?
---End Quote---

Excuse me for intervening on a thread that has no relevance to me since I am a cradle orthodox. However, I wanted to come in, not to offer an opinion but rather to offer a gentle reminder of the origins of what "prayer" actually means.

It is true and wonderful that our Church now has much literature to offer on how to pray, when to pray, prayer for this and prayer for that ... and it is all true and valid and should be embraced. Sometimes, however, it is nice to remind ourselves of the origin and simple nature (root) of the word PRAYER - we can learn much from this and then we can understand perhaps too how our prayers make any difference.

Prayer is the english version. The Greek word for prayer is PROSEFXO ... the etymological basis of this is PRO and SE EUXO - in other words - I BLESS YOU.

Thinking about it in such a simplistic way is good to remind us of what we are doing with the more complex forms of prayer ... what we are doing (in essence) is BLESSING GOD ... not that He needs it. The primary focus is not about ourselves it is about God ... we bless him.

So, our prayers make a difference to God if we Bless Him ... it shows him your love towards Him. It shows Him that the focus of your world is not yourself but Him. If you give an offering of prayer to Him out of love for Him ... he is then OBLIGATED by His nature to Love you in return and Bless you ...

I hope that starts some thought on the matter ... I do know that the Elders of the Church understand this ... I can not validate my paragraph patristically ... i will try to find something. I know it to be true though ...

Bless God so that He can Bless you ...

It is like a wrestinling match ...if you wrestle God ..he is obligated to wrestle you back ...you "force" him in a loving way to love you back!! :)

So, your prayers do make a difference; they make a difference to your own life - if you dont invite God in to the "LOVE WRESTLE" ... then He can not LOVE WRESTLE you :)

Also, God doesnt do what is right and perfect anyway ... that is probably not phrased right more than anything :) He will do according to His will based on how we choose ....

M.C. Steenberg

13-01-2009, 01:45 AM

Dear Kieth, dear Anna and others,

Some very helpful thoughts and considerations in the above, for which thanks.

When we begin to see the nature of God's creation as abiding in him, and creation's problems as resulting from the fracture in communion that results from our sin, we are able to understand the mystery of prayer more clearly as the reunion of love, in love, of all creation in God. This is the mystery that draws prayer out of the mind and into the heart; which with surprising alacrity converts the heart to know the value and power of such prayer, offered together with, to and for the whole of creation.

INXC, Deacon Matthew

Father David Moser

13-01-2009, 02:22 AM

Although this is not the "whole story", I think that intercessory prayer is often an exercise in giving up control to God. We tell God the situation and then say "Lord have mercy" and leave the whole thing in His hands to do as He knows best. So when we pray and relinquish control into God's hands this eliminates one more barrier to full and complete communion with God, which is what true prayer is about.

Fr David Moser

Nina

21-01-2009, 04:11 PM

There is an excellent explanation by Elder Cleopa in one of his books (I think The Truth of our Faith) regarding prayers to the Saints.

L. Allen

23-06-2009, 01:48 PM

Sorry, this just caught my eye although it is an old thread so I apologize for bringing it up again.

I just wanted to say that, for me also, the veneration of Mary and the saints is one of the aspects of Orthodoxy (and Catholicism) that I find most difficult to come to terms with. Actually, I noticed that in the Easter service at my own High Anglican church, there were prayers addressed to Our Lady, which I have never heard there before or since. It seems to me that veneration has quite a different feel to it from the respect one pays to the living (someone mentioned the Queen!), but to be fair I'm not sure I could say why.

Andreas Moran

23-06-2009, 02:25 PM

the veneration of Mary and the saints is one of the aspects of Orthodoxy (and Catholicism) that I find most difficult to come to terms with.

I was never a churchgoer before I became Orthodox, so I didn't have any baggage. But I had no problem with this, and I don't understand why Anglicans and Protestants do except for a fear of anything that smacks of 'popery'. As I've said elsewhere, the Gospels, especially Luke's, make it clear that Mary is the Mother of God and should be honoured as such. If God chose Mary from all the women who will ever have lived for His incarnation, doesn't that suggest she was more than a bit special? If God thought she was so special, shouldn't we think so and show it? As for the saints, why are C of E churches dedicated to saints if those saints are not to be venerated? Why are there prayers to them in the BCP? God is God of the living, not the dead. Why did Christ talk about the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob if there is to be no veneration of those in the heavenly kingdom? The saints are our friends who have finished their race. Why shouldn't we talk to our friends and ask them to put in a word for us? And as is well known, the saints intervene in our lives and even appear to some people. I once was talking to a low C of E minister about this. 'We don't need any mediators', she said. 'Do any of your parishioners ask you to pray for them?' I asked her. 'Yes', she said. 'So', says I, 'why don't you tell them they don't need you to pray for them?' No answer.

L. Allen

23-06-2009, 03:09 PM

I was never a churchgoer before I became Orthodox, so I didn't have any baggage. But I had no problem with this, and I don't understand why Anglicans and Protestants do except for a fear of anything that smacks of 'popery'. As I've said elsewhere, the Gospels, especially Luke's, make it clear that Mary is the Mother of God and should be honoured as such. If God chose Mary from all the women who will ever have lived for His incarnation, doesn't that suggest she was more than a bit special? If God thought she was so special, shouldn't we think so and show it? As for the saints, why are C of E churches dedicated to saints if those saints are not to be venerated? Why are there prayers to them in the BCP? God is God of the living, not the dead. Why did Christ talk about the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob if there is to be no veneration of those in the heavenly kingdom? The saints are our friends who have finished their race. Why shouldn't we talk to our friends and ask them to put in a word for us? And as is well know, the saints intervene in our lives and even appear to some people. I once was talking to a low C of E minister about this. 'We don't need any mediators', she said. 'Do any of your parishioners ask you to pray for them?' I asked her. 'Yes', she said. 'So', says I, 'why don't you tell them they don't need you to pray for them?' No answer.

Well, I think the thing is that a congregation or a minister praying for people (living or dead) is rather different from asking the dead saints to pray for you. For me, I have a difficulty in that I can't reconcile this with the idea that the dead will see God in a different light, with different understanding. We can't know what this difference is. In contrast, the thing I like about congregational prayer is that it's a very human, earthly expression of sympathy towards others, whose needs we can imagine and empathize with. I've never formally studied theology though, so I don't know that this stands up except as a subjective reflection of my own feelings.

Herman Blaydoe

23-06-2009, 03:32 PM

Well, I think the thing is that a congregation or a minister praying for people (living or dead) is rather different from asking the dead saints to pray for you.

Why is that, do you think? We Orthodox believe that death does not separate the Church. While we live together on earth as Christians, we are in communion, or unity, with one another. But that communion doesn’t end when one of us dies. We believe that Christians in heaven, the saints, remain in communion with those of us on earth. The Apostle James tells us that the prayers of the righteous are of great effect, and the saints have been shown to be righteous, God-pleasing people. Why should they not be able to pray for us? We know that the saints pray in Heaven because the Apostle John tells us so in his descriptions of Heavenly worship in the Book of Revelations. Do we know better than the Apostles?

For me, I have a difficulty in that I can't reconcile this with the idea that the dead will see God in a different light, with different understanding. We can't know what this difference is. In contrast, the thing I like about congregational prayer is that it's a very human, earthly expression of sympathy towards others, whose needs we can imagine and empathize with. I've never formally studied theology though, so I don't know that this stands up except as a subjective reflection of my own feelings.

Well, again, we know that the saints pray in Heaven to God, or St. John is wrong. We know, as Christians, that Life does not end with death. If the saints are alive in Christ, and pray in the unadulterated presence of God, why would they not pray for the whole Church, which, I assume, includes us?

At least that is how it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

Andreas Moran

23-06-2009, 03:34 PM

rather different from asking the dead saints to pray for you.

But they're not dead! If they are, we're in it good and deep!

the dead will see God in a different light, with different understanding.

They're just closer to God than we are. That's why was ask them for help. Of course, God doesn't need their intervention for us - but He does want us all to be His Church united in love. If we can't be friends with the saints, the Church is split. Anyway, I know they're our friends who respond to us.

Alice

23-06-2009, 03:48 PM

Dear L. Allen,

Christ is among us!

To all the excellent replies, I will add my own thoughts, for what they are worth:

Think about a King and His court. The King sits on his throne, his Queen at his side, and the important men of court are close to him and when a visitor comes to ask the king for a request, the Queen might intercede and ask the king to grant it, or his ministers might advise to grant it. The Queen and the ministers have gained the king's favour and trust, so he listens to them.

I know this is a poor example, but it is similar to God who has the communion of saints and His most holy Mother near him. They hear our prayers and intercede and ask Him to grant our prayer. They have earned Heaven and a closeness to God by the exemplary, pious, humble and martyric lives they led.

The saints feel for us, because they too lived on earth and understand our human condition and needs.

They are our heavenly 'prayer warriors', just as we are often each other's 'prayer warriors' here on earth.

Think of an earthly father. Think of how strict and/or unyielding he can be when his child asks him for something. Think of how it is most often we mothers who gently intercede on our children's behalf for the fathers to hear our child's request.

Think of an adult child. Think of how a beloved mother can sway the adult child unlike anyone else can in a request. The blessed Virgin Mary did just that at the wedding in Cana with our Lord. The blessed Virgin Mary continues to request of the Lord on behalf of us all. She only wants one think in return for these favours she has our Lord grant to us: that we love, honor and worship Her Son, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

When a prayer is answered, we thank the saint, but we also thank God...for we know that it is God who answered and heard our prayers through the loving intercession of a saint..

Perhaps sometimes we feel too unworthy to pray to God because of our sins. We know that the saints also struggled with sin, so we feel that they understand us.

I don't know if any of this made any sense...we do not HAVE to pray for intercessions from the saints, although for us Orthodox it is tradition, but try to understand why we do...

In Christ our Lord,
Alice

L. Allen

23-06-2009, 04:27 PM

Mary

23-06-2009, 04:38 PM

Think of an earthly father. Think of how strict and/or unyielding he can be when his child asks him for something. Think of how it is most often we mothers who gently intercede on our children's behalf for the fathers to hear our child's request.
In Christ our Lord,
Alice

Forgive me Alice, but I don't like how this is worded. Makes it sound like the father doesn't love a child as much as a mother does. May be true in some humans relationships... but not with God. God is the source of Love, how can anyone love us more than He does? How can anyone be kinder to us, or gentler with us?

I don't think anyone changes God's mind by prayer, not in a human kind of way... like how you or I might change our minds because we realize the other idea is better.

I think, we pray, because God likes the connection, the interaction, the relationship. There's no other way to be one with each other. I mean... God knows what's good and what's not and He could just do the right thing all the time regardless of our involvement. But He doesn't. He waits for us to get involved. It's more trouble for Him when we get involved, just like it's easier to bake those brownies without your child's 'help'. The brownies may even turn out to be better without the child's help. But you'll end up with perfect brownies and no relationship with the child.

That's why we pray, that's why we ask the saints to pray for us, that's why they pray for us, that's why we pray for our friends and ask them to pray for us... it's a great way of getting everyone involved in our personal lives.

At least that's how I feel about all this prayer stuff. To say that it's because I prayed that God acted, makes it feel to me as if my prayer has some kind of power over God. It doesn't. How many times does He do things for us when we dont' even know how to ask for? Not to mention... sometimes the answers to our prayers are set in motion long before we become aware of the problem... maybe even years before... as God weaves lives together through one thing or another, until all the right people are in the right place, at the right time, and your prayers are answered. That has happened so many times, that it's just not coincidence.

God is never strict and unyielding. He knows we are but dust. We're the ones who forget dust.

In Christ,
Mary.

Mary

23-06-2009, 04:48 PM

Yes ... I'm thinking about all of this hard. I didn't mean to suggest that the saints were dead in the spiritual sense, obviously! But they have passed through death (as did Christ), and we have not. So, while I find it easy to accept that they might look on us with sympathy and understanding, knowing more than we do and being familiar with the earthly life, I find it harder to know why *we* should address *them*. I'm not trying to argue a cast here, btw, just trying to puzzle out why it's an issue for me and for other Protestants. I guess partly it's that, when a friend, or another church member prays for me, I can communicate with them face to face, and know that I have a level of understanding of them, even if they may be a much better person than I am.

Don't stress yourself over it. It'll grow on you and you'll understand. I asked my friend: "I know God can hear me when I pray to him. How can the saints hear me? Especially if, say, everyone is praying to the same saint all over the world - can they be in all places at once like God is?" And he told me... all communication happens through the Holy Spirit, even in us. After may days of thought, it did make sense to me... I can't understand you, if God doesn't help me understand you. We're all in different bodies... the way we feel things, the way things affect us are all different... and however good we are at empathizing, the bottom line is, we do not really, truly know how another person is feeling! Only God knows. And anything we know, is what He has revealed to us.

Many of the saints, before they died, had become clairvoyant - being able to see into the heart and thoughts of the person talking to them, just as Christ was able to know the thoughts of all who came to him. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and I don't see why it should be taken from them, when they're in God's presence. If anything, they can see better.

The other reason we have trouble accepting intercession from saints and the mother of God, is because we're too proud to admit that they're more righteous than we are. =) We've spent all our lives being lone rangers, that it's hard to learn to live with a family and accept help and even ask for help. When we ask our Live Friends, we're still in control - we can hide information, we can pretend, etc. But there is no pretending before God and the saints... they can see through us.

In Christ
Mary.

Andreas Moran

23-06-2009, 05:04 PM

o, while I find it easy to accept that they might look on us with sympathy and understanding, knowing more than we do and being familiar with the earthly life, I find it harder to know why *we* should address *them*. . . I guess partly it's that, when a friend, or another church member prays for me, I can communicate with them face to face, and know that I have a level of understanding of them, even if they may be a much better person than I am.

We should address them because we share a communion of love. Love is not defeated by death. They love us. We love them. What's love without communication? It might not be 'face-to-face' (though with an icon it can seem like it), but spiritual communion doesn't have to be. And then, neither is texting! We here in England should especially communicate with our own saints who, because not many people venerate them, don't have much to do and are very glad, in my experience, when someone does communicate with them.

L. Allen

23-06-2009, 05:12 PM

We should address them because we share a communion of love. Love is not defeated by death. They love us. We love them. What's love without communication? It might not be 'face-to-face' (though with an icon it can seem like it), but spiritual communion doesn't have to be. And then, neither is texting! We here in England should especially communicate with our own saints who, because not many people venerate them, don't have much to do and are very glad, in my experience, when someone does communicate with them.

Thanks Mary and Andreas - I am still not sure that this is something for me, but every time I discuss these things they become a little clearer in my mind, so that at least is progress. A relative of mine, who was an Anglican nun but also very interested in intellectual argument, suggested to me that perhaps God looks of discussion of faith as being similar to the kinds of prayer one says when one is questioning, which is a nice thought for us here.

Alice - I don't know if St Julian of Norwich is an Orthodox saint or not (quite possibly not), but in her writings she often stresses the maternal aspect of Christ, who bled and suffered in order to bring about our rebirth as a mother suffers to bring about our human birth. Even if Julian isn't an Orthodox saint, you might like to read her. She's very interesting and has a wonderful short prayer, which she believed Christ gave her: 'All shall be well. And all shall be well. And all manner of things shall be well.'

Herman Blaydoe

23-06-2009, 05:22 PM

I guess partly it's that, when a friend, or another church member prays for me, I can communicate with them face to face, and know that I have a level of understanding of them, even if they may be a much better person than I am.

Perhaps I am having a hard time understanding why asking the saints to pray for us is any different? They are still friends and church members! Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. If a person is blind and deaf, does that mean the people around them don't exist because they cannot be seen or heard? Creation is bigger than our physical senses can perceive. That is why the Church works so hard to stimulate our spiritual sense, the nous, which is sometimes referred to as the "eye of the soul". That is why we have icons and incense and candles and music and the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, so that God can, through our working five senses, help us develop that sixth sense that has atropied since the Fall.

One of the reasons we have icons is to remind us that we are not alone, that we are surrounded by and prayed for by the hosts of saints, even if we cannot physically see them face-to-face anymore. That we are praying with them and they are praying with us. To remind us that we can still communicate and that we can establish a "level of understanding" between us, even if we don't totally understand it.

Herman

Andreas Moran

23-06-2009, 05:27 PM

I am still not sure that this is something for me

Not bother with the saints? Ignore them? Don't think God wants that. He likes them; we should as well.

Alice

23-06-2009, 05:36 PM

Margaret S.

23-06-2009, 05:52 PM

Alice - I don't know if St Julian of Norwich is an Orthodox saint or not (quite possibly not),

Julian is too late to be an Orthodox saint (she was born around 1342) and, as far as I know, she hasn't been canonised in the Roman Catholic Church either but the Church of England does commemorate her on the 8th of May. She is very well worth reading both for her theological insight, a glimpse into the life of a mediaeval solitary and for anyone interested in women theologians before the modern age. Mother Julia Bolton Holloway has a very extensive site devoted to her http://www.umilta.net/julian.html for anyone interested.

Regards
Margaret
in Edinburgh

L. Allen

23-06-2009, 06:06 PM

Perhaps I am having a hard time understanding why asking the saints to pray for us is any different? They are still friends and church members! Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. If a person is blind and deaf, does that mean the people around them don't exist because they cannot be seen or heard? Creation is bigger than our physical senses can perceive. That is why the Church works so hard to stimulate our spiritual sense, the nous, which is sometimes referred to as the "eye of the soul". That is why we have icons and incense and candles and music and the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, so that God can, through our working five senses, help us develop that sixth sense that has atropied since the Fall.

One of the reasons we have icons is to remind us that we are not alone, that we are surrounded by and prayed for by the hosts of saints, even if we cannot physically see them face-to-face anymore. That we are praying with them and they are praying with us. To remind us that we can still communicate and that we can establish a "level of understanding" between us, even if we don't totally understand it.

Herman

If you're having a hard time understanding, it reflects exactly what I'm feeling! This is, as I've said, possibly the issue I have most trouble with, and I don't feel confident about why I feel the way I do. Initially I also found icons very hard to accept, although I am coming to see why they might be appealing. But the reason that I'm trying to express myself in terms of what I feel and sense, rather than any kind of objective 'truth', is because I am finding this a difficult issue to fathom.

L. Allen

23-06-2009, 06:07 PM

Not bother with the saints? Ignore them? Don't think God wants that. He likes them; we should as well.

If I may, I would suggest that ignoring the saints, and not feeling comfortable with asking them to intercede, may not be the same thing.

Mary

23-06-2009, 06:33 PM

Dear Mary,

I did not make that analogy of the stricter father and the softer mother myself...I have heard such analogy more than once by Orthodox clergy over the years...and the analogy for a softer mother has generally been an analogy for the Theotokos. Just because a Father is a bit more strict certainly doesn't mean he isn't full of love.

Sorry, but I got this straight from the mouths of the ordained! :)

I think it is time to bow out of this conversation....I will leave it to those who are more eloquent and knowledgeable than I....

Best Regards and God bless,
In Christ our Saviour,
Alice :)

Dear Alice,

Please forgive me. Didn't mean to snub you. I've heard the analogy before and I know you didn't make it up. It's always bothered me. Could be personal. I was always closer to my father than to my mother. If I needed something, I'd go straight to him, because I didn't trust my mother to understand me enough to relay my message to him accurately. And what child is afraid of going straight to the father? Unless the father is some mean monster or else the mother makes him out to be one? My mother used to try to get us to obey her by telling us that Dad would punish us when he got home, if we didn't listen to her. That is a technique that is often used by exasperated mothers, and it is so unfair to the fathers.

Yes, I agree, the strictness of fathers is different from mothers. Perhaps they appear to be unrelenting because they are less emotional and more patient, able to bear the relentless begging of a child without giving in, while it annoys a mother a lot faster. I don't know. Everyone's different.

What is God like? What are the saints like? I think our preconceived notions could get in the way of truly knowing what they're like.

In Christ,
Mary.

Mary

23-06-2009, 06:45 PM

Not bother with the saints? Ignore them? Don't think God wants that. He likes them; we should as well.

You'd be surprised at how hard it is to get to know the saints. It doesn't mean we don't want to bother with them. You can't like something you have no relationship. You can't dislike it either. So, it's not 'ignoring' and it's not that we dont' want to bother with them... it's just 'neutral' zone. We knew they existed, we knew they were in God's presence, we knew they were all a part of the Church. But we didn't know we could have a relationship with them till the end of the world, when we are all equally in God's presence. We'd talk about our favorite old testament people and long to be with them and meet them, but no one told us we could talk to them now! We had no stories of the saints, so, there was nothing to connect the first Church to us. Discovering them, and getting to know them one by one, is an awesome experience. It's like life being breathed into a dead limb. It can be painful at times, but I'd never trade the thrill of it for anything else.

Also, when I first discovered them, I wanted to read about all of them and pray to all of them. That's as impossible as having a close relationship with every human being you meet! But I had no idea... that you could get to know them as individuals, that you could connect with some of them at a deeper level than others. I couldn't have, and wouldn't have believed all that, till I experienced it myself.

In Christ,
Mary.

Herman Blaydoe

23-06-2009, 09:29 PM

If you're having a hard time understanding, it reflects exactly what I'm feeling! This is, as I've said, possibly the issue I have most trouble with, and I don't feel confident about why I feel the way I do. Initially I also found icons very hard to accept, although I am coming to see why they might be appealing. But the reason that I'm trying to express myself in terms of what I feel and sense, rather than any kind of objective 'truth', is because I am finding this a difficult issue to fathom.

It is certainly hard to determine the depths of eternity. When you can ACCEPT (rather than JUSTIFY) the idea that God is bigger than our ability to comprehend Him, you will have more peace. God is REVEALED, not "figured out". Think about that.

Herman the Pooh

Margaret S.

23-06-2009, 10:33 PM

You'd be surprised at how hard it is to get to know the saints...
Also, when I first discovered them, I wanted to read about all of them and pray to all of them. That's as impossible as having a close relationship with every human being you meet! But I had no idea... that you could get to know them as individuals, that you could connect with some of them at a deeper level than others.

Yes! And sometimes the ones that you tell yourself you will have a devotion to aren't the ones who help you most in the end. The saint whose intercessions have given me so much over the last months is St Luke the Wonderworker and I had never even heard of him until the eve of an MRI scan that was terrifying me. And St Phanourios, well, isn't he an excuse for the Greeks to bake a cake? I suppose he is and very good cake it is too ;) but, for me, as well as finding lost keys and passports and bank cards (I lose everything) he has also found good advice, comfort and certainty in decisions.

Regards
Margaret
in Edinburgh

Mary

24-06-2009, 12:55 AM

Yes! And sometimes the ones that you tell yourself you will have a devotion to aren't the ones who help you most in the end.

Regards
Margaret
in Edinburgh

Absolutely! I was traumatized when I couldn't connect with my patron saint and I found myself running to another one all the time. I wondered if she'd be jealous. Took me a while to realize she was beyond getting jealous about such a small matter. =)

in Christ,
Mary.

Alice

24-06-2009, 03:07 PM

Dear Alice,

Please forgive me. Didn't mean to snub you.
In Christ,
Mary.

Not a problem....ofcourse I forgive you dearest Mary. :-)

As for going to the Father through the softness and understanding of the Theotokos--that is why we ask Panaghia and/or the Saints to pray unto God for our salvation in every service of the Church.

There is a tale which I heard on the radio station of the Church of Piraeus...I missed where it came from but knowing this station it was probably from an Elder or Saint of the Church...

It was a cute tale of St. Peter and Christ counting all the people in Heaven on a given day. They counted and tallied, but on the second count, the numbers came up more. They counted again, and again the numbers came up more. They went to the Entrance of Heaven to see what was going on, and saw the Panaghia (the Virgin Mary) opening the locked gates and letting people through who wanted to get in!!

Perhaps a mother is not always the soft hearted one as an exception to the rule (as in your experience), but generally this is how mothers and women are.

Be well dear sister and be at peace and with joy,
In Christ,
Alice

Grace Singh

24-04-2010, 08:24 PM

My advice, for what it's worth? If it bothers you, don't do it. There is no forcing in Orthodoxy. No one is going to force you to make the sign of the cross, or do prostrations (unless it is a penance from your confession, but even then, the priest is not going to stand over you with a whip to make sure you do it!). Latch on to something that really does attract you and do that, or focus on that one thing. The other stuff, just let it ride for now.

Take what you can use and leave the rest (at least for now).

this is a bit of an older thread, but Owen, your post interested me.

can one be Orthodox and respect, admire, and learn from the Saints without worshipfully reverencing them, praying to them, or asking for their prayers? not to say that i don't need all the prayers i can get, but the concept troubles me a bit. and i was wondering if one can be faithfully Orthodox and still direct their prayers solely to God the Father and to God the Son, through the Holy Spirit.

at the same time, there's a danger of trying to change or pick and chose Orthodoxy based on what one is comfortable with, instead of humbly learning from what the Church practices and teaches.

Richard A. Downing

24-04-2010, 10:46 PM

Dear Grace,

Just a little story. The chapel that I worship in during the week is in Father's attic. It is very small, suitable for maybe five or six people standing in prayer. The walls are frescos by Aidan Hart. Behind us is the great icon of the Transfiguration, flanked by St Simeon the New Theologian and St Gregory Palamas; On the side walls there are ten great saints, including St Silouan of Athos, and St Anthony the Great. Over the Holy Table (it is too small for an iconostasis) Christ in Glory is flanked by His Holy Mother and the Friend of the Bridegroom (Saint John the Baptist), beyond them are our local saints: St Bega, St Mungo, St Cuthbert and St Herbert. The whole effect is calm and warm and dark.

In the morning before sunrise we arrive quietly and climb the stairs in silence to stand together. Quietly, Father censes and then begins Matins with the invocation, and someone (Matushka usually) greets Our Lord, his Holy Mother, and then one by one the saints of the chapel. We are all of us, the living in the Chapel, the Saints in Heaven, The Mother of God, standing together with every other Christian throughout the world, before the Throne of Christ our God. And Matins rolls on...

It is totally, utterly real, that we are one Church throughout every age. Our God is the God of Love, of relationship: our relationship to Him, but also our relationship one with the other. And that includes all those who have gone before us, and all those who have not yet been born. I can't put into words how real the presence of those Saints is to me, it isn't just the icons, although they help, it isn't the way they were greeted, I greet them too. It helps me that I have read Father's book on why these particular Saints were chosen for the Chapel, these are the Saints who have helped him on his journey to 'Lived Holiness'.

Now, I am a convert from Low-church Anglicanism, and I can say without a qualm, that when Our Lord commands us to love one another he is including ALL of them. I talk with my friends, don't you?

Love In Christ, Richard.

Grace Singh

25-04-2010, 12:20 AM

Richard ~

i do. and yet i stumble at the fact that they have passed beyond this life and can not be spoken to face to face, as i would with a living person still in the flesh and in front of me.

i understand that all live in God, yet to pray to, talk to, or ask prayers from people in heaven does still strike me as odd, and i image many, many (if not nearly all) Protestants feel similarly at least initially.

Owen

25-04-2010, 01:57 AM

I suspect that until one has had a mystical encounter with a Saint in waking life, it will always seem as you have described. I came out of Protestantism (tempered with a certain amount of broad-church Anglicanism), and not till I did an in-depth study of the Epistle to the Hebrews did I begin to accept on a deep level the notion of patronage and the role Saints play in the Divine economy. and I'm still not used to conversing with them.

Grace Singh

25-04-2010, 05:33 AM

Dr Owen, thank you. where in Hebrews does the idea or mention of prayer to or the prayers of saints in Heaven arise? and how does the Orthodox Church interpret these verses?

edit : one of the concerns i have is to follow Christ, as we know Him through the Gospels. how does He ask us to pray, to honor Him, to relate to Him, to serve others, to live a holy life. from what i read there, He mentions only prayer to the Father, and honoring the Son as we honor the Father, for He and the Father are One.

granted, there are many things one does as a Christian which are not spelled out in Scripture, and i'm not trying to argue for a Sola-Scriptura stance here. my concern is basically "am i doing what Christ asks me to do if i pray to or ask for prayers from a Christian who is in heaven? is this Tradition something complimentary to Christ as we know Him through Scripture?"

Andreas Moran

25-04-2010, 07:30 AM

'But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant' - Hebrews 12:22-24.

'For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him' - Luke 20:38.

We cannot separate out the Gospels from other scripture nor scripture from the Holy Tradition of the Church. Christ said that He did not teach us 'all things' but that the Holy Spirit would (John 14:26); 'Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth' (John 16:13). The Holy Spirit is the soul of the Church and leads her into 'all truth'. That is why the Church is 'the pillar and ground of truth' (1 Timothy 3:15). Therefore, in relation to the question raised, we turn not only to scripture but to the Church (which is Christ) and to what her Holy Tradition provides for us by way of the writings of the Holy Fathers and the hymnography and iconography of the Church. The saints and the company of the faithful are in the heavenly homeland whilst we are still on our pilgrimage there. But though their mode of existence is different (being bodiless), they and we are not separated but are all of the Church which is built 'upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets' (Ephesians 2:20). We are one Body for love joins and binds us (cf St John Chrysostom, 'Eulogy for the Holy Martyr Romanus'). There is, as we say in the Creed, 'One Church', not a church of the living and a church of the departed. Through icons and relics, we can converse with those saints to whom we feel some attraction and with whom we develop a relationship; St John of Kronstadt said that we can call upon them, thank them, and converse with them as with living people. Christ commands us to love one another (John 15:12); He does not tell us that we can stop loving one another when some of us have departed this life. From what Christ and His Holy Church have told us, we are doing what Christ asks us to do if we pray to and ask prayers from those in heaven; indeed, if we do not, we are not doing what Christ asks us.

Herman Blaydoe

25-04-2010, 01:50 PM

Grace,

Do you pray for other people? Do you ask others to pray for you? Why should you pray for others when they have direct access to Christ? Why should you ask others to pray for you instead of going directly to Christ?

Perhaps because we are told to do so by the Apostles themselves? Does not the Apostle Paul ask the brethren to pray for him? Doesn't he write about how he prays for them (and for us). Doesn't the Apostle James command us to "pray for one another" and that "the prayers of the righteous are of great effect" (James 5:16). Are the prayers of the acknowledged saints of the Church now of "no effect" simply because they are no longer with us, but with Christ in heaven? It would seem quite the opposite would be true to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

Grace Singh

25-04-2010, 05:43 PM

There is, as we say in the Creed, 'One Church', not a church of the living and a church of the departed. Through icons and relics, we can converse with those saints to whom we feel some attraction and with whom we develop a relationship; St John of Kronstadt said that we can call upon them, thank them, and converse with them as with living people. Christ commands us to love one another (John 15:12); He does not tell us that we can stop loving one another when some of us have departed this life. From what Christ and His Holy Church have told us, we are doing what Christ asks us to do if we pray to and ask prayers from those in heaven; indeed, if we do not, we are not doing what Christ asks us.

Brother Andreas, that is very helpful indeed, and certainly a striking thought. one thing about the Orthodox Churches one can't help but notice are the great amount of miracles surrounding the deaths of the Orthodox faithful. the incorruptability, miracles, holy scents, and a great many other things.

Herman, your thoughts are greatly appreciated, too. again, it is something that may take some thought, reading, listening, and study to accept, and better understand. if in the future i am able to write to or speak with an Orthodox priest, this is one thing i will certainly ask him. many things which come naturally and are easily understood by life-long Orthodox are less easy for those coming in or looking in from outside the faith.

Andreas Moran

25-04-2010, 09:08 PM

Dear Grace,

These things do not come only to 'life-long Orthodox'. Let me give you two examples. About 1994, my late first wife, Kathryn, and I went to the Greek island of Ithaca. En route, we went to Kefalonia and visited the monastery of St Gerasimos and venerated his relics. I was just Orthodox two years and Kathryn was not Orthodox. As we left we were aware that our lips were tingling. When we got to Ithaca, we went to visit a hermit and told him this. 'It was the grace of St Gerasimos', he said. I said that Kathryn was not Orthodox. 'It is a sign that she should be and will be', he said. In 1996, the year before Kathryn was baptised Orthodox, we visited the site of the relics of St John of Beverley (+721 AD), a great English saint. As we approached the place where his relics are buried, we crossed ourselves and started to pray. Immediately, a beautiful fragrance arose from that spot. We confessed this to Archimandrite Zacharias at the monastery here in Essex. He said this was a sign from one of our own saints. He blessed us to tell of this since it would be an encouragement to English people to acknowledge their own saints.

Fyodor Vaskovsky

26-04-2010, 04:36 AM

this is a bit of an older thread, but Owen, your post interested me.

can one be Orthodox and respect, admire, and learn from the Saints without worshipfully reverencing them, praying to them, or asking for their prayers? not to say that i don't need all the prayers?... there's a danger of trying to change or pick and chose Orthodoxy based on what one is comfortable with, instead of humbly learning from what the Church practices and teaches.

Personally, I understand that there is such a danger. But, Orthodoxy is like a river. One plunges gradually into its waters. The fact that one doesn't do it does not mean that one doesn't share the teaching of the Church, it is just their psychological problem, which is certain to be overcome in the future. Furthermore, respecting, admiring, and learning from the Saints is what the Orthodox Church actually teaches, with one note: to be able to learn from them (like from any other person), you can ask them to teach you.

Does this make sense?

David Hawthorne

26-04-2010, 05:32 AM

I was raised Baptist and became Charismatic non-denominational in high school. In my mid-twenties I became Orthodox. As a Protestant, prayer to the saints, veneration of Mary, and confession were big stumbling blocks for me. But once I had finally really grasped the concept of Tradition and the teaching authority of the Church the teachings which gave me the most hesitation have become some of the teachings I cherish the most. Now it just makes sense.

Anna Stickles

26-04-2010, 02:40 PM

Hi Grace,

As noted above it's really as the saints make themselves known to us in various ways that they become more real, but you were asking about scriptural support and there are a few things that I found helpful.

One in Heb 12:1 it says (referring back to all the saints the author has just reveiwed) "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us." Orthodoxy teaches that the saints are still conscious and working with Christ in bringing about His redemption and salvation even after they die. They are watching us, cheering us on, and able and willing to help.

Also, Matt 22:29-32 says " Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Now while we know that the final and complete resurrection when we are reunited with our bodies, will not occur until the Last Day, nevertheless the saints are prayed to after they die because they have experienced that resurrection in soul as a foretaste of the final resurrection and thus their souls are living, conscious and free to continue in Christ's work, even though separated from their bodies. They are like the angels, working as His messengers and helpers.