Are projectors and screens beneficial to Orthodox worship?

[David Jovan N.]

Dear Monachos members,

Does anyone have any informed opinions or specific experiences regarding the use of a projector and screen to facilitate Orthodox Worship?

On the one hand I see that it could be a great distraction, but on the other I see that it could greatly facilitate people in Liturgical participation. For example, the words of the liturgy could be available in both languages, parishoners (except for the person operating the projector) would not have to be distracted getting lost in booklets and the changeable portions of the Liturgy could easily be added or deleted as needed weekly.

Any comments would be helpful.

Yours sincerely,

David.

[Michael Astley]

Dear David,

Thank you for asking this question.

I shall give as full an answer as I feel able but must point out that these are my own thoughts based on my own observations and I claim no more authority for them than that.

In my experience, both first-hand and in conversations with people who regularly use projectors, these are compatible with a particular understanding of worship, and it is one that is the fruit of the sort of clericalism that is highly prevalent in many protestant churches but which is foreign to Orthodoxy.

On a thread some time ago, to do with the priest saying the mystikos prayer of the Liturgy aloud, I mentioned the development of thought about worship in the west. Pre-reformation Catholicism privatised the mass a great deal, to the point where the people were deprived of much of their role in the communal offering of worship. Many of the people's parts were said quietly by a lone server, if they were said at all, while the people remained largely oblivious to what was going on almost silently at the altar, instead kneeling in neat rows and clicking their rosaries or praying from their primers until they heard the bell alerting them to look up, which they would to momentarily to see the host being elevated, before they returned to their beads or books. Their regular communion all but disappeared. Eamon Duffy in The Stripping of the altars tells us about how priests would "stagger" the elevations of the host at simulataneous masses in the same church so that the people could run from altar to altar to catch a glimpse of the elevated host. This was the nearest they go to participation for much of the time.

Protestantism reacted against this, and rightly so. However, instead of encouraging a balance between the priest's role and the people's role, by restoring the people's parts to them, what happened for the most part is that a very clericalist approach was taken. By clericalist, I mean that excessive focus was placed on the priest/minister in worship, much more than had ever been the case before in either east or west. A whole new approach was taken so that absolutely everything the priest/minister said or did had to been seen by the people, and had to be heard by the people. The idea was created that the people were not truly participating unless they could see the priest, hear the priest, or even join in the priest's prayers. It got to the point that in some services, the priest had to vest in the sight of everybody and say his vesting prayers out loud in the hearing of all.

The lasting effects of this innovation cannot be underestimated for it lingers on today in many non-Orthodox confessions. Where worship is concerned, there is no sense of a communion of different people with different roles and orders within the body of Christ. Instead, everybody has to be doing the same thing at the same time, hearing the same thing at the same time, saying the same prayer together, singing the same hymn together. If the priest alone says a prayer, then everybody must hear it. Anything else is considered to be somehow improper, as though the priest is somehow usurping the worship of the people. Instead of facing east along with the people, as one of them from among their number, the priest must stand behind the table and face the people so that he can be the focus and his actions may all be seen. The traditional orientation of priest and people together, standing before God together, praying together, awaiting the coming of the Dayspring, the Oriens, together, is frowned upon and disparagingly referred to as the priest having his "back to the people" because there is the possibility that the priest may do something that the people may not see. Their rood screens (the equivalent of the iconostas) have been ripped out in many cases and are rarely, if ever, included in new church buildings, because it acts as a "barrier" and prevents them from seeing the priest.

The result of this mentality is that the people have been deprived of any meaningful role in worship and have been made entirely reliant on sharing the actions and words of the priest, but not just that - this is viewed as a good thing and anything that runs against this is seen as exclusive. Rows of chairs and pews have been installed - and why not? If your role has been reduced to that of a spectator, why should you not sit in rows to watch the action that is happening up front? If you must all do the same thing together, why not install a screen and project words onto it so that everybody can look at the same place on the wall and say the same words together?

By contrast, look at Othodox worship. We are all baptised and within the communion of the Church, and we are all chrismated, at which point we receive the charisma of whatever ministry we are to serve within that communion, and that reaches its pinnacle when we come together to make Eucharist. So the priests have their role, the deacons, theirs; the subdeacons and readers, theirs; the chanters, theirs; the faithful, theirs; the bellringers, theirs; and so forth. And these actions overlap and run parallel, diverging and then converging on each other throughout the course of the Liturgy. The deacon offers the petitions of the litanies and the people respond. Meanwhile the priest is offering prayers for the people, then these actions converge with the priest's exclamation at the end of the prayer. Similarly, the people sing the cherubikon while the deacon censes and the priest offers prayer. Before the Liturgy, the deacon censes the people and then walks around the church, censing the icons while the people move with him and bow. This all happens while the reader is leading the praying of the Sixth Hour. At the epiklesis, there is the dialogue of prayer between the priest and deacon while the people fervently implore the hearing of God in the "We praise Thee, we bless Thee...". The priest's quiet portions are not done specifically so that the people see and hear them but they are also not do specifically so that the people do not see or hear them. The question simply does not arise for it is born of a problem that developed outside of Orthodoxy.

I could go on and on. There are numerous examples of this multi-layered and multi-faceted aspect of the Orthodox worship of God and it truly reflects the life of the Church as being a communion of people with different charismas, orders, gifts, and ministries, all within the Body of Christ. They really and truly participate in the action of the Liturgy. St Ignatius of Antioch:


"Be eager to do everything in God's harmony, with the Bishop presiding in the place of God, and the Presbytery in the place of the council of the Apostles, and the Deacons, most sweet to me, entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ." "Each of you must be part of this chorus so that, being harmonious in unity, receiving God's pitch in unison, you may sing with one voice through Jesus Christ to the Father."

I just cannot see a screen and projector fitting in with this at all. It would be inhibiting of Orthodox worship in the same way that other creeping things are inhibiting. In what follows, I am not intending to be disparaging of any of our holy and hard-working clergy, in whom the Holy Spirit works and to whom I owe a great deal. I am a convert myself and I know all too well what baggage we can bring with us, often without realsing it for some time. However, it would seem that the clericalist understanding of worship has crept into Orthodoxy to some degree with some communities of converts. Some examples are the insistence of the mystikos prayers being said aloud (a priest who is a friend of mine admitted to me that the reason he does this is a hangover from protestantism), the proskimede being done in the body of the temple to ensure that it is seen and heard by the people, and the introduction of pews. Have you been to an Orthodox church where there are pews or rows of chairs installed? The effects are there for all to see. In my experience, people sit much of the time when they really don't need to - even for Scripture readings, they don't make reverences or prostrations, they do not move as a body when the deacon censes the body of the church with its icons (mainly because the pews are in the way so it is physically impossible) but instead stand still while he passes them by. The participation of the people fades away and, one by one, the elements of our Tradition that instill in our hearts a reverence for God and holy things, are eroded. How much more would this be the case if, instead of focusing on their part in the liturgical action, the people's eyes were glued onto a screen off to one side or up above?

Imagine communion. The curtain is drawn aside, the Royal Doors are opened wide, and the priest comes forward bearing the Holy Things, exclaiming the invitation, "With fear of God, with faith, and wth love, draw near", and instead of falling prostrate before the Body and Blood of their Lord and God, the people are all looking at the words that are being projected onto a screen off to one side.

If my priest were to introduce this, (not that I suspect he ever would), I'm afraid that I would have to implore him to reconsider and, failing that, sadly find another parish because I simply could not bear it. My sould could not bear it. It would feel like a regression to my past when I was brought up with this clericalist understanding of worship that has become so alien to me now that I am Orthodox. Orthodoxy has been for me a joy and a source of life, in which I have found wonders and the strength to carry on through life in this fallen world because of the growth that has been afforded me by feeding on the Body and Blood of Christm and by partaking in the spiritual riches that the Orthodox heritage has to offer in the writings of the Fathers, the prayers, the holy icons, and the rich and wondrous worship offered to God. While I will always be grateful to my past, it was my starting point and I couldn't go back now. I simply couldn't. Projectors would break my heart.

In Christ,
Michael

[Andreas Moran]

It's hard to add anything useful to Michael's post (save that, in common with many, I think the priest's purposely keeping the words of the epiclesis from the people is not a necessary part of Orthodox worship and these words being in the hearing of the people does not detract from the purity of Orthodox worship and its traditions). The liturgy is not a theology seminar where visual aids will enhance understanding. The only projection we have or need is of the heavenly worship upon the earthly and the earthly upon the heavenly.

[Rick H.]

It seems to me that we should not draw the line with projectors here, but also include microphones and speakers. Or, really if you take this to its logical end, electricity itself as well as indoor plumbing are innovations now aren't they? Possibly, one day, regarding such as pews, organs, etc., or various cultural and ethnic practices, it will be the rule and not the exception to know, to understand, that one size does not fit all. I'm sure there are many young people in the present day, and even folks my age who grew up in a purple haze staring at MTV and other various screens, who would find such as projectors a blessing, a vehicle, and a tool of God. I'm constantly reminded of the quote supplied from Herberg . . . something about Orthodoxy in America not standing a chance.

And, don't even get me started on those electric candles in the church in my hometown. Let's throw those out too!

[Andreas Moran]

Is there a New World-Old World split in perceptions of Orthodoxy?

[Olga]

It seems to me that we should not draw the line with projectors here, but also include microphones and speakers.


Oooh, Rick, don't get me started on that one! :P

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=51166#poststop

While Eleftheria Lykopantis is referring to microphones in church, there is food for thought in her article of relevance to whether screens and projectors should be used in Orthodox worship.

[Michael Astley]

It's hard to add anything useful to Michael's post (save that, in common with many, I think the priest's purposely keeping the words of the epiclesis from the people is not a necessary part of Orthodox worship and these words being in the hearing of the people does not detract from the purity of Orthodox worship and its traditions).

Thank you for this, Andreas, and please accept my apologies. You explained very eruditely on the referenced thread how their are other influences and questions at play in the matter of the epiklesis chanted aloud/said silently/spoken in a normal, audible voice, and I did not mean to disregard that or be misrepresentative in my earlier post. I just got caught up in my train of thought. I'm sorry.


The liturgy is not a theology seminar where visual aids will enhance understanding. The only projection we have or need is of the heavenly worship upon the earthly and the earthly upon the heavenly.

How did you manage to say in two lines what it took me much longer to say?


It seems to me that we should not draw the line with projectors here, but also include microphones and speakers. Or, really if you take this to its logical end, electricity itself as well as indoor plumbing are innovations now aren't they? Possibly, one day, regarding such as pews, organs, etc., or various cultural and ethnic practices, it will be the rule and not the exception to know, to understand, that one size does not fit all. I'm sure there are many young people in the present day, and even folks my age who grew up in a purple haze staring at MTV and other various screens, who would find such as projectors a blessing, a vehicle, and a tool of God. I'm constantly reminded of the quote supplied from Herberg . . . something about Orthodoxy in America not standing a chance.

And, don't even get me started on those electric candles in the church in my hometown. Let's throw those out too!

In one sense, I would agree with you, Rick. We cannot simply dismiss everything as incompatible with Orthodoxy on the grounds that it is a modern development. If that were the case, none of us would have any place posting to this internet forum.

In the words of St Nkolai Velimirovich:


We must be super-conservative in preserving the Orthodox faith, but super-modern in propagating it.

However, your example of sham electric candles is an ideal example of my next point, which is that not everything worthy of dismissal is so due to its being modern. I have heard stories form friends who have been to Italy of these votive "candles" where you insert your donation and the the bulb switches on for ten minutes. This illusory approach is not truly reflective of the reality of Orthodox worship.

Not all of the things can be readily dismissed as ethnic practice. What happens when all Orthodox churches in Britain have had pews installed for decades to the point where our children and grandchildren have never seen a prostration? Do we then consider prostrating to not be part of Orthdox Tradition but instead a Russian ethnic practice?

I, too, am of the MTV generation, and I confess that I watch far too much television even now. I can be glued to a screen for hours at a time, taking in influences that I ought not to. I know this and yet I do it. However, I do believe that the Church is to call us out of the mire and into the light. Through our communion with God and each other in our prayers and worship, at home and in church, our hearts are lifted on high, beyond the mire and drudgery, laying aside all the cares of this life. When the Liturgy is compromised in order to make it resemble the mire, then what hope have we?

Maggie Smith's character in Sister Act reacted to the introduction of a secular musical style into the mass in a superbly comical manner which only Ms Smith could carry off but I think that there is a grain of truth in it.


And what next? Popcorn? Curtain calls?

We install chairs, then we install a screen and projector. Really how far do we want to go? Yes, I recognise that there will always be infuences in our churches based on the local culture and I do not necessarily think that this is always a bad thing. However, when we find ourselves in the situation, (as I am in Britain and you are in America), where the local culture has been substantially formed for many centuries by forms of Christianity whose mindsets are in many ways diametrically opposed to that of the Orthodox Church, then we need to exhibit more caution than simply adopting everything that at first seems practically useful, considering how its long-term effects could influence how we perceive, how we pray, how we work out our salvation. These things need to be tested in the light of the Tradition that we have received.


Is there a New World-Old World split in perceptions of Orthodoxy?

There's a question and a half! I don't know enough to contribute much to that in any depth as my experience is too limited to examine such a question but if the recent unpleasantness surrounding the Bishop Basil incident is anything to go by, then it may well be the case.


Oooh, Rick, don't get me started on that one! :P

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=51166#poststop

While Eleftheria Lykopantis is referring to microphones in church, there is food for thought in her article of relevance to whether screens and projectors should be used in Orthodox worship.

Thank you for linking to this, Olga. There is certainly much to be borne in mind there by all of us.

In Christ,
Michael

[Andreas Moran]

How did you manage to say in two lines what it took me much longer to say?

I like to challenge the notion that lawyers are verbose!

[Andreas Moran]

Originally Posted by Andreas Moran
Is there a New World-Old World split in perceptions of Orthodoxy?

There's a question and a half!

I don't know any Americans but my nephew in Atlanta tells his father that we in England cannot imagine how different America is even though we share the same language (nearly). I can't point to any examples off hand, but I occasionally form a vague impression from some posts here that there can be differences in perception of some aspects of Orthodoxy between Old World and New World. Having said, there are, it seems, differences in perception between western Old World and eastern Old World - as my wife occasionally tells me!

[Herman Blaydoe]

It seems to me that we should not draw the line with projectors here, but also include microphones and speakers.

Gets my vote. A well-designed church doesn't need them and they can be very distracting when keyed at the wrong moment.


Or, really if you take this to its logical end, electricity itself as well as indoor plumbing are innovations now aren't they?

You can find many people in Russia, for example, who do not believe churches should have restrooms. They snicker at the thought of doing THAT in church. When we build our church the restrooms will be outside the Church proper, part of the fellowship hall.


Possibly, one day, regarding such as pews, organs, etc., or various cultural and ethnic practices, it will be the rule and not the exception to know, to understand, that one size does not fit all. I'm sure there are many young people in the present day, and even folks my age who grew up in a purple haze staring at MTV and other various screens, who would find such as projectors a blessing, a vehicle, and a tool of God.

All things are lawful, but not all things edify... There are REASONS why we don't do instruments, why pews detract from Orthodox worship, and why projectors are simply unnecessary. As I get older, I begin to truly appreciate time spent NOT staring at a screen of any kind. And where do you put the screen? It took us a thousand years to come up with the layout we have now, how long do you think it will take to redesign it?


I'm constantly reminded of the quote supplied from Herberg . . . something about Orthodoxy in America not standing a chance.

And I can think of another quote, something about "if God is with us, who can stand against us...?


And, don't even get me started on those electric candles in the church in my hometown. Let's throw those out too!

Not fond of those myself, our parish uses oil lamps and beeswax candles. Change may be inevitable, but not all change is good or even necessary. However, discernment is always a good thing, or so I'm told by discerning people.

Herman the Pooh

[Herman Blaydoe]

Those familiar with the Old Testament (a depressingly decreasing number these days) may recall that God was rather specific and particular in how He should be worshipped. And while change has occurred, it was generally with the idea of what was God-pleasing, not man-pleasing. We model our worship on what is described in Holy Scripture, not MTV or in the mega-churches with a Starbucks in the vestibule. The Crystal Cathedral, with its huge opening doors and drive up worship spaces might draw large crowds, but Orthodoxy prefers quality over quantity. One non-Orthodox writer describes Orthodoxy as the US Marine Corps of Christianity. I happen to work with the Marines a lot and I certainly see that as a compliment.

Change can happen, change does happen. But let us take care to make sure those changes are God-pleasing and truly reflect eternal heavenly worship, and not simply the perishable fads of of the day. We are trying to communicate eternity, not merely "keep with the times".

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Father David Moser]

It seems to me that in order to approach this question in an Orthodox manner, it is vital to remember what the Liturgy is and what it is not.

The Liturgy (and indeed all the services) is the communion of the faithful with each other and with God (and here I refer not just to the Holy Things themselves, but to the whole service surrounding them). We come to the service to pray, not in our individual and private manner, but in a corporate manner, all following the same pattern, saying the same words at the same time, following an elaborate "dance", if you will, which weaves together the laity, the choirs and the clergy into a single whole which is offered up to God not as a cacaphony of individual prayers coming from the same place, but as a beautiful symphony of prayer raised with one voice. Anything that detracts from this should not be part of our worship.

What the liturgy is not is also quite important - Our worship is not christian education (although it has many educational elements); our worship is not evangelism (nor should it be); our worship is not entertainment or a cultural "experience". These are often things that are mistakenly attributed to Orthodox worship but which really are off the mark.

Projectors and screens are at the best distractions from and more probably detrimental to worship for they evoke a state of the heart that is not prayerful, but rather passive. All the things that they could be used for are things that are already aberrations in Orthodox worship. The "need" to see everything (and the resulting exposure of even the most holy moments) erases the sense of mystery which the services are designed to create. The whole idea of using a screen so that people don't have to juggle books does not eliminate a barrier (the books) but rather magnifies it. People juggle books because they don't know the services (mostly since the only time they see them is when they show up on Sunday morning) and when they are there they don't know how to listen (and another thing that contributes is of course the fact that many chanters and singers - and even clergy - do not clearly enunciate but rather tend to mush the words and mumble through things as fast as possible, but thats a different tirade).

Education - while there is much teaching incorporated into a service - is not the primary function of Orthodox worship. Education should be done outside the service, in classes, retreats, workshops, Bible studies and so on. (Why don't we have these things more often? In my experience is has been that people usually have something "better" to do and so after a meeting or two don't come) Even the sermon is less about instruction than it is about encouragement and exhortation. Education is also a function of our own personal reading and discussion which becomes an extended "classroom" outside the Church.

Evangelism - is a good thing and we should all participate in it. But our worship is not designed as an evangelistic tool. Our worship does proclaim the Truth and sets out clearly that Truth in word and song, in pictures and movement, in smell taste and touch, but it is not designed for the unbeliever to come to believe, rather it is designed for the believer to express his love for God. Evangelism is the result of your Orthodox life, the presence of the virtues in you, the words of Christ coming from your lips and the works of Christ emanating from your hands in every place and at every time. This is evangelism. Evangelism is the ability to defend your faith, whether by argument or by silence, speaking as the Holy Spirit gives you words. Evangelism is not worship and worship is not evangelism (they have different "objects" - evangelism is directed toward the world to bring the world to God, while worship is directed away from the world and toward God.

Entertainment - do we even need to consider our worship as entertainment?

Projectors and screens and microphones and speakers do have their place in Orthodox life. We can use them to teach, we can use them to extend the Church beyond its walls (as we can see when at a great celebration there are screens set up outside the Church displaying the events inside since the crowd is too big to fit in all at once - or when a special service, such as the MP/ROCOR reconciliation services, are televised for the benefit of the faithful throughout the world who cannot be there. Projectors and screens and microphones and speakers can be used in our daily lives to capture our wandering attention and present to us those things which are useful and good and beneficial to the well being of our souls. Such things are communication tools, but are not worship tools.

So to grasp the place of projectors and screens in orthodox worship, we have to understand what Orthodox worship is and what it is not and when we fully and with one mind and heart participate in our worship, then we will easily see that projectors and screens and whatnot really have no place in the worship of the Church.

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

What is 'MTV'?

[Ryan]

What is 'MTV'?

Ah, how blessed you are!

[Paul Cowan]

Are projectors and screens beneficial to Orthodox worship?


no

[Michael Stickles]

The whole idea of using a screen so that people don't have to juggle books does not eliminate a barrier (the books) but rather magnifies it. People juggle books because they don't know the services (mostly since the only time they see them is when they show up on Sunday morning) and when they are there they don't know how to listen (and another thing that contributes is of course the fact that many chanters and singers - and even clergy - do not clearly enunciate but rather tend to mush the words and mumble through things as fast as possible, but thats a different tirade).

I hadn't thought of that before, but it makes a lot of sense. The first thing I learned by heart in the services was the multi-lingual "Lord have mercy" - and I'll bet that's because it wasn't in the service book the way we sing it. I had to listen carefully to the sounds and then go online to try to find out what the words were and what languages they were in. Putting more effort into learning does help things "stick".

Michael

[Michael Stickles]

What is 'MTV'?

I believe it stands for "Mindless Televised Vulgarity". Or should, anyway.

[David Jovan N.]

Thankyou everyone for your helpful replies.

Although most of what has been said still applies, I should make it clear that the screen would not be used to broadcast any filming of the liturgy. However, because our parish is mainly an Arabic parish with four or so English-speaking convert families, the screen would be used to have side by side English translation of the audible petitions and faithful's responses (not the Priest's prayers in a low voice).

At the moment the service is alternating between Arabic and English, so many people do not even know what is said half of the time as they have given up on trying to navigate through Liturgical Books.

Thus it would be used to allow everyone to understand the word's of the Liturgy and participate. On the other hand, I do understand the points you have brought up, and if I didn't have my own reservations about the idea I wouldn't have started this thread.

Thank you for your help.

David Jovan.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Many Protestant worship spaces are generally quite spartan. A table, some plain crosses, and a few colorful banners perhaps. The emphasis is generally on hearing and of course the projector adds a visual element for reinforcement

On the other hand, Orthodox Churches are the original multi-media centers. We already engage all five senses in our worship. What could a projector add to our worship that icons and vestments don't already communicate in a much richer if somewhat more subtle manner? And the Protestants don't have anything to compete with incense, candles (the lighting of which engages four of the five senses alone!), the altar, all that makes Orthodox worship, well, Orthodox!

I do think that projectors and presentations, and modern media in general, and even musical instruments can have a place, in the fellowhip hall or the classrooms, just NOT in the worship space! We should and must take advantage of technology to help spread the Word, but in an appropriate and edifying manner, not simply for its own sake. It is simply too easy to get caught up in the technology itself and forget about what it is actually being used for.

And if you haven't noticed, technology changes. Trying to keep up can be rather challenging. By the time projectors would be added to all our churches, holographic projectors will be the big thing, or even paintable OLED screens, making the walls and even the ceiling able to be changed or even animated. It almost sounds tempting, but I can certainly imagine how horribly distracting it could become.

Technology has its place, but I happen to think that the best technology is invisible, in that it works best when people are barely aware of it, and it enhances the person's focus to the message rather than the medium. Orthodoxy has been doing that for over 2000 years. There have been experiments, some have become accepted and others are rejected, but the less dependent we are on technology means the more dependent we will be on the Holy Spirit.

This was rather forceably brought to my own attention some months ago when a small tornado passed right over our church during a service. A large tree was brought down, blocking the parking lot and taking down the power lines. We noticed the lights going out, but we still had lampadas and candles to provide light. We didn't fully know what had happened until after the service, since we do lose power rather frequently where we are anyway. Imagine, a tornado passed overhead and didn't even interrupt the service! There is wisdom there I think (not mine, but in the Holy Tradition of the Church!).

Anything that inserts itself between us and God can be a bad thing, when it blocks our view of God instead of enhancing it. Discernment counts for something.

Herman the technophile Pooh

[Andreas Moran]

Imagine, a tornado passed overhead and didn't even interrupt the service!

Quite off thread but this reminds of a recent story about an earthquake on Mt Athos; the monks were in church and carried on with the service as if nothing was happening even though the chandeliers were swaying around.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I see that almost everyone here is speaking from the understanding of how the church is a liturgical space. This I am sure is entirely correct.

Everything within the church indeed is part of this liturgical space: the physical layout & architecture, the iconography, the hymnography and order of the services.

Of course there has been change in the expression of this space over the centuries. But whatever has been found within this space always is consistent with its own liturgical spirit. The elements of the church are not there as a help for communication but rather as that which in itself conveys the spirit of the liturgical reality as known within the Church.

Anything which disturbs this sense should have no place within this order.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Rick H.]

Anything which disturbs this sense should have no place within this order.







However, discernment is always a good thing, or so I'm told by discerning people.








Discernment counts for something.




Without discernment the fundys win everytime.

[Michael Stickles]

At the moment the service is alternating between Arabic and English, so many people do not even know what is said half of the time as they have given up on trying to navigate through Liturgical Books.

Thus it would be used to allow everyone to understand the word's of the Liturgy and participate.

David - are the Liturgical books that the people "have given up on trying to navigate through" bilingual? I have visited a Greek Orthodox parish which similarly alternates between languages, and the service books they have are parallel English-Greek, so I didn't have to juggle two books. It wasn't too hard to keep up, and if I lost my place in a Greek section, I could find it again when they switched back to English.

As for the variable places, if their locations are clearly marked in the service book, and those words provided separately (for example, my own parish has the Troparia and Kontakia for the day printed in a bulletin insert), that might work.

One of the things to keep in mind is Marshall McLuhan's aphorism - "The medium is the message". In essence, this means that the medium a message is presented in insinuates itself into the message itself. The service book and projector are different mediums: the service book is relatively small, handled by the individual, and must be actively followed; a projector setup is large, handled centrally by one person for everyone, and following it is mostly passive. These different mediums will have different effects on our participation in the service and reception of it. Understanding what the differences will likely be is probably one of the first places that discernment needs to be exercised.

In Christ,
Michael

[Rick H.]

The service book and projector are different mediums: the service book is relatively small, handled by the individual, and must be actively followed; a projector setup is large, handled centrally by one person for everyone, and following it is mostly passive. These different mediums will have different effects on our participation in the service and reception of it.



That's a good point Mike. Yes, understanding/standing under the difference between such as the active and the passive (as well as for the one[s] who transcends both of these), and the corporate and the individual aspects is key to the budding of a spirit of discernment here and elsewhere.

I really appreciated Fr. David's poetic piece above, especially in the following which I thought was eye opening:





We come to the service to pray, not in our individual and private manner, but in a corporate manner, all following the same pattern, saying the same words at the same time, following an elaborate "dance", if you will, which weaves together the laity, the choirs and the clergy into a single whole which is offered up to God not as a cacaphony of individual prayers coming from the same place, but as a beautiful symphony of prayer raised with one voice. Anything that detracts from this should not be part of our worship.



Yes, an elaborate dance a beautiful symphony! Very good. Just perfect.

[Rick H.]

I found this quote on a member's personal profile page today, and I thought it should find a home here as well:




The royal path of true Orthodoxy today is a mean that lies between the extremes of ecumenism and reformism on the one side, and a zeal not according to knowledge (Rom. 10: 5) on the other. True Orthodoxy does not go in step with the times on the one hand, nor does it make strictness or correctness or canonicity (good in themselves) an excuse for pharisaic self-satisfaction, exclusivism, and distrust, on the other.

- Blessed Seraphim of Platina



There was a mention of a "split" in this thread earlier, I think we should allow some room for this. As well it occurs to me that we could speak of a split between those who are "fixated on religion" and those who listen to "the bishop within." Why does Owen have all the good expressions? :)