Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism and others

[Fabio Lins]

This thread came to my mind in relation to the other one about the 48th prayer in "Prayers by the Lake" ( http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=73582#post73582 )

I wonder, and I would like to ask the help of those more knowlodgeable than I in the Fathers, if the Fathers have ever mentioned, even if briefly, Far Eastern religions as Buddhism, Hinduism or any other. Constantinople and Alexandria were melting points and relatively close to the places where these belief systems thrived and they certainly had some contact with these systems.

All I could find was some sparce references in the Wikipedia about Buddhism:


Christian awareness of Buddhism

Some have suggested the Church Fathers were acquainted with Buddhist beliefs and practices.

Buddhist tradition records in the Milinda Panha that the 2nd century BCE Indo-Greek king Menander converted to the Buddhist faith and became an arhat

The Christian theologian Clement of Alexandria states in the 2nd century CE:

"Thus philosophy, a thing of the highest utility, flourished in antiquity among the barbarians, shedding its light over the nations. And afterwards it came to Greece. First in its ranks were the prophets of the Egyptians; and the Chaldeans among the Assyrians; and the Druids among the Gauls; and the Sarmanas among the Bactrians ("Σαρμαναίοι Βάκτρων"); and the philosophers of the Celts; and the Magi of the Persians, who foretold the Saviour's birth, and came into the land of Judaea guided by a star. The Indian gymnosophists are also in the number, and the other barbarian philosophers. And of these there are two classes, some of them called Sramanas ("Σαρμάναι"), and others Brahmins (Βραφμαναι)."
—Clement of Alexandria "The Stromata, or Miscellanies" Book I, Chapter XV[21]

Clement writes of the Buddha:[6]

"Among the Indians are those philosophers also who follow the precepts of Boutta, whom they honour as a god on account of his extraordinary sanctity."
— Clement of Alexandria, Stromata (Miscellanies), Book I, Chapter XV

Early 3rd-4th century Christian writers such as Hippolytus and Epiphanius write of one Scythianus who visited India around 50 CE, whence he brought the "doctrine of the Two Principles". Scythianus' pupil Terebinthus supposedly presented himself as a “Buddha” ("he called himself Buddas" Cyril of Jerusalem) and became well known in Judaea. The same author says his books and knowledge were taken over by Mani, and became the foundation of the Manichean doctrine.[18]

"Terebinthus, his disciple in this wicked error, inherited his money and books and heresy, and came to Palestine, and becoming known and condemned in Judaea he resolved to pass into Persia: but lest he should be recognised there also by his name he changed it and called himself Buddas."
—Cyril of Jerusalem, Sixth Catechetical Lecture Chapter 22-24 [19]

Hippolytus, a Greek-speaking Christian in Rome, around 235 includes Indian ascetics among sources of heresy:

There is ... among the Indians a heresy of those who philosophize among the Brahmins, who live a self-sufficient life, abstaining from (eating) living creatures and all cooked food . . . They say that God is light, not like the light one sees, nor like the sun nor fire, but to them God is discourse, not that which finds expression in articulate sounds, but that of knowledge (gnosis) through which the secret mysteries of nature are perceived by the wise.

The Syrian gnostic theologian Bar Daisan describes in the third century his exchanges with missions of holy men from India (Greek: Σαρμαναίοι, Sramanas), passing through Syria on their way to Elagabalus or another Severan dynasty Roman Emperor. His accounts are quoted by Porphyry (De abstin., iv, 17 [7]) and Stobaeus (Eccles., iii, 56, 141).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Christianity#Christian_awareness_of_B uddhism

I also had read a book about an early Nestorian mission to China. There is some info about it in Wikipedia too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Sutras

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Yes there was a general Patristic knowledge of these religions.

But most of their knowledge tended to center on the Roman Empire which provided the main points of contact and communication for them. This was the main world in which their thought and action was involved although they were aware of what lay beyond this.

For more detail see the entry: Trade Routes in Fr John McGuckin's Patristic Theology.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Anthony]

A few references to knowledge of Buddhism in the Hellenistic world:



"The conquest by Dharma has been won here, on the borders, and even six hundred yojanas (4,000 miles) away, where the Greek king Antiochos rules, beyond there where the four kings named Ptolemy, Antigonos, Magas and Alexander rule, likewise in the south among the Cholas, the Pandyas, and as far as Tamraparni." (Edicts of Asoka, 13th Rock Edict, S. Dhammika)

(This of course is Maurya propaganda, but at least it shows they tried.)



Buddhist gravestones from the Ptolemaic period have also been found in Alexandria, decorated with depictions of the Dharma wheel (Tarn, "The Greeks in Bactria and India").


There are a few more on the same page (http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/history/hellenistic.htm).

[Fabio Lins]

Yes there was a general Patristic knowledge of these religions.

But most of their knowledge tended to center on the Roman Empire which provided the main points of contact and communication for them. This was the main world in which their thought and action was involved although they were aware of what lay beyond this.

For more detail see the entry: Trade Routes in Fr John McGuckin's Patristic Theology.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Here is a link (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=u4i8jv0b7IkC&dq=John+McGuckin+Patristic+Theology&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=FTCy7r2rbG&sig=7DQPScYmS-udSUXgefVQl75Hgeg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA334,M1)for sample pages of the book. Fortunately, the entire entry is available on page 332 and on.

[Fabio Lins]

And here is a link (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iv.i.xv.html) to Clement's texts mentioned in the article, where he recollects all the "barbaric" origins of Greek philosophy, referring it to exogenous religions.

[Olga]

A note on the word barbaric: The original meaning of this word was simply foreign, i.e. not Greek. The Greeks coined this word as it suggested the harshness of foreign languages ("bar-bar") to Greek ears. It is only in recent centuries that the word has come to mean violent, uncivilised, cruel, etc.

[Fabio Lins]

You know, after my conversion, and after someone told me that the Song of Solomon (or Canticles, or Song of Songs) was an image of the relation of God to the Church, I could not but wonder what the following verses in Chapter 6 could mean:

"8There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.

9My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her."

"What?", said I. "So God's got concubines?"

But maturing my reading, I think that the queens are possibly the heretical churches, the concubines the good religions (those that do have some truth on them) and the virgins all the nations and people who know not God at all.

If this reading is correct the "favorite of the King" she for whom the Song is meant, is the "dove", the "undefiled" which is "but one" (no branches), the only one of her mother (Mary?).

God has but one *true* wife that He loves as Flesh of His Flesh (at least it is Flesh of the Son of God, in being the Body of Christ). Yet, He does visit (and it is the song of songs that uses sexual imagery here) other "women", that is, other religions.

Some of these other, despite not being "The One", are, yet, Queens. They somehow share on His Majesty although not fully as "The One". There are threescore of them, that is, sixty. Six is a number related to both the completitude of the world and incompletitude of the whole being which is more than the world. Therefore, in associating 6 to the "queens" it is emphasizing that which their mundane title already shows: they are of the world primarily, despite receiving visitations from the King. 10 is the number of completitude. So 60 is the sum of all imperfections. All this point to the heresies, such as the Latins, Pre-Calcedonians, Protestants and so on and corresponds to our actual experience of them: there *is* something of the "majesty" there, although not entirely.

The second group os 80 concubines. The concubines are not even queens. They are associated to Him just by contract, sex and being mothers of many of His children. These would be all the non-Christian religions (but not the pseudo-Christian ones). Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism. They too have visitations from the King, bear His children but are yet one step more detached. Number 8 is associated with Resurrection but also with Grace. Truly, salvation amongst the "concubines" is a work of superabundant Grace.

The virgins, as the name implies, would be those who were never "touched" by the King, those who do not Him. In fact, in verse 9, we see that the queens and the concubine praise "The One" but not the virgins. The first two have a partial knowledge of which the virgins do not share.

I hope this interpretation is not *too* detached from the patristic ones. :P

[Eric Peterson]

It would be best to find out the Patristic interpretations and bring one's own in line with them.

[Theophrastus]

Abba Olympus (http://books.google.com/books?id=CM_shGskJz4C&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=%22Abba+Olympus%22+pagan&source=bl&ots=soXwAP0kn6&sig=2gLzwRJnNJlPQJQMlhlisUuZiWA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA87,M1) said this. "One of the pagan priests came down from Scetis one day and came to my cell and slept there. Having reflected on the monks' way of life, he said to me, 'Since you live like this, do you not receive any visits from your God?' I said to him, 'No.' Then the priest said to me, 'Yet when we make a sacrifice to our God, he hides nothing from us, but discloses his mysteries; and you, giving yourself so much hardship, vigils, prayer and asceticism, say that you see nothing? Truly, if you see nothing, then it is because you have impure thoughts in your hearts, which separate you from your God, and for this reason his mysteries are not revealed to you.' So I went to report the priest's words to the old men. They were filled with admiration and said that this was true. For impure thoughts separated God from man."

[Eric Peterson]

On the other hand, it would be expected that those who make sacrifices to demons would see all sorts of visions and deceptions from demons to make them think they are on the right path, when really they are being deceived.

[Rick H.]

A man walked into a Shiva temple


In the middle of the room was a lingam [a stone]. The man sat down on the floor and put his feet up on the Shiva lingam.

The priest of the temple rushed in and asked, "Don't you know what a sin you've just done? No one can put their feet on such a holy shrine! The punishment for such an act is eternity in hell."

The man, humble in his way, answered, "Please accept my apology, for I did not know that what I did was wrong. Can you please place my feet somewhere where God won't be offended?"

Immediately, the priest took the man's feet off the stone and threw them to the ground. To the man's surprise, before his feet could touch the ground, another Shiva lingam appeared to catch the man's feet.

This time the humble man, with a glimmer in his eye, asked the priest to place his feet where God did not exist. At that, the priest bowed to the feet of this holy man and apologized.

The holy man replied, "There is no place where God is not."

[Fabio Lins]

This site tells an enlightening story of the clash between Hinduism and Orthodoxy:
http://www.impantokratoros.gr/Ashram-Hinduism.en.aspx

[Kusanagi]

"For all the gods of the nations are idols"

From Chronicles.

[Rick H.]

It goes without saying, that Orthodoxy and Hinduism are at odds. The above story by Farasioti has been posted on Monachos in the past and has been met with a few yawns. However, in one aspect Farasioti's story is unique, in that it uses the pronoun "I" so very often. Possibly, this is an example of theology in the first person. Or, maybe this could be viewed in relation to the Apostle Paul's letter to the foolish Galatians where he taught from his experience that it is "Not I; but, Christ."

[Theophrastus]

This site tells an enlightening story of the clash between Hinduism and Orthodoxy:
http://www.impantokratoros.gr/Ashram-Hinduism.en.aspx

Also check out Mother Gabriele's (http://www.oodegr.com/english/oikoumenismos/Gavriilia1.htm) experiences in India.

Excerpt:


Τ: Sister, there is a guru that came here, to Athens, who has been giving lectures and initiating many youngsters, and one of them is a 19-year old friend of mine. This youngster is now in a Psychiatric Ward. What went wrong? What can be done?

Mother Gabriele: I have noticed the following, that Hindus do not suffer this kind of derangement*...

I think it's possible that the negative experiences many Westerners have with gurus and ashrams, is in part due to two factors: (1) these Westerners (unlike born Hindus) tend to idealize gurus and ashrams, thinking (unlike born Hindus) that gurus and ashrams offer a 'quick' path to enlightenment/salvation/happiness; and (2) many of the gurus who travel to the West or establish ashrams in India for Westerners are not 'fully cooked' themselves and do not represent the 'truly enlightened' ones who stayed in India or do not cater to Westerners.

[Father David Moser]

I think it's possible that the negative experiences many Westerners have with gurus and ashrams,...

I think there is also a great deal of caution due to the fact that many of the people who avidly seek out gurus and so on are emotionally unstable themselves and are looking for an anchor - any anchor - that will give them some stability. When their "anchor" doesn't live up to the ideal that was set for it, they face a traumatic conflict which either dictates moving on to some greater more powerful "truth" or which condemns the group that failed them for some external reason. It is this conflict which drives some people into a psychotic breakdown. We see this also in many of the inquirers that come to the Orthodox Church seeking some great mystical experience or some citadel of truth upon which they can sit and pronounce judgment on the world which has failed them. Very often such seekers don't survive a rigorous catechism or if they do manage to get through until baptism, then they end up in some schismatic group which is "the only remnant of true Orthodoxy, everyone else having fallen from grace" or something similar.

Fr David Moser

[Bill Cherry]

Depending on how old you determine the human race to be, Hinduism is the oldest surviving religion on the planet. The ancient wise men that came from the east following the star at Jesus' birth were more than likely astrologers.Not astrology as is the fashion today in the form of fortune telling. But, a form of discipline within the Hindu religion.

It is believed in the Roman Catholic church that salvation can be found outside of its borders.

Romans Chapter 2 says


11 There is no favoritism with God.
12 All those who have sinned without the Law will perish without the Law; and those under the Law who have sinned will be judged by the Law.
13 For the ones that God will justify are not those who have heard the Law but those who have kept the Law.
14 So, when gentiles, not having the Law, still through their own innate sense behave as the Law commands, then, even though they have no Law, they are a law for themselves.
15 They can demonstrate the effect of the Law engraved on their hearts, to which their own conscience bears witness; since they are aware of various considerations, some of which accuse them, while others provide them with a defense . . . on the day when,
16 according to the gospel that I preach, God, through Jesus Christ, judges all human secrets.

There is an interesting prudence in Hinduism when it comes to things that are often neglected by many modern Christians. They respect all religions. And while many of the practices are based on superstition and tradition, the same can be said of Christianity. The difference, however, is that we don't engage in attempting to manipulate the things that are. (Well, we might make petition for things against the Lords will every now and then.) We attempt to align ourselves with his will.While we pray, the Hindu performs "PUJA" which is sort of like asking for their god's blessings, but I think it is also more along the lines of bribing their god's as they make offerings. We,on the other hand, have been given the gift of Christ's sacrifice so we no longer need to do these things but merely offer up the body and blood, soul and divinity of our Lord in atonement for our sins.

[Theophrastus]

the Hindu performs "PUJA" which is sort of like asking for their god's blessings, but I think it is also more along the lines of bribing their god's as they make offerings.

I wouldn't claim that the Hindus have a monopoly on trying to bribe God.

[Rick H.]

I wouldn't claim that the Hindus have a monopoly on trying to bribe God.

This is a good point. And, as we may possibly continue the original question of this thread which I think is "awareness," from this we see that Hinduism does not have a corner on the market when it comes to religion and manipulation as opposed to revelation and submission. In the end, there is either self attempting to dominate ones god(s) and the world, or there is a recognition of God and his Kingdom which only the self and the world can submit to. In the end, there is either an attempt at manipulation of one's god(s) or a submission to God. What is most clear on this, however, is that Yahweh is opposed to all human forms of religion (as well as all attempts to control the future). In this sense, religion cannot coexist with revelation in any faith tradition or philosophy. There is a counterculture aspect in this that will never be grasped by those who subscribe to Vox populi or Realpolitik. Based on my experience, in my neck of the woods, possibly this is exactly where Hinduism has a leg up one the rest of us. While they obviously reject the radical claims of revelation past what they have been given through their groping, I do not see the same unhealthy syncretism of revelation and religion, the same mixing of religious ways with a selective interpretation of God's revelation. But, there is nothing new under the sun, Israel's problems with these persist today.

[Kusanagi]

Fr Zacharrias' take on BUDDHISM AND EASTERN ASCETICISM COMPARED TO ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN ASCETICISM

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/7423.htm

[Herman Blaydoe]

Depending on how old you determine the human race to be, Hinduism is the oldest surviving religion on the planet. The ancient wise men that came from the east following the star at Jesus' birth were more than likely astrologers.Not astrology as is the fashion today in the form of fortune telling. But, a form of discipline within the Hindu religion.

There are scholars who would dispute that. The Vedas might not be as old as some say, and what is called "Hinduism" today probably does not resemble much whatever belief system engendered them.

If Orthodoxy is the heir of Israel, the descendants of Abraham, I think we have as strong a case as any belief system in the world today as to longevity.

Herman the Pooh

[Ryan]

There are scholars who would dispute that. The Vedas might not be as old as some say, and what is called "Hinduism" today probably does not resemble much whatever belief system engendered them.


Hinduism is really not a single religion; it's more like a matrix of religious concepts from which many religious paths are formed, but which can fundamentally disagree with one another on a number of points. So it's hard to generalize too much about what Hindus practice or believe.

About the wise men from the east, I always thought they were simply Zoroastrian priests, as the term "Magi" would imply. I'm no scholar though...

Astrology was of course practiced by many religions outside of India and throughout the near East, including Babylon and Persia. Astrology is also employed in the Bible, for marking seasons as well as prophesying events in God's plan. In this case, of course, it has nothing to do with "star worship" or the pagan-oriented astrology popular today.

[Ken McRae]

If Orthodoxy is the heir of Israel, the descendants of Abraham, I think we have as strong a case as any belief system in the world today as to longevity.

Clement of Alexandria agrees with you on that, as it appears from the following chapter of his Stromata:

Chapter XXI.—The Jewish Institutions and Laws of Far Higher Antiquity Than the Philosophy of the Greeks (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iv.i.xxi.html).

"On the plagiarizing of the dogmas of the philosophers from the Hebrews, we shall treat a little afterwards. But first, as due order demands, we must now speak of the epoch of Moses, by which the philosophy of the Hebrews will be demonstrated beyond all contradiction to be the most ancient of all wisdom. This has been discussed with accuracy by Tatian in his book To the Greeks, and by Cassian in the first book of his Exegetics. Nevertheless our commentary demands that we too should run over what has been said on the point."

See also: ABRAHAM'S INFLUENCE ON THE RELIGIONS OF EGYPT, PERSIA AND HINDOOSTAN (INDIA) (http://www.sacred-texts.com/mor/tboa/chap04.htm). In terms of his said influence upon the religions of India, it is interesting to note that Hindus regard the cow as sacred and that the Jews crafted themselves a golden calve, while Moses was upon the Mount with God. Some trace or connect the name Abrahm to the Brahmin cast of India; and others have traced out a remarkable similarity or parallell between Jewish Kabbalism and Hindu yogic philosophy.

[M.C. Steenberg]

There is a book, recently out in English from St Herman's press (originally written in Greek), called The Gurus, The Young Man, and Elder Paisius. This recounts the 'journey', as it were, of a young Greek man through Hinduism and back into the Orthodox Church, under the guidance throughout of Elder Paisius of Mount Athos.

The book is overly-emotive and overly-descriptive of private experiences for my liking (amongst some other issues I have with it); but to the present topic, it presents and interesting view of Hinduism from a modern Greek Orthodox perspective.

INXC, Dcn Matthew