Monastic diet (meat-eating) query

[W. Trimble]

I recently read mention of a monk eating 'meat' I believe in the life of St. Nilus Sorsky (late 15C), though I now cannot find the source. What is the patristic origin of monastic vegetarianism and the rule that monks cannot kill, which has been cited to me by monastics as the source of the practice? I found in a book on _The Byzantine Lists_, p. 46-7 here
http://books.google.ru/books?id=X8F9EghcuD8C&pg
criticism of Latin monks' eating of meat. The author then goes on to state that St. Basil had no problem with monks eating pork. I could not check the reference.

I have also heard that many Athonite monks eat whatever they like when on errands off the Holy Mtn. Anybody know about this?
I was also told once that Armenian monastics eat meat? Thanks in advance.

[Mourad Mankarios]

The practise of vegetarianism or even veganism can be found throughout much of ancient monastic literature. This practise can be explored throughout such texts as the apophthegmata or Sayings of the Desert Fathers, the rule of St Pachomius, the Ladder of Divine Ascent, the writings of St Isaac the Syrian, the Conferences and Institutes of St John Cassian and other texts. This practise was not so much as a result of the desire not to kill as the goal to practise an ascetic lifestyle which was simple and frugal in all things and whose main purpose was the suppression and overcoming of the passions.

In terms of the Latin rite which for the most part follows the rule of St Benedict meat is also forbidden and therefore most Catholic monasteries do practise vegetarianism or veganism.

As far as I understand the same practise is also followed on Mt Athos although fish may be eaten on certain Sundays.

Exceptions which one can find to this rule in some of the literature and in the practise of current monasteries is where a monastic may be experiencing some form of illness, is weak or travelling and it is difficult to maintain their diet. This of course is extended out of compassion to the monastic and to avoid undue distress. This would also most likely be followed in accordance with the guidance of the monastic's spiritual father.

With this said I believe that there are ceratin traditions where the current practise of the monastery is that monks can and do eat meat outside of fasting periods. An example of this is the Coptic church and possibly the Armenian as mentioned. However, from the witness of the monastic literature and texts available I believe that this would be a diversion from the ancient tradition and am not quite sure how this would have come about. This could have developed possibly as a result of the decline in monasticism, a lack of the availability of monastic literature and perhaps for other reasons I am unaware of.

[Michael Astley]

I would only clarify that St Benedict's Holy Rule only proscibes the flesh of four-legged animals. Poultry is permitted for Benedictine monastics, who are not strictly vegetarian. The actual practice may vary in Orthodox Benedictine monatic houses but I cannot say with certainty.

Pax,
Michael

[Mourad Mankarios]

I would only clarify that St Benedict's Holy Rule only proscibes the flesh of four-legged animals. Poultry is permitted for Benedictine monastics, who are not strictly vegetarian. The actual practice may vary in Orthodox Benedictine monatic houses but I cannot say with certainty.


I'm not sure if we can say that St Benedict's explicit prohibition of the meat of four-footed animals is a concession for the consumption of poultry. Plus there are places in the holy rule where meat in its generic sense is simply indicated without any particular qualifications attached. What can we make of this one specific reference to four-footed animals? I think that perhaps St Benedict may have had in mind the rare occasions on which fish may have been eaten or perhaps a concension for certain sick or weak brethren whose condition was not so severe, the consumption of four-footed animals and complete relaxation of the rule being extended only to those brethren whose sickness or weakness was more serious.

[W. Trimble]

Thanks for the responses. Mr. Mankarios, you imply that fish is not eaten at monasteries save at feast days and that some keep a vegan diet. This is quite shocking as fish is served at all monasteries I've ever visited, as well as cheese, except during fast periods. Apart form fast periods, it's all fish all the time. And during fast periods shellfish is served. Fishing is one of the self-sustaining activities on Mt. Athos (though I don't think monks sell fish), going out on a fishing boat there is a real treat.

Monks should eat simple food, I agree with that reading of the tone of the patristic passages Mr. Mankarios mentions; but I've been told on a couple of different occasions that 'monks do not kill'. What of that?

Any thoughts on the passage from St. Basil? Snouts and ears at trapeza! He, after all, was our greatest canonist. I wish I could find the specific reference but I can't.

[Ilaria]

I remember that I've read somewhere that the vegetarian meal is also a criteria of approaching the monastic life as an image of angelic life or as it was before the fall

Genesis:
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing
seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree,
in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed;

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

W. Trimble wrote:


Thanks for the responses. Mr. Mankarios, you imply that fish is not eaten at monasteries save at feast days and that some keep a vegan diet. This is quite shocking as fish is served at all monasteries I've ever visited, as well as cheese, except during fast periods. Apart form fast periods, it's all fish all the time. And during fast periods shellfish is served. Fishing is one of the self-sustaining activities on Mt. Athos (though I don't think monks sell fish), going out on a fishing boat there is a real treat.


It should be pointed out that W. Trimble is correct- the actual rule is that fish is allowed in monasteries on Sundays, Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays except when these occur during those major fast periods which would not allow such on these days.

The misunderstanding may have arisen from the fact that many Orthodox monasteries eat fish mainly on major feast days and Sundays.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Herman Blaydoe]

I have never heard that monastics shun meat because of a prohibition on "killing". I believe it is because of the long-held teaching that "blood" meats engender certain "passions". In order to help avoid those passions, they avoid meat. St. John of Kronstadt had very specific theories about food and the passions, he even tied specific passions to specific foods. Fish is not considered a "blood" meat so much, and chicken is considered less of a blood meat than beef.

It can be scientifically shown that avoiding meat does, in fact, produce physical changes. As a gross example, many organic gardeners know that to keep deer from eating crops, you can use urine. But it must be from a carnivore. Vegan urine doesn't bother deer at all, they have to buy commercially available wolf urine (I'm not kidding, you can check on Amazon.com if you don't believe me, or if you have a deer problem!).

Herman the omnivorous Pooh

[Andreas Moran]

I remember that a long time ago, Archimandrite Zacharias told me that Orthodox monastics avoid meat because they vow to fast always and avoiding meat is a way of complying with that vow. Doubtless, it is not the only reason.

[Cristina Novakovic]

Does meat influence/increase the hormonal levels in the body, which leads to certain passions?

[Carlos Antonio Palad]

I would only clarify that St Benedict's Holy Rule only proscibes the flesh of four-legged animals. Poultry is permitted for Benedictine monastics, who are not strictly vegetarian. The actual practice may vary in Orthodox Benedictine monatic houses but I cannot say with certainty.

Pax,
Michael

In practice, a lot of Benedictines and, I think, some Trappists now eat meat of all kinds.

[Paul Cowan]

In practice, a lot of Benedictines and, I think, some Trappists now eat meat of all kinds.

Yes, this is true. I am not Benedictine, but I have trapped rabbit, beaver and muscrat. They are all good eating, though the muscrat is quite greasy. The hardest thing though and I think another reason monks don't eat much meat is if the trap does not kill the animal, it takes a pretty heartless person to then walk up to it and slit it's throat and bleed it especially when you can see the fear in the animals eyes. Yes, I am also heartless and why I am not a monk. Fish on the other hand is not such a terrible thing to kill as it really does not have much blood and the gore factor is removed.

Paul

[W. Trimble]

I have never heard that monastics shun meat because of a prohibition on "killing". I believe it is because of the long-held teaching that "blood" meats engender certain "passions". In order to help avoid those passions, they avoid meat. St. John of Kronstadt had very specific theories about food and the passions, he even tied specific passions to specific foods. Fish is not considered a "blood" meat so much, and chicken is considered less of a blood meat than beef.

I'll just concur with the comment that such views were widespread in the ancient world where health was (and is still in much of Asia) viewed as a state of balance regulated through diet. Doctors in the ancient world prescribed food rather than or as well as medicine. I think the fathers inherited this view from the medical knowledge of their time. (I vaguely recall J. Pelikan mentioning this in his magisterial _Christianity and Classical Culture_.) And they must have observed it from their own experience of fasting, as we do during Great Lent. But I'm getting off-topic.
Should anyone have a response to the query about St. Basil's provision of pork, I'd be obliged. I will read some of the other threads which have come up since I've posted (and which did not come up when I searched before posting the query (why not?)).