Silent intercession?

[Mikhail R.]

If you ask a saint, for example Saint Mary, to intercede on your behalf, but you say it silently, can she hear you? Or does it have to be out loud for her to hear you?
Only God can know our thoughts. Only God is the all knowing. When we pray and ask for the intercession of the saints, it has to be out loud in order for them to hear us. However, God may reveal to the saints our thoughts and our wish for them to pray and intercede for us.

http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=530&catid=210
According to the Coptic Orthodox site, saints can hear prayers said out loud. If we say it in our heads, they won't hear it unless God reveals it to them. I was wondering if the Eastern Orthodox churches address this. I appreciate your help. :)

-Mikhail R.

[Paul Cowan]

I would like to know more on this as well. Not just only for the saints, but also the demons. It is my understanding, they cannot read our minds but are smart enough to know by a twitch in our neck if we are thinking somehting inappropriate. Or by a furled brow of anger. So if they are restrictive to outside emotional clues, perhaps the saints are as well? Can our guardian angel do more than the demons?

Paul

[Vasiliki D.]

I too would be interested in an elaborate patristical response to this ... I tend to be the silent prayer ... saying the words inside my heart/me ... I dont know how to phrase that ... but I especially have always wanted to know if demons are in the confessional room when we say our deepest inner thoughts to the Spiritual Father which otherwise we keep hidden from others.

Are they then allowed to take these confessions and use them against us?

[Owen Jones]

I believe that demons can use our best intentions against us. But I also believe that demons cannot stand the presence of the truth. They can only flee in the face of the truth. So if we are being honest and truthful and sincere in our confession, to the best of our ability and to the extent of our spiritual strength at the time, then we have nothing to fear. We should not fear demons, but be constantly attentive. The demons actually want us to live in fear of them and their influence because this distracts us from the one thing needful. They gain power over us through instilling fear, just as a political tyrant would want to instill fear among his subjects.

[Margaret S.]

According to the Coptic Orthodox site, saints can hear prayers said out loud. If we say it in our heads, they won't hear it unless God reveals it to them. I was wondering if the Eastern Orthodox churches address this. I appreciate your help. :)

-Mikhail R.

I must add myself to the people who would like to know more about this. As an Anglo-Catholic I read Darwell Stone's 'The Invocation of the Saints' and, as a Church of England clergyman defending a very minority practice in his day, I suppose he had to be conservative but his theory was similar to the one Mikhail quotes - that God reveals our prayers to the saints. It all happens, he said, in and through the Holy Spirit. This seemed such a perfect explanation to me that I have never bothered to read more but I wish I had. If our prayers are not 'filtered' through the Holy Spirit doesn't it mean that the saints are subjected to all the unholy, undesirable thoughts that come into our minds as we pray as well as our actual prayer?

Regards
Margaret
in Edinburgh

[Vasiliki D.]

I must confess the only prayers I truly read out loud - and I enjoy it so muc - is the Psalter. Funnily, in GREEK! The english doesnt have the same dynamism on the soul ...and reading it out loud there is something so mystical that takes place in the solitude of my room ... it really is quite lovely. The other prayers are hard to say out loud.

[Alice]

I must confess the only prayers I truly read out loud - and I enjoy it so muc - is the Psalter. Funnily, in GREEK! The english doesnt have the same dynamism on the soul ...and reading it out loud there is something so mystical that takes place in the solitude of my room ... it really is quite lovely. The other prayers are hard to say out loud.

I find that it is hard to muster up the wind to read prayers out loud, but then that is a problem I have. I think that I am considered somewhat soft spoken because I don't have the strength or the wind (and therefore the will) to yell, or argue, or speak loudly either...infact, if I do, my blood pressure feels as if it is going up!

So, I have always said my prayers silently, and I have never felt that they have not been heard because of it.

On the other hand, in order to rebuke the devil/demons, I heard somewhere that one needs to say the Jesus Prayer or the 'Isous Xristos Nika, ola ta kaka skorpa', etc., prayers outloud...but can't our silent prayers also rebuke them and protect us? Hmmmm...I am confused, because I have used both in questionable situations and they have worked both ways.

In Christ,
Alice

[Vasiliki D.]

Alice, I feel the way you do ... I only asked the question like everyone else because the thought never really crossed my mind that i am doing something wrong or right ... I would think, when we act in ignorance if we are sincere and have true love for Christ in our hearts I would think God looks on us compassionately because He knows we do not know better ... the rest I suppose is for a more experienced person to advise us.

For my part, I can only contribute at this point a recollection about how the Jesus Prayer is taught to the monks ... I read this somewhere and am paraphrasing of course. My understanding was that monks are taught to *say* the Jesus Prayer out loud (first) ... the reason is so that all of the five sences can participate in the prayer ... and to teach all of their human body to communicate as one body to God and to focos. So by saying the prayer out loud you push away thoughts (because your voice is louder than thoughts and serves as a distraction to thoughts) and so on and so forth.

As the monk becomes more experienced in the prayer, the prayer on its own starts to repeat itself inside them so that they come to a point after much practice that they can pray in silence ...

So, in some ways this probably shows that even silent prayers are heard ... ?

[Mikhail R.]

Well, the site I quoted does say God can hear silent prayers. The issue was whether the saints can. The site claims that they only hear audible intercessions, as only God can know our thoughts. If we make intercessions to a saint silently, they can only know of it if God reveals it to him/her. That was the issue in question.

[Allen Long]

Well, the site I quoted does say God can hear silent prayers. The issue was whether the saints can. The site claims that they only hear audible intercessions, as only God can know our thoughts. If we make intercessions to a saint silently, they can only know of it if God reveals it to him/her. That was the issue in question.


From my limited understanding, we and the saints are in the Body of Christ. By being in the Body of Christ, I assumed that they could hear our prayers. Demons outside the Body of Christ, cannot hear. Maybe that is too simplex of an understanding. I am open to hearing correction.

[Eric Peterson]

I think the idea of saying that only God can hear mental prayer is sort of overstepping the bounds of knowledge. How can someone know that for sure? It's not something that can be known without real spiritual experience, and I don't trust that most people who make such statements have it.

[Ilaria]

If we make intercessions to a saint silently, they can only know of it if God reveals it to him/her. That was the issue in question.I have had a discussion with my father on a issue very closed to this; the subject was: "are the saints everywhere, as God?Or they are limited by space, time? I mean, if in this instant I am praying here to St Nicholas and someone else there, how is he responding to us, both, in the same time?"
My father said that it is God Grace which they are filled with that works; we know saints that even in this earthly body behave "unusual": 2 monks, while on their way to Jerusalem, met a ill person; one of them said to the other: "Brother, you go to Jerusalem, I will stay to support this person"; when the monk arrived to the Holy Sepulcher, he saw his brother close to the Patriarch, in the Altar...
Elder Cleopa used to say: "Mysteries, my sons, we are not able to understand with our minds the works of God"
so, the saints hear our prayers, loud or silent, but to be from the 'deep of the heart"
when we enter the church, and there are a lot of people inside, and each of them is in front of a saint icon, how would it be, if everyone would loudly ask intercession?

[Vasiliki D.]

Now, you would think that when I first read a post I would remember certain things ... but this only came to my last night as i was wrestling with the heat in my bed ...

I recall it being said, that prayers are like incense burning up to God ... and it is the Angels that carry these prayers to God's feet ... the Elder said, that whether our prayer is to God or to a Saint to intercede to God ... it is the Angels that carry this to God's feet first ... and their is a "mystical delegation" of the prayer .. in that, if you were praying for the intercessions of a Saint, it is God who hears the prayer first and the Saint will pray to God that the intercession is heard because they have found favour with God and He then hears their prayers ...

The point is, that the prayers do not go first to the Saint who then approaches God ... God invites the Saints to pray with Him ... in some mystical way ... I wonder, if I could find a biblical citation about prayer in the Old Testament ...

[Paul Cowan]

I had the very same question. Perhaps reading through this thread (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3761) might help?

[Nina]

From my limited understanding, we and the saints are in the Body of Christ. By being in the Body of Christ, I assumed that they could hear our prayers. Demons outside the Body of Christ, cannot hear. Maybe that is too simplex of an understanding. I am open to hearing correction.

Yes this is what I know also. All things through God's Grace are possible.

[Vasiliki D.]

Yes this is what I know also. All things through God's Grace are possible.

That is a challenging statement in its own right Nina .. are ALL things possible in God's Grace or does God's Grace require some sacrifice on our behalf for some things to be possible? I am afraid, perhaps I am showing my mortal weakness now, not all things are possible ...

[Anna Stickles]

That is a challenging statement in its own right Nina .. are ALL things possible in God's Grace or does God's Grace require some sacrifice on our behalf for some things to be possible? I am afraid, perhaps I am showing my mortal weakness now, not all things are possible ...

All things are possible, but God does not do things entirely by His grace because He loves us enough to invite us to participate with Him. What's important to God is the relationship, not simply God doing things on His own.

But, "The human contribution in all this represents only a millionth of a millionth part -- a slight inclination, that is." Elder Prophyrios

We don't sacrifice because somehow God needs that sacrifice, -- What do we have to give Him that is not already His? but rather the fact that He gives us a life and a will and wealth and other things that we then have the opportunity to offer back to Him is a privledge that God gives because He loves us, even though for the most part the only thing we do with what He gives is spoil it and use it for the purposes He did not intend rather then actually give it back to Him in a pure sacrifice.

[Nina]

That is a challenging statement in its own right Nina .. are ALL things possible in God's Grace or does God's Grace require some sacrifice on our behalf for some things to be possible? I am afraid, perhaps I am showing my mortal weakness now, not all things are possible ...

Do not mind me. :) I try to simplify all things spiritual because it is hard for me to progress even in simple spiritual things. :)

However I know very well, that if my heart is screaming to St. Spyridon -let say- for help, God will allow him to know! It is one of those things I know in my heart. Maybe I am wrong. Plus it is not that there is a person seating in a central connection place and saying 'oops this prayer was silent. not allowed through.' I mean look at the perfection of everything surrounding us! Look how God has made all things! All things miracle! Of course He can allow us to pray silently and allow it to the saints to be known. If I am in a bus and I can't really pray loudly to a saint I have to pray silently.

[Nina]

"We know that prayer in and of itself cannot save us, but carrying it out before God can. For when the Lord’s eyes are upon us He sanctifies us, as the sun warms everything upon which it shines."

St. Gregory Palamas

PS This makes me teary...

[Father David Moser]

All this talk about "silent prayer" forces us to come back to the question of what prayer really is. Prayer in its essence is not "talking to God" but rather prayer is communion with God. Communication is a "low grade" form of communion, thus any prayer that involves "words" whether silent or spoken is an inferior form or prayer. The true and highest form of prayer is communion without words at all. "Silent prayer" is really no different from "spoken prayer" in that it requires the mind to formulate ideas into words by which we then communicate with God. These words are not for God's benefit but for ours since we are not sufficiently spiritually developed to commune without words and thus we require words for our prayer. In Church we always pray "aloud" for this is our communal prayer and we are not yet spiritually sufficiently developed to commune with God without words, let alone commune with one another without words. God, otoh, looks on our heart where there are no words. Silent or spoken is of no consequence - one should use whichever type of prayer is most beneficial in the context (I personally find that when I pray, even if I do not "voice" the words it helps to shape the words with my lips and tongue as this helps me to focus on my prayer - but that's just me)

Fr David Moser

[Michael Astley]

I remember saying the office in my Anglican days, and there being a rubric saying that the prayers ought to be chanted and, if that were not possible,then spoken, and if that were not possible, that the words ought to at least be formed by the lips. I took it to be a constant reminder tous that our bodies are as much a part of our being as our souls and that there is to be no disconnect between the mind, the soul, or the body, in prayer to God.

This was years ago and I suppose I just sort of internalised it and, as a result, that is just the way I now pray without giving it a second thought, that rubric having been long forgotten until now. I had been trying to figure out why I struggled to relate to the subject of this thread and I now realise that it is a question that has just never come up for me.

It has been an enlightening read, though.

M

[Wade]

According to the Coptic Orthodox site, saints can hear prayers said out loud. If we say it in our heads, they won't hear it unless God reveals it to them. I was wondering if the Eastern Orthodox churches address this. I appreciate your help. :)

-Mikhail R.

St. Theophan says in "The Spiritual Life" in chapter 15 starting page 70 that if you pray from the heart your prayers will be heard. This is not as easy as it sounds. Praying from the heart, for me, took some real effort. Sometimes I'm still not sure if I am "there" all the way.

God bless now and ever...
Wade