Greek and Russian practice: differences

[Michael Astley]

On another thread, Olga posted the following:


I echo Alex's observation. It is analogous to the Greek practice of the choir/chanters intoning "Most-holy Mother of God, save us" while the priest chants "Commemorating our most-holy, most-pure, most-blessed and glorious Lady ..." in litanies.

This is something that always confuses me. Not the practice, which I think is beautiful, but the idenftification of it as Greek.

We had Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco with us while he was in the UK recently and he found one or two of our practices interesting. We are a ROCOR parish with an English priest who was trained to serve the Liturgy by a hieromonk who had been formed in the Greek tradition. We follow the Slavic typikon but, occasionally, we do some things that are more prevalent in Greek practice.

One of the things that Vladyka commented on was the singing of Most Holy Mother of God, save us! during the litanies, identifying it as a Greek, not Russian, practice, which seems to corroborate what you have said here, Olga. I had never found it unusual as this was my first Orthodox church and I just thought that was what we did.

However, they don't do this at my local Antiochian parish and, when I asked the priest why, he said that they generally follow Greek practice and that this is a Russian custom.

I spoke with my parish priest about it and he said that, while he was trained by this Greek-formed priest, he did not learn the Most Holy Mother of God... from him but it was introduced to our parish by one lady who started singing it because she grew up with it being done in her parish in Russia.

So, what's going on? Are the boundaries of what is considered "Greek" or "Russian" now being blurred as people move around the world much more than previously they did, as communication is much better and more instant than it was even a half-century ago? Is this a bad thing? I'm thinking of how the Old Ritualist difficulties could perhaps have been avoided had there been more communication as the typikon developed in different places.

It's all very confusing. With the Most Holy Mother of God, save us, it seems that nobody wants to admit it's part of their tradition. I'm quite happy to claim it as an English Orthodox practice if nobody else wants it because I think it's lovely.

In Christ,
Michael

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Michael,

Thank you for the interesting questions. The practice of the chanter intoning 'Most holy Theotokos, save us' while the final petition of the litany ('Calling to remembrance our most holy, most pure...') is intoned by the deacon, is indeed a Greek practice, not Slavic. This is indeed a fairly widespread Greek practice; and while it does occasionally crop up in some Russian/Slavic contexts, this is rare, and usually arises via exposure to the Greek custom. A similar (though not as widespread) Greek practice of reader 'overlaying' the celebrant, is found in the 'Pray for him who blesses us...' prayer intoned by the reader/choir whilst the priest prays 'Through the prayers of our holy fathers...' at the end of vespers and some other services -- though, as I say, this is less common than the petition to the Mother of God, which is a (nearly) universal Greek custom.

(The practice with which I was - and am - unfamiliar, from the other thread, was not this, but rather that of singing 'eis polla eti, Despota' during the commemoration of the bishop in the litany.)

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Olga]

.... but it was introduced to our parish by one lady who started singing it because she grew up with it being done in her parish in Russia.



It is possible this Russian lady came from somewhere around the Black Sea, perhaps from Odessa or its surrounds. This region has been very cosmopolitan for centuries, as it was a hub of trade since Byzantine times. Odessa still maintains a centuries-old Greek minority. Similarly, Korsun in the Crimea, also on the Black Sea, was originally a Greek colony. Its Greek name was Khersonisos.

[Kusanagi]

One other difference is the Greeks tend to advise to people there is no need to confess before taking Holy Communion, while the Slavs and Romanians advise that they should confess before taking Holy Communion.

[Michael Astley]

It is possible this Russian lady came from somewhere around the Black Sea, perhaps from Odessa or its surrounds. This region has been very cosmopolitan for centuries, as it was a hub of trade since Byzantine times. Odessa still maintains a centuries-old Greek minority. Similarly, Korsun in the Crimea, also on the Black Sea, was originally a Greek colony. Its Greek name was Khersonisos.

She is from a town near Rostov, Olga. My knowledge of Russian geography is such that this information means little to me with regard to the location of her parish in relation to the Odessa area but your explanation would make sense. I believe there are other liturgical traditions, such as the arrangement of the altar, the vary from place to place within Russia.


One other difference is the Greeks tend to advise to people there is no need to confess before taking Holy Communion, while the Slavs and Romanians advise that they should confess before taking Holy Communion.

I, too, have noticed this. When I go to a Russian parish, it seems to be natural to just arrive, pray, and become one of a number of people waiting to confess. The proskomedi is done early enough to allow for this and it is just part of the normal flow of what happens on a Sunday morning. When I have been to an Antiochian or Greek parish, it has always been a case of having to catch the priest's attention to ask if I may make my confession, and while the priests in question have always been gracious and accommodated me, it hasn't taken much to see that this is a disruption to the normal flow of things for them. It just isn't something to which they're accustomed. Nowadays, I e-mail ahead and ask so that they can build it into their plans.

The difference in culture is all the more apparent when you compare what happens when one person approaches a priest in that way. When I have done this in the aforementioned parishes, the other faithful present must have noticed and thought, 'Oh, Michael's making his confession', before continuing with the prayers of Matins. However, on the occasion that I was serving at our (ROCOR) cathedral when one person who had arrived late asked me to re-enter the altar before communion to fetch a priest so that she could confess, the others who saw thought, 'Oh look, there's a priest hearing confessions. Let's go and confess'. The tear-jerking result was that we had two queues: the queue for Confession which fed the queue for Communion. Communion lasted for about a half hour and I would estimate that over 200 people were confessed and communicated that day from the hands of their bishop. It was one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen.


Consider what care and diligence they shewed who took part in the ancient sacrifices; how they gave themselves ever to cleansing and expiation. But thou drawest nigh to that Victim whom the very Angels worship in awe and wonder. How shalt thou stand at the judgment seat of Christ if thou darest to approach his very Body with hands and lips polluted? Thou wouldest not dare to kiss the feet of a king with a mouth reeking of foulness, yet with a foul and reeking soul dost thou kiss the King of heaven - a monstrous wrong!

Apart from the words of St John, of which I think all of us need to take heed, when I hear the words of absolution, declaring me forgiven and once again restored by God's grace to the path of light, I wonder why anybody would want to deprive himself of this. I sometimes wish I had a priest "on tap" so that I could confess during the week as well but distance prevents.

[Michael Astley]

Here (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html) is a very informative article.

I had been aware that the spreading of flora was a Greek custom, (although my parish does it), but I had not realised that the Holy Saturday vestment change was distinctly Russian

I also found the difference in the significance of the proskomedi prayers interesting. I only have Russian service books so did not know that there was a difference. Any thoughts? Why has this never been examined, (or at least, had never been at the time the article was written)?

[Anthony]

She is from a town near Rostov, Olga. My knowledge of Russian geography is such that this information means little to me with regard to the location of her parish in relation to the Odessa area but your explanation would make sense.

I believe there are a number of Greek communities in that area too. The region of Mariopol (Zhdanov under communism) particularly comes to mind.

[Olga]

Here (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html) is a very informative article.

Michael, it must be said that this article does contain various errors of fact. Here are some comments:

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=52644#poststop

[Michael Astley]

Michael, it must be said that this article does contain various errors of fact. Here are some comments:

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=52644#poststop

Thank you for this, Olga. I hadn't realised that this document had been previously discussed here. I agrew with some of your observations, though I would note that this address was originally given nearly 35 years ago. Some things may have been addressed in the meanwhile.

I, too, have never witnessed nor heard of people kneeling at the Cherubic Hymn, though I have heard of Antiochian, (not Greek in the examples I have had mentioned to me), parishes substituting Most Holy Mother of God, pray for us.

I wonder to what extent "disapora" communities' practices are reflective of the church in their respective parent countries.

[Anthony Stokes]

(The practice with which I was - and am - unfamiliar, from the other thread, was not this, but rather that of singing 'eis polla eti, Despota' during the commemoration of the bishop in the litany.)
INXC, Dcn Matthew


The more I think about, I have heard this done at either Greek or heavily Arab Antiochian parishes here in the U.S. I may have also heard it on a CD I have from Greece with the late Archbishop Christodoulos serving. I'm not sure about that though.

I have always known the "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" as a Greek and Antiochian tradition here in the U.S. I've never heard it done in any kind of Russian parish.

Sbdn. Anthony

[Michael Astley]

A difference that I have noticed is one not so much to do with liturgical practice but the structure of one of the liturgical books.

My Apostol is actually entitled The Apostolos, being a publication in the Greek tradition. Even though my parish follows the Russian tradition, which I generally prefer in many ways, I find that the Greeks have got the Apostol right. I find the Russian arrangement of the Apostol quite impossible to use.

The actual pericopes in the Russian arrangement are not arranged as pericopes but are combined as blocks of text, making it very difficult to find the readings without consulting the calendar. Instead of headings saying which portion of scripture is to be read on which day, there are just little footnotes telling you when the reading for a given day is supposed to end. Then the Prokeimenon and Alleluaria are on a completely different page at the back of the book.

All of this makes it very difficult at the best of times but on days when more than one Epistle is appointed, one has to switch back and forth between two or more prokeimena, epistles, and Alleluias. That could easily mean having to balance a large and heavy book on one hand while using the other to navigate between up to six places in the book. The difficulty is further compounded by the complete absence of ribbon markers, at least in the edition in use at my parish.

By contrast, the Greek tradition has each pericope printed in order as it used throughout the liturgical year, clearly headed, and giving the prokeimenon verses before, and the Alleluia verses after the reading. Everything is there on one page, and the edition I have contains the texts for both the Greek and Slavonic traditions on the occasions where they vary. Two ribbon markers are usefully provided for occasions where there is more than one Epistle, reducing fumbling, the risk of dropping the book, and minimising the risk of the distraction of the people.

Does anybody know what the origin of the difference is?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Michael Astley wrote:


My Apostol is actually entitled The Apostolos, being a publication in the Greek tradition. Even though my parish follows the Russian tradition, which I generally prefer in many ways, I find that the Greeks have got the Apostol right. I find the Russian arrangement of the Apostol quite impossible to use.

The actual pericopes in the Russian arrangement are not arranged as pericopes but are combined as blocks of text, making it very difficult to find the readings without consulting the calendar. Instead of headings saying which portion of scripture is to be read on which day, there are just little footnotes telling you when the reading for a given day is supposed to end. Then the Prokeimenon and Alleluaria are on a completely different page at the back of the book.

Are you using a Slavonic Apostol or a translation of this into English?

The Slavonic Apostol we have in our parish isn't too difficult to use once you have learned how to read the slavonic numbering for the pericopes. Even if one has troubles with this however one can still look up the standard notation for readings (eg 2 Pet 2: 9-11) and then find 2 Peter and the appropriate chapter and verses. The pericopes are always clearly marked along with appropriate beginnings at the bottom of the page marked with an asterisk. Getting the matching prokeimen and alleluia if you are doing more than the resurrectional tone of the week can be a challenge- but not once you figure out how everything is put into its category of feasts and general saints. Our apostol even has oodles of ribbons!

I have heard though that the order of the Slavonic Apostol differs from the Greek. But I don't know what these differences are or why they exist.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Anthony Stokes]

My Apostol is actually entitled The Apostolos, being a publication in the Greek tradition. Even though my parish follows the Russian tradition, which I generally prefer in many ways, I find that the Greeks have got the Apostol right. I find the Russian arrangement of the Apostol quite impossible to use.
...
Does anybody know what the origin of the difference is?

I find some of the differences interesting, especially with the prokeimena and alleluia, since the Greeks in America don't even do them in the traditional way, they just read them quickly with no singing or responses. I also don't remember ever reading more than one epistle when I read them in the GOA.

The Slavonic set up is a bit confusing at first, but once you learn it is quite simple and makes more sense when you have multiple readings on a weekday. There is no way that the Greek Apostolos can be set up for every single day, not even the Gospel books can do that, because each year is different. But, if you don't so multiple readings, then it would be ok. If you are doing multiple readings, then they will be separated, and the lectionary in the back of the book must be used anyway. Same thing the with the prokeimena. If they are done properly, with multiple prokeimena, than the Greek setup wouldn't be much help.

I think that the difference in practice of multiple readings is probably what led to the difference in books. That's just my opinion from someone who has used both.

Sbdn. Anthony

[Michael Astley]

Michael Astley wrote:
Are you using a Slavonic Apostol or a translation of this into English?

It is an English-language translation. I don't know the provenance or what it even looks like as it has been given a velvet cover.


Our apostol even has oodles of ribbons!

I envy you. :-)


I have heard though that the order of the Slavonic Apostol differs from the Greek. But I don't know what these differences are or why they exist.

They do indeed differ. I don't know the historyof the variations by my own apostol does indicate instances where the Slavic texts differ from the Greek ones for the Prokimenon and Alleluia verses. In those cases, both sets of texts are provided, (usually with the Slavic tradition simply having a longer excerpt from the psalms). I have also noticed differences in the lengths of some Epistles. in both cases, the Slavic tradition seems to be longer.

[Andreas Moran]

I have never heard 'Most Holy Mother of God . . . ' chanted over the commemoration in Russia but then I've never been any further south in Russia than Divyevo, and, apart from Moscow, more often in the north, as far as Kyrillov (White Lake) and Feropontova. I can never take holy communion in Russia without confession the evening before or on the morning. Furthermore, if in a church or monastery where we are not known, my wife has to explain how I became Orthodox - the priest will ask, 'who received him?'