The holy innocents: do children mature in the Kingdom?

[Fr. Alexander Resnikoff]

Dear Forum,

I was posed a very interesting question today to which I had no references. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

The Holy Innocents or indeed any baptized (Orthodox) infant that dies very early on... do they mature in Heaven? i.e. become reasoning adults (spiritually speaking)? Or do they remain in their infant like/child like innocence for all eternity or any possibility until their bodies are restored to them at the Great Judgment?

I have heard it said that they become angels in Heaven - though theologically I have a problems with that. Specifically that angels are separate Creatures (at least 9 species that we know of - though I can never think of the 9th) to human beings, and do not have the Image and Likeness of God as we do. So while they may join the angelic ranks, they are not angels as they have human souls.

So... has anyone ever asked or heard a response to this question?

In XC,
o. Alexander

[Kusanagi]

I think it is correct to say they become like angels. I attended a baptism of a Jewish convert recently and the Fr said this to strengthen him due to his young daughter dying a few months after birth.

"Do not worry about your daughter she is with the angels, I know from experience as my own daughter died as well."

Paraphrasing a bit. But the child was baptised before passing away and I think Fr Cleopa says because of their innocence and pureness of soul they are close to God like the angels. (Maybe a special place in Heaven?)

I do not think they mature in Heaven as there is no time in Heaven and no one grows infirm like they do on earth.

Child Martyrs or saints that have visited the faithful from Heaven never showed themselves as adults but as how they were when they died.

Also i have read that humans are meant to be the 10th order of "angels", but i do not look into this much as its not really important.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Father,

No, infants when they repose couldn't possibly become angels. They are human in nature and remain so. Possibly the connection with angels arose due to the relative innocence of an infant. (it would be interesting to see what language is used in the funeral for a child. I think the litany is reworded to remove the references to previous sin which are found in the funeral for laity).

In any case the question of an infant's continuing growth after death is very interesting. I can't recall a direct Patristic reference right now.

I would think though that some kind of growth does occur since there is an aspect of immaturity as seen in infants which I think reflects the Fall.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Ilaria]

"but are as the angels which are in heaven"
though the human and the angels are different by nature, from Christ's words it seems to me that a kind of likeness might be
and what about the monastics, who are called "the angelic path" ...

[Allen Long]

Related to the growth of babies who were baptized, what of those who are aborted? Will the grow into fully developed human beings (thinking of the in vitro babies)?

[Moses Ibrahim]

Related to the growth of babies who were baptized, what of those who are aborted? Will the grow into fully developed human beings (thinking of the in vitro babies)?

Our merciful God works with man, and in this case God certainly permits in vitro fertilization, (as He is long-suffering and has not wiped those who practice this off the face of the earth although we stand against this method) however the success rate of those who survive is only 25%.

Babies (baptized or not) return to the Sustainer of life when they die. Does one stop maturing in the age to come? In my opinion, this is impossible as one can never reach perfection or completion since God himself is only perfect and nothing is comparable to God. Paraphrasing St. Gregory of Nyssa: those who are in heaven will move from "glory to glory" and this will take place for all eternity unfathomable as this may be (all immortal beings including babies and fully developed human beings and I would even venture to say the angels as well).

[Fr. Alexander Resnikoff]

Seems to me that this may remain a mystery to be revealed at the end of time.

That said - thank you again for your thoughts and insights!

In XC,
oA

[Kusanagi]

Related to the growth of babies who were baptized, what of those who are aborted? Will the grow into fully developed human beings (thinking of the in vitro babies)?

Fr Cleopa said aborted babies lie in a place neither hell or heaven where its neither light nor dark and they are always asking God why they were not allow to be born and wants justice.

Having said that they do not grow up in heaven.

[Christopher Dombrowski]

Also i have read that humans are meant to be the 10th order of "angels", but i do not look into this much as its not really important.

Well, we are the 10th order of noetic creatures. I don't know if that makes us angels.


"but are as the angels which are in heaven"
though the human and the angels are different by nature, from Christ's words it seems to me that a kind of likeness might be
and what about the monastics, who are called "the angelic path" ...

Humans are essentially the "via media" (to borrow Anglican terminology) between angels and animals. We possess a corps and an animus as animals, but also a nous as the angels. There is a strong connection to angels because of our noetic nature.

[Seda S.]

Well, we are the 10th order of noetic creatures. I don't know if that makes us angels.
.

Dear Christopher, in which patristic sources can one find information concerning this 10th order? I have read about the opinion that human beings will take the place of the fallen angels in the hierarchy of heavenly orders, but I didn't know about this 10th order.

[Christopher Dombrowski]

Dear Christopher, in which patristic sources can one find information concerning this 10th order? I have read about the opinion that human beings will take the place of the fallen angels in the hierarchy of heavenly orders, but I didn't know about this 10th order.

Well, noetic basically means "rational". It's a notion somewhat derived from the Neo-Platonic influences of the Fathers. The nous (the "eye of the soul") is where our personhood is derived from. The Tradition only attributes personhood to noetic creatures. Angels are understood to be noetic in a way similar to us, whereas the Trinity is understood to be noetic in a way very much transcendent to us. I have heard from a number of patristic sources that God created angels and then animals, and finally he created humans as a microcosm of all reality, bearing the physicality of the material (corps), the liveliness of animals (animus), the rationality of the angels (nous), and finally the image and likeness of God. Jesus Christ is the ultimate microcosm because not only does he bear all of these four components, but even is also by nature God. I don't have any explicit patristic sources on hand, but I will try to find some. This is pretty common Orthodox anthropology, so others may have sources in mind as well.

[Father David Moser]

I don't have any explicit patristic sources on hand, but I will try to find some. This is pretty common Orthodox anthropology, so others may have sources in mind as well.

I have never heard of this 10 noetic order teaching so I would be extremely interested as well in some kind of authoritative source for it in Orthodoxy.

Fr David Moser

[Christopher Dombrowski]

I have never heard of this 10 noetic order teaching so I would be extremely interested as well in some kind of authoritative source for it in Orthodoxy.

Fr David Moser

I'm not speaking of the "10th noetic order" language itself. What I'm pointing out is that God created nine orders of incorporeal noetic beings called angels, which I'm pretty sure is undisputed. Further, God created an array of living beings that we know to be plants and animals that are generally regarded to be not noetic. Finally, God created a last species of being called human, who was composed of corps, animus, nous, and the imageo dei. I'm sure none of that is disputed either. This is simply the point I was trying to make, that in the Patristic mentality, humankind was the 10th group to be created that was noetic. I don't imagine that would be debated. That this leads me to agree to us being called "the 10th noetic order" appears to be a logical conclusion of this Patristic background, rather than something the Church Fathers themselves explicitly said.

[Father David Moser]

That this leads me to agree to us being called "the 10th noetic order" appears to be a logical conclusion of this Patristic background, rather than something the Church Fathers themselves explicitly said.

Ah, yes, I understand now. The nine angelic ranks are detailed by Dionysius the Great and they are reiterated in the Great Menologion of St Dimitri of Rostov. Thank you for explaining your thinking here in greater detail.

Fr David Moser

[Christopher Dombrowski]

Ah, yes, I understand now. The nine angelic ranks are detailed by Dionysius the Great and they are reiterated in the Great Menologion of St Dimitri of Rostov. Thank you for explaining your thinking here in greater detail.

Fr David Moser

You're welcome. I hope I didn't cause any substantial confusion.

[John Wilson]

I've been told or heard on a couple of occasions that we will all be 33 years of age, the age of Christ in His human nature. Something that lends support to this is a dream my father in-law had when he was suffering from lung cancer and was about to start treatment. In his dream a young man introduced himself as his brother in-law, giving his name also, and gave him details about the results of his upcoming treatment and his eventual death. After having this dream he asked his wife whether she had a brother as he only knew of her having one sister. It turned out that she had a brother who had died before birth and was to have been named as he heard in his dream, All that he had been told in his dream also came to pass just as he had been told.

In Christ,
John

[Christopher Dombrowski]

I've been told or heard on a couple of occasions that we will all be 33 years of age, the age of Christ in His human nature. Something that lends support to this is a dream my father in-law had when he was suffering from lung cancer and was about to start treatment. In his dream a young man introduced himself as his brother in-law, giving his name also, and gave him details about the results of his upcoming treatment and his eventual death. After having this dream he asked his wife whether she had a brother as he only knew of her having one sister. It turned out that she had a brother who had died before birth and was to have been named as he heard in his dream, All that he had been told in his dream also came to pass just as he had been told.

In Christ,
John

I definitely think that there is a substance in this idea that is pointing to the truth. Realistically, with respect to our physicality, there is a certain level of development that indicates our "prime". After this point we begin to age and essentially start dying. With the resurrection having reversed the effects of death, I would imagine such aging could not be present. Furthermore, a lack of development before this prime also indicates a certain form of "imperfection", so to speak, in which we are not done developing. If our bodies are really to be perfected, I would imagine there wouldn't be much room for us to be physically underdeveloped either. Thus, I think there is a prime stage of physical development in which we will exist in our resurrected bodies. I just don't know if I'm willing to pin that down to age 33.