The Church in North America - relations between jurisdictions

[Jaye Keith Curtis]

An aside: what is the reason that some OCA posters are describing their Church as "Russian Orthodox"? Is there a movement afoot to annul the autocephaly and return to the Russian Church? Perhaps to faciliate the union of the OCA and the Russian Church Abroad in the States?


I think it would be a nice thing to see all of the Russian & Former Russian (OCA) groups be reunited under the Moscow Patriarchate, just as it was before the Bolshevik Revolution. :)

[Herman Blaydoe]

I think it would be a nice thing to see all of the Russian & Former Russian (OCA) groups be reunited under the Moscow Patriarchate, just as it was before the Bolshevik Revolution. :)

Why? There is no more Czar in Russia, as it was before the Bolshevik Revolution. The OCA is not disunited with the Moscow Patriarch, simply independent. No "reuniting" is really necessary. This is how the Orthodox Church works. What would be the compelling advantage of Americans being under the Russian Church at this point? That is sort of like having your kids move back in after moving out. Thanks but no thanks.

I see an alternative path: instead of the current standing council of “canonical” Orthodox bishops in America (SCOBA), it may be time to form a separate Synod of Orthodox Churches in North America. This could be initiated by the OCA and AOCA, with Metropolitans Philip and Jonah forming this synod as co-chairs. Concurrently or soon after, invite the participation of ROCOR and some of the smaller jurisdictions. Once there are more than two churches, they can have the “chair” rotate every so-many years between each Church or decide on some sort of representative participation based on the size of each jurisdiction, or elect a head like ROCOR does now. They're bishops and responsible adults, I suspect they can figure something out.

Herman the not a Russian Pooh

[Jaye Keith Curtis]

Why? There is no more Czar in Russia, as it was before the Bolshevik Revolution. The OCA is not disunited with the Moscow Patriarch, simply independent. No "reuniting" is really necessary. This is how the Orthodox Church works. What would be the compelling advantage of Americans being under the Russian Church at this point? That is sort of like having your kids move back in after moving out. Thanks but no thanks.

I see an alternative path: instead of the current standing council of “canonical” Orthodox bishops in America (SCOBA), it may be time to form a separate Synod of Orthodox Churches in North America. This could be initiated by the OCA and AOCA, with Metropolitans Philip and Jonah forming this synod as co-chairs. Concurrently or soon after, invite the participation of ROCOR and some of the smaller jurisdictions. Once there are more than two churches, they can have the “chair” rotate every so-many years between each Church or decide on some sort of representative participation based on the size of each jurisdiction, or elect a head like ROCOR does now. They're bishops and responsible adults, I suspect they can figure something out.

Herman the not a Russian Pooh

I think that every jurisdiction should be at least somewhat under the umbrella of a Patriarchate. Your idea sounds like a good one, but I think, at least in the case of ROCOR & OCA, that we should certainly unite at least to some degree....:)

Jaye the Russophile :)

[Father David Moser]

I think that every jurisdiction should be at least somewhat under the umbrella of a Patriarchate.

Hmmm, sounds kinda papal to me. Many of the self governing Churches do not have a Patriarch - the OCA is neither the first nor the only to be headed by a Metropolitan. The Church of Cypress is self governing and headed by an Archbishop and this has been the case for centuries.


Your idea sounds like a good one, but I think, at least in the case of ROCOR & OCA, that we should certainly unite at least to some degree....:)

Such a unity would be extremely complex and difficult to achieve. There is a lot of "history" between ROCOR and the OCA and not much of it is friendly. Even within ROCOR at the Synodal level (let alone the lower levels) there are widely differing opinions on what our relationship with the OCA should be. I honestly don't know about the OCA, however, I don't doubt you'd get a similar range of opinions. Before we start worrying about unity between ROCOR and the OCA maybe these two administrations should work on their own internal consensus of what the relationship between the two bodies might look like. That way we don't end up working against ourselves.

Fr David Moser

[Jaye Keith Curtis]

Hmmm, sounds kinda papal to me. Many of the self governing Churches do not have a Patriarch - the OCA is neither the first nor the only to be headed by a Metropolitan. The Church of Cypress is self governing and headed by an Archbishop and this has been the case for centuries.



Such a unity would be extremely complex and difficult to achieve. There is a lot of "history" between ROCOR and the OCA and not much of it is friendly. Even within ROCOR at the Synodal level (let alone the lower levels) there are widely differing opinions on what our relationship with the OCA should be. I honestly don't know about the OCA, however, I don't doubt you'd get a similar range of opinions. Before we start worrying about unity between ROCOR and the OCA maybe these two administrations should work on their own internal consensus of what the relationship between the two bodies might look like. That way we don't end up working against ourselves.

Fr David Moser

Fr. Bless:

Yes, I know there are problems, historically. (and Heavens, no, I don't want the Papal thing!) but it seems to me, (and I am a convert, so I have a different perspective), that we have more in common, than we do that separates us. I know that my Parish has an OCA Church nearby, and we get along. :)

Perhaps you know my Priest, Fr. John Whiteford? :)

Maybe in time, it will all work out.

[Michael Astley]

I see an alternative path: instead of the current standing council of “canonical” Orthodox bishops in America (SCOBA), it may be time to form a separate Synod of Orthodox Churches in North America. This could be initiated by the OCA and AOCA, with Metropolitans Philip and Jonah forming this synod as co-chairs. Concurrently or soon after, invite the participation of ROCOR and some of the smaller jurisdictions. Once there are more than two churches, they can have the “chair” rotate every so-many years between each Church or decide on some sort of representative participation based on the size of each jurisdiction, or elect a head like ROCOR does now. They're bishops and responsible adults, I suspect they can figure something out.

This is certainly sensible and canonically proper.

Notwithstanding Father David's observations on the relationship between ROCOR and OCA, I think we do need to face the fact that ROCOR was never intended as a permanently separate ecclesiastical body, and the necessity for its existence as such no longer exists. Now that the fullness of communion has been restored, canonically, what should happen is that, in time, and with pastoral sensitivity, we should be absorbed into the autocephalous churches of the places where we find ourselves.

In reality, we all know that it isn't quite so simple due to matters such as ecumenism, the calendar, the degree to which different churches adhere to principles and traditions that we have received, and how far and in what circumstances economy is extended in church life, not to mention the fact that some places have no autocephalous church or may have more than one claimant of such status in the same geographical area. However, in spite of this, there is talk of resolving the situation in Western Europe with the proposed Metropolia. If this does happen, it will absorb parishes and monasteries that currently form three dioceses of ROCOR.

In the USA, the canonical autocephalous church recognised by Moscow is the OCA, (although one must wonder why Moscow has its own communities in North America, having already granted autocephaly to a local church there). Who but God knows what will happen?

[D. W. Dickens]

It seems to me if you'll gather around my Bishop to receive the gifts and if I'm allowed to gather around your's, there is no problem.

Everything else is budgets, politics and personality.

I'm not saying there aren't legitimate concerns about pastoral choices in other jurisdictions. But as long as they don't sever the communion, I won't lose sleep over them. I know that some worry these divisions aren't not a good witness, but as a recent convert I was only briefly worried about them.

It cannot be forced before it's time and once the time has come it cannot be stopped.

(OK, the Calendar thing does wig me out sometimes, but it's merely my own lack of faith, not anyone else's error.)

[Herman Blaydoe]

Such a unity would be extremely complex and difficult to achieve. There is a lot of "history" between ROCOR and the OCA and not much of it is friendly. Even within ROCOR at the Synodal level (let alone the lower levels) there are widely differing opinions on what our relationship with the OCA should be. I honestly don't know about the OCA, however, I don't doubt you'd get a similar range of opinions. Before we start worrying about unity between ROCOR and the OCA maybe these two administrations should work on their own internal consensus of what the relationship between the two bodies might look like. That way we don't end up working against ourselves.

Fr David Moser

Father bless!

I certainly concur with everything you've said, but I can't help but feel hopeful that a former abbot of an OCA monastery named after a ROCOR saint might be able to work to heal some of those old wounds.

Again, I see a synod between the OCA and AOCA as most likely in the near term. I would hope that the ROCOR churches in the US might be willing to join into a synodal arrangement at some point, along with some of the smaller jurisdictions as well. It might even serve as a vehicle to regularize some of those little vagante Orthodox groups started by Vilatte and Ofiesh back into "mainstream" Orthodoxy, at least the ones that do, in fact, espouse a traditional and conciliar Orthodoxy without the married bishops and female clergy.

Anyway, just some little thoughts from a bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Herman Blaydoe]

In the USA, the canonical autocephalous church recognised by Moscow is the OCA, (although one must wonder why Moscow has its own communities in North America, having already granted autocephaly to a local church there). Who but God knows what will happen?

IIRC, when the OCA was granted autocephaly, there were several churches that did not want to leave the omophorion of Moscow. They were simply allowed to stay under the MP.

Herman the Pooh

[Alex Haig]

IIRC, when the OCA was granted autocephaly, there were several churches that did not want to leave the omophorion of Moscow. They were simply allowed to stay under the MP.

No one can make a mess of things as well as the Orthodox; imagine if every party had to go in front of a secular judge and argue their position based on our own canons: would any church be found innocent?!

In Xp

Alex