'Heart of Mary' in St John Chrysostom?

[Matthew S.]

Greetings,

This is my first post on Monachos. By way of introduction, I am a Roman Catholic who is an "on again, off again" inquirer into Orthodoxy. My interests include patristics, which is the reason for my post today. I'm hoping that there is someone here who is familiar enough with the Fathers, in particular, Chrysostom, who can assist me.

During a discussion with another Roman Catholic aquaintance concerning Eastern Orthodoxy, I mentioned that the Eastern Orthodox generally speaking don't place a special emphasis on "body parts." He seemed suprised, as he was recently told by his spiritual director to begin the devotion of "The Seven Sorrows of the Blessed Virgin Mary" where there is a quote from Chrysostom that explicitly (to him) speaks of Mary's immaculate heart. This devotion is based on the writings of Alphonsus de Liguori.

I have done some internet research and have yet to find any reference to this quote outside of its mention in this devotion. Here is the quote:

"Anyone who had been present then on Mount Calvary, would have seen two altars on which two great sacrifices were being offered: the one in the body of Jesus, and the other in the heart of Mary."

Can anyone provide a legitimate reference for this quote attributed to Chrysostom? And if it can be substantiated, what would the Orthodox response to it be?

Thank you in advance. I look forward to your comments.

-Matthew

[Michael Stickles]

I looked at Liguori's The Dolours of Mary (http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/7DOLORS.htm) on the EWTN website, and interestingly, I see that the quote is attributed to two different people (in slightly different forms) in that devotion.

In "On the fifth dolour", I read:


"Whoever then was present on the Mount of Calvary," says Saint John Chrysostom, "might see two altars, on which two great sacrifices were consummated; the one in the body of Jesus, the other in the heart of Mary."

But back in the introduction, I see:


Whence the holy Abbot Arnold of Chartres says, "that whoever had been present on Mount Calvary, to witness the great sacrifice of the Immaculate Lamb, would there have beheld two great altars, the one in the body of Jesus, the other in the heart of Mary; for, on that mount, at the same time that the Son sacrificed His body by death, Mary sacrificed her soul by compassion."

Searching for quotes like these, the only hits I got with St. John Chrysostom are in texts of this devotion. But I found plenty of attributions of this quote, or some variation on it, to Abbot Arnold of Chartres. I think the most likely explanation is that the attribution to St. John is in error, and it should have been attributed to Abbot Arnold in both places.

If St. John did ever say something like this, it would probably have to be in a work for which no English translation exists online.

In Christ,
Michael

[Vasiliki D.]

Greetings, "The Seven Sorrows of the Blessed Virgin Mary" -Matthew

Is this what you mean or refer to by the Seven Sorrows of the Blessed Virgin mary:

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User:Ixthis888/Apocalypse_of_Holy_Mother_concerning_chastisements

[Olga]

Here is an excerpt from the link Vasiliki provided:


And as she said the word the archangel Michael descended with the angels of the East and the West and angels of the South and the North, and they saluted the highly favoured one and said to her,
Hail, reflection of the Father,
Hail dwelling of the Son,
Hail command of the Holy Spirit,
Hail firmament of the seven heavens,
Hail firmament of the eleven strongholds,
Hail worship of the angels,
Hail loftier than the prophets unto the throne of God.

And the holy mother of God said to the angel, Hail Michael, commander-in-chief, the minister of the invisible Father,
Hail Michael, commander-in-chief, associate of my Son,
Hail Michael, commander-in-chief, most dread of the six-winged,
Hail Michael, commander-in-chief, who rules through all things and art worthy to stand beside the throne of the Lord,
Hail Michael, commander-in-chief, who art about to sound the trumpet and awaken those who have been asleep for ages:
Hail Michael, commander-in-chief, first of all unto the throne of God.

And having greeted all the angels in like manner, the highly favoured one prayed the commander-in-chief regarding the chastisements, saying, Tell to me all things on the earth.

Several things stand out to me when reading this, and the text of the devotion in general. Here are but two concerns of mine:

1. The description of the Mother of God as "highly favoured", which has an unfortunate non-Orthodox ring to it. Kekharitomeni/Blagodatnaya cannot be properly translated as "highly favoured".

2. The Mother of God is more honourable and more glorious than the hosts on high. In icons of the Annunciation, she is shown sitting, with her feet on a raised platform, while the Archangel Gabriel stands. He defers to her, not the other way around. Gabriel's deference to her is also reflected in the words of the Akathist to the Mother of God. So why, in this devotion, is she deferring to the Archangel?

[Vasiliki D.]

Hi Olga,

These are very good questions and you are right in speculating about the "Apocalypse of Mary". I did not post the link to encourage it as an Orthodox source .. I was merely trying to identify if this is the text that the previous poster was referring to since they seemed vaguely similar ... and then, having established if this is the text he is or isnt referring to .. follow through with an appropriate discussion about whether it is Orthodox, RC or whatever ...

What I DO know about this text (and for what its worth I quite like this text but not as an Orthodox source or dogma but merely because I love its overall point. I have never questioned its authenticity against Orthodox dogma bc it doesnt interest me) is that it is considered Christian Apocrypha and it exists in Greek manuscripts and has been printed by the Tischendorf collection (Codex Apocryphus Novi Testamenti).

So, now we have more interesting comments to look forward to!

[Michael Stickles]

Vasiliki,

Matthew S. can confirm this one way or the other, but The Apocalypse of Holy Mother concerning chastisements which you linked, and The Dolours [Sorrows] of Mary which I linked, don't seem at first glance to have much in common at all. The Dolours lists seven specific sorrows, all related to her Son - St. Simeon's prophecy; the flight to Egypt; losing Jesus in the tempple; meeting Him on the way to Golgotha; His death; His side being pierced and Him being taken down; and His burial. The Apocalypse seems to deal with her sorrows at seeing the sufferings of lost humanity. They are focused in different directions.

In Christ,
Michael