Reading the fathers: where to start?

[Keith Cheesman]

Ok, so I've read the Bible, and I've read some modern "introductions" to Orthodoxy. What would you guys recommend as a good start to reading some of the Fathers?

[Herman Blaydoe]

Ok, so I've read the Bible, and I've read some modern "introductions" to Orthodoxy. What would you guys recommend as a good start to reading some of the Fathers?

Well, how about right here at Monachos (http://www.monachos.net/content/patristics)? Or just click on "Patristics" on the menu on the left side of the window.

Herman

[Ryan]

It probably depends somewhat on your inclinations, but reading lives or sayings of the saints might be a good start.

A collection of great quotes:

http://www.balamandmonastery.org.lb/fathers/indexsayings2.htm

Bishop Nikolai's Prologue from Ochrid, full of saints' lives, homilies, and poetry:

http://www.pomog.org/ochrid.shtml

Good luck in your search, and welcome to the forum!

[Michael Stickles]

You might also check out the threads in our Book Reviews area (http://www.monachos.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&f=376&page=1&pp=20&prefixid=&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1) to get some ideas.

Michael

[Olga]

Keith, if you want to know more about iconography and liturgics, let me know.

[Nina]

Ok, so I've read the Bible, and I've read some modern "introductions" to Orthodoxy. What would you guys recommend as a good start to reading some of the Fathers?

Do you have a spiritual father, or an Orthodox priest who is instructing you in Orthodoxy? Maybe you can ask also his blessing and opinion about books (mine at the moment has given me blessing to stop all Patristic readings and read only NT and Psalms :) ). He who knows more about your specific circumstances, special interests can advise you better.

What I find amazing are books about Saints' lives. Agiography (even the short versions) is Orthodoxy in practice and a source of motivation and inspiration. This kind of reading also forges a relationship with different saints, whose lives might appeal to you, or you might relate to. Both, full biography, or condensed versions are a blessing to read.

"Wounded by Love" by Elder Porphyrios is a book for every stage of spiritual life. "Philokalia" is an excellent instruction. Saint Theophan the Recluse's instructions on spiritual life are priceless also. Also Cabasilas' "The Life in Christ" and his explanation of the Divine Liturgy are marvelous. Also the "Life of St. Anthony" by St. Athanasius is amazing. Since we are in the period of Lent maybe also you can check out the "Great Lent" by Fr. Schmemman.

There is a thread about books read during Lent here on monachos. :) Happy reading!

[Rick H.]

I agree with Ryan about your inclinations. Along this line, I would suggest that you browse through one of the volumes of the Philokalia and see what you think. I remember the first time I picked up one of these books in a book store (vol. #1), I sat down with it and after about 5 mins knew that this one was going home with me that day.

[Vasiliki D.]

I agree with Nina in that no matter what you think .... the Spiritual Fathers guidance is the best way for you ... you might want to read Patristics and he might think you should read the Bible only ...who knows, the best way to start ..is to start with the Spiritual Father and work your way down the line.

[Rick H.]

VV--Most Protestant enquirers don't have spiritual fathers.

[Andreas Moran]

The book that delighted me when I started was Dorotheos of Gaza, Discourses. Sounds dry but I really enjoyed it, especially when Dorotheos is asked to coach young Dosithy, and Dorotheos replies, 'who - me?' But he does and the way it's described is lovely.

[D. W. Dickens]

The book that delighted me when I started was Dorotheos of Gaza, Discourses. Sounds dry but I really enjoyed it, especially when Dorotheos is asked to coach young Dosithy, and Dorotheos replies, 'who - me?' But he does and the way it's described is lovely.

This is a very good book. I recommend Dorotheos very highly.

I would NOT recommend the Philokalia. In fact, I wouldn't recommend anyone read it without the guidance of their spiritual father. I might even say, don't ask to read it, wait until they recommend you read it.

[Owen Jones]

Start with sermons, not theological treatises.

[Owen Jones]

I notice that we have spiritual homilies of St. Macarius, but also take a look at homilies on prayer by Theophan the Recluse, a modern saint. Since it is not translated in a stilted somewhat archaic English it's easier to understand. I'm not sure where you can get the homilies of St. John Chrysostom on the web, but that would be a great body of work to go through. Again, I would not start out with theology, but with homilies. Maybe some Biblical commentaries, but for a novice, many of them are quite difficult to follow until you begin to pick up the whole Patristic mindset, and this is best done through homilies.

[Rick H.]

Well there you have it Keith! :)


Read the Philokalia . . . Don't read the Philokalia

Click on patristics/theological treatises . . . . Don't click on patristics/theological treatises


I think it was Herman the Pooh who once said something like, 'We are not talking about an organized religion, we are talking about Orthodoxy.'


Welcome to the forum. Good luck.


PS To start with sermons/homilies as Owen and Ryan suggested sounds good.

[D. W. Dickens]

I think it was Herman the Pooh who once said something like, 'We are not talking about an organized religion, we are talking about Orthodoxy.'
PS To start with sermons/homilies as Owen and Ryan suggested sounds good.


I realized I did have one suggestion:

Read Saint Athanasius, "On The Incarnation" with C.S. Lewis' introduction. My first reading of this is still having fruit some 2 years after I came across it.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm

Don't mind the fact that it's on a Calvinist website.

[Michael Stickles]

I realized I did have one suggestion:

Read Saint Athanasius, "On The Incarnation" with C.S. Lewis' introduction. My first reading of this is still having fruit some 2 years after I came across it.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm

Don't mind the fact that it's on a Calvinist website.

I'll second that suggestion. Lewis' introduction is great by itself (I have a snippet of it posted on my Great Books site), and On The Incarnation is an excellent introduction to the Orthodox view of salvation. It figured prominently in my own conversion.

Another suggestion would be the Didache (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html). St. Athanasius describes it as "appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of goodness" - sounds like a good endorsement to me.

If you start with sermons and homilies, my suggestion would be St. John Chrysostom's homilies (http://www.grtbooks.com/chrysostom.asp?idx=0&yr=347&aa=CH&at=AA&opt=1#sermons) . Sermons covering 16 New Testament books and various other topics are available online (the linked page mentions how many sermons he has on each book).

In Christ,
Michael

[Anna Stickles]

Wow, Keith you opened a can of worms asking for reading suggestions on this site!!

I remember the first time I went in to talk to my local priest he said, "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time."

Obviously, this thread shows up the problem with asking for suggestions in a general forum where you are likely to get suggestions from many different people.

There is so much that advice from someone familiar with what is out there and who is used to helping potential converts is probably a good idea. The moderators here are a wonderful resource, and don't mind being bothered. (That's what they are here for) or you can talk to your local parish priest. Otherwise it's easy to get buried under the huge mass of material.

I have to add my vote, though, a while back we did a reading group (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3942&highlight=innocent+alaska)on
St Innocent of Alaska, The Way Into the Kingdom of Heaven (http://www.monachos.net/library/Innocent_of_Alaska%2C_The_Way_Into_the_Kingdom_of_ Heaven) and it was very nice as an introduction to the Orthodox mindset.

[Owen Jones]

c'mon, what's the problem? So he gets different advice. I'm sorry, but this idea that everyone has to wait for a priest to tell him what to do in order to prevent any mistakes, or how to think is just too much. Let the poor boy go his own way. Oh, and another bit of advice: the best instruction in Orthodoxy is the liturgy. Find an English speaking parish, OCA or Antiochian, and just go to some services, but especially matins and vespers. Hopefully where it is done beautifully. Not that the Greeks are not hospitable, but most of their services are in Greek, and done poorly. If you find a monastery, they often do this kind of chant where they are reading off texts at 90 miles an hour that just sounds ridiculous, but just remember, they have to get through a lot of stuff. But if there is a monastery nearby, check it out. Be sure to mention you are not Orthodox, just to avoid any confusion about communion.

Oh, and make sure you work through the Ladder of Divine Ascent over the next year with a monk/guide. Just kidding...

[Owen Jones]

Just realized you are in the U.K.

Here is a list of English-speaking parishes:

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/directory_2007.pdf

There is a Fr. Hallam who is a great guy and priest of a convert parish. But I forget where he is exactly.

[Ryan]

I hope we didn't scare him away!

I assumed, since Keith still lists himself as Protestant, that he wasn't currently in contact with a spiritual father, so I thought Lives of Saints (or sermons) would be the "safe" way to go. But don't agonize about it, just pick what interests you and try it out.

[Vasiliki D.]

VV--Most Protestant enquirers don't have spiritual fathers.

I didnt realise he was from another Christian faith. Well, in that case ALL the books our friends recommend are amazing.

I recommend that you listen to Father Thomas Hopko podcasts for Lent! He articulates very well the approach to Lent, why we do it .. what we can do for lent etc etc .. AND he also discusses what books to read for Lent!

[Owen Jones]

Play it safe? I think he should go to Athos! Right now!

[Paul Cowan]

Play it safe? I think he should go to Athos! Right now!

Hot dog, That's one invitation I'll take you up on right now. I'll meet you in Frankfurt, we can catch a connecting flight by morning and be on the Mountain by tomorrow night. Gotta go bye.

[Nina]

Another suggestion would be the Didache (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html). St. Athanasius describes it as "appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of goodness" - sounds like a good endorsement to me.


In Christ,
Michael

Yes I have heard the same about Didache. Also what all say about St. Chrysostom is true. He is a total treasury!

I also like this very much from St. John of Damascus:

http://www.orthodox.net/fathers/exactidx.html

[Michael Stickles]

I remember the first time I went in to talk to my local priest he said, "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time."

And, of course, in reading the Fathers the most important thing is not which bite you start with, but that you actually take some bites (don't forget to "chew" each one!).

When I asked our priest about reading material, he left it wide open to me, with the exception of one book he doesn't want me to read. And to keep me from being tempted, he won't tell me what it is...

Michael

[Andreas Moran]

The main thing is not to be like me - I buy a book, pick out bits of it and then think I've read it and know more than I did.

[Keith Cheesman]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think my choice of options has been narrowed ever so slightly ;)

[Andrew D. Morrell]

Ok, so I've read the Bible, and I've read some modern "introductions" to Orthodoxy. What would you guys recommend as a good start to reading some of the Fathers?

Hello Keith,

All the suggestions here have been wonderful. Mine are from my humble perspective. I was a men's ministry teacher and contemporary music leader in a non-denom evangelical church for years... when I was trying to wrap my heart around Orthodoxy, a book about Father Arseny and the writings of Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh (Anthony Bloom) had a tremendous impact on me. If you are interested, I can get more specific.

In Christ,
Andrew

[Rick H.]

Hello Keith,

If you are interested, I can get more specific.




Andrew--I'm interested (especially in those of Bishop Anthony ).

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

Greetings to everyone in this first week of the Fast.

Just a note on propriety: unless there is another individual by the same name of whom I am unaware, the proper title for the individual being referred to is Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh, as he was a metropolitan bishop of the Church. So: 'Metropolitan Anthony', 'Bishop Anthony' - but not simply 'Anthony Bloom'.

INXC, Fr Dcn Matthew

[Andrew D. Morrell]

Andrew--I'm interested (especially in those of Bishop Anthony ).

Hi Rick,

I first read Metropolitan Anthony when I bought a few Conciliar Press booklets at an Orthodox bookstore. His was on prayer. His way - his choice of words - of expressing his thoughts on prayer captured me. (I couldn't find any here in the house, I'm always handing them out. I'll ask my wife to get a few at church and I'll send one off to you if you send me your address.)

Then, I looked him up online, read everything I found (far too fast to truly absorb everything)... then got a few of his books, including: “Beginning to Pray”, “Living Prayer” and "God and Man". He has a tremendous body of work available.

I still read something of his at least weekly. There is a site that hosts some of his 'sermons and talks' (http://www.mitras.ru/eng/eng_serm.htm) presently set as my homepage.

The other book that I mentioned in my previous post is "Father Arseny, 1893-1973: Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father". Incredible, stirring, heart breaking, inspiring.

The above books helped changed the dynamic of my thinking and of my prayer life... for example, whenever I'd lapse into my intensely evangelistic character, I'd think of Father Arseny.

I'm about to begin reading the second collection, "Father Arseny: A Cloud Of Witnesses". Well... after I finish studying through "the Mind of the Orthodox Church" by Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos.

We contemporary Christians are very blessed to have access to all these sound resources... but at times, I spend far too much time with the resources and far too little time in prayer. Please pray for me regarding that, my dear brother.

In Christ's love,
Andrew

[Father David Moser]

but at times, I spend far too much time with the resources and far too little time in prayer.

I do not think that the problem (if there is one here) is in how much time one spends reading but rather in how one reads. St Isaac the Syrian considered reading a spiritual pursuit and to be a form of prayer. The topic is discussed in some depth in Bishop Hilaron (Alfeyev)'s book The Spiritual World of St Isaac the Syrian (pp174-184). He quotes St Isaac, in part, saying:


We should consider the labor of reading to be something extremely elevated; its importance cannot e exaggerated. For it serves as teh gate by which the intellect enters into the divine mysteries and it takes strength for attaining luminosity in prayer: it bathes with enjoyment as it wanders over the acts of God's dispensation which have taken place for the benefit of humanity ... From these acts prayer is illumined and strengthened...


Read often and insatiably the boods of he teachers of the Church on divine providence ... Read also the two Testaments, which gd ordained for he knowledge of the whole world ... And when you stnad up to pray ... instead fo thinking what you have seen ad heard in the world, you will find yourself pondering the divine Scriptures you have read ...

So it is not how much you read, but what you read and how you read.

Fr David Moser

[Owen Jones]

Thanks, Father, for an excellent point. And I suppose one could take it a step further by saying: make one's life a prayer. How I greet and treat other people, both in my mind and outwardly, etc...Mostly I just dislike other people, although for me that's progress! (believe me!)

[Owen Jones]

Here are some of St. John Chrysostom's sermons on line:

http://www.searchgodsword.org/his/ad/ecf/nic/

[Kseniya M.]

Thanks, Father, for an excellent point. And I suppose one could take it a step further by saying: make one's life a prayer. How I greet and treat other people, both in my mind and outwardly, etc...Mostly I just dislike other people, although for me that's progress! (believe me!)

AFR posted a podcast this morning by Steve Robinson that touched on just this point: paying attention to everything we do. He mentioned reading about a monk who said it took him a year just to learn how to close a door properly. And that's just closing a door. How much more is it to pay attention, make one's life a prayer, doing every little thing in and for Christ. It's a staggering concept.

Podcast can be found here: http://audio.ancientfaith.com/stevethebuilder/stb_2009-3-6.mp3

Kseniya

[Owen Jones]

I used to be the world champion door slammer!

[Andrew D. Morrell]

So it is not how much you read, but what you read and how you read.

Fr David Moser

Father bless!

Thank you for that citation. It is an insightful and helpful perspective.

In Christ,
Andrew

[Nina]

I'm about to begin reading the second collection, "Father Arseny: A Cloud Of Witnesses".
In Christ's love,
Andrew

I (and different priests) have been suggesting several books to my husband who is not an Orthodox. He stops reading them after a couple of pages. Once at a monastery in PA he found the book Andrew mentions and started reading it and he told me that he likes the book very much and would like to read it. Wow. So God "suggested" this book and he liked it :) I bought the book as a Christmas present to him and he is still reading it (he is super busy and does not have as much time).

Also I would add that I agree with what Father David suggested to you. The same I have read from Elder Cleopa regarding prayer. He said that prayer which are short and said from the heart and with sigh and contrition are very powerful. Long prayers are very powerful too but those are for those who are spiritually lofty. Therefore time spent has not much impact as what is in the heart has.