Is God aware of our future sins?

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear all,

I'm wondering the foll0wing:

(a) Is God aware of the sins we will commit in the future?
(b) Is He aware of whether or not we will ultimately be saved?

I realise that, according to Orthodox teaching, man has free will and is always responsible for his choices. But what I'm wondering is, since God is omniscient, can our sins surprise Him (or our good works, for that matter)? Or is it more like I imagine it to be, that from our creation He is fully aware of the choices we will make, but out of respect for our freedom He does not intervene to change them, except inasmuch as He is always knocking politely at the door of our hearts? But even so, if He knows whether we will answer the door or not, why does He keep knocking if He knows we won't, and again why knock if He knows the door will open to Him?

In Christ
Byron

[Vasiliki D.]

Dear all,

if He knows whether we will answer the door or not, why does He keep knocking if He knows we won't, and again why knock if He knows the door will open to Him?

In Christ
Byron

It is a very simple answer ... for the sake of equality.

When the dreaded Judgement day comes and everyone sees that it was real and starts saying .."BUT" - Christ will say ... I helped you but you ignored me.

THe Holy Trinity gives everyone equal opportunities so none of us can turn around and blame him for not.

Take the example of Cain ... God knew that Cain had murdered but he gave Cain a series of questions to give Cain the opportunity to repent .... so many examples where God gives us a nudge so that we can repent or say thanks but we dont take it ...

[Father David Moser]

I think that its kind of like my "moderation philosophy" on Monachos. I see a post in the moderation queue and I know that it is dead wrong and that the person who submitted it should have thought a little more or worked a little harder at it. As a moderator I have the ability to stop that post from going through and saving the poster some humiliation and even to provide a little private feedback. But, unless the post violates community standards, I will generally let it through since everyone has the right to make a fool out of themselves once in a while.

God's omniscience works in a similar manner. He knows I will sin, He knows whether or not I will respond to His call; however, His love for me is so great and so profound that He will keep on calling despite that so that I have every opportunity to respond, every opportunity to repent, every opportunity to turn to Him. He gives me the "right" to be wrong and will not interfere with my own foolishness - but neither will He allow my foolishness to turn Him away from His love for me.

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

Romans 8:29-30 occurs to me.

[Kusanagi]

Dear all,

I'm wondering the foll0wing:

(a) Is God aware of the sins we will commit in the future?
(b) Is He aware of whether or not we will ultimately be saved?


There are a few examples where some saints or pious people die young and it was later revealed to others from God that the reason such a person died young was because to prevent them from becoming evil.

Also about whether someone is saved or not i think there is an example of this in the life of St Seraphim of Sarov concerning the nuns he takes care of it was revealed in a dream by the Mother of God to St Seraphim that 2 of the nuns he looks after will not be saved.

[Evan]

I think the most pressing question here is, if He foreknows, does His foreknowledge constrain us? I think Andreas has pointed us towards the answer-- He calls us to conform, for the sake of His glory and our salvation. But if we say that we cannot help either conforming, or failing to conform, we deny His gift of radical freedom. Were we not created sufficient to stand, but free to fall?

God forgive me if I am wrong.

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear all,

From the replies I've received so far (with thanks to those who posted), Ive understood why God might keep knocking at the door of our hearts even if He knows that - presently - we are going to sin and not answer to Him. This would make sense if He is aware that at some point we are going to make the right choice after all, and He's just trying to encourage us to do so sooner, rather than later.

But if He knows we are never going to listen, or that like the seeds which fell on hard ground or were strangled by weeds, our efforts will ultimately prove fruitless, then isn't it almost cruel to keep knocking? What I'm having difficulty understanding is that which Andreas pointed to, using Rom 8:29-30. If God knows even before he creates someone, whether they will be saved or lost - then why create the lost ones? OK, create ones who will experience struggle and difficulty and who must make the right choices to win their way through, but give them at least a fighting chance! What's the point of creating hard soil that isn't going to bear fruit no matter how many seeds one casts on it? Isn't it cruel to let these damned souls live their lives, in the knowledge that despite all His summons, perhaps even despite some of their own attempts to respond, they will eventually fail and perish? This apparent cruelty is reflected for me in the example Kusanagi gives:
it was revealed in a dream by the Mother of God to St Seraphim that 2 of the nuns he looks after will not be saved.

These are nuns! They may be sinners, but even so they must be making some efforts, even if only with lips and filled with pride. It's not like they're living a life of parties and booze! If even they are going to perish, what's the point of non-monastic city-dwelling sinners even trying? I'm sure I don't have the whole picture here, but I'm just trying to understand.

In Christ
Byron

[Kseniya M.]

But if He knows we are never going to listen, or that like the seeds which fell on hard ground or were strangled by weeds, our efforts will ultimately prove fruitless, then isn't it almost cruel to keep knocking? What I'm having difficulty understanding is that which Andreas pointed to, using Rom 8:29-30. If God knows even before he creates someone, whether they will be saved or lost - then why create the lost ones? OK, create ones who will experience struggle and difficulty and who must make the right choices to win their way through, but give them at least a fighting chance! What's the point of creating hard soil that isn't going to bear fruit no matter how many seeds one casts on it? Isn't it cruel to let these damned souls live their lives, in the knowledge that despite all His summons, perhaps even despite some of their own attempts to respond, they will eventually fail and perish? This apparent cruelty is reflected for me in the example Kusanagi gives:

These are nuns! They may be sinners, but even so they must be making some efforts, even if only with lips and filled with pride. It's not like they're living a life of parties and booze! If even they are going to perish, what's the point of non-monastic city-dwelling sinners even trying? I'm sure I don't have the whole picture here, but I'm just trying to understand.

I used to ask questions like these. My husband, aggravatingly for me at the time, used to gently reply in return, It's a mystery, but if God makes us so that we can only choose salvation, then we really don't have free will. We have to be completely free to choose salvation, or damnation; otherwise, the choice to choose God means nothing at all.

He has to make us so that we can choose to reject Him, and it is our own free choice if we do. He has to keep knocking at our hearts, because if He doesn't, then we could stand before Him and say, I might have converted if You'd kept knocking, but You didn't. He has to give us every chance to be saved, so that we stand without excuse if we reject His love. We do have a fighting chance. Those who reject God do so freely.

You know -- we don't know who's going to perdition. We don't know that it will be people who claim to be atheists. We certainly don't know that it will be people who live lives filled with pain and get mad at God for it. We can't look at any given person and say, That person doesn't believe in God and sins horribly and is going to hell, or hear about someone who died and say, He's probably in hell because he said he didn't believe in God (did you know that Jeffrey Dahmer was baptized while he was on death row?). It's beyond impertinence to say such things. We have no clue at all what goes on in another person's heart, unless we are one of the few holy ones to whom is given the gift of reading hearts.

Comparing nuns with city-dwelling sinners is not a good example, because it's never a good idea to judge at all, much less by appearances. Remember our Savior railing at the Pharisees for being white-washed tombs? We can do the right things for the wrong reasons.

But us city-dwelling sinners, if we repent every time we sin, if we get up and confess every time we fall, if we try to do what we do for love of God, if we try to serve our neighbor, if we forgive and pray for our enemies, then yes, we may well have a better chance than a nun who seems to be living a virtuous life. God doesn't expect what we can't do. He just wants us to do what we can do, for love of Him. (Easy to say -- hard to do!)

There's a Scripture where Jesus talks about people at the Last Judgment saying, Did we not perform miracles in your name? Cast our devils in your name? and so on, and He says, I never knew you. Perhaps because, they didn't do this FOR Him or love of neighbor. They did it for themselves.

I hope this helps a little. I can see that you're in a place I used to be in, and you're asking questions I used to ask. The answers didn't satisfy me then, but I'm hoping some of this helps you now.

-Kseniya

[Herman Blaydoe]

Does God have to submit to chronos like we do?

What does "before" and "after" mean in a pre-eternal "now"?

What, exactly, is "cruelty"? Mercy for the wolf is cruelty for the sheep. Or to put it another way:

An atheist was walking through the woods. He said to himself, "What majestic trees"! "What powerful rivers"! "What beautiful animals"!

As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly charge towards him. He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder & saw that the bear was closing in on him.

He looked over his shoulder again, & the bear was even closer. He tripped & fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw that the bear was right On top of him, reaching for him with his left paw & raising his right paw to strike him. At that instant the Atheist cried out, "Oh my God!"

Time Stopped.
The bear froze.
The forest was still.

As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky. "You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist and even credit creation to cosmic accident." "Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer"?

The atheist looked directly into the light, "It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask You to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps You could make the BEAR a Christian"?

"Very Well," said the Voice.

The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. And the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke:

"Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen."

I don't know but, as far as THIS particular bear (of little brain) understands it, God did not choose to create automatons "predestined" for anything, and He chooses not to act without our consent at some level. He who is all-powerful chooses to give the final say in this matter to His creation who are not. Such is the deep mystery of ultimate humility. Answer that and I think an answer to the original question suggests itself.

Herman the Pooh

[Matthew Namee]

I think this question misunderstands God's relation to time. I mean, God is not sitting here "today" and knowing (foreseeing, like a clairvoyant) what I am going to do tomorrow. He is here now, and he is there tomorrow as if it is now. When we say that the Holy Spirit is "everywhere present," I think that means not only "everywhere geographically" but also "everywhere temporally." We cannot say that God "was" or "will be"; he simply "is."

How to put this... When we say that God knows what we "are going to do," the future context of that statement is only future for us. Likewise the past: when Jesus explained that he existed before Abraham, he did not say, "Before Abraham was, I was," but rather, "Before Abraham was, I am." And so in the Divine Liturgy we say that he is in the grave, in Hades, in Paradise, and on the throne, all at once.

So to answer the question posed by this thread, "Does God know our future sins?" I would say this: From our point of view, yes, God knows everything -- past, present, and future. But from God's point of view (which I think is what this question was really getting at), the answer is no, since for God there is no future.

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear all,

Thank you very much for your responses, particularly Matthew Namee's response, which I found most helpful personally. I actually had something in mind about this issue of God's own relationship to time when I posted the question. Herman also pointed to this issue, but I found the 'Christian bear' story more compelling in his post. Herman, this exciting but rather cruel (sorry, here I am using that word again!) tale, doesn't sound really Christian. Is it just a joke, or does it in fact originate from the mouth of a saint? What it suggests to me indirectly, is that there may yet be other aspects to Pooh the bear, which are being revealed here! Piglet is very frightened! But at least the ending is realistic...

Dear Ksenia, everything you've written is good and useful and I thank you for it, but - there's always a 'but' - if you are further ahead from me on the spiritual path (not an unlikely possibility), having now overcome such questions in your life, then I would have assumed you would know how those who like myself are still prone to pride, don't like being reminded that
I can see that you're in a place I used to be in, and you're asking questions I used to ask. For someone in my sorry condition, the words "I'm with you on this one, brother", or something along such lines, would have been more effective. But this is a small and rather petty matter, hardly worth pointing out (but I couldn't resist it - believe me, if there's any truth in this at all, then you wouldn't be the only one who talks of problems they identify with as being something 'which used to upset them in the past'); the essence of what you're trying to say is helpful, and that's what seems most important to me. It has been accepted with gratitude.

Yes, all of what has been written so far sounds quite true, but alas I don't feel that the conundrum - a very real one for me currently - of why God creates some, to put it crudely, who will turn out to be 'duds', together with those 'live' souls who will gain salvation, has been solved. If it is all entirely up to us right to the last minute of our earthly existence, then I find myself returning to the original question: if right to the end of our earthly existence, with the very last breath we have, we 'freely' choose to deny God - did God then know about this choice we would make all along, while He was coming up with the idea of us as a person? Did He say to Himself "Mmmhhmm...I think I will make one now who will ultimately reject me and be cast into hell, but even so I'll keep knocking at the door of his heart until his dying day, just so he can't turn around afterwards and say to me: "Thou didst not warn me"?". In other words, how 'free' are we really? (Please don't get me wrong, I'm trying to understand this through discussion, not to excuse sinful behaviour which we know is wrong).

Please don't tell me that I'm being anthropomorphic, trying to fit God into human categories, ignoring the reality of the mystery inherent in our relation to God, ignoring things as seen and understood from God's point of view etc. - because you'd be completely correct. And I would be no further along in my understanding or appreciation of this complex issue. I know that my thoughts are to God's thoughts much less than the musings of a chicken are to the creative potential of the human mind. Neverthless, I need to find a way to understand this issue in chicken talk (I know it can't be done; please give it another try, who knows this chicken may be convinced on the second round, so I can return to my shack).

In Christ
Byron

In Christ
Byron

[Herman Blaydoe]

(a) Is God aware of the sins we will commit in the future?
(b) Is He aware of whether or not we will ultimately be saved?

a) yes
b) yes

God exists in and out of time. God is bigger than time. God created time. God is pre-"pre" and He is post-"post". God knew (knows) what we were (are) going to do, and what was (is) going to happen "before" it happened (happens). He knows who will be saved and who won't be. That doesn't mean He "predetermines" it, He simply knows. There is no before, there is no after, in the eternal NOW.

Internal: that which is inside
External: that which is outside
Eternal: that which encompasses both the inside and outside and beyond

Herman the not-a-tame Pooh

[Andreas Moran]

And 'the everlasting'?

[Herman Blaydoe]

Free will is an awe-full thing. God created us knowing that some of us would reject Him. I don't pretend to know why He did this beyond the belief that He evidently did not want to create pre-programmed robots. God created us to choose, to make our own choice, not to make His choice. If He made the choice for us then it would not be our choice, would it? If He chose to save everyone, He would ultimately have to deny the will of those who do not want to be saved.

You seem to be laboring under the conception that everybody wants to be saved. This is not so, if the words of our Lord in third chapter of the Gospel of the Apostle John are to be believed (John 3:19-20).

Herman the free-range Pooh

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

God made each of us with free choice. This is what is determinative in this question, not what God foresees.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Matthew Namee]

If it is all entirely up to us right to the last minute of our earthly existence, then I find myself returning to the original question: if right to the end of our earthly existence, with the very last breath we have, we 'freely' choose to deny God - did God then know about this choice we would make all along, while He was coming up with the idea of us as a person? Did He say to Himself "Mmmhhmm...I think I will make one now who will ultimately reject me and be cast into hell, but even so I'll keep knocking at the door of his heart until his dying day, just so he can't turn around afterwards and say to me: "Thou didst not warn me"?". In other words, how 'free' are we really?
Brian,

The problem with what you are saying is that you are still applying categories of past and future to God. You have God at some point along a timeline, looking into the future and "foreknowing" someone's fate. But that is not how God relates to us. Even now, he is creating the universe, dying on the Cross, rising from the dead, coming a second time in glory, judging the world, and reigning in the eternal last day. God has no past and no future; those categories only exist for us. So yes, for us, God created at some point in the past; he died and rose at some point in the past; he returns and judges at some point in the future. But all of these things, for him, are neither past nor future, but present.

So God did not create us and (fore)know our fate. At once, he creates us and is literally present at our last breath (and thus knows our fate as one who sees it in the present). What for us is past and future, for God is all present. I could die tomorrow or in 50 years. He is already there.

[Andreas Moran]

God made each of us with free choice.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

The trouble is that one can make the choice but then be unable to uphold it.

[Herman Blaydoe]

The trouble is that one can make the choice but then be unable to uphold it.

If it is truely our choice, then God gives to us the ability to uphold it, is my understanding of the teaching of the Church.

I can say "I choose this" but do I really mean it? God knows, "... Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand" (Romans 14:4)

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Andreas Moran]

Perhaps the initial choice has to be accompanied by the further choice to repent (and really mean it).

[Paul Cowan]

Neverthless, I need to find a way to understand this issue in chicken talk (I know it can't be done; please give it another try, who knows this chicken may be convinced on the second round, so I can return to my shack).

In Christ
Byron

Byron, Try this on for size. Take a length of string, put marks on it and hold it horizontally. This represents the time line. Each point on the line is a point of time, past, present and/or future. God is everwhere on this time line as we only are a part of it. Now take that same string and hold it vertically. All points in time are now the same point in time as God is in all places at once. This view takes away our conception of "time" and replaces it with God's perception of non-time or eternity which has no time. SInce all points are now one point, OUR perception of time is muted.

Can you roost now? I mean rest now?
Paul

[Kseniya M.]

Let me turn the question around 90 degrees.

Just exactly what is it about this that is so troubling to you personally?

I'm sorry that I can't explain better my own journey past this, though I honestly can't comprehend why it would hurt your pride. I've asked the same questions you're asking, but I can't say for sure if I asked them for the same reasons (since I obviously don't know anything about you). For me, my trouble with the question was because I was victimized as a child, and my anger was caused by not being able to accept that God created people who would torment and abuse me. It took me a long time to see that God didn't torment and abuse me; human beings did. The only way past it was to forgive my abusers. When I forgave my abusers, the mystery of why God creates people who choose to reject Him faded in importance.

Actually, I don't even know if my abusers have/will reject God before the fearsome Judgment Seat. They may have done terrible things, but who knows how wounded they were by the previous generation? How much real control they had over their passions and the actions and their reactions? I can only pray that they not be condemned on my account.

Just as an aside, try to picture a world in which there isn't anyone who would reject God. I hate to be flip, but a little voice in my head just said, "Booooooring." Seriously. Automatons, as Herman pointed out. Nobody would run the race with fear and trembling. We might sin, and sin terribly even, but it just all seems so flat, knowing how it will all turn out. We could do anything we want, knowing ourselves assured of salvation. No reason to be especially good. No surprises on the Last Day. Blah. Not the world I'd like to live in.

-Kseniya

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear all,

Kseniya, please accept my apologies for my initial comment on your spiritual path, which is not mine to judge. Thank you also for sharing your difficult childhood experiences, and your journey in overcoming these. On your latter point, I see what you mean, but I don't know if I would find a world where none reject God a boring place. I say give me heaven now, and we'll discuss whether it's boring later! Nevertheless, I appreciate that God in his wisdom will not give us (well, me) heaven right now, and that accepting one's fate gracefully is one of the entrance requirements.

Paul, your string example is superb. This chicken's come home to roost!

God's creation is frustrating to its creatures, because we know we are not God, and cannot understand why He would make us less perfect than He is. What appears to carnal eyes to be a wasteful process (creating souls who are predestined to hell), the Fathers describe as divine economy. What seems an act of cruelty is one of love, a love which respects freedom; and maybe this freedom is such, that even God will change His mind if we show willing! I don't know, but I am trying to accept this crazy love.

In Christ
Byron

[Herman Blaydoe]

(creating souls who are predestined to hell)

That is Calvinism, not Orthodoxy. Calvin was wrong, God does not create this person for Heaven, that person for hell. God creates both people, yes, but they ultimately decide where they end up. Knowing something is going to happen is not the same as making it happen. God is not a puppet master AFAIK.

Are you are saying that since God knew this person was not going to accept Him, He should simply not allow that person to exist?

Herman the consternated Pooh

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Herman,


Are you are saying that since God knew this person was not going to accept Him, He should simply not allow that person to exist? No. However, even looking at it through this apparently crystal-clear perspective, the question still arises: what is 'this person', where does it come from, how does it arise in the scheme of God's good creation? How does this novel being emerge from the mind of an all-good God, distilled in the alembic in which persons are created, as a being which paradoxically refuses to praise its Creator? What is this freedom, that it should have the power to reject God? A power greater than God? A power which precedes Him in some way? I think someone in an older thread once asked something along the lines, 'can God create something which is greater than Himself?'. If we have the power to reject Him, then we are in that much, "greater" than Him. Yet we are His creation; how can that be? Of course, the answer is right there on the cross: a God who suffers, who sacrifices Himself for our freedom. To me, this love seems 'crazy', but in my own limited human way I can nonetheless understand that love and sacrifice go together. But I still can't understand how power X, which is less than power Y, can give rise to power Y, which is able to reject power X. You will suggest that we may be able to reject God, but we are unable (of course) to destroy Him, therefore our power is not greater. Yet the rejection of God is in a metaphorical sense a 'destruction' of Him. And I still wonder what kind of 'sovereignty' we have, if that sovereignty is merely the power to consent or refuse, and is a privilege bestowed on us by a being who is in every other respect in charge of everything else. If the divine will is immutable, then all we can do is concede or refuse - what kind of freedom is that?

I know something is wrong in my thinking here (call it Calvinism if you like). I seem to have persuaded myself that humans are both more powerful and helplessly more feeble than God! What I can't seem to grasp is how one can have a good relationship 'on an equal footing' with Him, so to speak...

Any ideas, Pooh?! Others?

In Christ
Byron

[Herman Blaydoe]

He who spoke creation into being allows His creation to have the final say.

He who is all-powerful bows to the decision of those who are not powerful.

He who is Supreme is also supremely humble.

To be like God is not thunder and lightning and demanding sacrifice and praise. It is to serve and expect nothing in return.

Remember that His strength is perfected in weakness. It is indeed an awesome mystery. And yes, I do believe it really is that simple.

Herman the simple Pooh

[Evan]

"I still can't understand how power X, which is less than power Y, can give rise to power Y, which is able to reject power X. "


Call this the mother and father of all cop outs if you will, but I don't think we can ever hope to understand how God can preserve our radical freedom to choose salvation or damnation while at the same time foreknowing whether we will stand or fall. We only know that that's what's been revealed to us. Our God is not the god of the philosophers-- He is not bound by rationalistic constructs. He is not completely and utterly comprehensible. It is perhaps for this reason that we are instructed by St. Paul not to seek to be wise beyond measure. That is not to say we should not study Scripture and the writings of the Fathers, and seek to learn as much as we can, but that we should be aware that there are things we simply will not know until that day.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above." John 19:11

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear all,

Herman, that's a really good quote from St John. Between your own responses and Evans', I feel I have my answer, and it's not an answer really, but a mystery. I don't have a problem with mystery, and I'm not one of those who demand a rational explanation for everything. I'm also quite sure that, just because something doesn't make sense to me, this doesn't mean that 'it makes no sense' in absolute terms. I just wish, as a creature, I had a better understanding of my own place in creation, but God no doubt provides what knowledge He deems best at this time.

This brings me, however, to another 'quandary': if a man asks you to sign a contract, but is unwilling to explain every term and condition in that contract, why should you sign it?

In Christ
Byron

[Herman Blaydoe]

Dear all,

This brings me, however, to another 'quandary': if a man asks you to sign a contract, but is unwilling to explain every term and condition in that contract, why should you sign it?

In Christ
Byron

Contracts are for people without trust. There is no love in a contract. A covenant is a different thing altogether. God doesn't do contracts.

Herman the Pooh

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Contracts are for people without trust. There is no love in a contract. A covenant is a different thing altogether. God doesn't do contracts. Herman, your answer is spot-on.

I also have the following thoughts about sin and time: God’s memory is eternal, because He has simultaneous awareness of past, present and future. Being remembered by God is equivalent to being saved (‘remember me, O Lord, in Thy Kingdom’), whereas the sleep and oblivion of sin, as Luke 13:27 suggests, places a person outside the will of God and therefore outside His memory. In this sense, God does not know and does not remember sin, nor those who commit it. So in a sense, participation in God means really existing or living, whereas participation in evil means taking ourselves out of existence, into unreality or death. This may be compatible with the idea of a good God who in full awareness creates someone whom He knows will be unable to participate in Him.

What do you think?

In Christ
Byron

[Kseniya M.]

This may be compatible with the idea of a good God who in full awareness creates someone whom He knows will be unable to participate in Him.

Not "unable." "Unwilling." God creates each of us, every one of us, for communion with Him. We can choose to reject that, but we are no less capable of it.

Or, from another viewpoint, none of us are capable of union with God; it is He who grows this capacity in us, if we are faithful to Him, if we respond to His grace and love.

-Kseniya

[Andreas Moran]

Contracts are for people without trust. There is no love in a contract. A covenant is a different thing altogether. God doesn't do contracts.

Herman the Pooh

Quite right. Even legally, a covenant is a promise which is binding without consideration.

[Evan]

Quite right. Even legally, a covenant is a promise which is binding without consideration.

Just wanted to say that as a law student who is now, at this very moment, studying the requirement of consideration in his contracts course, I very much enjoyed this. Our (Jewish) professor actually gave the example of God's covenant with Abraham as a promise lacking consideration, being without benefit to the promisor or detriment to the promisee.

[Tanya Hoadley]

How does one who has a linear perspective (man) begin to understand how God works in time as He is the creator of time itself?

A mystery indeed!

I had a neighbor who was the mother of 2 small boys. A fire began in the house, from the investigation it was believed that she saved the youngest, an infant, by tossing him out of a window and they believed the eldest, a 3 year old, ran from fear and that the mother had to go farther into the house after him. The mother was found in the bathtub, her body enclosing her son's. Though she probably knew that she couldn't save her son, she still gave her life for him. Love overcame her knowing what was going to happen in the future.

Tanya

[Andreas Moran]

Evan Originally Posted by Andreas Moran
Quite right. Even legally, a covenant is a promise which is binding without consideration.

Just wanted to say that as a law student who is now, at this very moment, studying the requirement of consideration in his contracts course, I very much enjoyed this. Our (Jewish) professor actually gave the example of God's covenant with Abraham as a promise lacking consideration, being without benefit to the promisor or detriment to the promisee.
Today 05:31 PM

The covenant must be in a deed, though - but maybe stone tablets count as a deed, especially if executed by God!

[Evan]

The covenant must be in a deed, though - but maybe stone tablets count as a deed, especially if executed by God!


“And now God said to him, I am the Lord, who brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee possession of this land instead. And when he asked, Lord God, what assurance may I have that it is mine? The Lord answered, Bring me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old she-goat, and a three-year-old ram, and a turtle-dove, and a pigeon. All these he brought to him, and cut them in half, laying the two halves of each on opposite sides, except the dove and the pigeon; he did not divide these. ...So the sun went down, and when the darkness of night came on, a smoking furnace was seen, a torch of fire that passed between the pieces of flesh. And the Lord, that day, made a covenant with Abram.” (Genesis 15:7-10, 17-18)

The idea being, that the "torch of fire" was effectively a seal, or a formality, that stood in the place of a writing. Of course, our professor made clear that this would probably not be legally recognized today, seals and such being bygone common law devices only effective in a limited number of jurisdictions.

I was just amazed that he dared make reference to Scripture in what is perhaps the most secular law school environment in the country (that is, the University of Chicago, the house that law and economics built).

[Byron Jack Gaist]

I had a neighbor who was the mother of 2 small boys. A fire began in the house, from the investigation it was believed that she saved the youngest, an infant, by tossing him out of a window and they believed the eldest, a 3 year old, ran from fear and that the mother had to go farther into the house after him. The mother was found in the bathtub, her body enclosing her son's. Though she probably knew that she couldn't save her son, she still gave her life for him. Love overcame her knowing what was going to happen in the future. Tanya, this is a moving (and horrific) story. Can you say how you see it in relation to God's operation in time? Are you saying God dies for us even though he knows we will choose death? My question is - doesn't this seem a rather wasteful process? If the mother had known about the fire happening in the first place (as God surely knows about our future sins), would she not have saved both herself and her children by leaving the house or telling the fire brigade in time?


Not "unable." "Unwilling." God creates each of us, every one of us, for communion with Him. We can choose to reject that, but we are no less capable of it. Kseniya, that was the whole point of my initial question. If God is aware while creating us of our ultimate success or failure in meeting our calling to salvation, if our God-given character is our destiny (and yes, I know personality is also shaped by experience; I'm referring here to that mysterious aspect of character which 'causes' in some fated manner two people who have gone through similarly abusive or petrifying experiences, one to become Adolf Hitler, the other Oprah Winfrey) then in what way are we 'free to choose' in an ultimate sense? Please don't tell me we cooperate with God in shaping our destiny, or that Hitler made bad choices and Oprah (on the whole) good ones. I already know that, and we'd just be going round in circles. I've accepted this as a mystery beyond human reason, and I'm personally glad, or at least content, to leave it at that. If, on the other hand, you have some insight or information which has not yet entered the discussion, please do let me and others know (I'm not being sarcastic).

In Christ
Byron

[Kseniya M.]

I've accepted this as a mystery beyond human reason, and I'm personally glad, or at least content, to leave it at that. If, on the other hand, you have some insight or information which has not yet entered the discussion, please do let me and others know (I'm not being sarcastic).

Please forgive me for picking at your language in a prior post; it seemed to me that when you wrote "unable" rather than "unwilling," you were still displaying an underlying belief.

Perhaps this is the only way we can be saved since we broke the world, and ourselves, with our sin. Like a jigsaw puzzle, if you take out the ones that will ultimately reject God, you create holes in the picture. Maybe they need to be there for the salvation of the greatest number; perhaps it grieves God to create them, but He has to give us a real, free choice. And, it bears saying, the angels too were given this choice.

This is a very imperfect analogy, since seeing human beings as pieces of a jigsaw puzzle necessarily limits their freedom. Yet trying to imagine a world where nobody is capable of rejecting God is horrifying to me (not to mention just boring). If God only creates people who will glorify Him, then why create people at all? Little automatons running about the world, not needing to be especially good, never being especially bad, not capable of great good because they are not capable of great evil.

Maybe we can only see this by contrasts it creates. We must be capable of great evil in order to be capable of great good, just as we must be capable of great sadness in order to be capable of great joy. If there couldn't be a Hitler, perhaps there couldn't be a St. Gregory the Wonderworker. Perhaps if there couldn't be a Stalin, there couldn't be a St. Mary of Egypt. And, mentioning again the angels, perhaps if there couldn't have been a Lucifer, there couldn't have been a St. Michael.

So maybe it's not as wasteful as you might think at first. It's worth thinking about.

-Kseniya

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Actually Kseniya, this idea is one you hinted at earlier, but in this post you clarify it and offer a potent metaphor (the jigsaw puzzle) which really helps. Many thanks for this contribution.

Personally, I admire the faith you show in accepting the reality of evil. Is this attitude common to Russians? I once read it was. I shiver to think of men like Hitler and Stalin, and readily admit that I would consider the world a much improved place without them. And I don't feel their existence is necessary for me to appreciate the sanctity of Christ or His saints. An old acquaintance of mine used to argue with me that we need sadness in order to know joy, night in order to know day. I don't know. I just long for an eternal day, an eternal joy, and if that's boring, then please, bore me! Let the ones who seek excitement go and live together, and leave us boring souls to our peace!

I need to mull this over further. Obviously I realise that I have no place telling God how to make improvements on His world. But turning that around to say 'Glory to God for everything' (I notice you have that as a favourite quote on your member profile) is a step I'm not - yet - ready to take. Pray for me, that I may be able to reach such happiness sooner, rather than later.

In Christ
Byron

[Tanya Hoadley]

Tanya, this is a moving (and horrific) story. Can you say how you see it in relation to God's operation in time? Are you saying God dies for us even though he knows we will choose death? My question is - doesn't this seem a rather wasteful process? If the mother had known about the fire happening in the first place (as God surely knows about our future sins), would she not have saved both herself and her children by leaving the house or telling the fire brigade in time?

Dear Byron,

I guess what I'm saying is that love doesn't make much sense. If we apply logic and reason to it, it just doesn't hold up as something a rational being would embrace.

For example, if a man is without food and shelter and he courts the attentions of a person of means by praise, flattery and a display of affection, he may receive what he needs in return. This is not love. Logically it makes sense as the man is endeavoring to survive.

If the same person gives up his only coat to someone of means because he sees that at that moment that person is in need, then it isn't logical. The poor person cannot replace his coat and the person of means can surely buy one. The poor man doesn't expect anything in return except the increased comfort of his neighbor. This is love.

What manner of insanity is this! Has the poor man taken leave of his senses?

The answer is yes. He has left logic and reason behind for something infinitely better. For love.

God is love and I cannot comprehend Him with any amount of logic or reason.

That is not to say that we shouldn't persevere in gaining knowledge and understanding, but I think the logic of man is sorely deficient to aid us. (I'm sort of a space/time buff and the more I learn, the more I am confused. How much more confused I am when it comes to God and time!)

Great thread Byron, many things to ponder.

Tanya