How can I find Orthodoxy?

[Jennifer Anne S.]

Hello all!

I have looked at this community for a while and everyone here seems so considered and careful in their thought. I want to ask those who know best, you faithful Orthodox here on Monachos, how can I begin to learn about the Orthodox Church?

I am coming at this from a slightly different attitude than usual. I do not need to know everything about each belief, doctrine and dogma of the Church - I have plenty of that in the RCC, where I am now. I have nothing against the RCC of course, but I find myself tired from trying to understand every little thing in the traditional "western" way.

Rather than in-depth, exquisite detail of doctrine, which I am sure the Orthodox Church can provide (and which Rome does provide), I am looking for a way to sense whether or not it is safe to simply trust what the Orthodox Church teaches -- without having to know every little thing -- kind of like those "old Church ladies" you see at Liturgy every Sunday. They never argue and fight about theology. They do not engage in political disputes about bishops and priests. They seem so at peace to simply attend Liturgy. As Jesus said we should, they seem to have the "faith of a child".

So my question is more about how to question, if that makes any sense. If I can get and answer to the question of how to trust, I think all else will fall into place.

Where can I begin?

Sincerely seeking,

Jennifer Anne

[Ryan]

Welcome Jennifer.

I don't think anyone can be seriously expected to understand every nuance of doctrine. This is why we need the Church as a collective organism, because no single human being can have all the answers.

It seems to me that the most direct way to experience Orthodoxy is to absorb its atmosphere through the services. Attend several Orthodox services, in more than one parish if you can. The fullness of the Church's teaching can be imparted in a single hymn if someone is ready to receive it.

One can also see how the Church holistically transforms a human life by reading the lives of Saints or the sayings of great elders. Orthodoxy is borne out ultimately not in books but in living human beings.

[Kyrill Bolton]

You asked two questions: How do I learn and how do I (learn to) trust.

One learns, at least in one sense with the head. This is the current western view. This knowledge often appears as facts relating to each other by rational arguments. However, even a modest understanding of the teachings of the ancient Church teaches that one learns from God and of God with the heart. (For behold, Thou hast loved truth; the hidden and secret things of Thy wisdom hast Thou made manifest into me. Psalm 50).

Each person's path differs but an element common to every journey includes the harnessing or subjugating the rational to the soul. This results in the type of learning that you seek. The Church and it's expression in writing and oral teachings talk of this journey, gives guidance and encouragement.

If you seriously take the path the trust follows as a gift of grace.

[Tanya Hoadley]

Dear Jennifer,

May I suggest a book?

The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware, now Bishop Kallistos, is one of my favorites. I would recommend it as a good launch pad for inquiry into the Orthodox Faith.

I would also recommend attending Orthodox services. Reading is one thing and experiencing is another.

Hope this helps,

Tanya

[Kosta]

You have answered your own question when you said "like those old church ladies". One of the most pious christian i ever knew was my grandmother. She was completely illiterate, didnt even know how to sign her name or even hold a pencil .
Obviously this means she never opened a bible in her life, never read a newspaper, never debated philosopy. Yet she knew what the Orthodox christian life was all about and lead that life exemplary.
Even though she never read the gospels, she was able to listen to them by attending Liturgy. She didnt understand theology but learned some from looking and venerating the icons put out during the various feast days. The rest was passed down to her from generation to generation, as the spiritual practise of fasting and reciting prayers and the creed and a few hymns. From baking profora, to saying "EE Panagia kai o Xristos Mazi Sou" (May Jesus and his all-holy Mother be with you) every time someone left the house.

[Margaret S.]

From baking profora, to saying "EE Panagia kai o Xristos Mazi Sou" (May Jesus and his all-holy Mother be with you) every time someone left the house.

Kosta, that is so beautiful. Thinking that way, remembering to say those things, is the proof that someone's mind is always with God.

Regards
Margaret
in Edinburgh

[Olga]

May I also add to the comments of others: the illiterate (in the proper sense of the word) manes, yiayies, mami and babushki are, indeed, inspiration to us all. Those who have got to "know" me through this forum may find this statement somewhat strange: Orthodoxy is not simply an intellectual pursuit. It is something that is lived.

[Rick H.]

. . . the question of how to trust . . .





Dear Jennifer,

Your question really hits home with me--yes a tiring thing. And, this is not a short answer question.


However, as you wrote, "I am looking for a way to sense whether or not it is safe to simply trust what the Orthodox Church teaches." Regarding a place for you to begin, I would say to begin with a meditation on escapism. I wonder how many converts from other Christian faith traditions are making a move to Orthodoxy today primarily in rejection of their present circumstances, more than anything else, thinking along the lines of 'a fresh start' and 'greener grass' more so that anything else. Secondly, I would say, not unlike the Roman Catholic Church, as you have observed here as you have been looking at this community for awhile, don't be surprised when you find out that in the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church there are different views, different schools of thought, not every jot and tittle is agreed upon. So as you begin, do so with your eyes wide open so there is no disappointment from the expectation of greener grass in this way. Thirdly, after a look toward motives and expectations, then I would not recommend any book to you based on my experience and what you have shared above. I would say, simply come in to the liturgy of a church or churches and experience it--let go--without evaluation. As much as you possibly can participate without evaluating what is going initially. I remember a couple of years ago when another was on his journey to Orthodoxy, there was a thread here that brought the question to my mind:

Is it better to: a.) participate without evaluation or b.) evaluate without participation

This is meant to be a thought question and nothing more. Possibly, it will be of some help to you now. If not, it didn't cost you anything to read it.

In Christ,
Rick

[Herman Blaydoe]

So my question is more about how to question, if that makes any sense. If I can get and answer to the question of how to trust, I think all else will fall into place.

Where can I begin?

Sincerely seeking,

Jennifer Anne

If I may dare hazard a word here, you are not seeking a "belief" or a "church" or even answers. You are seeking God. Focus your gaze on our Lord Christ Jesus.

I am guessing that perhaps you do not meet God where you are now. Then you must seek Him out. Knock and the door will be opened. Seek and you will find. That is God's promise. However, He does not say that things will be simply handed to us, we must make an effort.

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
Matthew 11:12
Pray. Ask God directly. I am not saying to expect a direct answer however. God is often in the small, still, quiet voice and we have to be very quiet to hear Him.

If you can, get an Orthodox prayer book. Pray those prayers. See if they "fit". We pray as we believe and we believe as we pray. In our prayers are the teaching of the Church. In the prayers of the Church you will find many answers, you may even hear God speaking to you, but it may well be with your own voice. Perhaps this is why some emphasize speaking or singing the prayers aloud?

And if you don't know what else to pray, simply pray this: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

I recommend that you find an Orthodox Church and follow the advice of the Apostle Philip to Nathaniel; "come and see" (John 1:46).

Keep seeking. God loves and honors persistence (Luke 18:1-7).

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[D. W. Dickens]

I am looking for a way to sense whether or not it is safe to simply trust what the Orthodox Church teaches -- without having to know every little thing -- kind of like those "old Church ladies" you see at Liturgy every Sunday. They never argue and fight about theology. They do not engage in political disputes about bishops and priests. They seem so at peace to simply attend Liturgy. As Jesus said we should, they seem to have the "faith of a child".


Jennifer Anne,

I cannot tell you how important your post is to me. It struck me this morning like nothing else this Lenten season. I'm a new convert and I can tell you this was precisely where my heart was when I first noticed Orthodoxy existed.

I wish I could sit and talk with you instead of writing a post, but I'd like to offer a couple of thoughts that I hope help.

First, I want to say one bit of caution. I am very young in the faith, so take my words lightly here. But I think we don't give those old ladies enough credit. Why do I say this? After all, aren't we already saying wonderful things about them? Because even our wonderful things are not adequate to express a life suffered for Christ trusting in Him. You see those old ladies didn't wake up one day and have such peaceful countenances. They have had many, many terrible days of doubt and pain through which they have persevered. You see the fruit harvested of a lifetime of labor. Do not think that someone can simply tell you about God (even the Church in all Her 2000 year testimony!) and impart you with peace of soul. To paraphrase a recent movie, the martyrs can lead you to the door, but you must walk through it.

With my caution said first, I'd like to secondly encourage you. While it's true that the trust and peace you and I both yearn deeply for may be a lifetime away (in fact, we may not fully know it until we see Him face to face), there is a path to walk. The Church knows what it's doing for salvation (though we often obsess with all sort of other less important aspects of the Church). If you go, if you pray, if you humble yourself, if you obey your spiritual father, if you work out your salvation with fear and trembling, if you draw near with faith and love, the Church will feed you. The Saints WILL comfort you.

I prayed to Saint John of Kronstadt before my first "after baptism" confession (he isn't my patron saint, but I was baptized on his feast day so I feel a connection to him). I begged him to help me confess. I was deeply bothered at the time that I didn't feel his help. I went back to His icon afterward and apologized for being unworthy of his help. But I realized in that moment that he had helped me. I am a proud man and I needed to stumble. I needed to skin my knee and feel like a fool in front of my spiritual father that day. The Holy Spirit gave St John that knowledge to help me.

This is the truth as I know it, that no one can tell you adequately about God, you must come to know God by His presence in the life of the Church.

As a confession of sorts here, I did a very rigorous study before I became Orthodox. I read thousands of pages, looked up every footnote, read every Orthodox dissent I could find as well. I did all these things because it was necessary to unburden myself of the need to be complete in myself. I needed to be able to turn, not just my salvation, but that of my wife and children, over to the Church admitting my own inadaquacies. But ultimately did gave me no joy. I only know joy in those brief moments where my limited spiritual cooperation with Him offers up a bit of feeble, but precious fruit.

I don't have faith because of Bishop Ware's footnotes (no matter how copious), I have faith because the Lord was with me during my son's fight with and eventual death to cancer. Whatever peace of soul I've gained in that time was hard fought. But it is my pearl of great price that I would not sell for all the gold in the world. I would not dishonor my son's memory or my God.

[Irene]

I agree with the previous posts, pray.

I have a good friend who was not a member of any Church, but seeking, with a strong hunger. While standing in an Orthodox Church she offered heartfelt prayer to God and asked if "this" was where she belonged. During the service her mind was full of questions and she wondered who she could talk to.

At the end of the service a man came up to her and started answering all her questions without her having asked them.

To be Orthodox is a long and tough journey but rewarding. As a convert I have never felt the old emptiness of my former self, instead I feel enriched. Not always joyous, sorrows are a part of life, but often uplifted.

[Jennifer Anne S.]

Thank you all for your thoughtful and heartfelt responses. I will consider them all as I continue to explore!

-Jennifer

[Amy]

A warm welcome Jennifer Anne!

I cannot add much, as you have already been given such good advice. I just want to encourage your journey into Orthodoxy by participating in her worship. I am a convert from Protestantism and I have experienced such healing through the Divine Liturgy... all the books I've read can little compare to the experience of worship in the presence of heaven and God's abundant mercies within the Body of Christ.

Peace to you