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J. K. Amra
15-04-2009, 11:49 PM
Monks follow a very busy schedule of prayer and work, I was wondering how much sleep do you think an Orthodox monk gets, and if their prayer and work schedule is so strict, how can many of them have time to write books, like Seraphim Rose?


Thanks.

Kusanagi
16-04-2009, 01:10 AM
15 minutes according to a monk from Mt Athos said. Or not at all according to a fr i know here who has met such a monk on Mt Athos. He hasnt slept for 2-3 years now.

Ryan
16-04-2009, 02:44 AM
Monks follow a very busy schedule of prayer and work, I was wondering how much sleep do you think an Orthodox monk gets, and if their prayer and work schedule is so strict, how can many of them have time to write books, like Seraphim Rose?


Thanks.

I think it really depends on the monastery and the rules there. I have heard of some monks getting about 2-3 hours each night, and other monks with a more 'normal' schedule.

Paul Cowan
16-04-2009, 05:19 AM
At Athos they go to bed around 9:00pm and get up at midnight for their prayer rule for an hour then go back to bed for an hour or two then get up at about 2:00am for services that last until after daylight. Some then take another nap or stay up until early afternoon and then if they need to take another nap they do.

You can read the lives of the saints and see some slept standing up or little at all on just on a stool. One Holy Father quoted just recently on the forum said a monk only needs 1 hour of sleep a night. To me this is extreme in the extreme.

Of course each monk is distinct and separate and under the guidance of their igumen. They all have separate talents and needs. It is up to them with their spiritual father to strike a balance. They, as we, are to mortify our bodies and passions. Little sleep and little food with the help of prayer fights off the demons. They take to heart the scripture of the being awake for the bridegroom as he cometh at midnight; like we are reading during the services this week. We read the parable of the 10 virgins tonight. 5 were wise and had thier fill of oil, 5 were foolish and did not keep their lamps full of oil. What is this oil if not Good Works. The bridegroom came for them at midnight. Some were ready, others were locked out of the marriage hall.

Paul

On a personal note, I go to bed around midnight every night and I have been waking up every morning around 4:30am. Wide awake and it takes me several minutes to go back to sleep. I am setting up another icon corner in my bedroom so when this happens, I can emulate the Athonite monks and get up, say a few prayers and try to go back to sleep for 2 more hours. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but I find it intersting I wake up almost exactly the same time every morning.

Alice
16-04-2009, 05:46 AM
Sleep is regenerating and God created man to sleep on average eight hours for optimum health and mental clarity. I don't see why non monastics would need to modify that?

J. K. Amra
16-04-2009, 05:59 AM
You can read the lives of the saints and see some slept standing up or little at all on just on a stool. One Holy Father quoted just recently on the forum said a monk only needs 1 hour of sleep a night. To me this is extreme in the extreme.
.


I agree, but on the other hand, I think if you are a novice, the rules are a little less strict, as you continue in your ascetic lifestyle you advance as you go - I am not sure on this, but hope that this is so.

Paul Cowan
16-04-2009, 06:04 AM
I would love to get 8 full hours uninterrupted sleep a day. It'll never happen. I can't remember the last time I actually got to "sleep in". I don't purposfully wake myself up at 4:30am. I just wake up. As long as I am up, I might as well make it productive. Besides, I have read medically we only need 6 hours restful sleep with 8 being the optimum.

I wear a CPAP so depending on how much I toss and turn, I roll over onto it waking myself up multiple times a night; not to mention the dogs barking at every little sound outside. And I am not the only human in my house that snores. (Don't tell her I said that).

Paul Cowan
16-04-2009, 06:07 AM
I agree, but on the other hand, I think if you are a novice, the rules are a little less strict, as you continue in your ascetic lifestyle you advance as you go - I am not sure on this, but hope that this is so.

I agree, these are examples of the extreme lifestyle. Your question was not about novices though. I think this is the norm...


Of course each monk is distinct and separate and under the guidance of their igumen. They all have separate talents and needs. It is up to them with their spiritual father to strike a balance.

Anthony Stokes
16-04-2009, 03:53 PM
Monks follow a very busy schedule of prayer and work, I was wondering how much sleep do you think an Orthodox monk gets, and if their prayer and work schedule is so strict, how can many of them have time to write books, like Seraphim Rose?
Thanks.

Each monk may be assigned different work. At St. Anthony's monastery in AZ, there is a monk that tends the vineyards and makes wine, there is one that runs the bookstore, and one that spends all of his time setting Byzantine chant in English and putting it online. So, writing books and running a publishing company was probably a good bit of the daily work that Fr. Seraphim did. Abbot Gerasim of St. Herman's was actually at my church a few weeks ago talking about what they do there, but I didn't get to hear it. My wife did, maybe I'll ask her more specifics.

The typical daily schedule at the Elder Ephraim monasteries in the U.S. have two rest periods. One in the evening after Compline, from maybe between 7and 8 until midnight. Then prayer and reading until 3am when the morning services happen. After the liturgy and breakfast there is another rest period, say from 7:30-11am. Then they start their work, sometimes with lunch in between. They work until dinner and evening services.

So, there is the possibility of 5-8 hours of "rest" a day. Feasts and such had different schedules of course.

Sbdn. Anthony

Owen Jones
16-04-2009, 05:14 PM
My own personal opinion is that a spiritually healthy body needs only 4 hours per night and the rest is harmful. Do I practice that? Not yet!

Herman Blaydoe
16-04-2009, 09:03 PM
Reality is defined in the official Pooh dictionary as that bothersome period between naps.

Herman the Pooh

Kseniya M.
16-04-2009, 10:40 PM
When I had small children, Sleep Was The Most Important Thing In The World. I can't even imagine getting so little sleep and being able to cope with my boisterous boys, much less anything else. I'd become a shrieking harpy.

(Actually, I occasionally have periods of unexplained insomnia. I become completely unable to cope with anything unexpected, and if pressed, I do actually shriek. Yes, me, the shy shrinking violet, shrieking.)

-Kseniya

Fr Raphael Vereshack
16-04-2009, 10:57 PM
When I had small children, Sleep Was The Most Important Thing In The World. I can't even imagine getting so little sleep and being able to cope with my boisterous boys, much less anything else. I'd become a shrieking harpy.

(Actually, I occasionally have periods of unexplained insomnia. I become completely unable to cope with anything unexpected, and if pressed, I do actually shriek. Yes, me, the shy shrinking violet, shrieking.)

-Kseniya

A huge difference between a monastery and a modern home however is the continuous noise & energy level of the latter. This is an incredible challenge. When I meet my younger parents I see them as martyric. As a monk priest the greatest challenge I face is from my cat when she's charging around the house! Pretty minor stuff but I still don't like it.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Cyprian (Humphrey)
17-04-2009, 12:33 AM
It's already been mentioned that there is considerable difference between monasteries, and practices of individual monks. Some monks don't sleep at all - others get a "normal" eight hours of sleep a night. And there's everything in between. I suspect the ones that seem to sleep very little are engaging in what is known as microsleep, and aren't even aware of it themselves.

What I would like to mention is a warning: cutting back on sleep is an incredibly powerful asceticism. In fact, it's so powerful, it should not be done unless one is under the *close* supervision of a spiritual father or elder who is experienced in this particular type of asceticism!

Rocket fuel is extremely powerful, and when used correctly, it can do stuff like put a man on the moon and bring him back again. Used incorrectly... well, you get my point.

Sleep deprivation can produce all sorts of psychological phenonmena that can easily be taken for "spiritual progress" by someone who is inexperienced. Feeling tired and sleepy is not the only symptom of sleep deprivation. One can have feelings of euphoria, hallucinations, deleria, a host of memory problems, and the list goes on.

It's just that, unless one is guided directly and closely by an experienced guide in this sort of thing, the sin of prelest is almost guaranteed to come of it. A few notable exceptions are people like St John of Shanghai and San Francisco - but they are the exceptions, not the rule!

Now, I know that most of you were not planning on imitating this in your lives, but there are some impressionable people out there who might want to try. My advice is DON'T! Unless you are a monastic, in a monastic community, under an experienced elder and surrounded by people who can help you if they see any warning signs. Sleep deprivation is dangerous.

Those of us who are, basically, on their own in this, should keep getting (or trying to get, in the case of parents of youngsters) a regular healthy sleep.

If God grants you this as a spiritual gift and it comes naturally to you (as in, you don't ever feel tired anymore, and are suffering no ill effects), then that's a different matter.

D. W. Dickens
17-04-2009, 03:29 AM
This bares repeating. Many monks over the centuries have died and many others have fallen into prelest.

Even simple vegetarianism or the ordinary fasting followed in your tradition shouldn't be started without the consultation of a medical professional and a discussion with your spiritual father.

While there are many health benefits from the fasts of the Church, they are not "safe" by any means (that is, they cannot be done without mindfulness and planning).

One more time, before you commit to any such thing think of all those who ran out into the desert, of them only a few have survived to tell us the spiritual wisdom they gained.

Kseniya M.
17-04-2009, 03:34 AM
If God grants you this as a spiritual gift and it comes naturally to you (as in, you don't ever feel tired anymore, and are suffering no ill effects), then that's a different matter.

The men in my husband's family seem to need less and less sleep as they get older, and this seems to be true of my husband as well. If I should pre-decease him while he's still strong enough, I could see him going the monastic route and not sleeping very much. It would be very like him.

(I, on the other hand, still need plenty of sleep, even though our boys are now grown and the pandemonium level in the house has dropped to close to zero.)

-Kseniya

Robin Elizabeth
17-04-2009, 06:47 PM
It's the norm for humans to need less sleep as they age.

Also, my understanding is that often monasteries with stricter schedules (lots of manual labor, the midnight office, short sleep periods, etc) are reluctant to take on older people as novices for the reason that it is much harder for them to adjust to the routine then it is for someone younger.

Of the monasteries I've visited (all of which are in the "slavic" tradition), none of them did the midnight office, or have short sleep periods. That doesn't mean that all the monastics sleep a full 8 hrs, since I know some of them don't. Just that they are not required to sleep in stages - they have all night if they need it.

D. W. Dickens
17-04-2009, 08:55 PM
If you do a Google search for "myth old people sleep less" or other similar terms you'll find this is a myth. In fact, they might not be able to sleep as much or their sleep might not be as effective or they might nap more appearing to sleep less at night, but in fact they need just as much sleep as younger people.

However, it is true that very young children and teenagers need massive amounts of sleep. This is one of the main difficulties with adolescence in American culture as teenagers are both tempted by their peers to have fun and pressured by adults to over-achieve in a way that comes through sacrificing adequate sleep.

Robin Elizabeth
18-04-2009, 05:49 AM
According to a controlled study done by researchers at Harvard Medical School and the National Institutes of Health, seniors need 1 1/2 hours less sleep then younger people.

Peter S.
18-04-2009, 03:01 PM
He who sleeps does not sin. ;)

Peter S.
18-04-2009, 03:19 PM
Sleep "repairs" the brain. St. John of Shanghai didnt have a brain to "repair" in the nights when he didnt sleep I think.

I mean his thoughts were pure.

Kseniya M.
19-04-2009, 10:21 PM
He who sleeps does not sin. ;)

That's what you think.

-Kseniya, who has had temper tantrums in her dreams and waken up still angry :-D

D. W. Dickens
19-04-2009, 10:26 PM
I read something recently from the Fathers, I can't remember where, that sleep is an evil. Essentially because it is a kin to death, either an imitation or a metaphor for it. And sleep was distinctly discouraged.

Father David Moser
19-04-2009, 10:53 PM
Monks follow a very busy schedule of prayer and work, I was wondering how much sleep do you think an Orthodox monk gets,

Monks get as much sleep as they need and never as much as they want and probably more than is sufficient for survival.

Fr David Moser

Olga
20-04-2009, 12:13 AM
I read something recently from the Fathers, I can't remember where, that sleep is an evil. Essentially because it is a kin to death, either an imitation or a metaphor for it. And sleep was distinctly discouraged.

There are plenty of "prayers before sleep" which ask that sleep be undisturbed by unseemly thoughts and "phantasies". There are some monastic communities where sleep is kept to a minimum, as others have mentioned. But sleep being inherently "evil"? That's a bit rough.

Vasiliki D.
20-04-2009, 08:42 AM
Should a person be practising the virtue of his prayer rule (under the guidance of his Elder) and be a true repentant heart - pure enough to invite the uncreated light into it - then that particular "saint" would have no need for sleep since the grace of God would take away that human condition ...

There are documented cases of Saints who prayed for days without sleeping or eating at all ...

Herman Blaydoe
20-04-2009, 09:30 AM
I read something recently from the Fathers, I can't remember where, that sleep is an evil. Essentially because it is a kin to death, either an imitation or a metaphor for it. And sleep was distinctly discouraged.
Well, this sounds rather ominous:

Behold, the Bridegroom cometh at midnight,
and blessed is the servant whom He shall find watching;
and again, unworthy is the servant whom He shall find sleeping.
Beware, therefore, O my soul, do not be weighed down with sleep,
Lest you be given up to death,
And lest you be shut out of the Kingdom!
But rouse yourself, crying: “Holy, holy, holy, art Thou, O our God!”
Through the Theotokos have mercy on us!
Tropar from the Bridegroom Matins of Holy Week

And this from the Prayers Before Sleep:


Prayer to Jesus Christ:
0 Master, to us who are about to lie down to sleep grant rest of body and soul; and keep us from the dark sleep of sin and from any impure pleasure roaming in the darkness of night.

Still the assaults of evil passions, quench the fiery darts of the evil one which are cast insidiously against us. calm the rebellious commotions of our flesh and put away from us all earthly and worldly thoughts.

Grant us, 0 God, a watchful mind, chaste thoughts, a sober heart and gentle sleep, free from all fantasies of Satan.

And raise us up again at the hour of prayer, established in the practice of Your commandments and holding steadfast within us the remembrance of Your righteous judgments.

Grant us to sing Your glory all night long; to praise, bless and glorify Your all-honorable and magnificent name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen.

Christ is Risen!

Kseniya M.
20-04-2009, 03:14 PM
But there is also this from the Morning Prayers (Prayer VI, by St. Basil):


We bless Thee, O Most High God and Lord of mercy Who ever doest with us things both great and inscrutable, both glorious and awesome, of which there is no measure; Who grantest to us sleep for rest from our infirmities, and relaxation from the labours of our much-toiling flesh.-Kseniya, tossing in a monkey wrench before she dashes off to drive a kid to an appt

Andreas Moran
21-04-2009, 07:53 AM
But sleep being inherently "evil"? That's a bit rough.

Particularly if we recall that our sinless Lord slept.

D. W. Dickens
21-04-2009, 08:48 AM
From the Ladder of Divine Ascent, 19:

Sleep is a particular state of nature, an image of death, an inactivity of the senses.
in 20 there are several such as:

Long sleep produces forgetfulness, but vigil purifies the memory.
St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Psalms.

The night was not made to be spent entirely in sleep. Why did Jesus Christ pass so many nights amid the mountains, if not to instruct us by His example? It is during the night that all the plants respire, and it is then also that the soul of man is more penetrated with the dews falling from Heaven; and everything that has been scorched and burned during the day by the sun's fierce heat is refreshed and renewed during the night; and the tears we shed at night extinguish the fires of passion and quieten our guilty desires. Night heals the wounds of our soul and calms out griefs.
St Basil on Fasting1 Homily1.

For drunkenness not only brings on sleep, the brother of death, but also a wakefulness that resembles dreams.
St Basil Epistle 2, to St Gregory the Theologian.

Let sleep be light and easily interrupted, as naturally happens after a light diet; it should be purposely broken by thoughts about great themes. To be overcome by heavy torpor, with limbs unstrung, so that a way is readily opened to wild fancies, is to be plunged in daily death.
Another page on Vigils.

http://www.pigizois.net/agglika/athoniko_gerontiko/11.htm
St. Paisy of Neamt, The Variety of Demonic Battles.

Thus the demons cast us into every passion. They compel us to fall to every sin, and we are tangled in every net. By nets I mean the first thought of desires and various foul thoughts through which we bind ourselves with every passion, and fall into every sin. This is the door of demons and passions, by which they enter into us and rob our spiritual treasury. Immoderate sleep, laziness, eating not at the proper time are a cause of the entrance of demons.

[And later lists sleep among the tools of demons.]

Then they begin to scheme and place various nets to catch us in passion, for example: forgetfulness, anger, foolishness, self-love, pride, love of glory, love of pleasure, overeating, gluttony, fornication, unmercifulness, anger, remembrance of wrongs, blasphemy, sorrow, brazenness, vainglory, much speaking, despondency, fearfulness, sleep, laziness, heaviness, fright, jealousy, envy, hatred, hypocrisy, deception, murmuring, unbelief, disobedience, covetousness, love of things, egotism, faintheartedness, duplicity, bitterness, ambition, and laughter.
Bishop Chrysostomos, a response to a modernist abbot.

Too much sleep and too much nourishment lead to lethargy, poor health, and inattention to things spiritual.
Of course the Lord has numerous words about sleep in the Gospels, from scolding his disciples for sleeping while he prayed, to the trimming of wicks and keeping of lamp oil and any manner of metaphors for wakefulness, watchfulness and preparedness.

Rick H.
21-04-2009, 12:56 PM
I imagine with this topic, as others, there is a balance, a middle ground, and one size does not fit all.

In Christ,
Rick

Fr Raphael Vereshack
21-04-2009, 04:01 PM
This topic is putting me to sleep.

Rick H.
21-04-2009, 04:27 PM
In a word . . . ditto.

I think I'm still recovering from my lack of sleep from the Pascha service! :)

D. W. Dickens
21-04-2009, 11:51 PM
Please forgive me. I suppose because of my generally humorous nature folks aren't taking my posts on this subject seriously.

I would appreciate it if someone could help me out on this. I'm a big fan of sleep and it seems there are plenty of indications that being a fan of sleep is not good for my spiritual well-being as understood by the Fathers, particularly monastics.

Andreas Moran
21-04-2009, 11:54 PM
It was while Joseph was asleep that an angel told him the truth about Mary's conception.

Herman Blaydoe
22-04-2009, 12:10 AM
Please forgive me. I suppose because of my generally humorous nature folks aren't taking my posts on this subject seriously.

I would appreciate it if someone could help me out on this. I'm a big fan of sleep and it seems there are plenty of indications that being a fan of sleep is not good for my spiritual well-being as understood by the Fathers, particularly monastics.

Sorry but that is really a question best answered by a trusted spiritual advisor, not a bunch of Internet theologians. And what is appropriate for monastics is not necessarily appropriate for you.

Herman the Pooh who enjoys his naps

Olga
22-04-2009, 01:11 AM
It was while Joseph was asleep that an angel told him the truth about Mary's conception.

... and there are a number of other Biblical figures who were similarly visited in their sleep by messengers of God. Joseph the All-comely immediately comes to mind.

Alice
22-04-2009, 03:07 AM
Sorry but that is really a question best answered by a trusted spiritual advisor, not a bunch of Internet theologians.

HEHEHE...I have never heard the title 'internet theologian' before! It sounds kind of impressive! ;)


And what is appropriate for monastics is not necessarily appropriate for you.



For sure!!!


Herman the Pooh who enjoys his naps

Me too! Now to sleep I go! :)

So, I don't know about how much sleep monks get, but I know that I need to get enough! :)

Christ is Risen!
Alice :)

Herman Blaydoe
23-04-2009, 02:13 AM
... and there are a number of other Biblical figures who were similarly visited in their sleep by messengers of God. Joseph the All-comely immediately comes to mind.

"... and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams..."

Jacob had his vision while dreaming but awoke regretting that he had slept in a holy place. What are we to make of this?

Herman the old Pooh

Andreas Moran
23-04-2009, 11:41 AM
Jacob had his vision while dreaming but awoke regretting that he had slept in a holy place. What are we to make of this?

Herman the old Pooh

What I make of it is that I should avoid sleeping in holy places. I'll tell my wife to nudge me if I drop off in church. I recall that Abba Dorotheos had a novice whose job it was to do this for him.

Eric Peterson
24-04-2009, 06:38 AM
St. John Chrysostom had a very positive word to say about sleep, but I can't find it. That's the problem with random quotes from the Fathers, you can't always find them when you need them.

I don't find that the Fathers view sleep in absolute terms. How they talked about it would depend on what else they were saying, as well as their audience. There are some people, for example, that sleep out of laziness. But there are others that sleep because the genuinely need sleep.

The quote from St. John I was looking for, if I recall correctly, referred to the necessity of sleep and its good benefits. While St. John was an ascetic, he was also one who through asceticism damaged his health, and I'm sure he did not lose the awareness of this.

Fr Seraphim (Black)
06-05-2009, 08:04 AM
This is indeed a worthy discussion and one which can at times literally astonish.

Fr. Sophrony was a strong adherent to all monastic asceticisim. Indeed by our Lord's tender mercy I was granted an especial insight due to my years as his cell assistant (1976 until May of 1981)

First (for the time being) we must absolutely keep this within the scope of monasticism: that is; stricley under the direction and blessing of one's duhonvik, starez, abba, gerondas. Woe unto anyone who follows the devil and embraces self-will. This is a certain descent into hell.

I remember Fr. Soprhony relating words concerning this topic which he attributed to Staretz Silouan: That with the Grace of the Holy Spirit, the Sacraments of the Church and assiduous asceticsim of a person sleep may be reduced (without any harm) to four hours out of twenty-four. Beyond this was the action solely of the Holy Spirit.

Living so close, for instance to Staretz Iustin (Pirov) of Petru Voda allowed me to witness foty-five minutes sleep out of twenty-four hours, followed by a full days' activity - and this in his late eighties.

Blessed absence of sleep, allows more time for Prayer!

By the Intercession of the Theotokos may I arise from slumber!

J. K. Amra
06-05-2009, 07:21 PM
Thank you to everyone's replies, they are all very helpful, I am learning a lot from this site that I didn't know before. That goes to show you that internet is good for something positive after all.

Ryan
01-10-2009, 04:41 AM
There are plenty of "prayers before sleep" which ask that sleep be undisturbed by unseemly thoughts and "phantasies". There are some monastic communities where sleep is kept to a minimum, as others have mentioned. But sleep being inherently "evil"? That's a bit rough.

My Jordanville prayer book has a prayer before going to bed which asks that we be kept from "all dreams and dark pleasures". Is this a bad translation or are dreams really considered uniformly bad? I notice the 1986 edition has "temptations" instead of "dreams."

Owen
01-10-2009, 06:50 AM
The ancient Fathers seem to have regarded dreams as idola--visions of unreal things, to which we ought not to pay attention. Most dreams do, in fact, seem in retrospect to be trivial in nature, or else to be far more about self than about God or other holy things; it's no wonder the Fathers had a negative opinion of them.

Fr Raphael Vereshack
01-10-2009, 04:04 PM
My Jordanville prayer book has a prayer before going to bed which asks that we be kept from "all dreams and dark pleasures". Is this a bad translation or are dreams really considered uniformly bad? I notice the 1986 edition has "temptations" instead of "dreams."

The word in Slavonic- мечтания- refers to dreaming rather than temptations.

But perhaps in the version where it has 'temptations' this was an effort to give a spiritual interpretation to the word rather than a straight translation.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Mary
02-10-2009, 02:04 AM
My Jordanville prayer book has a prayer before going to bed which asks that we be kept from "all dreams and dark pleasures". Is this a bad translation or are dreams really considered uniformly bad? I notice the 1986 edition has "temptations" instead of "dreams."

I love this prayer - as "all dreams and dark pleasures".

Can't answer your question about dreams in general. But I can tell you about my dreams - they were always so vivid - I could remember incredible details, even entire conversations. I've entertained my friends with my dreams because of how deeply they imprinted themselves in my mind. While most of my dreams were like funny stories, there were also those that were incredibly dark and would fill me with terror. Once awake, these dreams could so easily feed my thoughts, which in turn could easily turn into temptations. In a way, they were like the seeds for my temptations.

The most peaceful sleep I have, is when I dream of nothing at all. That's when I feel like my mind is at complete rest. I haven't had any troublesome dreams for a while now, their details are fuzzy and I quickly forget them when I wake up. But some weeks ago, I had a scary dream that I couldn't wake myself up from, until I started to say the Jesus prayer. I don't know if I prayed in my dream or if I prayed for real. Either ways, it was ever and ever so hard to say the first one, and once I got the first prayer out, the thing that seemed to be choking me got weaker.

Anyway - if you haven't had troubling dreams, then you are blessed. Some of us need to pray for protection from dreams. =)

In Christ,
Mary.

Ryan
03-10-2009, 02:36 AM
I'm just trying to understand how one reconciles this attitude with the dreams that saints often have, which are illuminating. Almost every day when I read lives of the saints I come across a saint who has been enlightened by God through a dream. I suppose the undesirable dreams are implied to arise from the passions and demonic temptations, whereas when we pray "enlighten for me the eyes of my heart with understanding, lest I sleep unto death" this could include visions from God and his saints.

Mary
03-10-2009, 03:14 AM
I'm just trying to understand how one reconciles this attitude with the dreams that saints often have, which are illuminating. Almost every day when I read lives of the saints I come across a saint who has been enlightened by God through a dream. I suppose the undesirable dreams are implied to arise from the passions and demonic temptations, whereas when we pray "enlighten for me the eyes of my heart with understanding, lest I sleep unto death" this could include visions from God and his saints.

From what I've understood, we shouldn't seek dreams and visions, because they can very easily deceive us.

Paul Cowan
03-10-2009, 03:14 AM
Ryan,

Yes, but think of how few saints have actually had a vision versus the number of monks throughout time times 365 days in a year. Not the norm I am sure to have a Godly visitation.

Paul

Father David Moser
03-10-2009, 05:03 AM
Almost every day when I read lives of the saints I come across a saint who has been enlightened by God through a dream.

Hagiography is a distillation of the important events int he lives the saints. We only read of the spiritually significant events of their lives, not those daily struggles against which they labored day in and day out. Thus all the dreams of the saints that we read of in their lives are the one that are important in their lives - all the others we never know about. Our lives touch the lives of the saints (hopefully) on those high points.

Fr David Moser

Michael Stickles
07-10-2009, 09:17 PM
My Jordanville prayer book has a prayer before going to bed which asks that we be kept from "all dreams and dark pleasures". Is this a bad translation or are dreams really considered uniformly bad? I notice the 1986 edition has "temptations" instead of "dreams."

Given the full text of the prayer (http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/prayerbook/sleep.htm#5) (with "dreams" re-substituted for "temptations"):


O Lord our God, in Whom we believe and Whose Name we invoke above every name, grant us preparing for sleep relaxation of soul and body, and keep us from all dreams and dark pleasures. Stop the rushing of passions, and quench the burning of bodily tensions. Grant us to live chastely in word and act, that we may live a life of heroic virtue and not fall away from Thy promised blessings. For Thou art blessed for ever. Amen.

My guess would be that it's less a reference to dreams as evil in themselves, and more a recognition that they often reflect the disturbances going on within us, especially the passions (as an example, St. Basil the Great once mentioned (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf208.ix.xxiii.html?highlight=dream#highlight) dreams coming from over-eating). I know that when I'm struggling with various passions, I often see them reflected in my dreams. The rare times when I don't have dreams tend to correspond to the rare times when I'm not having major struggles with passions.

I like this prayer - it starts from a simple request for calm in the present moment, and incrementally expands outwards to eternity:


grant us ... relaxation of soul and body (stilling whatever disturbances/passions we may be currently suffering)
keep us from all dreams and dark pleasures (that those disturbances/passions might not influence us in our sleep, and especially - the "dark pleasures" bit - that we not embrace them)
Stop the rushing of passions (not just now, but that this stilling of passions might become a more permanent part of my life)
quench the burning of bodily tensions (moving beyond passions to even the disturbances that can produce and "fuel" them)
Grant us to live chastely in word and act (replacing the passions with the presence of virtue as our lifestyle)
that we may live a life of heroic virtue (becoming more and more active in virtue, even to "super-normal" levels)
and not fall away from Thy promised blessings (attaining salvation in the life to come)
In Christ,
Michael