Is fasting only for monastics?

[Alice]

I was told by a friend that a priest in a SCOBA jurisdiction in the U.S. told his parishioner that fasting from meat is "a monastic practice", and that therefore, eating meat during Lent and/or on Fridays is fine!

I am not a fundamentalist, and I believe that fasting in the wrong mindset (adhering to the law but not the spirit) and without the right heart (judging others, gossiping, not praying, not having confession, etc.) can be a bad thing (I believe I read that one saint said that fasting this way can lead to prelest) rather than a good thing, but this was never the less, shocking!

In order to not be a hypocrite, I will also add that as a cradle growing up in such a Protestantized jurisdictional mindset, I did not fast for most of my life.

My fast now is not to follow the rules of my priest, who is very traditional and advocates it, but because I 'feel' in my spirit and heart the need to follow it together with other Orthodox ascetical practices as part of the spiritual place God has brought me through many trials, difficulties, and sorrow. Therefore, I do not judge my fellow parishioners who do not fast yet, nor do I really look at what they are doing, because I, too, was once one of them.

Ofcourse, said priest is from a certain 'generation' in that jurisdiction which wished to throw away traditional Orthodox praxis and traditions (no rassa, no metanoies, no fasting, no confession). Not all priests in that jurisdiction are like that anymore, thanks to a former Archbishop, who though his tenure was short, made a big 'stink' about restoring Orthodoxy to this ORthodox jurisdiction!

I would like to hear your comments about what he said about it being 'a monastic practice' only.

In the risen Christ,
Alice

[Herman Blaydoe]

Our Lord did not say "do not fast", nor did He say "if you fast". He said "WHEN you fast..." and there were no "monastics" as we would define the term then. He was/is talking to all of his followers. He expects us to fast and the Church gives us the proper guidelines and guidance in how to do so.

Couch potatoes say we do not have to exercise. Pew potatoes say we don't have to fast. Just out of curiosity, has anyone who attends a parish without pews come across the attitude that fasting is not an integral part of Orthodox life? Just wondering.

Herman the curious Pooh

[Alice]

Our Lord did not say "do not fast", nor did He say "if you fast". He said "WHEN you fast..." and there were no "monastics" as we would define the term then. He was/is talking to all of his followers. He expects us to fast and the Church gives us the proper guidelines and guidance in how to do so.

Couch potatoes say we do not have to exercise. Pew potatoes say we don't have to fast. Just out of curiosity, has anyone who attends a parish without pews come across the attitude that fasting is not an integral part of Orthodox life? Just wondering.

Herman the curious Pooh

I get the insinuation, dear Herman...good question!!!

I do agree with you. I did not agree with the priest. Even if someone chooses not to fast, that doesn't mean that the priest shouldn't preach the correct thing.

All the best,
Alice :)

[Andreas Moran]

I was told by a friend that a priest in a SCOBA jurisdiction in the U.S. told his parishioner that fasting from meat is "a monastic practice", and that therefore, eating meat during Lent and/or on Fridays is fine!

Utterly disgraceful! That priest ought to be confined in a monastery and put on bread and water!

[Andrew D. Morrell]

Utterly disgraceful! That priest ought to be confined in a monastery and put on bread and water!

Heh. Funny.

I just came across this:
"You greatly delude yourself and err, if you think that one thing is demanded from the layman and another from the monk...what has turned the world upside down is that we think only the monk must live rigorously, while the rest are allowed to live a life of indolence" St. John Chrysostom

In Christ,
Andrew

[Paul Cowan]

Couch potatoes say we do not have to exercise. Pew potatoes say we don't have to fast. Just out of curiosity, has anyone who attends a parish without pews come across the attitude that fasting is not an integral part of Orthodox life? Just wondering.

Herman the curious Pooh

pews; no
chairs; yes
fasting; yes
confession; yes
bearded priest; yes
candles; yes
drums; no
guitar; no
convicting homilies; oh yeah!

[Mary Emily Hamilton]

I think I'm beginning to see, in various references to a slackening of the Church's disciplines, a tendency toward the "fashionable, sophisticated" approach to Christianity that's so common among the moral and theological relativists. People claim that if we reduce faith and practice to the Lowest Common Denominator, it'll make the Church more "up to date", "welcoming", and "inclusive". It doesn't.

It worries me, a lot.

Mary H.

[Olga]

Mary Emily, speaking from my long experience with both Slavic and Greek "flavours" of Orthodoxy, I can assure you that if any Greek or Slavic priest were to have indeed stated that "fasting is only for monastics, and not for laymen", within a VERY short time he would find himself before his bishop, being asked to explain himself. Which wouldn't be much fun.

The only possible reason I can imagine which could "justify" such a statement on fasting would be if this priest was giving specific advice to a specific parishioner whose health or age would preclude fasting.

[Margaret S.]

People claim that if we reduce faith and practice to the Lowest Common Denominator, it'll make the Church more "up to date", "welcoming", and "inclusive". It doesn't.
Mary H.

Pretty much what the Anglicans and RCs have been suggesting for most of my life. I can still remember a Bishop of the Church of England promising us that if we ordained women we would be flooded with converts. I haven't been in a C of E church since 1992 but I'm fairly sure they aren't bursting at the seams. Ditto with eating meat in Lent, it will certainly be more trendy, welcoming and inclusive (just like priestesses) but no-one actually show up because of it. The kind of thing Alice described always seems to me a circuitous route to closing churches when it would be much simpler just to stick a notice on the door.

Regards
Margaret
in Edinburgh

[Alice]

Mary Emily, speaking from my long experience with both Slavic and Greek "flavours" of Orthodoxy, I can assure you that if any Greek or Slavic priest were to have indeed stated that "fasting is only for monastics, and not for laymen", within a VERY short time he would find himself before his bishop, being asked to explain himself. Which wouldn't be much fun.

The only possible reason I can imagine which could "justify" such a statement on fasting would be if this priest was giving specific advice to a specific parishioner whose health or age would preclude fasting.

Dear Olga,

I will send you a private message.
My last message got taken off, so suffice it to say that the discipline you mention is not enforced.
The Greek church in the U.S. has gone through growing pains and an identity crisis. I know because I was raised in it throughout that time.
Fortunately, the pendulum is swinging back to traditionalism. We had an archbishop of only three years administration, who was 'martyred' in this country, to thank for this swing back to Orthodoxy.
May God bless Archbishop Spyridon for this, and may God bless him also in his retirement. :-)

In Christ,
Alice

[Mary Emily Hamilton]

Oh dear.... I didn't mean I was noticing the deconstructionist/modernist/relativist trend among the Orthodox clergy.

Where I notice it most is among the young adult laity, the ones who are very much "with it" as far as the latest fashions go...whether those be fashions of ideology or of practice.

Maybe I'm just another old lady worrying about nothing...I hope that's the case with me. Perhaps I hear too many cries of distress from non-Orthodox friends--I've been away from them all for over 30 years, but nowadays, they're asking me questions again--not about Orthodoxy, unfortunately, but "What would an Orthodox parish do if they found themselves in our situation?"

I don't try to answer them; I wouldn't be qualified. I offer them my unworthy prayers and try to change the subject of the conversation. I hope that's the best thing for me to do--Those folks really need pastoral help right then, and the only reason they're consulting me is that the help they need does not seem to be available at the moment.

Don't get old...you'll always be at home unless you like to ride all over town all day long on the bus. It's free during off-peak hours for senior citizens here....

Mary H.

[D. W. Dickens]

This thread has taken a turn, but it's a good one. It reminds me of why the book of Daniel is so important. I'm not yet so familiar with the saints that I can find good examples among them. But Daniel (and Joseph) are great examples of righteous faithful being both successful and honored in the culturally hostile time and place they lived.

It is possible, I believe for the Church to be faithful and to be a witness to the Truth without compromising it's nature. It is in fact, it's nature that it's witnessing to. If the nature is compromised then there is nothing to sell, as it were.

This may require herculean efforts on our parts to bear ourselves as uncompromising examples of charity and humility so that culturally offensive aspects of the Church can be addressed in non-threatening ways. We should be peacemakers, not agitators.

I was intimidated and off-put by fasting at first. I still am no "fan" (that is, I know it's good for me, but I don't "like" it). But fasting is part of the fullness that was witnessed to me. It cannot be removed without diminishing that witness. I had to confront (and still have to confront) that part of me that wants to "customize" my Christianity. This isn't a buffet. I don't think we are helping people when we avoid these tough decisions (that doesn't mean you throw someone new into the deep end and just hope they swim either).

[Mary Emily Hamilton]

Excellent and very helpful ideas, D.W. Dickens! Thank you!

Next time a fasting season comes up, I will (I know it!) remember your eloquent line, "This is not a buffet!"

Our pastor preached at the beginning of Great Lent: "Remember, fasting and dieting are two different things!"

Christ is Risen!

Best wishes,

Mary H.

[Theodora E.]

Even if someone chooses not to fast, that doesn't mean that the priest shouldn't preach the correct thing.



Alice, I totally agree with you. At a previous parish, the priest gave his own spin on fasting guidelines: fish was OK any fasting day (shellfish too expensive, he said, and tuna is cheap), and no mention of oil/wine. The issue I had was that he never taught the traditional fasting guidelines, only his spin (only give up meat and dairy and fish is OK any time during a fast). I remember once when a visiting catechumen on the verge of baptism elsewhere asked what our jurisdiction (NOT the one I'm in now) did about oil - either no olive oil or no oil period. I began to explain to her, but the priest (who was standing nearby) actually shushed me and told me he never wanted to hear me talking like that again! Visitor was very confused at that - she told me her priest expected total absention from oil on no oil days, not just olive oil. A long-time member of the parish sitting next to me covered her ears and told me she didn't want to hear the "traditional rules" - I was surprised as she was very, very traditional in every other way.

I don't get it - if people just do a bit of reading, they're going to come across the traditional guidelines.

But the real kicker came when the bishop was going to visit on a Saturday during Great Lent and several very newly chrismated women were in charge of the meal after the hierarchical service. They wanted to make a fish main dish. They didn't believe me when I told them that the bishop probably fasted from fish, as that was the traditional way to go. I got the priest's wife involved, who convinced them that serving fish to the bishop would not be a good idea. They had NEVER heard that you fast from fish during Great Lent (aside from Annunciation and Palm Sunday).

Priest in question was a convert priest (and not a brand new one, either) who, while very good in some areas, had a really weird take on some things Orthodox have done for centuries. I thank the good Lord every day for the wonderful cradle priest I have now. I know that a cradle priest isn't the solution, as there are some excellent convert priests, but some convert priests do get strange ideas!

[Theodora E.]

Our Lord did not say "do not fast", nor did He say "if you fast". He said "WHEN you fast..." and there were no "monastics" as we would define the term then. He was/is talking to all of his followers. He expects us to fast and the Church gives us the proper guidelines and guidance in how to do so.

Couch potatoes say we do not have to exercise. Pew potatoes say we don't have to fast. Just out of curiosity, has anyone who attends a parish without pews come across the attitude that fasting is not an integral part of Orthodox life? Just wondering.

Herman the curious Pooh

Herman the Pooh, I love the pew potatoes! :-) The parish I cited - where the priest said fish just grand on any fasting day - did NOT have pews (just some seats around the edges). However, it was a really odd mix of really traditional practices and some funky stuff.

Current OCA parish has chairs (no pews). Yes, they're lined up in rows like pews, but during Great Lent for weekday services all of the chairs but a few are moved out of the way to make room for prostrations. :-)

[Simon]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
I can't help feeling the premise of this thread is somewhat tenuous. A priest is said to have said to a parishioner, who then said to a friend of Alice that eating meat on Good Friday is OK.
God (Yes!) knows that I've been misquoted in my time, and also, alas, that I've misquoted others.
I had understood that fasting was something to keep to oneself, and not to boast about. I had understood that the Pharisees fasted in public, and the followers of Christ in private. If that's so, then any reference to personal fasting seems out of place.
Regarding monastic fasting as opposed to non-monastic fasting, where I live the priests tell us that we cannot be expected to fast in the same way as monastics. Perhaps it's because most of the congregation have lives that are so culturally or physically different from those of monks that monastic fasting could be offensive or debilitating (debilitating for building workers, offensive for those married to people who celebrate Easter earlier. for example.)
Let's try no to be 'holier than thou',

Simon

[Father David Moser]

Regarding monastic fasting as opposed to non-monastic fasting, where I live the priests tell us that we cannot be expected to fast in the same way as monastics. Perhaps it's because most of the congregation have lives that are so culturally or physically different from those of monks that monastic fasting could be offensive or debilitating (debilitating for building workers, offensive for those married to people who celebrate Easter earlier. for example.)

Keeping a strict fast for Great Lent is by no means "debilitating" for construction workers (or anyone else). Most of my house was framed a year ago during Great Lent (and I was part of the work crew - all of it made up of Orthodox Christian builders) and I can tell you from my experience that abstaining from meat, dairy, fish, wine and oil and eating 2 meals a day was not really debilitating. Sure you have to pace yourself, sure you have to eat a sufficient quantity to keep going - but keeping a strict fast was in no way debilitating.

And I still don't understand how fasting can be "offensive" to anyone. Does anyone take offense when a diabetic passes on sweets or when a recovering alcoholic refuses a drink, or when a person with celiac disease turns away from bread? Are you offended when a person who is a Vegan for ethical and moral reasons does not eat meat? Tell me how is fasting in and of itself offensive? Now "fasting" could be construed as offensive I suppose if by my self discipline you are somehow convicted of your lack of self discipline - but then that's not about fasting is it.

The whole "married to a non-Orthodox" thing is a red herring as it is at best an exercise in pastoral mercy which should stay between the priest and his spiritual child. In any case there is no reason to make an extreme exception into the "rule". Neither should extreme exceptions on the other side (extreme strictness by some monastics which are undertaken with the blessing and in consultation with their spiritual fathers) become the "rule" for all. Most monastics fast just like the rest of us (with the exception that for the most part monastics do not usually eat meat at any time), so there is really no reason to create a false dichotomy of "monastic as opposed to non-monastic fasting"

By the same token now we are in a festal season - the fast days (Wed and Fri) are not done away with, but they are relaxed and the whole 40 days of Pascha is filled with joy. Fast with all your might - and feast with all your might.

Christ is Risen!
Fr David Moser

[Simon]

Dear Fr. David,

Perhaps our local priests have a better understanding of local conditions, or perhaps they're wrong , and you're right, far be it from me to know.
However, my original point was that it might be dangerous to base a thread on what someone is supposed to have said to somebody else, who then passed it on to another person, who in turn mentioned it to someone else. I just felt we needed something a bit more concrete to go on before almost treating this unnamed prelate as an apostate! Just a reflection.
Probably a mistaken one.

Yours,

Simon

[Alice]

Dear Fr. David,

However, my original point was that it might be dangerous to base a thread on what someone is supposed to have said to somebody else, who then passed it on to another person, who in turn mentioned it to someone else. I just felt we needed something a bit more concrete to go on before almost treating this unnamed prelate as an apostate! Just a reflection.
Probably a mistaken one.

Yours,

Simon

For the sake of propriety, I did not admit that it was a more direct quote than how you are twisting it.

Never mind that. My post was not about attacking a priest. It was about a philisophical and theological question...If you read my posts again, you will see that I am not accusing or judging anyone.

I do feel, however, that perhaps *you* are unduly attacking me, judging me, and misconstruing the intention of my post?

I simply had a question. Herman answered it very well, and I thank him for that. :-)

I don't see anyone calling the priest, or the countless priests and laity of his generation, (and that includes ME who grew up in that generation of that mentality) an apostate. How could I be judging, if I admit that I once adhered to that same mentality?

Perhaps reading my post more clearly, you might have realized this? :-)

You are greatly putting me on the defensive and causing my soul great distress, so all I will say is to please read my post much more clearly. Thank you.

(I think that is sometimes a problem on these threads. We jump in without reading through every post carefully. We are all guilty of that at one time or another.)

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, have mercy on ME a sinner!

Peace,
In Christ,
Alice

[Father David Moser]

Perhaps it's because most of the congregation have lives that are so culturally or physically different from those of monks

So, now I'm curious - how is our life culturally or physically different from the monastic life. When I visit a monastery, more often than not there is little or no cultural difference and the only physical difference is a bit more simplicity. I have many friends who are monastics and their physical can cultural lives are quite similar to mine (with variations well within the cultural norms.) There are certainly spiritual differences and differences in the cares of daily life but then that is simply that we work out salvation in different arenas - but we live in the same world, we interact with the same popular culture, we say the same prayers, we have the same services. I just don't see the great gulf between monastic and lay life that seems to be implied by this statement. I have, occasionally, contemplated the possibility of entering monastic life should I outlive my wife - but it always comes back to asking "why?" since I would see little difference (other than the cool clothes) in the way that I live now (well no BBQ's but I guess I could switch to grilled tuna and salmon rather than beef and pork).

Oh, and lest one would be tempted to say "Yes, but you're a priest" I would have to say that many laymen I know could say the same thing. So let's expand this discussion a bit and consider the question, aside from not eating meat, what is the big difference between the life of a pious layman (or clergyman) and a monk?

Fr David Moser

[D. W. Dickens]

Oh, and lest one would be tempted to say "Yes, but you're a priest" I would have to say that many laymen I know could say the same thing. So let's expand this discussion a bit and consider the question, aside from not eating meat, what is the big difference between the life of a pious layman (or clergyman) and a monk?


This is one of the scariest things I've read on this board. That is, my brain immediately turns this around and asks, why doesn't my life look like a monk's? Ack! Pthfff! (generic comic sounds of exasperation)

Clearly I'm not a pious layman by any stretch of the imagination, particularly in my worldly tastes and generous allowance for entertainment.

[Paul Cowan]

So let's expand this discussion a bit and consider the question, aside from not eating meat, what is the big difference between the life of a pious layman (or clergyman) and a monk?

Easy, I don't get to wear black everyday.

Not so easy, I will not be held to a higher standard as those taking on the vows of the schema and becoming the bride of Christ. To some much is given and from those much is demanded.

Hard, I am responsible for my own soul. Monks are responsible for the souls of the world.

Paul

[Olga]

So, now I'm curious - how is our life culturally or physically different from the monastic life. When I visit a monastery, more often than not there is little or no cultural difference and the only physical difference is a bit more simplicity. I have many friends who are monastics and their physical can cultural lives are quite similar to mine (with variations well within the cultural norms.) There are certainly spiritual differences and differences in the cares of daily life but then that is simply that we work out salvation in different arenas - but we live in the same world, we interact with the same popular culture, we say the same prayers, we have the same services. I just don't see the great gulf between monastic and lay life that seems to be implied by this statement. I have, occasionally, contemplated the possibility of entering monastic life should I outlive my wife - but it always comes back to asking "why?" since I would see little difference (other than the cool clothes) in the way that I live now (well no BBQ's but I guess I could switch to grilled tuna and salmon rather than beef and pork).

Oh, and lest one would be tempted to say "Yes, but you're a priest" I would have to say that many laymen I know could say the same thing. So let's expand this discussion a bit and consider the question, aside from not eating meat, what is the big difference between the life of a pious layman (or clergyman) and a monk?

Fr David Moser

Fr David, with the greatest respect to you and your station in life, permit me to make the following comment: I have a first cousin, the eldest son of the eldest brother of my mother's, who became a novice while still in his teens, and was tonsured before he turned twenty. I was on holiday in the "old country" some 25 years ago, and word was sent to him that his aunt, uncle by marriage, and cousin were visiting his home village. He would have been in his early 30s at the time. He was given a blessing from his abbot to return to the village where he grew up.

I saw him approach on foot from some distance away, and when he got to within range of seeing him clearly, I instantly thought: Yup. He's a monk, and it would have been utterly futile and wrong for his father or family to insist he live a life "in the world" as most of us do. He had a kind of aura about him that you simply don't see in laymen, he was truly set apart, which became obvious once I had a chance to have a conversation with him. For some years now, he has been the abbot of a good-sized monastery.

Just from this brief encounter, I realised that being a monk was much, much more than simply "wearing cool clothes", staying off meat, and living in seclusion from the world.

[Andreas Moran]

Monasteries are the 'engine rooms' of Orthodoxy.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Mary Emily, speaking from my long experience with both Slavic and Greek "flavours" of Orthodoxy, I can assure you that if any Greek or Slavic priest were to have indeed stated that "fasting is only for monastics, and not for laymen", within a VERY short time he would find himself before his bishop, being asked to explain himself. Which wouldn't be much fun.

The only possible reason I can imagine which could "justify" such a statement on fasting would be if this priest was giving specific advice to a specific parishioner whose health or age would preclude fasting.

The above is absolutely correct. Your spiritual father might tell you not to fast for medical reasons, but a modified fast is for those who are really unable to fast and not for those who are too lazy or too self indulgent to discipline themselves.

Jesus, as Herman said, was quite clear about fasting. I sometimes wish that more attention were paid to Jesus' words and less to some priests who might have their own reasons for twisting everything.


Fasting from food is perhaps easier than fasting from other things and it is quite ineffective if, at the same time, as Alice said, you continue to pamper your ego by criticizing others, by being envious of others, by thinking yourself better than others.

" in fasting one must not only obey this rule about food, but refrain from every other sin in order that, while the stomach is fasting, the tongue also may fast, refraining from slander, lies, idle talk, disparaging one's brethren, anger and every other sin committed by the tongue. One should also fast with the eyes, that is, not look at vain things, not give freedom to the eyes, not look shamelessly and without fear at anyone. The hands and feet should also be kept form any evil action."

Christ said that it is not the things that go into our mouths that pollute us but the things that come out of our mouths.
Was ever a truer word said? Jesus was accused of being a "glutton" and a "drunkard" by those who were outwardly saintly but rotten inside.

He himself fasted for 40 days and 40 nights and did not give in to temptation when the devil tempted him by offering to turn stones into bread.

Fasting is only a physical method employed in an effort to break the hold our bodies have on us. We can worship our bodies or we can worship God.


Food is a gift from God. We should appreciate every bite we eat and thank God for it before we sit down at the table. Here in Greece we do not say a blessing over the food as people in other countries do. We cross ourselves and silently thank God for the food we are about to eat. Of course, if a priest is present, he will also give a verbal blessing.

With all of the above, I just wanted to say that food was very important to Jesus. His teachings are full of references to food. How many times was He at the table enjoying food and teaching his disciples? Food is not evil - it should be used in moderation to sustain our bodies. But, it should be enjoyed. A glutton does not enjoy his food. He does not think of how this food reached his table, what it needed to grow. He does not enjoy his food in the midst of his friends - he gulps it down when he is alone. Man has managed to genetically alter certain foods, but nature - the nature God created - is still the source of our nourishment. I believe that that is why Jesus spoke so much about food - which is, as I said, a gift from God. Jesus lived in a time when people were close to the earth and understood nature. References to food in his teachings made perfect sense.

And don't forget the love shared around a dinner table by our family and our friends. Just as Jesus always ate with his friends while discussing various subjects, so we also should enjoy our meals with those we love.






Effie

Sorry for the length of the above. I was just trying to sort out my thoughts about this subject.

[Theodora E.]

Just a side note that I wanted to add: I believe that some folks who fast less strictly (aside from those who do this for medical reasons) forget that when they bring food for a parish-wide event that it should conform to the traditional fasting guidelines. However you fast in private is between you and your spiritual father, but if you bring food to church, please make sure it's fasting!

[Herman Blaydoe]

Oh, and lest one would be tempted to say "Yes, but you're a priest" I would have to say that many laymen I know could say the same thing. So let's expand this discussion a bit and consider the question, aside from not eating meat, what is the big difference between the life of a pious layman (or clergyman) and a monk?

Fr David Moser

What is the big difference between the life of an amateur athlete and a professional athlete? This bear of very little brain thinks the answers will have something in common.

Herman the Pooh

[Andreas Moran]

Amateurs and pros

The point made assumes this analogy is applicable; I'm not sure if it is. Are not living in the world, especially in marriage, and monasticism two different vocations?

[Father David Moser]

The point made assumes this analogy is applicable; I'm not sure if it is. Are not living in the world, especially in marriage, and monasticism two different vocations?

Monasticism and marriage are, I believe, two sides of the same coin. That coin is the working out of one's salvation, by self denial and obedience. In the case of the monk this is done using the tool of the monastic brotherhood and in the case of marriage this is done with the tool of one's spouse. Chastity too is much the same - whether it is the absolute chastity of monastic life or the chastity of remaining faithful to only one person and eschewing all others (I'm not sure I could say which is harder).

There is a third state which I believe is more difficult than either monasticism or marriage and that is living as a single person in the world. I know people who have accomplished this difficult struggle to their salvation and spiritual benefit, but it is quite difficult. One is bereft of the consolation of the intimate (emotional) companionship of a spouse or of the monastic brotherhood. Unlike the desert hermit who flees the world, this person lives in the midst of the world, exposed to the many temptations and distractions of it, as a hermit.

Monastic life and life in the world may be different - but they have the same focus for the Orthodox Christian - to follow Christ and to work out your salvation. One is neither more nor less difficult than the other, they are both fraught with temptation and difficulty. We may face obstacles and temptations in different manners, but we face them all the same and what is easy to bear, or even unnoticed for a monastic may be monumentally difficult for those in the world, while the reverse is true. Monastics are not "super" or "professional" Christians for what is simple for a monastic due to his environment is difficult for us in the world and what is simple for us in the world may be insurmountable for a monastic. (I'm sure that the monks and monastically inclined among us who also "live in the world" will correct me if I am in error here)

Fr David Moser

[Mary Emily Hamilton]

Effie, many thanks for that excellent and clear explanation you gave in your post above, where you said:

"Your spiritual father might tell you not to fast for medical reasons, but a modified fast is for those who are really unable to fast and not for those who are too lazy or too self indulgent to discipline themselves."

That, I think, is key. My late, great spiritual father, of eternal memory, who fell asleep in the Lord many years ago, told us all those very same things!

(I was not advocating self-direction on fasting or mitigation of fasting for the lazy, gluttonous or self-important, but my posts were probably not very clear. What I was worried about were the modernist influences that lead people to take over their own spiritual direction. There's much confusion currently among my old friends and even present-day acquaintances, and I was seeking guidance in how to pray for them, since I don't feel qualified or worthy to advise them. I guess that created a bit of a tangent; I'm very sorry, I didn't mean to do such a thing.)

Please be sure that I do agree with you.

Mary Emily

[Andreas Moran]

I respectfully agree with the main thrust of Fr David's assessment. By different vocations I nevertheless had in mind that each way is to the same destination: salvation, as Fr David says. I particularly identify with the different difficulties those in the world (isn't there a single word for us?) and monastics face. We in the world cannot avoid the energy-draining demands of just getting by: doing a job, coping with the paperwork of running a home, taking many decisions, being responsible for every aspect of one's life and sometimes for the lives of others, too. We must somehow accommodate in all this our fasting and other observances. The monastic in a monastery has clearly-defined duties on which he can concentrate, and time for worship, prayer and so forth is built into his regime. He is unlikely to be involved in money matters, paying bills, shopping, cooking, cleaning, etc, etc, etc. On the other hand, the spiritual demands upon him must be very considerable, beginning with the lack of close companionship which helps us in the world (oh, please somebody find a single word!) get by.

(What about 'mondastics'??)

[Andreas Moran]

I just recalled the story of St Anthony and the cobbler in Alexandria. The latter's quiet and simple self-condemnation as he went about his business humbled the great monastic. (Mind, I've always thought that if he gave a third of his income to the church and a third to the poor and could live on the third he kept for his own use, he was charging his customers too much!)

[Herman Blaydoe]

I respectfully agree with the main thrust of Fr David's assessment. By different vocations I nevertheless had in mind that each way is to the same destination: salvation, as Fr David says. I particularly identify with the different difficulties those in the world (isn't there a single word for us?) and monastics face. We in the world cannot avoid the energy-draining demands of just getting by: doing a job, coping with the paperwork of running a home, taking many decisions, being responsible for every aspect of one's life and sometimes for the lives of others, too. We must somehow accommodate in all this our fasting and other observances. The monastic in a monastery has clearly-defined duties on which he can concentrate, and time for worship, prayer and so forth is built into his regime. He is unlikely to be involved in money matters, paying bills, shopping, cooking, cleaning, etc, etc, etc. On the other hand, the spiritual demands upon him must be very considerable, beginning with the lack of close companionship which helps us in the world (oh, please somebody find a single word!) get by.

(What about 'mondastics'??)

Certainly no analogy is 100%, but how is this different from the the vocations of the amateur and the professional? I know that the Holy Apostle Paul was very fond of athletic comparisons. The professional is more focussed on his vocation, while the amateur must balance the effort put forth for his vocation with his work and his family. The pro is more focussed, even as the monastic is more focussed. The professional's efforts are more demanding, even as the efforts of the monastic tend to be more severe. The professional has his coach and his team mates in a focussed environment even as the monastic has his abbot and his fellow monastics in a focussed environment. This makes it easier to be a "pro" but much effort is still necessary. The efforts of the amateur or layperson are somewhat less focussed, depending on their specific situation, which requires effort of another sort to maintain a proper focus and balance in their life.

Is David Becham the same as a monastic? Of course not! He competes for an earthly crown and we compete for a heavenly crown. But his degree of focus on his vocation is more demanding than that of the weekend warrior. We are not all called to be David Becham, we are not all called to be monastics, but we are all called to some level of ascetic endeavor, to carry our crosses takes effort, and the more effort you put into something, the more results you get out of it. Couch potatoes may relish their sports TV, but they don't get much out of it because they don't invest much in it. Pew potatoes may like their pretty music and "spirituality", but they don't get much out of it if they don't invest much in it. This, I suspect is the true meaning behind our Lord's parable of the "talents". The more you invest and what you invest in, determines what you get in return, riches on earth or riches in Heaven. The level of investment of monastics is rather apparent, the level of investment of non-monastics not so easy to determine.

We are all called to some degree of effort, the biggest differentiator might be how much effort our circumstance allows and how much effort we are willing to commit. Tell me again how this analogy is inappropriate? This bear of little brain is having trouble comprehending.

Herman the Pooh

[Andreas Moran]

I think it seemed to me that 'mondastics' are not amateurs, bearing in mind that word can have a pejorative ring to it.


We are all called to some degree of effort, the biggest differentiator might be how much effort our circumstance allows

I entirely agree.


and how much effort we are willing to commit

Speaking for myself, of course, not enough. Nothing but a dabbler.

[Theodora E.]

There is a third state which I believe is more difficult than either monasticism or marriage and that is living as a single person in the world. I know people who have accomplished this difficult struggle to their salvation and spiritual benefit, but it is quite difficult. One is bereft of the consolation of the intimate (emotional) companionship of a spouse or of the monastic brotherhood. Unlike the desert hermit who flees the world, this person lives in the midst of the world, exposed to the many temptations and distractions of it, as a hermit.



You have no idea how difficult.

Theodora still single at 40 and not by choice

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

You have no idea how difficult.

Theodora still single at 40 and not by choice

Asking forgiveness, I feel at this point, with a compassionate statement made by Fr. David, we yet lose the original purpose of the thread: "Is fasting only for monastics?". We have journeyed around the historical compass from the time of Christ (Who was accused of not fasting; yet clearly said when He departed His disciples would), to the various ups and downs of Orthodox Christianity as it has been lived in Traditional Countries/Monasteries to the present turmoil of simply being steadfast in believing in Jesus Christ of Nazareth as True God and True Man, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Did not our Lord say when He returns will he find faith on earth?

The compassionate statement of Fr. David is that which refers to the single person working out their salvation in the world. However, dear Father, please forgive my audacity: a monk who seeks any 'human consolation' in a monastery will never find the consolation and peace that comes only from Christ. Hermits do not live alone - they have lots of company: the Devil and all his little friends!

We live in truly terrible times - mass apostasy; well, let me cease and simply quote yet once again from my dear departed Elder Sophrony:

"The word accidie means etymologically, 'lack of care', i.e. about one's salvation. With few exceptions, all humanity is now living in the state of accidie. People have become indifferent about their salvation. They do not seek divine life. They confine themselves to forms of life which appertain to the flesh, to everyday needs, to the passions of this world, to mundane activities. God, though, created us out of nothing, in the image of the Absolute and after His likeness. If this revelation is true, then the absence of concern for salvation is nothing else than the death of the human person." - Archmandrite Sophrony (Sakharov) +1993.

The true and essential difference between the married state and the monastic life is the sacrament (as St. Silouan loved to term it) of Obedience. Herein, co-joined with the fulness of the life of the Orthodox Church: all the freely given Sacraments - and even a person living in the world, by Grace, can find this sacred Obedience.

Then from this flows the true vocation of the Monastic:

"There are people who say that monks ought to be of some use in the world, and not eat bread they have not toiled for; but we have to understand the nature of a monk's service and the way in which he has to help the world.

A monk is someone who prays for the whole world, who weeps for the whole world; and in this lies his main work."

-St. Silouan the Athonite +1938

[Alice]

Dear Father Seraphim,

Evloyeite!


If this revelation is true, then the absence of concern for salvation is nothing else than the death of the human person." - Archmandrite Sophrony (Sakharov) +1993.


This is such a profound statement. Thank you for sharing it.

At times, this anchor; this magnet which pulls us towards the world and its comfort and values is so strong...who can deny this?

The Christian layperson has to battle this constantly...the hardest thing to maintain is spiritually healthy balance between the world and its enticements as well as its responsibilities which include one's career, one's financial survival, one's spouse, one's children and their education, survival and future, etc.,, and at the same time, working towards our salvation.

Humbly and unworthily in Christ,
Alice

[Father David Moser]

Another "chance" find today.


"You greatly delude yourself and err, if you think that one thing is demanded from the layman and another from the monk...what has turned the world upside down is that we think only the monk must live rigorously, while the rest are allowed to live a life of indolence" St. John Chrysostom.

Fr David Moser

[Alice]

Dear Father David,

Bless.

I don't know if you know this, but that was on page one of this thread...but thank you for bringing it to our attention again. I think that was an absolutely profound and awesome quote of the great saint John Chrysostom and one we should all save to our memory....

Respectfully,
In Christ,
Alice

[Vasiliki D.]

I think many people fail to recall or remember the original conditions that existed when monasteries and early Christian life were developing in the church.

If we spent time looking into the historical development of monasticism (this is hard I guess since it is a highly specialised field of academic research) I believe that we will find that exact point that Father David Moser has been trying to share with us all along.

A monastic vocation versus a lay person's vocation are exactly identical apart from the arena conditions chosen ...

However, what has not been highlighted that when these two arenas were finding their feet and being defined the "lay Christian" lived very much like a "monastic" ie. fasting, daily services, frequent communion etc etc ...

The difference is that in today's Socially Engineered community WE have dropped our Orthodox Christian living standards and because we do not remember how we used to live we assume that it is only monastics that do that sort of stuff ....

and that is a mistake on our behalf. We have simply dropped the bar/standards by which we live ... we make excuses for our sloppy living ... oh, it would be OK if I [insert the blank] but the old Christians ..the uneducated Christians ... may not have known much but they did not drop the bar because other cultures told them to. They martyred to keep the faith exactly as it should be and would work in very close proximity with the monastics in their villages ...

[Anthony A.]

Another "chance" find today.



Fr David Moser
Fr. Moser, Would you please share the source of the exact message of our dear brother in Christ, Saint John? I would love to know and read the whole context and message. Thanks kindly.

humbly,
Anthony

[Isaac Crabtree]

Fasting does have different approaches. While it's the very best I can do to abstain for any significant period from meat, dairy, wine and olive oil, I certainly violate the absolute ideals of the fast-- to experience hunger, to eat only once (or not at all) on a fasting day, to have food prepared from a single ingredient or at least very simply, and to give all the money we save on simple food to the poor. We who have mastered "lenten" chocolate cake and cajun spiced shrimp kebabs should remind ourselves not to be so self-satisfied that we have are bastions of akriveia and not be so harsh on priests who emphasize "meat and dairy" to their parishioners. Their own priests who do not mention the above principles are also "watering down" the fast.

[Paul Cowan]

I must constantly remind myself not to feast during the fast and especially not to be a glutton of tofu or lentels. What's the use of fasting if one does not follow the spirit of the fast as well as the rules of the fast?

Paul

That was a hypothetical question. Of course we should do all we can in the spirit of the fast to fulfill the rule of the fast. We (I) are of course weak in our (my) constitutions.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Fasting is definitely not about certain foods that we avoid during these periods.

We don't eat meat but we eat 2 kilos of lobster. We don't drink milk but we gossip about someone we envy. We don't include olive oil in our food but we lust over a good looking man (or woman).

Fasting is one of the methods we use to control our appetites in order to cleanse ourselves and be in a better position to continue on our road to enosis with God.

I have to be honest here and say that I am not good at fasting. One of my sins is gluttony. I don't know why although it is easy to excuse myself by saying that something in my childhood is probably behind it - and even as I say this I know that I am only pampering my ego once again and not admitting that I am lazy and self loving.

We are now told that research has shown that Orthodox nuns have lower levels of cholestrol and several other health advantages because they fast. Our health, however, should not be used to entice us to fast. The reason we fast is religious.

Fasting is just as important to the laity as it is to nuns and monks. There are no "classes" in the Orthodox religion.

Some quotes on fasting that I copied from an Orthodox site.

QUOTES ON FASTING


"If there is a needy or a poor among them; they fast two or three days and send him the food which they would have prepared for themselves" (Aristides writing in defense of the Christians to Emperor Adrianos, 128 A.D.).

It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause any man to stumble (Romans 14:21)

Fasting then, and lying on the bare ground, and keeping virginity, and a self-denying life, these things bring their advantage to the persons themselves who do them; but those that pass from ourselves to our neighbors are almsgiving, teaching, charity. Hear then Paul in this matter also saying, Though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, I am nothing profiled (St. John Chrysostom)

But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings; by purity, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit, by sincere love, by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, by honor and dishonor, by evil report and good report; as deceivers, and yet true; as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold we live; as chastened, and yet not killed; as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet posessing all things. (2 Corinthians 6:4 10)

"The body which is burdened with meat is afflicted with diseases. A moderate way of living makes the body healthier and stronger and cuts off the root of evil. The stream of meat meals darkens the light of the spirit. One can hardly have virtue if one enjoys meat meals and feasts." (St Basil the Great)

"The debauchery in meat meals is an infamous injustice." (St. Gregory of Nazianzen)

Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, 'Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. (Acts 13:1 3)

"We do not fast because we think there is anything in itself unclean about the act of eating and drinking. Food and drink are, on the contrary, Gods gift, from which we are to partake with enjoyment and gratitude. We fast, not because we despise the divine gift, but so as to make ourselves aware that it is indeed a gift so as to purify our eating and drinking, and to make them, no longer a concession to greed, but a sacrament and means of communion with the Giver. Understood in this way, ascetic fasting is directed not against the body but against the flesh. Its aim is not destructively to weaken the body, but creatively to render the body more spiritual." (Bishop Kallistos Ware)

Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward."

But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. (Matthew 6: 16 18)

"Do you fast? Give me proof of it by your works. If you see a poor man, take pity on him. If you see a friend being honored, do not envy him. Do not let only your mouth fast, but also the eye, and the ear, and let the feet, and the hands, and all the members of our bodies. Let the hands fast, by being free of avarice. Let t feet fast, by ceasing to run after sin. Let the eyes fast, by disciplining them not to glare at what is sinful...Let the ear fast...by not listening to evil talk or gossip...Let the mouth fast from foul words and unjust criticism. For what good is it if we abstain from meat and fish, but bite and devour our brothers?" (St. John the Chrysostom)

The disciples of John and of the Pharisees were fasting. Then they came and said to Him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast? And Jesus said to them, Can the friends of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them they cannot fast. But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast in those days. (Mark 2:18 20)

The benefits of fasting or abstinence are enormous. This does not have anything to do with the reasons many today use the discipline of fasting. For in our day we see individuals fasting as a political tool or other type of protest, a way of losing extra pounds, or even as a desire to die. Christian fasting is blessed by God Himself for it is the message of the believer to God that he de-sires the eternal blessings that are to come rather than the finite blessings of this life. Its benefits include increased spiritual strength, true obedience to God and total patience with one's fellow man. It assists the believer to take control of his lower appetites that involve the physical senses. The believer becomes mentally alert and sensitive to what is happening all around him. Moreover his understanding of life is also expanded. (Bishop Isaiah of Denver)

"...The teaching of these words is this. Bless those who curse you, and pray for your enemies: fast for those who persecute you...Do not let your fasts be with the hypocrites. They fast on Monday and Thursday; but you will fast on Wednesday and Friday." (The Didache, C. 90 - 150 A.D.)

"On the day of the fast, eat only bread and water and, working out the cost of the food you would have consumed, give a corresponding sum to a widow, an orphan, a needy person...Observe these things with your children and all your household; thus you will be happy." (Shepherd of Hermas, C. 140 - 150 A.D.)

"Likewise, in regard to days of fast, many do not think they should be present at the sacrificial prayers, because their fast would be broken if they were to receive the Body of the Lord...Will not your fast be more solemn if, in addition, you have stood at God's altar?" (Tertullian, The Demurrer Against the Heretics, Prayer, C. 200 - 206 A.D.)

"Those who do not believe in the afterlife indulge in food and drink." (St. Ambrose of Milan, +397 A.D., Ep. 63, 17)

"If you wish to be perfect, it is better to fatten the soul than the body." (St. Jerome, +420 A.D., Ep. 54, 105)

"The abstinence of him who fasts becomes the nourishment of the poor." (St. Leo I, Sermon 13, 1, Ante 461 A.D.)

"Yet even now, says the Lord, return to me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning." (Joel 2, 12)

"The sisters of fasting are five: 1) prayer, 2) charity, 3) humility, 4) abstinence, 5) love. Fasting without prayer is simply a medical diet, a healthy diet, a change of eating habits. Fasting without charity is selfishness and co-worker with.... greed. Fasting without humility is food for the monster of vanity. Fasting without abstinence is simply mockery. Fasting without love can become cannibalism!" (The Orthodox Messenger, Mar/April 1998, Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia)

Effie