Asser's translation

[David Hawthorne]

Does anyone happen to know of the status of Michael Asser's LXX translation into traditional English to be published by CTOS? When is it to be published?

[Christophoros]

I haven't heard anything except it was supposed to be published late last year...

[Andreas Moran]

Does anyone happen to know of the status of Michael Asser's LXX translation into traditional English to be published by CTOS? When is it to be published?

It has been published for a while now. I have a copy. It's not precisely as Michael intended - the publisher's editor interfered a little. It's a handsomely-produced book, though the colours of the icon illustrations are harsh.

The original can be found here

www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/pdf/kjvsept.pdf

[David Hawthorne]

It has been published for a while now. I have a copy. It's not precisely as Michael intended - the publisher's editor interfered a little. It's a handsomely-produced book, though the colours of the icon illustrations are harsh.

The original can be found here

www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/pdf/kjvsept.pdf (http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/pdf/kjvsept.pdf)

Actually, I knew the Psalter was out but in the preface of that book he said he would be doing the whole OT. I saw something on Orthodox England which said this work would be in six volumes, beginning with the Pentateuch which was to have been published late 2008 and the rest of the volumes appearing throughout 2009. I would love to get these volumes as they are available and I am hoping the publication schedule doesn't become another waiting period like the OSB was. The Psalter alone does look tempting, though...........

[Christophoros]

It has been published for a while now. I have a copy. It's not precisely as Michael intended - the publisher's editor interfered a little. It's a handsomely-produced book, though the colours of the icon illustrations are harsh.

The original can be found here

www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/pdf/kjvsept.pdf

I actually prefer Mr. Asser's original translation to the one that was eventually published. The CTOS edition appears to be an amalgamation of Asser's work and the translations found in the service books of St. Gregory Palamas Monastery in Etna, CA.

[Andreas Moran]

I actually prefer Mr. Asser's original translation to the one that was eventually published.

I also prefer the original.

[Ryan]

Could someone please provide examples of how the CTOS edition altered Asser's translation? I'm curious.

[Andreas Moran]

Ryan: Could someone please provide examples of how the CTOS edition altered Asser's translation? I'm curious.

I haven't scanned the whole lot but at the outset, Michael Asser has 'ungodly' in psalm 1 and the editor changed it to 'impious'! Why? Who knows! But the editor seems not to appreciate the euphony and cadence of the KJV.

[Nathaniel Woon]

Does anyone happen to know of the status of Michael Asser's LXX translation into traditional English to be published by CTOS? When is it to be published?

Dear Rdr David,

This was posted recently on the Orthodox England site -
http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/old_test.htm
The Liturgical Translation of the Orthodox Old Testament Awaits Publication
As readers will know, since 2005 a translation of the Psalter has been available on the Orthodox England website.

The particularity of this translation is that it was made from the Septuagint, as received by the Orthodox Church, and translated into liturgical English, as established by the King James Bible. We thus called it the ‘King James Septuagint’ Psalter, since it follows the pattern of Orthodox liturgical English set by the brilliant translation of the Lenten Triodion by the then Archim. Kallistos Ware and Mother Mary over thirty years ago. In 2008 a version of this translation was published by CTOS in California.

We have now heard that the entire text of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, translated into liturgical English on the same principles as the Psalter from the text published by Apostoliki Diakonia of the Greek Orthodox Church, is completed. It had been expected that the complete Septuagint, like the Psalter, would be published by CTOS, but in the event this initiative fell through. However, we hope that the ‘King James Septuagint’ may still be published in full, perhaps in the USA, in the next year or two. Meanwhile, for readers’ interest we here publish, with permission, the translation of the Book of Genesis.
Fr Andrew
1. See: http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/pdf/kjvsept.pdf

[Ryan]

Thanks Nathaniel for this news. I know the original plan was to publish it in several volumes... I wonder if they're still considering this. I also wonder how much the KJV's New Testament would need to be changed to be "Orthodox." I'm guessing not much... it would be wonderful to have a complete Orthodox KJV.

[Nathaniel Woon]

Dear Ryan,

I think the idea is to have it in one volume but it will very much depend on the publisher I think. As there are no details on that yet, let us keep Michael Asser and the translation project in prayer.

[David Hawthorne]

Dear Rdr David,

This was posted recently on the Orthodox England site -
http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/old_test.htm
The Liturgical Translation of the Orthodox Old Testament Awaits Publication
As readers will know, since 2005 a translation of the Psalter has been available on the Orthodox England website.

The particularity of this translation is that it was made from the Septuagint, as received by the Orthodox Church, and translated into liturgical English, as established by the King James Bible. We thus called it the ‘King James Septuagint’ Psalter, since it follows the pattern of Orthodox liturgical English set by the brilliant translation of the Lenten Triodion by the then Archim. Kallistos Ware and Mother Mary over thirty years ago. In 2008 a version of this translation was published by CTOS in California.

We have now heard that the entire text of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, translated into liturgical English on the same principles as the Psalter from the text published by Apostoliki Diakonia of the Greek Orthodox Church, is completed. It had been expected that the complete Septuagint, like the Psalter, would be published by CTOS, but in the event this initiative fell through. However, we hope that the ‘King James Septuagint’ may still be published in full, perhaps in the USA, in the next year or two. Meanwhile, for readers’ interest we here publish, with permission, the translation of the Book of Genesis.
Fr Andrew
1. See: http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/pdf/kjvsept.pdf

Thank you so much for letting me know- I am very much looking forward to this! What a blessing!

[Michael Asser]

Those members of the Monachos Discussion Community who have expressed interest in my translation work may be interested to know that I have begun to post the books of my 'King James Septuagint' translation on the Orthodox England website, http://orthodoxengland.org.uk in order to ascertain if they meet any need. Genesis to Deuteronomy are already posted, with Joshua, Judges, Ruth and 1 and 2 Kingdoms on the way. This is of course very much 'work in progress' and I am sure will need revision in the light of comments received.

Michael Asser

[Ryan Close]

Is your version of the Psalter on the orthodoxengland site the one you prefer over the CTOS version? Your version seems to be closer to HTM than to Coverdale. David James made a Russian Orthodox Psalter based on Coverdale. Here is a comparison I made:

HTM: Blessed is the man that hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly,
ASR: Blessed is the man that hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly,
COV: Blessed is the man that hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly,

nor stood in the way of sinners, nor sat in the seat of the pestilent.
nor stood in the way of sinners, nor sat in the seat of the pestilent.
nor stood in the way of sinners, and hath not sat in the seat of the scornful.

But his will is rather in the law of the Lord,
But his will is in the law of the Lord,
But his delight is in the law of the Lord;

and in His law will he meditate day and night.
and in his law shall he meditate day and night.
and in his law will he exercise himself day and night.

[Michael Asser]

Dear Ryan,

The CTOS version of my Psalter was a minor revision to achieve what the editors felt was a more accurate reflection of the original Greek text than mine. I took the Psalter of the King James Bible rather than Coverdale as my base and altered it where it differed from the Greek; but I tried always to keep as close as possible to King James. Coverdale's 1549 Prayer Book Psalter from the Hebrew is incomparable in its poetry, but very free as a translation, and I felt that King James was 'straighter' as a base to work from. Even Coverdale's 1540 Latin-English diglot Psalter, which is much closer to the Latin Vulgate and therefore the LXX than his 1549 Psalter, is still very idiosyncratic. Unfortunately there is as yet no printed edition of this diglot. I'm afraid I have not seen David James' 'Coverdale' Russian Orthodox Psalter.

[David Hawthorne]

Hello, Michael-

I have longed to have a full Orthodox Bible in traditional English based upon the LXX and Byzantine texts. What is the approximate completed status of your work and is there a general idea of when it will be available in print?

David

[Michael Asser]

Dear David,

I completed my 'King James' version of the Septuagint based on the Apostoliki Diakonia Greek text a year ago. Having established that the Crown Copyright Office had no objection to my publishing an adaptation of the King James OT in this country, I began to post it on the Orthodox England website in order to test critical reaction, identify errors and begin to make final corrections. But a problem may arise when I come to post the deuterocanonical books, which are King James virtually unchanged, and for which I shall most certainly need copyright permission, which may or may not be granted. I had hoped to have found a US publisher by now, but have had no success to date. That is one reason why I'm putting my text out on the Web: to see if it meets a need.

It was never my intention to produce a King James New Testament; but a few months ago I began to work on St Matthew's Gospel.

Michael

[David Hawthorne]

I am looking forward to reading more of your translation as it comes out. Although I first developed a love for reading Scripture in High School with the modern language NIV, as an adult I have always preferred the richness and beauty of more traditional English. I believe your work does serve a definite need; I know several Orthodox Christians who have also expressed a preference for a "Thee/Thou" translation over a "You/Who!" Bible. I take it from your post that the same copyright restrictions do not apply to the KJV in the U.S.?

[Ryan Close]

The sample of the Psalter published by the CTOS seems to have only changed the first lines of a Psalm. And these are used in Antiphons and Prokeminons. Someone told me they changed it to make it closer to their own service books. And the way they changed it makes it more clunky and wordy.

What manuscript tradition are you translating the New Testament from? The Byzantine Majority Text?

[Michael Asser]

In reply to Reader David, the King James Bible is I believe free of copyright everywhere (including the USA) except here in the United Kingdom.
In reply to Ryan, I am translating Matthew's Gospel from the 1904 Patriarchal Text of the New Testament.

[Ryan Close]

Here is a blog post about David James's Psalter: http://gavriil.typepad.com/of-information-and-belief/2009/09/psalter.html
See this monachos discussion to see where Mr James compares his psalter to yours, especially post 63: http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=79544
Fr Patrick B. O’Grady also has a traditional language Psalter in the works: http://fatherpatrick.wordpress.com/psalm-workshop/

All three of you have said you were dissatisfied with the HTM translation. I made the following comparison chart of seven translations of Psalm 50 to see what you meant. The first is the Holy Transfiguration Monastery Psalter, the next three are contemporary Orthodox translation projects and the last three are historic translation. As you will see there is much overlap. Sometimes the HTM is closer to the KJV. Sometimes the Asser agrees with the HTM while James agrees with the Coverdale or KJV and vice-versa. This chart makes the most amount of sense if copied into note pad or displayed using a mono-spaced font like courier, a font that gives each character, including spaces, the same width. If you do that then corresponding words line up vertically allowing better comparison:

HTM: Holy Transfiguration Monastary
ASR: Michael Asser
JAM: James David
PAT: Fr Patrick B. O’Grady
COV: Coverdal (BCP
KJV: King James Version
DOU: Douey Rehims

PSALM 50.

HTM: Have mercy on me, O God, according to Thy great mercy;
ASR: Have mercy upon me, O God, according to Thy great mercy;
JAM: Have mercy upon me, O God, after Thy great mercy,
PAT: Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy great mercy;
COV: Have mercy upon me, O God, after thy great goodness;
KJV: Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness:
DOU: Have mercy on me, O God, according to thy great mercy.

HTM: and according to the multitude of Thy compassions blot out my transgression.
ASR: and according to the multitude of Thy tender mercies blot out my transgression.
JAM: and according to the multitude of Thy compassions blot out my transgression.
PAT: and according to the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgression.
COV: according to the multitude of thy mercies do away mine offences.
KJV: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
DOU: And according to the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my iniquity.

HTM: Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
ASR: Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
JAM: Wash me thoroughly from my wickedness, and cleanse me from my sin.
PAT: Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
COV: Wash me thoroughly from my wickedness, and cleanse me from my sin.
KJV: Wash me th roughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
DOU: Wash me yet more from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

HTM: For I know mine iniquity, and my sin is ever before me.
ASR: For I acknowledge my transgression, and my sin is ever before me.
JAM: For I know my transgression, and my sin is ever before me.
PAT: For I acknowledge mine iniquity, and my sin is ever before me.
COV: For I acknowledge my faults, and my sin is ever before me.
KJV: For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
DOU: For I know my iniquity, and my sin is always before me.

HTM: Against Thee only have I sinned and done this evil before Thee,
ASR: Against Thee only have I sinned, and done this evil in Thy sight;
JAM: Against Thee only have I sinned, and done evil before Thee,
PAT: Against thee only have I sinned and done this evil in thy sight,
COV: Against thee only have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight,
KJV: Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight:
DOU: To thee only have I sinned, and have done evil before thee:

HTM: that Thou mightest be justified in Thy words, and prevail when Thou art judged.
ASR: that Thou mightest be justified in Thy sayings, and overcome when Thou art judged.
JAM: that Thou mightest be justified in Thy words, and prevail when Thou art judged.
PAT: that thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and prevail when thou dost judge.
COV: that thou mightest be justified in thy saying, and clear when thou shalt judge.
KJV: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
DOU: that thou mayst be justified in thy words and mayst overcome when thou art judged.

HTM: For behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother bear me.
ASR: For behold, I was conceived in iniquity, and in sins did my mother bear me.
JAM: For behold, I was conceived in wickedness, and in sins did my mother bear me.
PAT: For behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother get me.
COV: Behold, I was shapen in wickedness, and in sin hath my mother conceived me.
KJV: Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
DOU: For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

HTM: For behold, Thou hast loved truth; the hidden and secret things of Thy wisdom hast Thou made manifest unto me.
ASR: For behold, Thou hast loved truth; the hidden and secret things of Thy wisdom hast Thou revealed to me.
JAM: For behold, Thou hast loved truth; the hidden and secret things of Thy wisdom hast Thou revealed unto me.
PAT: But behold, thou lovest truth; the hidden and secret things of thy wisdom hast thou made manifest unto me.
COV: But lo, thou requirest truth in the inward parts, and shalt make me to understand wisdom secretly.
KJV: Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
DOU: For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.

HTM: Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be made clean; Thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow.
ASR: Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed; Thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow.
JAM: Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be made clean; Thou shalt wash me, and I shall become whiter than snow.
PAT: Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; thou shalt wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
COV: Thou shalt purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; thou shalt wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
KJV: Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
DOU: Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed: thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow.

HTM: Thou shalt make me to hear joy and gladness; the bones that be humbled, they shall rejoice.
ASR: Thou shalt make me to hear joy and gladness; the bones that have been humbled shall rejoice.
JAM: Thou shalt give joy and gladness to my hearing; the bones that have been humbled will rejoice.
PAT: Thou shalt make me to hear of joy and gladness, that the bones which thou hast humbled may rejoice.
COV: Thou shalt make me hear of joy and gladness, that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
KJV: Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
DOU: To my hearing thou shalt give joy and gladness: and the bones that have been humbled shall rejoice.

HTM: Turn Thy face away from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
ASR: Turn away Thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
JAM: Turn Thy face from my sins, and blot out all my misdeeds.
PAT: Turn thy face away from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
COV: Turn thy face from my sins, and put out all my misdeeds.
KJV: Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
DOU: Turn away thy face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities.

HTM: Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.
ASR: Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.
JAM: Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.
PAT: Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.
COV: Make me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.
KJV: Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
DOU: Create a clean heart in me, O God: and renew a right spirit within my bowels.

HTM: Cast me not away from Thy presence, and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.
ASR: Cast me not away from Thy presence, and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.
JAM: Cast me not away from Thy presence, and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.
PAT: Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy holy spirit from me.
COV: Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy holy Spirit from me.
KJV: Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
DOU: Cast me not away from thy face; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

HTM: Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation, and with Thy governing Spirit establish me.
ASR: Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation, and establish me with Thy governing Spirit.
JAM: O give me the joy of Thy salvation, and stablish me with Thy governing Spirit.
PAT: Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, and with thy governing spirit establish me.
COV: O give me the comfort of thy help again, and stablish me with thy free Spirit.
KJV: Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
DOU: Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, and strengthen me with a perfect spirit.

HTM: I shall teach transgressors Thy ways, and the ungodly shall turn back unto Thee.
ASR: I will teach transgressors Thy ways, and the ungodly shall turn again to Thee.
JAM: Then shall I teach Thy ways unto the wicked, and the ungodly shall be converted unto Thee.
PAT: Then shall I teach transgressors thy ways, and the ungodly shall be converted unto thee.
COV: Then shall I teach thy ways unto the wicked, and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
KJV: Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
DOU: I will teach the unjust thy ways: and the wicked shall be converted to thee.

HTM: Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, Thou God of my salvation; my tongue shall rejoice in Thy righteousness.
ASR: Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, Thou God of my salvation; my tongue shall rejoice in Thy righteousness.
JAM: Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation, and my tongue shall rejoice in Thy righteousness.
PAT: Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation; my tongue shall sing of thy righteousness.
COV: Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, thou that art the God of my health; and my tongue shall sing of thy righteousness.
KJV: Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
DOU: Deliver me from blood, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall extol thy justice.

HTM: O Lord, Thou shalt open my lips, and my mouth shall declare Thy praise.
ASR: O Lord, Thou shalt open my lips, and my mouth shall show forth Thy praise.
JAM: O Lord, Thou shalt open my lips, and my mouth shall declare Thy praise.
PAT: O Lord, thou shalt open my lips, and my mouth shall show forth thy praise.
COV: Thou shalt open my lips, O Lord, and my mouth shall show thy praise.
KJV: O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
DOU: O Lord, thou wilt open my lips: and my mouth shall declare thy praise.

HTM: For if Thou hadst desired sacrifice, I had given it;
ASR: For hadst Thou desired sacrifice, I would have given it;
JAM: For if Thou hadst desired sacrifice, I would have given it;
PAT: For if thou hadst desired sacrifice, I had given it:
COV: For thou desirest no sacrifice, else would I give it thee;
KJV: For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it:
DOU: For if thou hadst desired sacrifice, I would indeed have given it:

HTM: with whole-burnt offerings Thou shalt not be pleased.
ASR: thou wilt not delight in whole burnt offerings.
JAM: but Thou delightest not in burnt offerings.
PAT: but thou delightest not in burnt-offerings.
COV: but thou delightest not in burnt-offerings.
KJV: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
DOU: with burnt offerings thou wilt not be delighted.

HTM: A sacrifice unto God is a broken spirit; a heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise.
ASR: A sacrifice to God is a broken spirit; a broken and humbled heart God will not despise.
JAM: The sacrifice unto God is a contrite spirit; a contrite and humble heart God shall not despise.
PAT: A sacrifice unto God is a troubled spirit; a heart that is troubled and humbled God will not despise.
COV: The sacrifice of God is a troubled spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, shalt thou not despise.
KJV: The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
DOU: A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit: a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

HTM: Do good, O Lord, in Thy good pleasure unto Sion, and let the walls of Jerusalem be builded.
ASR: Do good, O Lord, in Thy good pleasure unto Sion, and let the walls of Jerusalem be builded.
JAM: O Lord, be favorable in Thy good will unto Zion, and let the walls of Jerusalem be builded up.
PAT: Do good, O Lord, in thy good pleasure unto Zion, and let the walls of Jerusalem be built.
COV: O be favourable and gracious unto Sion; build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
KJV: Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
DOU: Deal favourably, O Lord, in thy good will with Sion; that the walls of Jerusalem may be built up.

HTM: Then shalt Thou be pleased with a sacrifice of righteousness, with oblation and whole-burnt offerings.
ASR: Then shalt Thou be pleased with a sacrifice of righteousness, oblation and whole burnt offerings.
JAM: Then shalt Thou be pleased with the sacrifice of righteousness, with oblation and whole-burnt offerings;
PAT: Then shalt thou be pleased with a sacrifice of righteousness, with oblation and whole-burnt offerings.
COV: Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifice of righteousness, with the burnt-offerings and oblations;
KJV: Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering:
DOU: Then shalt thou accept the sacrifice of justice, oblations and whole burnt offerings:

HTM: Then shall they offer bullocks upon Thine altar.
ASR: Then shall they offer bullocks upon Thine altar.
JAM: then shall they offer young bullocks upon Thine altar.
PAT: Then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
COV: then shall they offer young bullocks upon thine altar.
KJV: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
DOU: then shall they lay calves upon thy altar.


It is very clear that these different translations are only slight modifications or revisions of one another. Often times the Orthodox recentions are closer to themselves than to their historical prototypes. The first conclusion I have come to in this comparison is that HTM psalter agrees in most places with Fr O’Grady, James, and Asser.

Secondly, some differences are merely differences in spelling (thoroughly vs. throughly, mine vs. my, unto vs. to) and could be smoothed out relatively easily.

Thirdly, there are some stylistic differences having to do with grammar that I do not fully understand. For example:
made clean vs. cleansed
Thou shalt wash me vs. wash me
art judged vs. shalt judge vs. judgest
I had given it vs. I would have given it
Thou hast loved vs. thou lovest

I feel that instead of duplicating your respective efforts, it would be beneficial to combine your talents and produce a single text. You could work over the internet or meet in person and combine your recentions into a single translation with footnoted variant readings. My personal opinion is that if there is to be two widely used Orthodox Psalters using traditional, hieratic, liturgical English, they should be as different as possible so that each is differentiated with little overlap. I was even thinking that perhaps the Russian could be based on the Coverdale and the Greek could be based on the KJV / Douey Rehims. I guess I am just selfish, not wanting to have to choose between your three translations.

[Ryan Close]

I just found out that all the spaces were removed. If you want the original comparison file with the spaces, which helps line up all the similar words let me know. I can email it.

[Ryan Close]

I am looking forward to reading more of your translation as it comes out. Although I first developed a love for reading Scripture in High School with the modern language NIV, as an adult I have always preferred the richness and beauty of more traditional English. I believe your work does serve a definite need; I know several Orthodox Christians who have also expressed a preference for a "Thee/Thou" translation over a "You/Who!" Bible. I take it from your post that the same copyright restrictions do not apply to the KJV in the U.S.?

I find that people who love the Traditional Liturgical English are willing to make a compromise, changing the Thee/Thou to You/Who, lovest to loved or have loved or whatever as long as the rest of the language isn't dumbed down. Keep the poetic and hieratic language. Don't translate heaven as sky or chalice as cup. This is some of the beauty of the NKJV. Thou a more robustly Orthodox and Liturgical recension is needed that constantly connects readers to the references they hear in the Liturgy and makes it easy to connect what is being read to the Orthodox Theology. For instance:

Coverdale: Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, thou that art the God of my health; and my tongue shall sing of thy righteousness.

Liturgical: Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, you who are the God of my health; and my tongue shall sing of your righteousness.

Dumb: Free me from guilt, God, the God of health, and my mouth will sing of your goodness.

[Ryan]

I don't think removing 'thou' and 'thee', and changing conjugations here and there, will make a difference. I think the main problem is that people today aren't exposed to much poetry, and have difficulty navigating unusual syntax, metaphors, and language which generally isn't used in everyday speech or newspaper articles. The language will still seem archaic and foreign to many, whether it addresses God as 'thou' or 'you.'

Mr Asser- I don't have the competence to critique or offer suggestions for your translation, but I for one would be extremely happy to have an Orthodox KJV. I already have the CTOS Psalter.

[Nathaniel Woon]

Dear Michael,

If you sign up with this group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox_psalter/ - you can see the draft of the Liturgical Psalter.

It's under files.

Nathaniel in Malaysia

[Michael Asser]

I am glad to inform those of you who are interested that the UK Crown Copyright Office has now given permission for me to reproduce the King James Apocrypha as part of the text of my 'King James Septuagint' translation.

To date, Genesis to 2 Kingdoms have been posted on the Orthodox England website, with 3 and 4 Kingdoms, 1 and 2 Paraleipomenon to follow soon. I have the rest of the text ready to post as soon as is practicable.

[Ryan]

Great news, Michael! If you can't find a publisher, would you consider using a print-on-demand service, like lulu.com? That's how David James is publishing his Russian Orthodox Psalter.

[Michael Asser]

An update on my KJV Septuagint version - Genesis to Tobit have now been posted on the Orthodox England website. Ryan: I had considered self-publishing using Lulu or another self-publisher, but my text is only provisional at the moment. I have invited comment and criticism, and others would need to proof read my work before it could be published.

[Patrick]

Michael:
Christ is Risen!
On the Orthodox England website, there are two places to view the Psalms. One is with the entire old testament (minus a few books as of now), and the other is under resources. However, these two are different in some places. Which is your current translation?

For example from Psalm 22,
6And Thy mercy shall pursue me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.
(From the Old Testament listing)
And Thy mercy shall pursue me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord unto length of days.
(From the Resources page)
Personally, I prefer the second quote (unto length of days); it sounds more liturgical and poetic to me. I do not know which you prefer.

I know it is a small difference, but there might be other differences that I have not seen that might be more significant.

Also, is there anywhere to get this in print? Not the CTOS version (which I view as an entirely different translation from yours because of their numerous edits).
Also, do you have an approximate time when the whole Old Testament (and possibly New Testament) will be released? I have heard rumors that the CTOS is going to publish your Old Testament; however, will these be edited like your translation of the Psalter? I very much prefer your original translation over the CTOS edits, so I will be saddened if the CTOS edits your translation of the Old Testament.

[Patrick]

Also, something I think might be of profit to 4 Kingdoms.

2:11
And it came to
pass, as they went on, they walked and talked: and, behold, a chariot of fire,
and horses of fire, and they separated between both; and Elijah was taken up
in a whirlwind as it were into heaven.

I believe that it should be "and Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind as if it were into heaven". According to this website, he didn't actually ascend to heaven (as Jesus is the first to as mentioned in the Gospels), but it was AS IF he did. This is a thing that many translations miss, and I believe is a cause of much confusion.
http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogma/diafora/Hlias1.htm

Here is a little excerpt from Saint Athanasius the Great
Therefore you, my beloved one, observe with precision the word ΩΣ, and let not this Scriptural syllable’s treasure and power escape your notice, nor through any misinterpretation (of the ascension) be misled into equating the Lord with the supplicant (Elijah). FOR ELIJAH DID NOT ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, nor did he -by traversing the firmament- become a resident of its courts; instead, pay attention to what the text mentions: “Upon sweeping up Elijah AS IF into Heaven”. Behold, one small word (ΩΣ) was given to portray Elijah as moving upwards; for it was enough that the Prophet was honored by a semblance (AS IF) of ascent; Heaven could never receive a supplicant (Elijah) before receiving the Lord – for nobody has ever gone up to Heaven, except the Son of Man, Who is in Heaven. Heaven was reserved, for the Creator, the beginner of mankind. Thus, with Enoch and Elijah, God gladdened the people with a promising hope, by spreading before them an ‘airborne highway’, as though for horse-drawn vehicles. ( Homily B’ on the Ascension.)

[Patrick]

Christ is Risen!

Sorry for the triple post, but I can't edit my previous ones.

Another thing that I think might be a nice addition to your translations would be to include the Greek names. It is a translation of the LXX after all. For example, you could put "Elias" instead of "Elijah", "Elias (Elijah)" where the text has his name, etc.

I am sorry if I have offended you or your translation in anyway. I am just trying to be of some assistance to your monumental task of providing the true Holy Scriptures to us in King James English. Please forgive me if I have offended you.

[Nathaniel Woon]

Hi Patrick,

I think you have made soem interesting and important observations that Michael will be able to answer. In case you have not moticed, the page with LXX translation that Michael has worked on now has all the minor prophets as well. The next book that will be posted I neleiev is Isaiah.

Nathaniel


Christ is Risen!

Sorry for the triple post, but I can't edit my previous ones.

Another thing that I think might be a nice addition to your translations would be to include the Greek names. It is a translation of the LXX after all. For example, you could put "Elias" instead of "Elijah", "Elias (Elijah)" where the text has his name, etc.

I am sorry if I have offended you or your translation in anyway. I am just trying to be of some assistance to your monumental task of providing the true Holy Scriptures to us in King James English. Please forgive me if I have offended you.

[Michael Asser]

Dear Patrick,

He is risen indeed!

Many thanks for your very helpful emails. Please don't think they caused me any offence! In putting my translations on the Web I invited comment and criticism to make them better, and I am grateful to you for taking the time to write.

In answer to the points you raised:

4 Kingdoms 2:11 : 'As it were' is archaic usage for 'as if' it were', 'as if', or 'as though' (see 'The Phrase Finder' on the Internet). It is very regularly used throughout the King James Bible and the whole series of sixteenth century English scriptural translations. So my text does mean what St Athanasios says it means. As you will see in the foreword to my complete 'King James' Septuagint, I did not attempt to modernize the text of the King James Bible in any way, although some correspondents asked me to update it - hence my use of 'as it were'. My heart is not in the business of modernizing King James.

Psalm 22:6 - I substituted 'for ever' for my original 'through length of days' when I came to revise my Psalter for the complete LXX, as being more King James' way of saying the latter. I shall certainly reconsider this in the light of your comment. There are indeed other differences between the two texts, though not many nor, I hope, significant.

In my complete LXX I originally used the Greek rather than the Hebrew form of names. However, a number of correspondents asked that I substitute the Hebrew, as being more familiar to western readers; and I reluctantly did this when posting my text on the Orthodox England website. If I publish, it will definitely be with the Greek names.

CTOS holds the copyright in my Church Psalter at least until their published edition is sold out. It was expected that CTOS would also publish my complete LXX translation, but in the event this fell through, and I have since been looking for another publisher. It has been suggested that I should self-publish through Lulu, and I shall consider this when I have finished posting the remaining books. At this time Isaiah (Esaias) to 4 Maccabees have yet to be posted.

I have hardly begun to work on the New Testament yet: I have still only done 20 chapters of St Matthew. But I understand from Nathaniel Woon that at least one other person is working on a 'Patriarchal Text' version of the King James NT.

In Christ,
Michael

michael.asser@btinternet.com

[Patrick]

Many thanks for your very helpful emails. Please don't think they caused me any offence! In putting my translations on the Web I invited comment and criticism to make them better, and I am grateful to you for taking the time to write.This is the least I can do to try to help such a wonderful project along. I am thankful for the chance to be able to offer any help at all.


4 Kingdoms 2:11 : 'As it were' is archaic usage for 'as if' it were', 'as if', or 'as though' (see 'The Phrase Finder' on the Internet). It is very regularly used throughout the King James Bible and the whole series of sixteenth century English scriptural translations. So my text does mean what St Athanasios says it means. As you will see in the foreword to my complete 'King James' Septuagint, I did not attempt to modernize the text of the King James Bible in any way, although some correspondents asked me to update it - hence my use of 'as it were'. My heart is not in the business of modernizing King James.A little after I posted, I had a suspicion that "As it were" was saying the same thing as "as if it were". I had to reread it a couple of times to be able to figure this out. I just didn't know that "as it were" was the 16th century version. I commend you to sticking to what your original goal. English is at its most beautiful and poetic sense in King James (Jacobean) English. This is just like using Koine Greek in the place of modern Greek in Greece today. It is very traditional and very beautiful.

I also want to commend you on making your translation flow really well and sound very natural. The HTM Psalter keeps the King James English; however, in many places the sentences do not flow really well. This makes it sound very clunky and unnatural. I suspect they forsook grammar for the sake of literalness in those places.




CTOS holds the copyright in my Church Psalter at least until their published edition is sold out. It was expected that CTOS would also publish my complete LXX translation, but in the event this fell through, and I have since been looking for another publisher. It has been suggested that I should self-publish through Lulu, and I shall consider this when I have finished posting the remaining books. At this time Isaiah (Esaias) to 4 Maccabees have yet to be posted. I believe that Lulu might be the better route because judging on what CTOS did to your Psalter I have low hopes on them keeping your LXX in any better condition.



I have hardly begun to work on the New Testament yet: I have still only done 20 chapters of St Matthew. But I understand from Nathaniel Woon that at least one other person is working on a 'Patriarchal Text' version of the King James NT.Is there any website that gives information on the New Testament being translated in Kings James English but using the Patriarchal Text?

[Nathaniel Woon]

Hi Patrick,

Mitrophan Chin has a version of the KJV brought inline with the Patriarchal text - you may access it through this site - http://www.orthodox.cn/software/index.html

If you scrool down, you will come to NewTstmt.zip (http://www.orthodox.cn/software/NewTstmt.zip)

This is an updated New Testament module to conform to the Byzantine text by Nelson Mitrophan Chin (mitrophan@orthodox.cn) using the King James Version with amendments to the language in 1833 by Noah Webster, America's first grammarian and founding father of American education, who in 1828 published the "American Dictionary of the English Language".

The Greek term 'Hades' is kept instead of translating it to 'hell' in Mt 11:23; Mt 16:18; Lk 10:15; Lk 16:23; Ac 2:27,31; 1Co 15:55; Re 1:18; Re 6:8; Re 20:13-14.

The Greek term 'Pascha' is kept instead of translating it to 'Passover' or 'Easter' in Mt 26:2,17-19; Mk 14:1,12,14,16; Lk 2:41; Lk 22:1,7,8,11,13,15; Jn 2:13,23; Jn 6:4; Jn 11:55; Jn 12:1; Jn 13:1; Jn 18:28,39; Jn 19:14; Ac 12:4; 1Co 5:7; Heb 11:28.

Since the Greek term 'nous' can also refer to the eye of the heart or soul or center of attention, 'nous' is kept instead of translating it to 'mind' or 'understanding' which refers only to intellectual reasoning, in Lk 24:45; Ro 1:28; Ro 7:23,25; Ro 11:34; Ro 12:2; Ro 14:5; 1Co 1:10; 1Co 2:16; 1Co 14:14,15,19; Ep 4:17,23; Phil 4:7; Col 2:18; 2Th 2:2; 1Ti 6:5; 2Ti 3:8; Ti 1:15; Re 13:18; Re 17:9

To convey the Greek term 'Hierourgeo' in Ro 15:16, 'ministering' is annotated with the clause [in priestly service]. For the Greek term 'Leitourgeo', 'minister' is annotated with the clause [the liturgy] in Act 13:2. For the Greek term 'Leitourgikos', ministering is replaced by the term 'liturgical' in Heb 1:14. To convey the Greek term 'Sunergeo', the clause [in synergy] is annotated in Mk 16:20; Ro 8:28; 1Co 16:16; 2Co 6:1; Jas 2:22. To convey the Greek term 'En' in Lk 23:42, 'into thy kingdom' is replaced with 'in thy kingdom'. To convey the Greek term 'Chrisma', the clause [of chrism] is annotated in 1Jn 2:20,27. For the Greek term 'Chrio' in Lk 4:18; Ac 4:27; Ac 10:38; 2Co 1:21; Heb 1:9, 'anointed' is replaced with 'chrismated'. For the Greek term 'presbuteros' and 'presbuterion', 'presbyter(s)' and 'presbytery' is used instead of 'elder(s)'. For the Greek term 'Eikon', 'icon' is used instead of 'image'. For the Greek term 'dwseiv', 'give' is used instead of 'suffer' in Acts 13:35.

Taking the original KJV New Testament one step further and to be consistent with the Greek Old and New Testament, Greek names are used, such as Jeremias for Jeremiah or Jeremy, Elias for Elijah, Osee for Hosea, Jonas for Jonah, Eliseus for Elisha, Timotheus for Timothy, Noe for Noah, Judas for Judah, Urias for Uriah, reversing Webster's update, whose intentions was to help correlate with the KJV Old Testament names.

[Patrick]

Thank you, Nathaniel, for the link.

May I ask how accurate this translation is? It sounds like it is the regular KJV glossed with the 1904 Patriarchal Text or at least changing a few words to more closely match their originals (such as Hades and Hell). However, there are many differences in these two texts (like missing or different words). I noticed at least a few of these that the Patriarch missed (at least while looking at the EOB NT. For example, it will say that the TR does not contain these words, and the Patriarch's text does not contain them as well).

[Nathaniel Woon]

Hi Patrick,

I am no authority on the accuracy of the translation and if you need to know more about it, you will have to write to the translator/reviser Mitrophan Chin. You may contact him at this address - mitrophan@orthodox.cn>

[Michael Asser]

My English version of the Septuagint is now complete on the Orthodox England.
Michael Asser

[Michael Asser]

Correction: my last message should have read, 'My English version of the Septuagint is now complete on the Orthodox England website. Sorry!
Michael Asser

[Mark Harris]

Correction: my last message should have read, 'My English version of the Septuagint is now complete on the Orthodox England website. Sorry!
Michael Asser

I wasn't aware of this website so thank you for pointing it out. I have already read the June journal cover to cover and it was a good read and I learnt many things, so thank you very much . It is now bookmarked on my Mac.

I will be returning to the UK permanently in July and I am sure I will continue to enjoy it.

Separately if anybody knows of one I am interested in finding an 0n-line Romanian Orthodox prayer book in English (or I will order a hard copy on-line) which also indicates where crosses are required and any other things like "matanie" (touching the ground ), signing the cross on your bed during evening prayers etc. My wife has a hard copy in Romanian language that includes these.

Thank you in advance!!

[Patrick]

Does anyone know when the whole LXX will be out in print?
I was contemplating on buying Brenton's translation. However, I don't know how accurate it is, and I would much prefer to buy this one if it will be out before long. Should I hold off on buying Brenton's translation?

[Michael Asser]

Sorry, Patrick. I recently added 4 Esdras and The Prayer of Manasses, which are in the Slavonic OT but not in the published Greek books, to my online translation of the 'King James' LXX, in order to make it more useful to Russian Orthodox. Otherwise, I've just been correcting my text.

Since CTOS and I parted company I'm afraid I've not done much to get my version published. I'll approach Lulu now and see what can be done. I'd welcome any suggestions from members.

Michael

[Patrick]

The Prayer of Manasses is not in the Greek LXX? Since it was in the OSB, I assumed it was. I learn something new everyday.

Do you have any idea how long it will take to get published?

Also, how accurate is Brenton's translation, and is it worthwhile to get it in the meantime?

Do you plan on working on the NT as well? I don't believe much has to be done to get it up and running, but I really don't know much between the different manuscripts used. All I do know is that the KJV does have errors here and there.

I know this was mentioned before, but what do you plan on doing with the Greek vs Hebrew names? Do you plan on keeping them Hebrew or translating from the Greek. For example with Elias vs Elijah. All I know is that some names have particular significance with the Fathers such as Jesus (Joshua).

I would like the HTM to get their complete translation out to use side-by-side with yours, but I will probably be an old man by then. They are so meticulous on their work, but that is a good thing in the long run.

[Olga]

The Prayer of Manasses is not in the Greek LXX?

It is in my Greek LXX.

[Christophoros]

Sorry, Patrick. I recently added 4 Esdras and The Prayer of Manasses, which are in the Slavonic OT but not in the published Greek books, to my online translation of the 'King James' LXX, in order to make it more useful to Russian Orthodox. Otherwise, I've just been correcting my text.

Since CTOS and I parted company I'm afraid I've not done much to get my version published. I'll approach Lulu now and see what can be done. I'd welcome any suggestions from members.

Michael

Lulu obviously won't provide up-front income for an author/translator prior to release, but I bet there would be plenty of people interested in purchasing copies through this publisher, not to mention bulk orders from Orthodox booksellers. It's a very easy to use service. Plus the exposure could get you a deal with a traditional publisher (as it did for David James' psalter).

Do you have any plans to release your New Testament translation online soon?

[Jason Hunt]

I'll approach Lulu now and see what can be done. I'd welcome any suggestions from members.


I would highly recommend going with Lulu for now, until something can be worked out with a publisher. I bought a copy of David James' Psalter on Lulu and I thought it looked very nice. Michael, if you decide to publish on Lulu, can you please reply to this thread with a link to the book? I don't find Lulu's search tool to be very helpful.

[Patrick]

It is in my Greek LXX.
The reason I said this is because Michael said that it wasn't in the published Greek books. That is strange yours has it, but Michael's doesn't.

[Michael Asser]

Sorry if I was misleading about The Prayer of Manasseh. Of course it appears in Rahlf's (non-Orthodox) edition of the LXX, after the Psalms and among the Odes. It appears in the OSB because that translation was made from Rahlfs. What I meant was that it doesn't appear in editions of the LXX published in Greece, such as that of Apostoliki Diakonia from which I made my version.

I am currently fully occupied revising each Book and then posting it on the Orthodox England website. I shall have to finish this before proceeding to the NT.

Brenton has had a pretty bad press from Orthodox translators and experts because of its perceived lack of accuracy and because it is laid out like a Protestant Bible, with the deuterocanonical books appearing in a separate section at the end and not distributed as in the LXX.

Thanks for the advice on Lulu.

[Ryan]

Michael- I remain very interested in your project and would certainly purchase a copy when made available. On a side note, I was reading through your version of Wisdom of Solomon and came across this part: "For He created all things, that they might have their being: and the generations of the world were healthful; and there is no destruction in the poison of them, nor the kingdom of death upon the earth." I was scratching my head trying to figure out what "no destruction in the poison of them" might mean. I looked at the original KJV translation and it says "no poison of destruction in them." Now that I can make sense of... I'm assuming fidelity to the Greek demanded your rendition, but I wonder what it means.

Do you still need help proofreading the text? I could volunteer for one of the shorter books.

[Michael Asser]

Thanks, Ryan. I'm afraid I simply made a mistake in copying: Ch.1, v.14 should indeed have read 'no poison of destruction in them'. I'm having to examine each Book very carefully to try to pick up literals such as this. I would be very glad of your help in this task. Would you like to check one or more of the Minor Prophets?

[Nathaniel Woon]

Michael,

I think you should go ahead with lulu when you have completed the revisions. In the meantime, you need people to proof read the various books of the LXX as you have translated them. I'd be glad to help with Tobit

[Michael Asser]

Nathaniel: many thanks for your kind offer to proof read Tobit, which I gladly accept.

[Patrick]

Michael, is there anyway that I can help with this project?

I don't know Greek, so I don't know if there is a way for me to help proofread the writing. If you just want me to look for strange wording, I can help on that. Just give me a book, and I'll do my best to read through it a time or two and try to offer suggestions or point out verses that seem strange to me.

[Michael Asser]

Patrick: many thanks. Would you be happy to look over my version of Habbakuk for typos and 'strange wordings'?

[Patrick]

I would be more than happy to. I can't help but laugh at saying 'strange wordings'. I couldn't think of anything else to say at the moment.

I asked this, but I don't think you answered. But, do you plan on keeping the names as Hebrew or translating from the Greek. For example with Elias vs Elijah. All I know is that some names have particular significance with the Fathers such as Jesus (Joshua).

[Michael Asser]

Patrick: I still don't sure whether any published version should keep to the Greek names. My original text had them. I changed them to the more familiar KJV form before posting them on the Orthodox England website.

[Ryan]

Patrick: I still don't sure whether any published version should keep to the Greek names. My original text had them. I changed them to the more familiar KJV form before posting them on the Orthodox England website.

What are the reasons not to keep the Greek names? It seems to me the KJV translators rendered the names according to the language they were translating from- Joshua/Jesus, Elijah/Elias, etc. On the other hand, they were not always using the Greek names directly ("James" instead of "Iakovos") so I suppose there is also something to be said for familiarity.

[Michael Asser]

The only reason that was given by correspondents not to keep the Greek form of names in the LXX was their unfamiliarity to Western Christians. In my heart I'm not sure that that is a good enough reason if it entails throwing out the typological significance of the Greek names, which of course are used by the KJV NT.

[Ryan]

Perhaps you could limit yourself to the Greek names that recur with some significance in the NT- for example, Elias or Jesus. Western readers aren't unfamiliar with these names, they just aren't used to seeing them in the Old Testament. Meanwhile, other names like Habbakuk (as opposed to Avvakoum) you could leave alone?

[David Hawthorne]

That is a good suggestion, and I would definitely see the value in retaining Jesus for Joshua since the Fathers made such a big deal in the name and ministry of one Jesus corresponding to the other. But I don't think any other names in the OT are like this are they? What is the significance of Elias over Elijah in the patristic commentaries?

If you go with Greek style names overall very few will use the translation. Those who don't know their Bible will find the odd sounding names foreign while those who are steeped in their Bibles will find them strange.

[Olga]

Then what of the apostle Jude, brother of the Lord and of James? My understanding is that this form of his name was chosen to distinguish him from Judas the Iscariot. There are also many names in both the OT and NT which have long been rendered in non-Greek forms in English-language Bibles, such as Stephen (not Stephanos), Paul (not Paulos), and, as others have pointed out, Joshua, rather than Jesus, for the son of Nun.

[Patrick]

We have to remember that the names in the NT are translated from the Greek, such as Jesus, Paul, James, etc. However, these names were subject to natural linguistic changes (Iesus > Jesus, Paulos > Paul, Iakovos > James, etc.).

The names in the OT however were translated from the Hebrew where the names might not match up exactly with the same name as in the NT. For example, Jesus vs Joshua and Elias vs Elijah. As Ryan said, the KJV translators did seem to go with using the names of the translated language (I admit I just did a quick search and don't know how extensive this is).
For example:
Matthew 17:12
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Matthew 15:7
Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

I think I mentioned earlier about the convention used by the Holy Apostles' Convent in their Lives of the Holy Prophets book. They used the Greek name with the Western name right beside it in parentheses (or vice-versa I can't remember). Esaias (Isaiah), Elias (Elijah), etc. This is just a simple suggestion from a simple person.

[David James]

Hi Patrick,

Mitrophan Chin has a version of the KJV brought inline with the Patriarchal text - you may access it through this site - http://www.orthodox.cn/software/index.html

If you scrool down, you will come to NewTstmt.zip (http://www.orthodox.cn/software/NewTstmt.zip)

This is an updated New Testament module to conform to the Byzantine text by Nelson Mitrophan Chin (mitrophan@orthodox.cn) using the King James Version with amendments to the language in 1833 by Noah Webster, America's first grammarian and founding father of American education, who in 1828 published the "American Dictionary of the English Language".

The Greek term 'Hades' is kept instead of translating it to 'hell' in Mt 11:23; Mt 16:18; Lk 10:15; Lk 16:23; Ac 2:27,31; 1Co 15:55; Re 1:18; Re 6:8; Re 20:13-14.

The Greek term 'Pascha' is kept instead of translating it to 'Passover' or 'Easter' in Mt 26:2,17-19; Mk 14:1,12,14,16; Lk 2:41; Lk 22:1,7,8,11,13,15; Jn 2:13,23; Jn 6:4; Jn 11:55; Jn 12:1; Jn 13:1; Jn 18:28,39; Jn 19:14; Ac 12:4; 1Co 5:7; Heb 11:28.

Since the Greek term 'nous' can also refer to the eye of the heart or soul or center of attention, 'nous' is kept instead of translating it to 'mind' or 'understanding' which refers only to intellectual reasoning, in Lk 24:45; Ro 1:28; Ro 7:23,25; Ro 11:34; Ro 12:2; Ro 14:5; 1Co 1:10; 1Co 2:16; 1Co 14:14,15,19; Ep 4:17,23; Phil 4:7; Col 2:18; 2Th 2:2; 1Ti 6:5; 2Ti 3:8; Ti 1:15; Re 13:18; Re 17:9

To convey the Greek term 'Hierourgeo' in Ro 15:16, 'ministering' is annotated with the clause [in priestly service]. For the Greek term 'Leitourgeo', 'minister' is annotated with the clause [the liturgy] in Act 13:2. For the Greek term 'Leitourgikos', ministering is replaced by the term 'liturgical' in Heb 1:14. To convey the Greek term 'Sunergeo', the clause [in synergy] is annotated in Mk 16:20; Ro 8:28; 1Co 16:16; 2Co 6:1; Jas 2:22. To convey the Greek term 'En' in Lk 23:42, 'into thy kingdom' is replaced with 'in thy kingdom'. To convey the Greek term 'Chrisma', the clause [of chrism] is annotated in 1Jn 2:20,27. For the Greek term 'Chrio' in Lk 4:18; Ac 4:27; Ac 10:38; 2Co 1:21; Heb 1:9, 'anointed' is replaced with 'chrismated'. For the Greek term 'presbuteros' and 'presbuterion', 'presbyter(s)' and 'presbytery' is used instead of 'elder(s)'. For the Greek term 'Eikon', 'icon' is used instead of 'image'. For the Greek term 'dwseiv', 'give' is used instead of 'suffer' in Acts 13:35.

Taking the original KJV New Testament one step further and to be consistent with the Greek Old and New Testament, Greek names are used, such as Jeremias for Jeremiah or Jeremy, Elias for Elijah, Osee for Hosea, Jonas for Jonah, Eliseus for Elisha, Timotheus for Timothy, Noe for Noah, Judas for Judah, Urias for Uriah, reversing Webster's update, whose intentions was to help correlate with the KJV Old Testament names.

The process you describe goes well beyond "correcting" the KJ to agree with the Greek, IMO, and reminds one uncomfortably of the Jehovah's Witnesses' "New World Bible". As far as I am aware, the KJ New Testament, in particular, is widely regarded as a faithful translation of the Greek text from which it was translated.

David James

[David James]

If I publish, it will definitely be with the Greek names.



Dear Michael:

I sincerely hope not!

Yes, you are adapting the KJ to the Septuagint, BUT you are working with an English translation - and one that is universally acknowledged to be one of the chief monuments of English literature, to boot - and the KJ form of the names is an important part of the ethos of that translation as a whole. IMO, to use the Hellenized form of proper names would deform your adaptation, not even mainly because it is unfaithful to the KJ original, but because it passes beyond the boundary of correcting the meaning of the King James to agree with the Greek Septuagint text into the realm of personal taste.

The same argument goes for the use of "Hades", instead of "hell", or "ode" instead of "canticle", for example.

As translators, we always have to bear in mind that we are not translating words, but meaning. That's why a mechanical equating of a word in one language to a word in another language works so poorly, in the end. An overly-literal translation can obscure or distort the meaning of an original text just as much as (or even more than) a translation that is too free.

I am sorry to say that I have only recently started to examine your adaption of the King James Old Testament to the Septuagint text, because I was using the texts on the Orthodox England site to make up a booklet for the Holy Saturday Lessons at Vespers.

Before I go on to make any more comments, let me hasten to say that what you have done is monumental in its scope and, whatever minor flaws there may be (and who is perfect this side of Heaven?), you have done an enormous service for all English-speaking Orthodox. The following comments are meant in no way to diminish your achievement, or to deter any Orthodox Christian interested in the Bible, and especially as it is used in our liturgical worship, from using your correction of the King James Old Testament.

Now on to my specific comments. These are not systematic - they are just things that jumped out at me as I was cutting and pasting for my Holy Saturday Vespers book.

Genesis 1:2

You have: "But the earth was invisible, and without form..."

The KJ is: "And the earth was without form, and void..."

My comment: The meaning is equivalent, therefore I don't see the need for the alteration to the KJ

Genesis 1:5

You have: "And there was evening, and there was morning, one day."

The KJ is: "And the evening and the morning were the first day."

My comment: "the first day" is more 'English', IMO, and conveys the same thought.

Genesis 5:8 (also see Gen 5:13)

You have: "And there was evening and there was morning, a second day."

The KJ is: "And the evening and the morning were the second day."

My comment: The KJ use of the definite article strikes me as more natural, and I don't get the importance of the distinction, if there is one, in the original Greek. If you were to use the definite article in your version, it would be better than the KJ, but it isn't, as it stands.

Jonah 2:3

You have: "I cried in mine affliction unto the Lord my God, and He heard me; even cry out of the belly of Hades, Thou heardest my cry, my voice."

The KJ is (2:2): "I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

My comment: I have already mentioned (above) my preference for the retention of the classical English "hell" vs. the hellenistic and anachronistic "Hades". The latter word only came into use in English c1675-1685, and in bible translation with the RSV. It's the 1611 King James version we're working with here, after all. Plus, compare the definitions at dictionary.com for "hell" vs. "Hades". IMO, "in" and the KJ "by reason of" are equivalent in meaning, so why change it? Could "Even cry" and "my cry, my voice" be typos?

Jonah 2:11 (2:10 in the KJ)

You have: "And the Lord commanded the sea creature, and it cast out Jonah upon the dry land."

The KJ is: "And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land."

My comment: Here, the meaning of the two versions is identical, i.e., the KJ accurately translates the Greek into English. Why the changes? I note that the Latin is "et dixit Dominus pisci et evomuit Ionam in aridam."

Joshua 5:10

You have: "And the sons of Israel kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month, at even, to the westward of Jericho, on the far side Jordan in the plain."

The KJ is: "And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho."

My comment: The difference between these two versions of the same verse is actually an excellent illustration of why your adaptation is so important. My only quibble is with the use of the word "sons" vs. "children". Both Miles Coverdale and the translators of the King James version consistently translate the Greek word for "sons" as "children", unless otherwise called for by the context, and, IMO, that practice more accurately reflects the intended meaning of the original. This is entirely subjective, of course, on my part.

Isaiah 61:10

You have: "Let my soul rejoice in the Lord; for He hath clothed me with a robe of salvation, and a garment of gladness: He hath put a mitre on me, as upon a bridegroom, and decked me with an ornament as a bride."

The KJ is: "I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels."

My comment: Another good example of why your adaptation is important. However, IMO, the definite article is called for here: "the robe of salvation", "the garment of gladness". An Orthodox wedding is referred to as a crowning, so I would prefer the use of the word "crown", rather than "mitre", which is jarring, to my ear, and I would put "an ornament" at least into the plural, "ornaments," though, personally, I think the KJ "jewels" is better, even if it is not an exact translation of the Greek word. It's the meaning that's paramount, not the exact nuance of every particular word; plus, it is the KJ word. Finally, "decked" to a modern ear could sound slightly pejorative, so I would prefer it if the bride were "adorned" with "jewels", as in the KJ.

Well, Michael, I could go on, but you get the gist. I hope you understand that these comments in no way diminish my admiration for, and appreciation of, your monumental achievement. I would be more than happy to offer you additional comments privately, if you are interested in them. My e-mail address is jamesdm49@gmail.com. I doubt that I would have the stamina to go through every verse of the complete Old Testament, but I think I could handle at least going through carefully all the Old Testament readings that are in the Church lectionary, and would be happy to do so, if it would be helpful. Wishing you a grace-filled and peaceful fast.

David James

[David Hawthorne]

Michael, have you considered making your LXX available in another format like an e-Sword module?

Paul Esposito has done that with the modern language Apostles Bible and the Apostolic Bible by Charles van der Pool is also available in that format.

You might even be able to offer it as a premium module and sell it that way to increase awareness of the translation until you can find a publisher to produce a hard copy.

One printer I know of who can publish Bibles in India paper is Dickinson Press in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

[Michael Asser]

Thank you, David, for informing me about e-Sword, which I have just looked on their website. I am rather in the Dark Ages regarding e-publishing, but I realise its potential for my work. I am well advanced on the revision of my text, which I hope will be ready for publication by the end of this year.

[David Hawthorne]

Thank you, David, for informing me about e-Sword, which I have just looked on their website. I am rather in the Dark Ages regarding e-publishing, but I realise its potential for my work. I am well advanced on the revision of my text, which I hope will be ready for publication by the end of this year.

That is great news! I was also curious: will it be in a single volume and were you using the Patriarchal Text for the New Testament or the Majority Text? Also, any plans to put the New Testament up for viewing at Orthodox England?

[Michael Asser]

David: It is only the Septuagint translation that I hope will be revised and ready for publication by the end of this year. As to format, it would be economical to have it in one volume.
I have made very little progress on my NT, which is based on the Patriarchal Text.

[Vincent M.]

This project seems superfluous, considering we already have the beautiful English translation of the LXX as found in the Orthodox Study Bible, as well as the Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible project, of which the NT is already complete.

It also seems very strange and misguided for Orthodox Christians to give so much weight to the KJV, considering the immensely flawed textual basis. The KJV is singlehandedly responsible for a great deal of modern day misunderstandings and half-truths among English speaking Protestant sects today.

[Daniel R.]

This project seems superfluous, considering we already have the beautiful English translation of the LXX as found in the Orthodox Study Bible, as well as the Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible project, of which the NT is already complete. I would not call it beautiful myself in fact it is mostly just the N.K.J.V. with some notes and a bit of an update in the Old Testament to get it more as the LXX and even its authors seem to think it can be improved upon hence the Eastern Orthodox Bible. Just beacuse a translation has been done does not mean another one should not or is superfluous, besides one could argue the Eastern Orthodox Bible is superfluous as we have the Orthodox New Testament by the Holy Apostles Convent.


It also seems very strange and misguided for Orthodox Christians to give so much weight to the KJV, considering the immensely flawed textual basis. The KJV is singlehandedly responsible for a great deal of modern day misunderstandings and half-truths among English speaking Protestant sects today. Well in my opinion the N.I.V. has far more to answer for, but the reason a lot of people like the K.J.V. is more to do with the far finer grammar and wording that one finds in the King James compared with most modern translations.

And it is the translation which is sometimes flawed in the K.J.V. the text type (which is used also in the N.K.J.V.) is far closer to the texts that are used by the Orthodox Church than most modern translations which are based on old yet corrupt manuscripts that have been muddled together to form something that never existed.

[Vincent M.]

Tongues? Unicorns? Easter? Hell?

The KJV has plenty to answer for, especially for the ignorant who twist it to their destruction.

[Vincent M.]

The KJV is based on the Textus Receptus...

[Daniel R.]

Tongues? Unicorns? Easter? Hell?
Tongues is the English word for languages it is simply that people choice to interpret how they will by reading the bible on there own terms not on God's terms in the Church. Unicorns I have not come across. As far as I know Easter has been used to translate Pascha from day one, it might not be the best term but the meaning was intended to be the same. Hell is the English word for Hades sadly the K.J.V. made the mistake of translating that which takes place after the Judging of the living and dead as Hell as well.


The KJV is based on the Textus Receptus... It is indeed which is still a lot more accurate than the Critical text and not is not that far behind the majority text. It is also the base for the N.K.J.V. which is used in the Orthodox Study Bible. But my main point is not whether the K.J.V. is perfect it is not. My main point was that Mike Asser's translation is both needed and wanted.

[Vincent M.]

I'm no fan of the NKJV, either... the value of the OSB is in its LXX translation. The EOB-NT is the best NT translation available.

[Daniel R.]

I'm no fan of the NKJV, either... the value of the OSB is in its LXX translation. The EOB-NT is the best NT translation available. I think that Orthodox New Testament by the Apostles Convent is better for the N.T. but I guess that is why we need more than one translation :)

[Father David Moser]

I think that Orthodox New Testament by the Apostles Convent is better for the N.T. but I guess that is why we need more than one translation :)

I really have to say that while M. Miriam's translation may be painstakingly accurate, it is also extremely difficult to read. While it may be good as a "study" Bible, it is not a translation that can be used for public reading in Church. Neither, imo,is the NKJV. The best that we have for public use, at present is, imo, the KJV, even with the "outdated" parts of the language. Nothing else compares in sheer beauty, rhythm and flow; and it is as accurate a translation as anything else out there.

Fr David Moser

[Daniel R.]

I really have to say that while M. Miriam's translation may be painstakingly accurate, it is also extremely difficult to read. While it may be good as a "study" Bible, it is not a translation that can be used for public reading in Church. Bless Father,

I agree it could be hard used in church but I do use it at home for the Typica and most of the time I find it is fine, but where it gets hard I normally adapt and say something nearer the standard K.J.V. reading, as I admit it is hard to read in a few places.

As for a study bible the notes are very useful, though I do prefer to read the Holy Fathers direct and not quoted as it were, the notes are one of the reasons I asked for the Epistle and Gospel book for Christmas gift when my mom wanted to know what I wanted along with the painstaking accuracy you speak of.

In Christ.
Daniel,

[David Hawthorne]

If the Orthodox Study Bible is supposed to be a translation of the Septuagint then Asser's work is definitely needed.

I waited for the OSB to come out for years and, once it did, I was very surprised and disappointed to find how often it deviates from the Septuagint and keeps the Masoretic readings.

It has potential but it is in deep need of a careful revision if it is to be taken seriously as an English translation of the LXX.

R Grant Jones has put this review out which will show what I mean: http://mysite.verizon.net/rgjones3/Septuagint/spindex.htm

[Alex Haig]

We can see from discussion that the mind of the Church has not been made regarding a translation of Scripture into English - we can find support for a whole range of translations: KJV, NKJV, RSV, EOB, OSB, etc, etc, etc

I believe that we will one day get to an "authorised" translation, probably not from one which currently exists but neither from scratch - a composite which holds to the Faith. We also, I believe, should not worry too much over translations: what is important is the understanding as given to us by the Fathers which is an unchanging witness.

In Xp
Alexander