Christ's brothers and sisters

[Sean M.]

As i understand it, the Orthodox Church teaches that Christ had several half brothers and sisters. These were Joseph's children from his previous marriage to Salome. Does the Orthodox Church understand the Mary mentioned in Mark15:40 as being Theotokos?

If the answer is yes and her step daughter was Salome, is this the same Salome who is meant to be the Mother of James and John the sons of Zebedee?

[Father David Moser]

As i understand it, the Orthodox Church teaches that Christ had several half brothers and sisters. These were Joseph's children from his previous marriage to Salome. Does the Orthodox Church understand the Mary mentioned in Mark15:40 as being Theotokos?

If the answer is yes and her step daughter was Salome, is this the same Salome who is meant to be the Mother of James and John the sons of Zebedee?

yes and yes.

This is quite clear in the synaxarion reading for Myrrhbearers found in the pentecostarion. I'm not at home so I can't pull the quote for you, but it should not be too hard to find.

Fr David Moser

[Sean M.]

yes and yes.

This is quite clear in the synaxarion reading for Myrrhbearers found in the pentecostarion. I'm not at home so I can't pull the quote for you, but it should not be too hard to find.

Fr David Moser

I'm not familiar with some of those things you mentioned, but i will look for them. I was curious to know because wouldn't this have meant Christ was a type of uncle figure to James and John if he was the step brother of Salome their mother?

[Father David Moser]

I'm not familiar with some of those things you mentioned, but i will look for them. I was curious to know because wouldn't this have meant Christ was a type of uncle figure to James and John if he was the step brother of Salome their mother?

I'm sorry - I missed the nuance on this. Salome was not Joseph's wife, but rather Joseph's daughter (thus the Virgin's "step daughter"). Thus Jesus would have been, according to our modern terminology, the half brother of Salome and therefore a kind of uncle. But if you look at relative ages, this would be an "uncle" who was younger than his nephews. You have to remember though that all the "step/half/brother/sister/aunt/uncle/etc" relationships are relatively modern usage which define a specific legal blood relationship (or lack of blood relationship) and in the Gospel they are nowhere near as "exact" as we end to use them in the modern west. Even in Russia or Greece (or in some families in the US) such terms as brother, cousin, aunt, uncle are used in a very loose manner not at all in line with the legal blood relationship definitions.

The name "Salome" for Joseph's first wife is not something I recall (but as I said, I'm not at home so I can't really do research at the moment.) The Synaxarion of the Myrrhbearers tells of the myrrhbearing women who came to the tomb and includes Salome as the daughter of Joseph and wife of Zebedee. It also explains that James the less is the son of Joseph and that Mary is described in the Gospel as his (step)mother. Again, I won't be where I can look this up again for a couple of days so if there is anyone else who can quote the synaxarion, I trust they will do so.

I'm not sure which terms you don't know, but we are basically talking about the parts of the matins services and the source from which the changeable material for the season is drawn.

[Sean M.]

I'm sorry - I missed the nuance on this. Salome was not Joseph's wife, but rather Joseph's daughter (thus the Virgin's "step daughter"). Thus Jesus would have been, according to our modern terminology, the half brother of Salome and therefore a kind of uncle. But if you look at relative ages, this would be an "uncle" who was younger than his nephews. You have to remember though that all the "step/half/brother/sister/aunt/uncle/etc" relationships are relatively modern usage which define a specific legal blood relationship (or lack of blood relationship) and in the Gospel they are nowhere near as "exact" as we end to use them in the modern west. Even in Russia or Greece (or in some families in the US) such terms as brother, cousin, aunt, uncle are used in a very loose manner not at all in line with the legal blood relationship definitions.

The name "Salome" for Joseph's first wife is not something I recall (but as I said, I'm not at home so I can't really do research at the moment.) The Synaxarion of the Myrrhbearers tells of the myrrhbearing women who came to the tomb and includes Salome as the daughter of Joseph and wife of Zebedee. It also explains that James the less is the son of Joseph and that Mary is described in the Gospel as his (step)mother. Again, I won't be where I can look this up again for a couple of days so if there is anyone else who can quote the synaxarion, I trust they will do so.

I'm not sure which terms you don't know, but we are basically talking about the parts of the matins services and the source from which the changeable material for the season is drawn.

Thank you i appreciate the information, i think tradition holds that Josephs first wife was also called Salome. I wasn't familiar with the term, "Synaxarion," i did a quick check for it and found that it is a record of the Saints in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches.

[Paul Cowan]

I get confused when parents name their children after themselves. For men, it is easy enough to say Paul Sr. or Paul Jr. Paul bar Paul. But women have no such descriptor. It is mostly unknown these days for daughters to be named after their mothers. It does make understanding the times then more difficult when we try to use our current practises of naming people. Or our current practises for anything to try to equate 2000 years ago with today.

Yes, I also read St. Joseph's wife and daughter shared the same name. It makes the crucifixion passages challenging to keep up with. Also having 3 Marys' present does not help. Obviously a very popular name.

Paul

[Olga]

Sean, Joseph's first wife, according to tradition, was called Solomonia, not Salome. Hope this clears a few things up.

[Kosta]

There is a popular icon of the flight into Egypt. Riding on the Donkey is the Theotokos with the Christ child and a very young man who is James leading the donkey with Joseph following.

The only thing is i would not associate James the less with James the brother of Jesus. 'James the less' literally means " James junior" meaning there was a "James senior". I believe James the Less is the son of Cleopas, brother of Joseph. While the senior is the half brother of Jesus, son of Joseph.

In Mark 15.40 the Mary who is mother of James the less and of Joses and Salome is probably the sister-in-law of the Theotokos with the same name (see Jn 19.25), wife of Cleopas .

This would also makes sense since both Cleopas and Joseph being brothers would name their firstborn sons' after their father, as is the custom. The geneaology in Matthew;s gospel verifies that the grandfather of James was also named James (Iakovos) in Matt 1.16.

Since there was amazement that John the Baptist was not named after his father or a close relative (this usually means the grandfather- see Lk 1.59-61), this was never an issue with Jesus already having atleast one older sibling.

Usually im of the opinion that James first bishop of Jerusalem was the only child from Joseph from a previous marriage, basing it on the icon i mentioned above and from comparing the passage of Mk 15.40 with Mk 6.3-4 & Lk 2.41-43, Also the fact being martyred in 62 a.d. would be pushing his age real old if he was the eldest of many other children born before Jesus.
In such an era, with extended families, it was quite common to refer to various relatives as brother or sister or mother or father as is evident in John 19.25. (No one named 2 daughters by the same name).

[Olga]

Kosta, there are three apostles by the name of James. James "the Lesser" is also known as James Alphaeus, son of Mary and Joses. James "the Greater" is one of the sons of Zebedee, along with his brother John. James the Brother of the Lord is the son of Joseph, and step-brother of Christ.

It should be pointed out that the terms "greater" and "lesser" in reference to these apostles is not found in Orthodoxy, but only in the west.

As for how many children Joseph the Betrothed had, tradition tells us of at least two of his children by his first wife: James, Apostle and first bishop of Jerusalem, and Jude the Apostle (both referred to as "brothers of the Lord"), as well as Joses, Simon the Kinsman of the Lord, and unnamed sisters. The latter are possibly nieces or nephews of Joseph, rather than children of his.

[Christophoros]

Sean, Joseph's first wife, according to tradition, was called Solomonia, not Salome. Hope this clears a few things up.

The Great Synaxaristes of the Orthodox Church, December volume, p. 1068, reads:

"The Righteous Joseph's first marriage to Salome produced children. He had four sons - James, Joses, Jude, and Symeon - and three daughters - Esther, Martha, and Salome. At the time of the Elder Joseph's repose, most of Jesus' step-brothers and step-sisters had already married and were living in their own houses. This included his daughter, Salome, who had married Zebedee and had two sons. However, Jesus' step-brothers, Jude and James, were still living at home."

I also did a quick Google search, and there are several non-Orthodox sources which speak of "tradition recording" the first wife of St. Joseph as being Salome.

[Sean M.]

The Great Synaxaristes of the Orthodox Church, December volume, p. 1068, reads:

"The Righteous Joseph's first marriage to Salome produced children. He had four sons - James, Joses, Jude, and Symeon - and three daughters - Esther, Martha, and Salome. At the time of the Elder Joseph's repose, most of Jesus' step-brothers and step-sisters had already married and were living in their own houses. This included his daughter, Salome, who had married Zebedee and had two sons. However, Jesus' step-brothers, Jude and James, were still living at home."

I also did a quick Google search, and there are several non-Orthodox sources which speak of "tradition recording" the first wife of St. Joseph as being Salome.

So i take it from an Orthodox perspective, the Mary mentioned in Mark15:40 is meant to be Theotokos?

[Christophoros]

So i take it from an Orthodox perspective, the Mary mentioned in Mark15:40 is meant to be Theotokos?

According to The Explanation of the New Testament, by Blessed Theophylact of Ochrid, yes.

"This Mary was the Theotokos, the Mother of God, who, because she had been betrothed to Joseph, was called the 'mother' of James and Joses, who were among Joseph's children by his first marriage." (Vol. 2, p. 138, commentary on Mark 15:38-41)

[Sean M.]

Thanks for the information Christophoros, i think i am going to try and pick up a copy of, "The Great Synaxaristes of the Orthodox Church", and, "The Explanation of the New Testament", by Blessed Theophylact of Ochrid.