Are the souls of the saints in heaven?

[Patrick]

I know that when the "normal" people die, they go to Hades and experience a foretaste of Heaven or Hell. However, what about the Saints? I have been told that their souls go to Heaven, but I have also been told that they are in Hades as well. I do not know which is true. I do know that in Hebrews 12:1 the Saints are described as thus:

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

My understanding is that the Saints go to Heaven. The righteous, but not holy enough to be a Saint, go to Hades to experience a foretaste of Heaven while the unrighteous foretaste Hell. Is this right and Orthodox, or do the Saints also go the Hades? Thank you.

Edit:
Here is another verse that made me understand my view the way I do.
Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Here (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/catechism_ext.htm) is a site that I found that describes much of what I stated. It is in the section called "communion of Saints".

[Father David Moser]

I know that when the "normal" people die, they go to Hades and experience a foretaste of Heaven or Hell. However, what about the Saints?. I do know that in Hebrews 12:1 the Saints are described as thus:
...
Here is another verse that made me understand my view the way I do.
Hebrews 12:23

You might want to back up just a tad and look at Heb 11:39&40 which tells us that the saints have "received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" In other words the saints have not yet entered into their reward (heaven) for they are waiting for us (the rest of the Church) so that we might all enter into heaven (our reward) as one (the One Body of Christ).

Fr David Moser

[Paul Cowan]

I know that when the "normal" people die, they go to Hades and experience a foretaste of Heaven or Hell. However, what about the Saints? I have been told that their souls go to Heaven, but I have also been told that they are in Hades as well.

It was my understanding at death we go through the general judgement (not the final judgement) and as we have lived we will be sent to hades or paradise. These are places of foreshadowing of where we will "probably" be spending eternity. Not normal people versus saints, but as we have lived our lives. It is the grace and mercy of God that will determine at the Final judgement whether or not to keep us in our place of waiting.

I am not a saint, and I dare to judge othes by saying no one else here is either. So if we are not saints and all we have to look forward to his hades and hell as "normal people" because we are not saints, what's the use? I pray for mercy as I live my life to the best of my abilities and trust in His wisdom to judge me properly. (it also terrifies me to rely on my way of living knowing I will be judged by Him in the end) Lord have mercy on us ALL


The righteous, but not holy enough to be a Saint, go to Hades to experience a foretaste of Heaven while the unrighteous foretaste Hell.

Hades is a foretaste of hell. Paradise is a foretaste of heaven. I have heard upon death the soul is taken to both locations before settling in for the wait of the Final judgement so it can see what it may or may not attain. There are several threads on this topic in the forum if you do a search for them. If I remember my stories right, only those that have been "translated to heaven" are in heaven. Enoch, Elijah, Theotokos. I may be wrong. Even those Jesus marched out of hell at His descent did not go to heaven but are sitting in paradise or hades rather than in hell itself anymore waiting the Final judgement.


Paul

[Patrick]

You might want to back up just a tad and look at Heb 11:39&40 which tells us that the saints have "received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" In other words the saints have not yet entered into their reward (heaven) for they are waiting for us (the rest of the Church) so that we might all enter into heaven (our reward) as one (the One Body of Christ).

Fr David Moser

What about the link that I posted? Is it just plain wrong then? I don't see why a catechism site would be wrong and mislead the people searching for the Church. Also, if the Saints are not in Heaven, how does this explain the cloud of witnesses unless the cloud only has three, human, witnesses. However, according to the OSB, the note on Hebrews 11:40 states that "Christ's Incarnation and all that He accomplished for us in the flesh redeems the OT saints, who by faith participate in His Resurrection and His Kingdom". The OT saints part seems to me that the previous section (starting with 11:32-11:38 and the next through 11:40), even titled Faith of Other Israelites, seems to me to be speaking of the OT saints and not the ones after Christ's Resurrection. And, the footnote on 12:1 about the cloud of witnesses states that "The cloud of witnesses includes not only the OT saints mentioned in ch. 11, but also the saints and martyrs of the Lord in all ages...". This also seems proof to me that the saints are in heaven. I can only understand the Holy Scripture to the best of my knowledge and with God's grace. If my reading of the Scripture and the OSB's footnotes are wrong, I'm sorry and forgive me, but I don't see why my understanding and the reading of the OSB's footnotes are wrong.


It was my understanding at death we go through the general judgement (not the final judgement) and as we have lived we will be sent to hades or paradise. These are places of foreshadowing of where we will "probably" be spending eternity. Not normal people versus saints, but as we have lived our lives. It is the grace and mercy of God that will determine at the Final judgement whether or not to keep us in our place of waiting.

I am not a saint, and I dare to judge othes by saying no one else here is either. So if we are not saints and all we have to look forward to his hades and hell as "normal people" because we are not saints, what's the use? I pray for mercy as I live my life to the best of my abilities and trust in His wisdom to judge me properly. (it also terrifies me to rely on my way of living knowing I will be judged by Him in the end) Lord have mercy on us ALL



Hades is a foretaste of hell. Paradise is a foretaste of heaven. I have heard upon death the soul is taken to both locations before settling in for the wait of the Final judgement so it can see what it may or may not attain. There are several threads on this topic in the forum if you do a search for them. If I remember my stories right, only those that have been "translated to heaven" are in heaven. Enoch, Elijah, Theotokos. I may be wrong. Even those Jesus marched out of hell at His descent did not go to heaven but are sitting in paradise or hades rather than in hell itself anymore waiting the Final judgement.


Paul

It is my understanding, from the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, that Hades is one place with two "chambers" (if you will, for lack of a better word at the moment) separated by a spiritual gulf. One of these contains the "bosom of Abraham" and the other contains torment. IE, the foretaste of Heaven or hell.

Edit: according to this site as well, here (http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html),

In the Gospel story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus clearly states that they both end up in the same place, in Hades. Hades of course is used to mean the same thing as Hebrew "Sheol," it simply means the place everyone goes when they die. In Hades they can see each other and talk to each other, although they are far off from each other.

[Paul Cowan]

Communion of Saints: When Christians depart this life, they remain a vital part of the Church, the body of Christ. They are alive in the Lord and "registered in heaven" (Hebrews 12:23). They worship God (Revelation 4:10) and inhabit His heavenly dwelling places (John 14:2). In the Eucharist we come "to the city of the living God" and join in communion with the saints in our worship of God (Hebrews 12:22). They are that "great cloud of witnesses" which surrounds us, and we seek to imitate them in running "the race set before us" (Hebrews 12:1). Rejecting or ignoring the communion of saints is a denial of the fact that those who have died in Christ are still part of his holy Church.

If this is the paragraph you are referencing, I think you are misreading it. They are alive in the Lord and "registered in heaven". This quote is italicized in the original site you offered. It does not say they are IN heaven but registered in heaven as in registered in the Book of Life. No where does it say as far as i have read in the site the saints are IN heaven.

Why cannot the cloud of witnesses be in paradise (not heaven)? It specifically says His heavenly dwelling places. Is paradise not a "heavenly" (a descriptive word) dwelling place?


Luke 16:19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Again, I think you are misreading the text. The question is WHO lifted up his eyes? The one in Hades, the rich man. It does not say Abraham and Lazarus were also in Hades. I think you are making an unjust assumption since it does not say the words heaven or paradise, yet thisis implied as the rich man saw them from "afar off".


If I might make an unrelated comparison.

if I were to say it is a sunny day with blue skies out. You may hear me not saying it also rained today. But since I did not mention rain in my opening comment, you would not think that a sunny day with blue skies might also contain a passing rain cloud.

So I urge caution in reading too much into the text of a story without considering the different slants a story could be told. This has been the most, well second most difficult thing for me to unlearn from my PC upbringing. The first was The Theotokos and her role in the church. Just because I have a preconceived notion of a "thing", does not make that "thing" true or false.

Paul

[Patrick]

From my last post, which I edited after you made your post, this site (http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html), which was edited by Father Thomas Hopko and commented on my various fathers, states that

"In the Gospel story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus clearly states that they both end up in the same place, in Hades. Hades of course is used to mean the same thing as Hebrew "Sheol," it simply means the place everyone goes when they die. In Hades they can see each other and talk to each other, although they are far off from each other."

Also, from here (http://www.antiochian.org/1310), from a topic concerning the Transfiguration from Antiochian.org, that "Moses is temporarily called from Hades". Moses, as we all know, was a Saint, so he should have been in the foretaste of paradise when he died.

However, the footnote from the OSB about "registered in Heaven" states that "This Kingdom is not earthly but heavenly, inhabited by angels (v. 22) as well as men".

[Paul Cowan]

From my last post, which I edited after you made your post, this site (http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html), which was edited by Father Thomas Hopko and commented on my various fathers, states that

"In the Gospel story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus clearly states that they both end up in the same place, in Hades. Hades of course is used to mean the same thing as Hebrew "Sheol," it simply means the place everyone goes when they die. In Hades they can see each other and talk to each other, although they are far off from each other."

Also, from here (http://www.antiochian.org/1310), from a topic concerning the Transfiguration from Antiochian.org, that "Moses is temporarily called from Hades". Moses, as we all know, was a Saint, so he should have been in the foretaste of paradise when he died.

However, the footnote from the OSB about "registered in Heaven" states that "This Kingdom is not earthly but heavenly, inhabited by angels (v. 22) as well as men".


Your quote from Antiochian.org only reinforces what I said above about Elijah being in heaven. Keep in mind the transfiguration on Tabor happened BEFORE he was crucified. Excpet for those translated to Heaven, ALL men, Moses included, were in hades waiting for Christ's release of them. Hades is not hell. Paradise is not heaven.

God is everywhere so no place is without Him; heaven, paradise, hades or hell. We however are not omnipresent and do have our own places to occupy. These are not places in geography, but of spirit.

I will concede I may be wrong about where Abraham is in relation to the rich man, but in my reading of the text, it does not "clearly state" they are both in hades, only the rich man. AND since this parable, and it is a parable, was before his releasing of the captives in hades there is a case for them both to be at different ends of hades.

My argument to this is why then is there a gulf between them in hades? What purpose does this gulf hold? If all men are there, why have a boundary between them?

Paul

[Andreas Moran]

For what it's worth I mention this. In his 'Letter to Nectarius in Consolation', St Basil the Great, in seeking to comfort Nectarius and his wife (this Nectarius being assumed to be he who was Archbishop of Constantinople 381-397) on the untimely death of their only son, wrote, 'earth has not covered our beloved one, but heaven has received him'. In the original Greek, St Basil employs the word, 'ouranos'.

[Patrick]

Also, according to the site that I mentioned earlier (http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html), and to anyone who studies the Greek language, Hades is known as the realm of the dead. Everyone who died, before the Resurrection, went to Hades. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, they both go to Hades, but their experience is vastly different. The gulf, in the OSB, is mentioned. "The great gulf is not a geographical divide, but the complete separation between virtue and wickedness, a separation that cannot be overcome after death."
Also, Paul's mentioning of the quotations from the catechism site. The quotes seem to be employed when there is a direct quote from the Bible, just as I have done now from the OSB.

Also, one more quote from the Bible that I just remembered. Revelation 20:13 states that "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them..." The footnote in the OSB for this verse also states that "Hades, the intermediate state between death and resurrection, will end." If paradise were a different place, it would have been mentioned here as well, for I hardly see paradise being called Death. So, it has to be in Hades as well.

If I may quote wikipedia, oh no the devil...wikipedia (to some), but sarcasm aside, on their article about Saints this is listed:

"In the Eastern Orthodox Church a Saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not. By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various Prophets, the Angels and Archangels are all given the title of "Saint". Sainthood in the Orthodox Church does not necessarily reflect a moral model, but the communion with God: there are countless examples of people who lived in great sin and became saints by humility and repentance, such as Mary of Egypt, Moses the Ethiopian, James the Righteous, and of course Dysmas, the repentant thief on the Cross. Therefore, a more complete definition of what a saint is, has to do with the way that saints, through their humility and their love of humankind, saved inside them the entire Church, and loved all people."

Wikipedia, although hated my some and loved by others, is a very reliable site. Doesn't sound too convincing to anyone who doubts wikipedia, huh?

[Benjamin Amis]

Also, according to the site that I mentioned earlier (http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html), and to anyone who studies the Greek language, Hades is known as the realm of the dead. Everyone who died, before the Resurrection, went to Hades. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, they both go to Hades, but their experience is vastly different. The gulf, in the OSB, is mentioned. "The great gulf is not a geographical divide, but the complete separation between virtue and wickedness, a separation that cannot be overcome after death."
Also, Paul's mentioning of the quotations from the catechism site. The quotes seem to be employed when there is a direct quote from the Bible, just as I have done now from the OSB.

Also, one more quote from the Bible that I just remembered. Revelation 20:13 states that "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them..." The footnote in the OSB for this verse also states that "Hades, the intermediate state between death and resurrection, will end." If paradise were a different place, it would have been mentioned here as well, for I hardly see paradise being called Death. So, it has to be in Hades as well.

If I may quote wikipedia, oh no the devil...wikipedia (to some), but sarcasm aside, on their article about Saints this is listed:

"In the Eastern Orthodox Church a Saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not. By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various Prophets, the Angels and Archangels are all given the title of "Saint". Sainthood in the Orthodox Church does not necessarily reflect a moral model, but the communion with God: there are countless examples of people who lived in great sin and became saints by humility and repentance, such as Mary of Egypt, Moses the Ethiopian, James the Righteous, and of course Dysmas, the repentant thief on the Cross. Therefore, a more complete definition of what a saint is, has to do with the way that saints, through their humility and their love of humankind, saved inside them the entire Church, and loved all people."

Wikipedia, although hated my some and loved by others, is a very reliable site. Doesn't sound too convincing to anyone who doubts wikipedia, huh?

From what I understand, Hellenized Jews, and later on Christians, used the Greek word Ἅιδης (Hades) to translate the Hebrew concept of שׁאול(Sheol), which was simply the place of the dead. For Jews, Sheol contained a partition, creating two "chambers" if you will. our Lord calls this a "great chasm" that cannot be crossed (Luke 16:26) . The place of the blessed in Sheol is generally called Abraham's Bosom, where they receive a foretaste of heaven and Gehenna is often considered the place of the wicked, where they receive a foretaste of hell. The Greek idea of Hades is very similar. Within Hades, for the classical Greek mind, there are three places: Elysium, the Asphodel Meadows and Tartarus. Elysium is the place of the virtuous heroes, Asphodel Meadows is the place of the indifferent and ordinary and Tartarus is the place of the wicked. Elysium, while often compared to "heaven" (since, in the mind of the ancient Greek, there is no coming judgment, they have already been judged at death and will not be again), would actually equate to the Bosom of Abraham. Likewise, Tartarus would be likened to Gehenna. As a matter of fact, if I remember correctly, the word "Tartarus" does appear in Scripture. I can't remember where exactly (I don't have a search function for an online Greek Bible. I will try to hunt this down, however), but I believe I remember running across it. However, I don't believe the word "Elysium" is in Scripture, but instead the term "Paradise" appears in the English, which I believe is the word we derive from the Greek word used there. Of course, to Christianity, there are no "ordinary" or "indifferent" souls, and so the use of the Meadows is dropped in Christian eschatology.

That said, I don't see any reason to believe that the saints are actually in heaven now, prior to the judgment. I believe this is Roman Catholic teaching, however, since Catholicism teaches that the saints enjoy the Beatific Vision and can therefore intercede for us because they are in Heaven beholding God directly. I don't believe this to be sound, personally. If we, here on Earth, can intercede for one another, what stops the saints in Paradise from interceding for us from there? Is God not in Paradise just as much as He is in Heaven or upon the Earth? I believe that only Enoch, Elijah and the Theotokos are beholding the Beatific Vision currently, as they were assumed into Heaven. I also guess one could say that Christ is also beholding the Beatific Vision as a human being in Heaven, although it is Himself that he beholds, or rather He beholds the Father and the Spirit, but He shares in their divine nature as the Son and so it would be fundamentally different than one who is only human...interesting to ponder, though, isn't it?

Anyway, I have rambled on enough. I hope I said something insightful in all that! God bless.

P.S.

And silly me, I forgot to mention this little side note: The word Tartarus is used in certain Orthodox prayers! I don't recall off-hand which one(s), but I have seen it before in my Prayer Book (which is ROCOR). I'll see if I can find it again and maybe even hunt it down online and post a link.

[Brian Patrick Mitchell]

I believe that only Enoch, Elijah and the Theotokos are beholding the Beatific Vision currently, as they were assumed into Heaven.

The Beatific Vision is an RC concept and not a part of Orthodox understanding. The Orthodox would say instead that the saints participate in the life of God through the divine energeia; RCs lack the concept of energeia, and so the closest the saints can come to God is the Beatific Vision, which is, to our mind, still a view from afar. Prof. David Bradshaw at the University of Kentucky treats this difference at length in his book Aristotle East and West.

In Christ, Dn. Patrick

[Benjamin Amis]

The Beatific Vision is an RC concept and not a part of Orthodox understanding. The Orthodox would say instead that the saints participate in the life of God through the divine energeia; RCs lack the concept of energeia, and so the closest the saints can come to God is the Beatific Vision, which is, to our mind, still a view from afar. Prof. David Bradshaw at the University of Kentucky treats this difference at length in his book Aristotle East and West.

In Christ, Dn. Patrick

Thank you, Dn. Patrick. I have done a little reading concerning the divine energy, but it seems like I just can't make it stick in my head! It's quite different from the Western understanding that I'm doing my best to be trained out of.

In light of your correction, I would say that I believe only Enoch, Elijah and the Theotokos are in heaven. The RC would claim, and I see no reason why to disagree even if we don't use the term, that they are partaking of the Beatific Vision. They are in the presence of God in heaven. However, to Orthodox Christians, it's more than that. They partake of the divine energy and work with God, as St. Athanasius said, "God became man that man might become god."

However, I wouldn't say that only those in heaven partake of the energeia. Is it not through theosis that we come more and more to partake of the divine nature? In that sense, don't all Christians, to a greater or lesser degree, partake of the energeia, including those living, departed and in heaven? I'm not saying that you're arguing against this, I'm simply asking and trying to get a better handle on the teachings of the Church concerning this.

[Eric Peterson]

St. Nikodimos of the Holy Mountain says that, "The souls of both the righteous and the sinners, when they depart from the body, do not remain any longer upon earth and upon present things ehre, but directly go to the place where they are by God ordainted to be."

The respected theologian Nikolaos Vassiliadis, writing in "The Mystery of Death," says that "After death, therefore, the souls leave this world and journey to some 'place.' But this place must be understood in a spiritual, and not a material, sense...Those who lived their present life in virtue and were pleasing to God...in some spiritual place of happiness and blessedness. But those impious and unrepentant souls will be in the 'worse' place, where the deprivation of the good things enjoyed by the rightous well be a smoldering flame that burns thouse souls."
(in the chapter Where do the souls live after death?)

Other Fathers call the spiritual place wherein the righteous await the last judgment (if I'm correct in extrapolating this from the same chapter) heaven or paradise, and the spiritual place where the unrighteous await the same, hades. this, as I understand it, is the particular judgement.

In the same chapter of Vassiliadis, St. Nikodimos is quoted teaching that hades "is a place that has no form (invisible), as its very name denotes (Greek reference here), and it contains the invisible souls of dead people."

Vassiliadis has many helpful chapters and explanations. The book is over 500 pages. A little after the formerly mentioned section, there is one titled "How do the souls live there?" There being that middle state between death and the last judgement, if I am correct in my extrapolation.

"To begin with," Vassiliadis writes, "in that temporary state the righteous and the sinners live under different conditions." This is joy for the one, and sorrow for the other, basically.

The next section, "Those who have fallen asleep are aware of us and pray for us" talks of how the saints in heaven know our troubles and care for us. This is succinctly described, I think, in the title of the next section, "God reveals our needs to the righteous."

I think that in talks on what happens after death, there is much confusion. Certainly there is not a lot of information, and unfortunately some folks rely more on their own or others' opinions, which can also be confused. We tend, I think, to view heaven and hell as material, rather than spiritual places. Also, I think we have a confused notion of timeline--pre-Christ's resurrection, post Christ's resurrection, the state of souls after death, but prior to the last judgment coming after the general resurrection, and the final, eternal destination of souls. Quoting Scripture is good, but the Scriptures talk about all three of these states and are not always clear in themselves in an obvious way about which state they are speaking. To better understand, we need help from the Holy Fathers' teachings and interpretations.

"The Mystery of Death," as far as I've seen (haven't read the whole thing yet) does a pretty good job at explaining the teaching of the Church from the Holy Fathers on these subjects.

[Patrick]

I have yet to find a good explanation to:

Hebrews 12:23 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Hebrews+12%3A23)
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Where the OSB footnote says "This Kingdom is not earthly but heavenly, inhabited by angels (v. 22) as well as men".
If the Saints are not in Heaven (registered in Heaven or inhabited by angels and men) is the OSB footnote wrong, or more importantly this passage of Holy Scripture?

Also, what about icons? They are commonly called "windows into Heaven".
If the souls of Saints are not in Heaven, is this name wrong?

What about what Andreas posted about what Saint Basil said?
"
For what it's worth I mention this. In his 'Letter to Nectarius in Consolation', St Basil the Great, in seeking to comfort Nectarius and his wife (this Nectarius being assumed to be he who was Archbishop of Constantinople 381-397) on the untimely death of their only son, wrote, 'earth has not covered our beloved one, but heaven has received him'. In the original Greek, St Basil employs the word, 'ouranos'.
"
ouranos being the word for Heaven (I do not know Greek, but I suspect this word is also employed for Elias going to Heaven and the Lord ascending to Heaven because it also means sky) not just paradise. If ouranos means something else other than Heaven, St. Basil must have been wrong if he said the boy's soul went to Heaven

What about the quote from wikipedia?
"In the Eastern Orthodox Church a Saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not..."
If this definition is wrong, the article should be changed, should it not?

From this website (http://www.slocc.com/orthodoxy/saintstheotokos.html) (and a multitude of others with basically the same concepts):
"Those whom the Church officially recognizes as saints are only a small fraction of all the saints in heaven. Most of those who have gained the Kingdom of heaven are unknown to the world."
Why post saints are in heaven if they are not?

From here (http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/saints/saints_new/glorification.htm):
"As a Saint once related, he invoked all the saints to "Pray unto God for me a sinner." He at once experienced a vision, where he saw all the Angels and Saints in Heaven fall to their knees before the Divine Throne, and say together in unison, "Lord have mercy upon Thy servant!" May God grant us all the intercession of His Holy Saints and grant us also the grace to venerate these Holy Temples of His Presence wherein He dwells!"
It must have been a deceiving vision if he saw all the Saints fall to their knees before His Divine Throne if they are not there?

"Later still, the Bishops or Hierarchs of the Church, entrusted as they were with the responsibility to pray for everyone, were honoured as Saints after their repose in the Lord in the Church's belief that they continued in this their noble calling in Heaven."

"The Orthodox Church is characterized by its social spirituality which here means the community of Saints in Heaven and the community of Christians on earth."

As I remember, the Divine Liturgy is the participation of all Heaven and Earth in the worship and communion of God. This also includes all the Saints as well. So, they must be in Heaven?

Edit: Here (http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=70&Itemid=131)is another site, talking about soul sleep mostly, but here is an excerpt:
Part I

THE STATE OF THE SOUL AFTER DEATH

Does the soul, once it has left the body at the moment of physical death, remain conscious and aware of what is going on around it?
When we turn to the Scriptures, the fact of continued awareness of the soul after death is repeatedly borne out. Take, for instance, Hebrews 12:22-24: "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel". The words I have italicized in this passage refer to those God-loving souls who have passed from this life to be with Christ in the next. They are part of the Church in heaven (what some would call the "Church Triumphant"), living consciously with Christ, though still awaiting His Second Coming, when they will be clothed with their glorified bodies at the resurrection of the dead. Surely this passage would not say that in the Church's worship we are in the presence of angels, God the Father, Jesus, and "the spirits of just men made perfect" if these spirits were somehow inactive and unaware!

Edit: I also remember reading an explanation of icons that goes something like this: The Jewish temple was filled with icons of Cherubim (maybe more) but only Angels because at the time angels were the only beings in Heaven. We make icons of the Saints because they are now also in Heaven because Christ became man, glorified matter, and gave us eternal life. If I can find it, I'll post a hyperlink.

Here is the site (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/icon_faq.aspx) and the section of which I am referring:
9. Why were there only Icons of Cherubim, and not of Saints?


The Temple was an image of Heaven, as St. Paul makes clear:
"[the priests who serve in the Temple in Jerusalem] serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount" (Hebrews 8:5; cf. Exodus 25:40).
Before Christ came in the flesh and triumphed over death by His Resurrection, the Saints of the Old Testament were not in the presence of God in Heaven, but were in Sheol (often translated as "the grave", and translated as "hades" in Greek). Before Christ's Resurrection, Sheol was the destiny of both the just and the unjust (Genesis 37:35; Isaiah 38:10), though their lot there was by no means the same. As we see in Christ's parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31; cf. Enoch 22:8-15 [although the book of Enoch is not included in the Canon of Holy Scripture, it is a venerable part of Holy Tradition and is quoted in the Epistle of St. Jude, as well as in many of the writings of the holy fathers]) there was a gulf that separated the just from the unjust, and while the righteous were in a state of blessedness, the wicked were (and are) in a state of torment—the righteous awaited their deliverance through Christ's Resurrection, while the wicked fearfully awaited their judgment. Thus under the old covenant, prayers were said only for the departed, because they were not yet in heaven to intercede on our behalves. For as St. Paul said to the Hebrews when speaking of the Old Testament Saints, "And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us" (Hebrews 11:39-40). In Hebrews 12, St. Paul goes on to contrast the nature of the Old Covenant (12:18ff) with that of the New (12:22ff)—and among the distinctions he makes, he says that in the New Covenant we "are come unto... the spirits of just men made perfect (12:22-23). As both the Scriptures and the rest of Holy Tradition tell us, while Christ's body lay in the tomb, His Spirit descended into Sheol and proclaimed liberty to the captives (Ephesians 4:8-10; 1st Peter 3:19, 4:6; cf. Matthew 27:52-53). And these Saints that have triumphed over this world, now reign with Christ in Glory (2nd Timothy 2:12), and continually offer up prayers for us before the Lord (Revelation 5:8; the Martyrdom of St. Ignatius, Ch. 7 [St. Ignatius was one of the disciples of the Apostle John, and was made Bishop of Antioch by him]).
Thus, while in the Old Covenant, the Temple imaged heaven with only the attending Cherubim, in the New Covenant, our Temples image heaven with the great cloud of witnesses that now reside in glory there.

[Brian Patrick Mitchell]

However, I wouldn't say that only those in heaven partake of the energeia. Is it not through theosis that we come more and more to partake of the divine nature? In that sense, don't all Christians, to a greater or lesser degree, partake of the energeia, including those living, departed and in heaven?

That's correct. The Apostle Paul uses the word several times to mean the present in-working of God in those who believe:

"And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all." (1 Cor. 12:6)

"But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." (1 Cor. 12:11)

"Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily." (Col. 1:29)

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1 Thes. 2:13)

In Christ, Dn. Patrick

[M.C. Steenberg]

It is important to remember that the full reality of heaven, as also the full reality of hell, are eschatological. The fulness of the Kingdom does not precede the eternal and final judgement.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Patrick]

It is important to remember that the full reality of heaven, as also the full reality of hell, are eschatological. The fulness of the Kingdom does not precede the eternal and final judgement.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Obviously this is true, but the Saints have achieved deification (and still in Heaven). However, the deification the body is what awaits for them for the general resurrection. Here is a quote from "The Orthodox Church"



Deification is something that involves the body. Since man is a unity of body and soul, and since the Incarnate Christ has saved and redeemed the whole man, it follows that ‘man’s body is deified at the same time as his soul’ (Maximus, Gnostic Centuries, 2, 88 (P.G. 90, 1168A)). In that divine likeness which man is called to realize in himself, the body has its place. "Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit," wrote Saint Paul (1 Cor. 6:19). "Therefore, my brothers, I beseech you by God’s mercy to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice to God" (Romans 12:1). The full deification of the body must wait, however, until the Last Day, for in this present life the glory of the saints is as a rule an inward splendour, a splendour of the soul alone; but when the righteous rise from the dead and are clothed with a spiritual body, then their sanctity will be outwardly manifest. ‘At the day of Resurrection the glory of the Holy Spirit comes out from within, decking and covering the bodies of the saints — the glory which they had before, but hidden within their souls. What a man has now, the same then comes forth externally in the body’ (Homilies of Macarius, 5, 9. It is this transfigured ‘Resurrection body’ which the icon painter attempts symbolically to depict. Hence, while preserving the distinctive personal traits in a saint’s physiognomy he deliberately avoids making a realistic and ‘photographic’ portrait. To paint men exactly as they now appear is to paint them still in their fallen state, in their ‘earthy,’ not their ‘heavenly’ body). The bodies of the saints will be outwardly transfigured by divine light, as Christ’s body was transfigured on Mount Thabor. ‘We must look forward also to the springtime of the body’ (Minucius Felix (?late second century), Octavius, 34).

[Daniel FS]

I know that when the "normal" people die, they go to Hades and experience a foretaste of Heaven or Hell. However, what about the Saints? I have been told that their souls go to Heaven, but I have also been told that they are in Hades as well. I do not know which is true. I do know that in Hebrews 12:1 the Saints are described as thus:

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

My understanding is that the Saints go to Heaven. The righteous, but not holy enough to be a Saint, go to Hades to experience a foretaste of Heaven while the unrighteous foretaste Hell. Is this right and Orthodox, or do the Saints also go the Hades? Thank you.

Edit:
Here is another verse that made me understand my view the way I do.
Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Here (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/catechism_ext.htm) is a site that I found that describes much of what I stated. It is in the section called "communion of Saints".

Simply answer,

2Cor 12:2&4
2. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years agowhether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knowssuch a one was caught up to the third heaven (οὐρανοῦ=ouranou).
4. how he was caught up into Paradise (παράδεισον=paradeison) and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So, Paradise is part of Hades but also part of Heaven (the third Heaven), so if someone (and Father of Church) said "Heaven" it is meaning Paradise and Heaven --which above the Paradise, maybe 4th Heaven, 5th Heaven, and so on--.

Best Regard,
Daniel FS

[Evan]

It's my understanding that those who have put on Christ never have to see Sheol. The soul separates from the body upon their repose, and enters into heaven, before the throne, where it experiences something of the age to come. The souls of the righteous intercede for us before the throne, gathered together with all the angels-- such is the description given in Hebrews 12:22-24 and 7: 9-12 of the Apocalypse. However, the fullness of the kingdom is not experienced until the reunion of body and soul. The bodies of those who have been made temples of the Holy Spirit will be raised through the same Spirit. Those who have not will await the final judgment in Sheol, experiencing a foretaste of the wrath to come-- which, again, is not fully realized until the resurrection of the body.

In Christ,
Evan

[Marianthy]

I stumbled on this thread with much interest. I am not by any means a scholar on any subject pertaining to Orthodoxy, but I had a question. On Holy Saturday, when we hear the hymns of the "Patagos", or descent into hades, aren't we celebrating the broken gates? The icon shows Christ helping the faithful out of hades...why does it depict this?

[Antonios]

There is a wonderful book written by Archbishop Hilarion Alfeyev called Christ the Conqueror of Hell (http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Conqueror-Hell-Orthodox-Perspective/dp/0881410616)which answers this question very thoroughly. This book is a must read.

[Kosta]

Only the Theotokos has entered fully into paradise whose body was tranlated into heaven. Neither Elijah nor Enoch are in paradise for they still await death. The OT doesnt say Elijah was taken into heaven only that it looked like 'as if' he was taken to heaven. This is confirmed in scripture in John 3.13. Even the OT makes clear that he is still in the world, 2Chron 21.10- 12. The saints having a foretaste of the bliss are still the closest to God bbut have not entered into their full reward(Rev 6.11)

[Patrick]

It's my understanding that those who have put on Christ never have to see Sheol. The soul separates from the body upon their repose, and enters into heaven, before the throne, where it experiences something of the age to come. The souls of the righteous intercede for us before the throne, gathered together with all the angels-- such is the description given in Hebrews 12:22-24 and 7: 9-12 of the Apocalypse. However, the fullness of the kingdom is not experienced until the reunion of body and soul. The bodies of those who have been made temples of the Holy Spirit will be raised through the same Spirit. Those who have not will await the final judgment in Sheol, experiencing a foretaste of the wrath to come-- which, again, is not fully realized until the resurrection of the body.

In Christ,
Evan

This was exactly what my understanding was/is. I just had a difficult time trying to explain myself. I believe this was partly because I was much newer to the Faith than I am now, and by God's grace, I was granted more and better understanding on these matters so that I am now better able to communicate my beliefs.

When I first came to the Faith, I remember asking my Spiritual Father a similar question. He said something along the lines that we are all given over to Hades but experience our foretaste of Heaven or Hell. A few years later, and a couple of months ago, I asked this same exact question as on the forum, and I asked about the meaning of various Patristic texts. He says that I seem to be correct in my understanding that the Saints are indeed in Heaven/Paradise but do not experience the fullness of their rewards.

Here are some of the things I asked (with new things added that I've found over these past few months): (I realize that I might be doing a lot of repeating from my previous posts. I am sorry if it seems redundant, but they are from a very long time ago.)
I asked a question very similar to what Marianthy was talking about. One of the Hymns goes along the lines that "Hades was embittered for it was emptied".

I believe that through the Resurrection Christ opened Paradise to us once more. But, what was the point if we are all still in Hades except for a few (such as Elias, Enoch, and the Theotokos)?

St. Kyril of Jerusalem says that "not only had the Savior risen from the dead, but also raised the dead with Himself. And, in the person of these, the Prophet Hosea says this plainly."

St. Mark of Ephesus says that
"We say, then, that such a place, supercelestial and supermundane, noetic and bodiless, contains both the angels and the saints, and we are accustomed to call it Heaven." But he goes onto say that
"But if, as was said, no one has entered either the Kingdom or Gehenna..." (Bold mine)

Adding onto this, St. Gregory the Great does a wonderful job.
"If the souls of the just are already in heaven, how is it that they will receive the reward for their justice on the day of judgement? The just will indeed see an increase in their reward on the day of judgement, in as much as up till then they enjoyed only the bliss of the soul. After the judgement, however, they will also enjoy bodily bliss, for the body in which they suffered grief and torments will also share in their happiness. In regard to this double glory the Scriptures say, 'They shall receive double in their land.'"

In St. Theophylact's explanations of Luke(?), he gives a nice explanation. I do not have the book with me at the moment, so I can't copy some of it down. It was along the lines that the righteous are in paradise in freedom and bliss while the condemned are still in their prisons suffering a foretaste of their punishment.

[Marianthy]

Thank you!!

[Jason H.]

Here is a random quote from St. John of Kronstadt:


"God’s Saints are near to believing hearts and, like the truest and kindest of friends, are ready in a moment to help the faithful and pious who call upon them with faith and love.”

Ok, and another from St. John of Kronstadt:


“Therefore, how easy it is to communicate with the Saints! It is only necessary to purify the eye of the heart, to fix it firmly upon a Saint known to you, to pray to him for what you want, and you will obtain it.”

[Andreas Moran]

Looking over this thread, it is worth remembering that Hades/Sheol ceased to exist on Holy Saturday. As we repeatedly sing from the Vesperal Liturgy of St Basil on Holy Saturday through Matins of Pascha and after, and as the Paschal icon shows, Hades was despoiled. Thenceforth, the souls of the departed have, do and will (save those alive at the Second Coming) experience a foretaste of paradise or hell.

[Christophoros]

What happens to souls after death? According to the traditional teaching of the Orthodox Church, souls do not leave the earth immediately after their departure from the body. For three days they remain close to the earth and visit the places with which they were associated. Meanwhile, the living show particular consideration to the souls of the deceased by offering memorial prayers and funeral services. During these three days, the personal task of the living is to be reconciled with the departed, to forgive them and to ask their forgiveness.

With the passing of three days the souls of the departed ascend to the Judge in order to undergo their personal trial. Righteous souls are then taken by the angels and brought to the threshold of Paradise, which is called ‘Abraham’s bosom’: there they remain waiting for the Last Judgment. Sinners, on the other hand, find themselves ‘in Hell’, ‘in torments’ (cf. Luke 16:22-23). But the final division into the saved and the condemned will actually take place at the universal Last Judgment, when ‘many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt’ (Dan.12:2). Before the Last Judgment, the righteous souls anticipate the joy of Paradise, while the souls of sinners anticipate the torments of Gehenna.

- The Mystery of Faith, by Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev), http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/5_1#THE_END_OF_HISTORY

[Andreas Moran]

Whilst there is not complete uniformity of teaching about what happens to the soul after death, I was taught that the soul undergoes the partial judgment on the fortieth day after the expiry of the body which is why prayers for the departed on the fortieth day are so essential. I have the impression that this is the prevalent opinion of Fathers ancient and modern.

[Jack R.]

Did our Lord Jesus emty Hades Completely of all those who were in it when He descended into it through the cross?

Did He save only the OLD Testament Saints and bring them from Hades to Paradise?

Did He save the Old Testament Saints and those who were disobedeint during the days of Noah, as St. Peter taught and leave the rest in Hades?

[Andreas Moran]

The Holy Fathers are not agreed about whether all souls in sheol/hades followed Christ or not.

[Kosta]

Hades was not emptied but more accurately transformed. It is under the dominion of God and no longer under the devil, the wall of seperation being shattered, its gates destroyed and its ruler bound and cast out.

The lingering soul is simply pious opinion. A soul may linger only if God allows it to for a specific reason, as St Mark of Ephesus made reference to. The 3rd, 9th and 40th day memorials have nothing to do with the souls ascent but are symbolic as explained in the apostolic canons and bby St. Symeon of Thessaloniki. The 40th day is simply the ancient custom as observed for the departure of Moses and taken from the burial customs of the ancient egyptians.

[Alice]

by St. John Maximovich:

Therefore, panikhidas (i.e., Trisagion Prayers for the Dead) and prayer at home for the dead are beneficial to them, as are good deeds done in their memory, such as alms or contributions to the church. But especially beneficial for them is commemoration at the Divine Liturgy. There have been many appearances of the dead and other occurrences which confirm how beneficial is the commemoration of the dead. Many who died in repentance, but who were unable to manifest this while they were alive, have been freed from tortures and have obtained repose. In the Church prayers are ever offered for the repose of the dead, and on the day of the Descent of the Holy Spirit, in the kneeling prayers at vespers, there is even a special petition "for those in hell."

Every one of us who desires to manifest his love for the dead and give them real help, can do this best of all through prayer for them, and particularly by commemorating them at the Liturgy, when the particles which are cut out for the living and the dead are let fall into the Blood of the Lord with the words: "Wash away, O Lord, the sins of those here commemorated by Thy Precious Blood and by the prayers of Thy saints."

We can do nothing better or greater for the dead than to pray for them, offering commemoration for them at the Liturgy. Of this they are always in need, and especially during those forty days when the soul of the deceased is proceeding on its path to the eternal habitations. The body feels nothing then: it does not see its close ones who have assembled, does not smell the fragrance of the flowers, does not hear the funeral orations. But the soul senses the prayers offered for it and is grateful to those who make them and is spiritually close to them.

[Kosta]

The russians tend to attribute more superstition to the 40 days than the greeks, as they more readily accept the sensational aspects of the toll houses.

[Alice]

The russians tend to attribute more superstition to the 40 days than the greeks, as they more readily accept the sensational aspects of the toll houses.

While we don't really know about the toll houses (or really much else about the experience after death), I do not read them into what St. John Maximovitch is saying above-- and as a life long 100% Greek, I can say with all assuredness that it is VERY Greek to offer the 40 day mnymosino and to pray for the dead always, in private and by offering their names at Proskomide. No Greek Orthodox person ever skips over this important milestone of prayer for their beloved.

We must not write off the Church's wisdom as 'superstition'.

In Christ,
Alice

[Kosta]

No, what i mean is russians who take toll houses literally believe the 3rd,9th and 40 day memorials corresponds to the souls ascent. That on the third day the soul leaves the earth and for the next 37 days it goes through the expanses of the sky till it reaches heaven. This is what St John of Shanghai is relating in the bold face part of your post. Greek theologians dismiss this and their explanations regarding the toll houses or the memorial services never equate the memorial service with the soul's journey.
Some greeks have a pious opinion that on the 40th day the soul leaves earth and enters heaven, the way the hebrews wandered 40 years before entering the promised land, and how Christ remained on earth 40 days before ascending.

But none of these opinions are found in the apostolic constitutions, or hymns and services of the memorial services. St Symeon of Thessaloniki who was a liturgists never equates the memorial service as evidence of a lingering soul.

[Yolanda]

Anthony the Great, Life of St Anthony - by St Athanasius of Alexandria (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/vita-antony.html)

66. And he had also this favour granted him. For as he was sitting alone on the mountain, if ever he was in perplexity in his meditations, this was revealed to him by Providence in prayer. And the happy man, as it is written, was taught of God [14]. After this, when he once had a discussion with certain men who had come to him concerning the state of the soul and of what nature its place will be after this life, the following night one from above called him, saying, 'Antony, rise, go out and look.' Having gone out therefore (for he knew whom he ought to obey) looking up, he beheld one standing and reaching to the clouds, tall, hideous, and fearful, and others ascending as though they were winged. And the figure stretched forth his hands, and some of those who were ascending were stayed by him, while others flew above, and having escaped heavenward, were borne aloft free from care. At such, therefore, the giant gnashed his teeth, but rejoiced over those who fell back. And forthwith a voice came to Antony, 'Understandest thou what thou seest?' And his understanding was opened, and he understood that it was the passing of souls, and that the tall being who stood was the enemy who envies the faithful. And those whom he caught and stopped from passing through are accountable to him, while those whom he was unable to hold as they passed upwards had not been subservient to him. So having seen this, and as it were being reminded, he struggled the more daily to advance towards those things which were before. And these visions he was unwilling to tell, but as he spent much time in prayer, and was amazed, when those who were with him pressed him with questions and forced him, he was compelled to speak, as a father who cannot withhold ought from his children. And he thought that as his conscience was clear, the account would be beneficial for them, that they might learn that discipline bore good fruit, and that visions were oftentimes the solace of their labours.

[Vincent M.]

No, what i mean is russians who take toll houses literally ...

With respect, this is misleading and intellectually dishonest.

No one takes the toll houses "literally." They are a way of describing the experience of the soul after death, and this is consistent with all of the teachings of the desert fathers, hymnography, etc. of the Church. St Ignatius Brianchaninov (sp?), St John of San Francisco, Fr Seraphim Rose, etc. have all shown this to a great extent in their words/works on the afterlife.

[Mary Horey]

I'm surprised that the Orthodox Church doesn't seem to have a definite teaching about this very fundamental topic-- at least not a teaching that is so widespread that adherents don't have to consult wikipedia.

fyi, I've found serious errors on wikipedia in articles that were "protected from editing." One cannot edit these articles unless one has edited 10 articles in at least 4 days. Attempts to correct articles result in a vicious circle of links.

One error had to do with a falsification of the history and purpose of the American Life League (a pro-life organization). Another error said that the Catholic Church used the Donation of Constantine to try to assert power and control over western Europe. That is a lie. A copy of the Donation was found in a French monastery at the time Pepin. It was never used at all, for anything other than a curiosity.

[Herman Blaydoe]

God did not give us Wikipedia. God gave us bishops. I have to assume He did so for a reason. One does well not to rely on Wikipedia as an authority, it is not going to be held to account like bishops are. One does best who looks to one's bishop for authority. If one wants to know the Orthodox teaching, ask the nearest Orthodox bishop. That is their job, that is why they get to wear the funny hats.

As to the Donation of Constantine and how it was or was not used; THAT is documented in a plethora of places besides Wikipedia, and is outside the scope of this forum in that it is certainly NOT a patristic document at any rate.

Herman the moderator-hat wearing Pooh

[Herman Blaydoe]

With respect, this is misleading and intellectually dishonest.

No one takes the toll houses "literally." They are a way of describing the experience of the soul after death, and this is consistent with all of the teachings of the desert fathers, hymnography, etc. of the Church. St Ignatius Brianchaninov (sp?), St John of San Francisco, Fr Seraphim Rose, etc. have all shown this to a great extent in their words/works on the afterlife.

I have to say that, like most overly general comments, this is not exactly true. Unfortunately there ARE those Orthodox Christians who do indeed take the toll houses very literally indeed. I would not call them authoritative, but they do exist, trust me.

[Herman Blaydoe]

I'm surprised that the Orthodox Church doesn't seem to have a definite teaching about this very fundamental topic.

Here I share, with some tailoring to suit the context, words from a post by Archimandrite Irenei from another thread. If I have butchered it too badly, hopefully he will correct and/or add as necessary:

The Church is not a factory of intellectual clones, and the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of many and varied people ... Particularly when one is looking at a practice that has numerous foundations, different people will focus on different aspects in different contexts. ... If I can put things quite boldly and directly for a rhetorical moment: to say that something is over-emphasised because not everyone speaks of it in the same manner, would be to affirm that nothing can be spoken of emphatically or securely, since there is essentially nothing in the Church that is articulated through a voice of uniform expression among individual pastors, theologians, saints. This could be considered a 'weakness', but in fact it is precisely the heart and soul of the Church's patristic heritage: common vision in personal expression. We do not look for uniformity of expression to confirm a things worth; we look for the living concensus of the Church in her fathers, which reveals and articulates the truth.

[Kosta]

With respect, this is misleading and intellectually dishonest.

No one takes the toll houses "literally." They are a way of describing the experience of the soul after death, and this is consistent with all of the teachings of the desert fathers, hymnography, etc. of the Church. St Ignatius Brianchaninov (sp?), St John of San Francisco, Fr Seraphim Rose, etc. have all shown this to a great extent in their words/works on the afterlife.

I hope most dont take it literally, but it seems that some do. I agree that St Ignaty , St John of Shanghai, Fr Seraphim Rose wrote of the toll house including how the journey of the ascent begins on the third day and takes 37 days to reach the heavenly abode, i also disagree with them. St John's writing on the toll houses are extremely problematic and the saint even contradicts himself in it. St John's belief that the Theotokos feared the toll houses and so prayed her Son to recieve her to avoid them is basically rejected by all theologians. Hierotheos Vlachos account of the toll house is a kind of damage control omitting St John's more controversial aspects. There is no tradition in the feast of the Dormition or hymns to support the Theotokos was aware and feared the accusing demons.

There is no service of the church that teaches the 3rd, 9th and 40th day memorials are prayed so the departed soul may pass through or be rescued from a toll house. The apostolic canons are clear that the 3rd day memorial is to remember the third day ressurection and the Triune God, the 9th day memorial is because there are 9 choirs of angels and saints and we hope the deceased is counted among this heavenly host, and the 40th day memorial is to observe the ancient custom found in the OT.

As far as accounts of the Fathers that seem to speak of toll houses and hymns which speak of demons at the hour of death, these are explained in St Gregory's dialogues. The same dialogues which speak of how some souls are discharged from all fear at death, how some souls are visted and escorted to heaven by the apostles, how pious virgins are consoled by the Theotokos at the moment of death, how some see demons on their deathbed as a last minute attempt allowed by God for the dying sinner to repent etc.