Christ's suffering

[Annalise Kockott]

Dear all

I have a difficult question, posed to me by someone and I did not know how to answer: We were discussing suffering and the suffering of people we love. She asked me: If Christ knew he was going to eternal peace with his Father in heaven after death, then how can we say that his suffering was so terrible? Even though as Christians, we hope for the same when we die, we cannot know this: we have faith that it is so, but unlike Christ, not certain knowledge.

Thanking you for your thoughts,

Annalise

[Niko T.]

I'm by no means an authority, and this might not address your question directly, but the following quote from the Ladder of Divine Ascent (Step 5 on repentance) by St. John Klimakos might have some bearing on the subject:

"Some often expressed their doubts to each other and said: 'Are we accomplishing anything brothers? [I] Are we obtaining our requests? Will the Lord accept us again? Will He open to us?' And to this others would reply: 'Who knows, as our brothers the Ninevites said, if God will repent and will deliver us even from great punishment? In any case, let us do our part. And if he opens the door, well and good. And if not, blessed is the Lord God who, in His justice, has closed the door to us. At least let us persist in knocking at the door till the end of our life. Perhaps He will open to us for our great assiduity and importunity."

Thus, the repenting monks that St. John mentions, who were undergoing their own "martyrdoms" in asceticism and repentance, appear unmoved by the thought that might not be accepted in the end. They suffer so many torments solely out of self-less, burning love for God.

[Irene]

Suffering is suffering.

In a small way ..... I know that the migraines that I struggle with will end and I will enjoy freedom from pain but that does not make the pain any less unbearable at the time.

What He went through, with the body of a mortal, was unbearable and unbelievable suffering. Think of the unbearable temptation to give up and say well enough is enough I'm not going to put up with this anymore. He endured, not for His sake but for our sakes.

I don't know how to put it better, but that is my thoughts.

Irene

[Ryan]

I think this question is pretty well addressed in this thread (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6073) which popped up almost simultaneously.

[Seda S.]

I've read somewhere that the Lord's suffering was more terrible than ours because though He was God, yet for His great love for us, He allowed His humanity to suffer without any help from Divinity, as if His divinity was 'silent' at that time, as if He was left by God, because of which He cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" While when we suffer, we always have some help and consolation from God. He never allows us to suffer more than we can bear. Besides, we suffer being sinful, while He suffered being sinless and for the sins of all humanity. In His suffering He bore the consequence of sins of the whole human race, and accordingly His suffering was so great that no one has ever suffered like Him.

[Andreas Moran]

It is important to see Christ's suffering as entailing far more than physical suffering. To compare Christ's scourging and the few hours on the Cross (which many in Roman times suffered) with the years of suffering some people have to endure misses the point. It is also why Mel Gibson's film missed the point. Christ did not use His divinity to attenuate His suffering. On the contrary, it is how He could embrace the whole of human suffering. The weight of what He took upon Him we cannot begin to imagine. The clue, I think, is in the teaching of St Gregory the Theologian: that which He has not assumed He has not healed. His suffering goes outside time and space: the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. His suffering was so great because He assumed all our suffering. Christ's suffering, with His descent into Hades and His resurrection provided healing for the whole world. And does not Christ suffer when the works of His hands suffer? This is the extent of His love. Suffering is the criterion of love. The suffering that Christ endured for our sakes was far greater than any human suffering and this was only possible through the Incarnation, because He was God and man.

[Antonios]

I would add to Andreas' poignant post that the Son knew through His divinity that His physical and emotional suffering on the Cross would lead to eternal peace with His Father. Yet, it was not His divinity which suffered at all. It was in His human emotional fears and somatic pain which He suffered to heal our own fears and pain. In this way, Christ suffered as man, but different in one important regard: The passion of Christ was total and complete suffering in the flesh, to every single atom of His Person. To the point of sweating blood! His entire flesh was suffering such as no one has or ever will, because it was complete and perfect suffering. Enough to once and for all destroy sin and death and restore to us true righteousness with God.

[Vasiliki D.]

How can we say that his suffering was so “terrible”?

In this context, “terrible” is really used as an exclamation and not a description. I don’t know how to verbalise this very well but the answer lies not in our common usage of the word terrible and how a person interprets/understands this word in its other contexts. “Terrible” is an exclamation and not a description


Psalm 99:3 – Let them praise thy great and terrible name; for it is holy.

It is not just His name that is “holy” and “terrible” but “everything” that He has done is “holy” and “terrible”:

He created everything – that is terrible.
He created man – that is terrible.
He – in the person of His Son – willingly took on His own creations flesh to release them from the bondage of death by dying – that is terrible!

I have another way to put "terrible" - WOW!

If someone stops to reflect on that very last point … it is “mind-boggling” if we consider that. I personally do not find the English word “terrible” is the most convincing word to describe this selfless act of the Creator but what word really can give justice to this testimony of His love for something that is beneath Him but elevated by Him … its amazing.

WOW! That is TERRIBLE and WONDEROUS and AMAZING!

If we reflect and understand Scripture with “physical or worldly” eyes and reasoning then we miss the point and we miss the inner and deeper messages that are “spiritual and divine” and lead us to salvation …

Forgive me if the tone is wrong ... I dont know who to express it any better and I know I have read the Fathers reflect on the entire act of Christ assuming flesh and allowing himself to be martyred for our sakes as wonderous and worthy not just of reflection but glorifying his wonderous name ...

[Nina]

Link (http://www.trueorthodoxy.info/pat_what_christ_pray_about_stjohnmaximovitch.shtml ) to a great article by St. John of St. Francisco about the suffering of Christ.