Christ's human knowledge

[Christopher Dombrowski]

I was just reading about the Agnoetae (wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnoetae), orthodoxwiki (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Agnoetai)), who were condemned by Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria, whose condemnation was also ratified by Pope Gregory the Great. This reality got me thinking about the topic. What is the Orthodox understanding of knowledge in the Incarnate Word? Is there only one type and level of knowledge within Him, that being the infinite divine knowledge? Or is there, on a certain level, two degrees and types of knowledge in Him, the knowledge He finds in His human nature being distinct from that which he finds in His divine nature? Is it possible that Christ knows all in His divine nature but in a paradoxical fashion also experiences ignorance in His human nature?

[Andrew Duncan Comb]

I was just reading about the Agnoetae (wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnoetae), orthodoxwiki (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Agnoetai)), who were condemned by Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria, whose condemnation was also ratified by Pope Gregory the Great. This reality got me thinking about the topic. What is the Orthodox understanding of knowledge in the Incarnate Word? Is there only one type and level of knowledge within Him, that being the infinite divine knowledge? Or is there, on a certain level, two degrees and types of knowledge in Him, the knowledge He finds in His human nature being distinct from that which he finds in His divine nature? Is it possible that Christ knows all in His divine nature but in a paradoxical fashion also experiences ignorance in His human nature?

This topic leaves me a bit confused, I will have to get down to a bit of study on this, thought provoking, and thought inspiring.

[Nina]

I was just reading about the Agnoetae (wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnoetae), orthodoxwiki (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Agnoetai)), who were condemned by Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria, whose condemnation was also ratified by Pope Gregory the Great. This reality got me thinking about the topic. What is the Orthodox understanding of knowledge in the Incarnate Word? Is there only one type and level of knowledge within Him, that being the infinite divine knowledge? Or is there, on a certain level, two degrees and types of knowledge in Him, the knowledge He finds in His human nature being distinct from that which he finds in His divine nature? Is it possible that Christ knows all in His divine nature but in a paradoxical fashion also experiences ignorance in His human nature?

Metropolitan Hierotheos of Naupaktos writes in his books about these questions while quoting the Fathers of the Church.

[Olga]

Christopher, a look at the vigil service for the feast of the Raising of Lazarus will give you the answer. It addresses the seeming paradox of the all-knowing Son of God asking Martha and Mary where Lazarus' tomb was.

[Olga]

Here are relevant selections from the matins of Lazarus' Saturday:

Sessional hymn, after the Polyeleos:

O Fountain of wisdom and foreknowledge, You asked the companions of Martha when You came to Bethany: Where have you laid my friend Lazarus? Shedding for him tears of tender love, You called to him in Your compassion and raised him by Your voice, though he was four days dead; for You are Giver of Life and Lord.

Ode 1, second canon

O Christ, You became man, taking human nature from the Virgin, and as man You asked where Lazarus was buried, although as God You were not ignorant of this.

Ode 3, first canon:

Displaying Your two energies, O Saviour, You made manifest Your two natures: for You are both God and man.

Though You are the Abyss of knowledge, You asked where they have laid the body of Lazarus. For it was Your purpose, O Giver of Life, to raise him from the dead.

Going from one place to another as a mortal man, You have appeared circumscribed; but, as God uncircumscribed, You fill all things.

Ode 3, second canon:

O Lord who works miracles, standing in Bethany by the tomb of Lazarus, You shed tears for him in accordance with the law of nature, confirming the full reality of the flesh which You have taken, O Jesus my God.

First ypakoi:

The sisters of Lazarus stood beside Christ and, lamenting with bitter tears, they said to Him: “O Lord, Lazarus is dead.” And though as God He knew the place of burial, yet He asked them, “Where have you laid him?” Coming to the tomb, He called Lazarus that was four days dead; and he arose and worshipped the Lord who had raised him.

Second ypakoi:

Foreknowing all things as Creator, You warned the disciples at Bethany, saying: “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep today.” And, though You were not ignorant, You asked: “Where have you laid him?” Weeping as a man, You prayed to the Father; You called Your friend Lazarus from hell, O Lord, and raised him when he had been four days dead. Therefore we cry to You: Accept, O Christ our God, the praise we dare to offer, and count us all worthy of Your glory.

Ode 6, second canon:

As true God You knew of the falling asleep of Lazarus and announced it beforehand to Your disciples, giving them a proof, O Master, of the infinite power of Your divinity.

You who are by nature uncircumscribed was circumscribed in the flesh; coming to Bethany, O Master, as man You weep over Lazarus, and by Your power as God You raise him on the fourth day from the dead.

Ode 7, first canon:

Weeping as a man in Your compassion, You have as God raised Lazarus from the tomb; and, delivered from hell, he cried aloud: “Blessed are You, O Lord our God, to all ages.”

Ode 8, second canon:

As man You pray to the Father, as God You raise Lazarus. Therefore, O Christ, we sing Your praises forever.

Ode 9, second canon:

You walk and weep and speak, my Saviour, showing the action of Your human nature; and, revealing Your divine nature, You raise Lazarus.

In ways beyond words, my Master and Saviour, You have brought about my salvation by the free will exercised in each of Your two natures.

From the Praises:

O Christ, who is the Resurrection and the Life of man, standing by the tomb of Lazarus You have confirmed our faith in Your two natures, O forbearing Lord, proving that You were born from the pure Virgin as both God and man. For as man You asked, “Where is he buried?” and as God by Your life-giving command You raised him from the dead on the fourth day.

Plenty of food for thought.

[Paul Cowan]

Christ as a child was in the temple 3 days without His parents. He was astounding the wisdom of the elders. I have heard it said that Christ's knowledge was revealed in such a way so He would not seem to be a "monster" with an unrealsitic but very well versed intellect for His age; whenever that age might be.

Paul

[Olga]

Christ as a child was in the temple 3 days without His parents. He was astounding the wisdom of the elders. I have heard it said that Christ's knowledge was revealed in such a way so He would not seem to be a "monster" with an unrealsitic but very well versed intellect for His age; whenever that age might be.

Christ's all-knowing intelligence is also consistently expressed in canonical iconography, whether in icons of the Mother of God, or by Himself as Christ Emmanuel (the latter a form which, interestingly, does not seem to have an equivalent in non-Orthodox religious art). The Christ-child is never shown iconographically as a generic, helpless baby, but as an all-knowing divine Child. Small in stature, but full of divine wisdom. One of the few examples of post-schism western religious art which comes close to showing this divine omniscience is William Bouguereau's Virgin and Child, painted in 1888:

http://www.artchive.com/artchive/b/bouguereau/bouguereau_virgin.jpg

[Jeff Daly]

First of all, I'm new here to the forum, so hello ^_^

I think the best book on Christology I've read is "On the Incarnation" by St Athanasius the Great. He actually discusses what the implications are of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity taking upon Himself a human nature, and I think it might be helpful to quote him here.

"The Word was not hedged in by His body, nor did His presence in the body prevent His being present elsewhere as well. When He moved His body He did not cease also to direct the universe by His Mind and might. No. The marvelous truth is, that being the Word, so far from being Himself contained by anything, He actually contained all things Himself. In creation He is present everywhere, yet is distinct in being from it; ordering, directing, giving life to all, containing all, yet is He Himself the Uncontained, existing solely in His Father. As with the whole, so also is it with the part. Existing in a human body, to which He Himself gives life, He is still Source of life to all the universe, present in every part of it, yet outside the whole; and He is revealed both through the works of His body and through His activity in the world. It is, indeed, the function of soul to behold things that are outside the body, but it cannot energize or move them. A man cannot transport things from one place to another, for instance, merely by thinking about them; nor can you or I move the sun and the stars just by sitting at home and looking at them. With the Word of God in His human nature, however, it was otherwise. His body was for Him not a limitation, but an instrument, so that He was both in it and in all things, and outside all things, resting in the Father alone. At one and the same time—this is the wonder— as Man He was living a human life, and as Word He was sustaining the life of the universe, and as Son He was in constant union with the Father. Not even His birth from a virgin, therefore, changed Him in any way, nor was He defiled by being in the body. Rather, He sanctified the body by being in it. For His being in everything does not mean that He shares the nature of everything, only that He gives all things their being and sustains them in it. Just as the sun is not defiled by the contact of its rays with earthly objects, but rather enlightens and purifies them, so He Who made the sun is not defiled by being made known in a body, but rather the body is cleansed and quickened by His indwelling, "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth."
"You must understand, therefore, that when writers on this sacred theme speak of Him as eating and drinking and being born, they mean that the body, as a body, was born and sustained with the food proper to its nature; while God the Word, Who was united with it, was at the same time ordering the universe and revealing Himself through His bodily acts as not man only but God. Those acts are rightly said to be His acts, because the body which did them did indeed belong to Him and none other; moreover, it was right that they should be thus attributed to Him as Man, in order to show that His body was a real one and not merely an appearance. From such ordinary acts as being born and taking food, He was recognized as being actually present in the body; but by the extraordinary acts which He did through the body He proved Himself to be the Son of God. That is the meaning of His words to the unbelieving Jews: "If I do not the works of My Father, believe Me not; but if I do, even if ye believe not Me, believe My works, that ye may know that the Father is in Me and I in the Father."

[Benjamin Martin]

Is it possible that Christ knows all in His divine nature but in a paradoxical fashion also experiences ignorance in His human nature?

Hello Christopher Dombrowski

Omniscience all knowing - Jesus Christ through the voluntary act of emptying himself to the non-use of his divine right and position of glory and power he had with the Father. And was able to exercise it's used by subordination in the office position of Mediator between God and humans. He sometimes operated in the sphere of his humanity and other times in the sphere of his deity. In some occasions by his office position of Mediatorship had authority to knowest (Gr. eido) which means "to know of anything;" (John 16:30, Matthew 17:24-27) he knew all things and operated in the divine sphere to the extent that it was necessary for him to accomplish the Father's pre-ordained purpose that is in the determined eternal plan of salavation or to openly demonstrate his deity.

Intellectual limitation - Jesus Christ through his personal experiences contain the ability of increasing in knowledge, to have a continuous intellectual development, and improvement of skills. He is restricted in knowledge for its a life-long process of knoweth (Gr. eido) which means "to know of anything," (Mark 13:32, 11:13) learning and exploring the world around him. Because learning is part of his daily life from his culture, his environment, and his surroundings by obtaining knowledge by observation. His ministry was his professional career and business by learning in social skills, humbling himself to restrictions and limitations, and accepting the adaption to change if needed.

This would appear to be a paradoxical, right?

The answer is found in the subordination is a willingness submission to authority. Which the position of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit in the Godhead is still co-equal, co-eternal, and co-power. And there is a subordination given from the Father person to the Son person to the Holy Spirit person. Which has an humble order revealed by their persons demonstrated through the operation - the Father send the Son and both the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit - which makes Father first, the Son second, and the Holy Spirit third of office in relation to mankind.

The Father send the Son as an emissary which the Son was empowered by the Father to act in His stead. The Son who become an employee and has certain obligation to perform in a specific operation. But the Son person remains distinct from the Father person who is the Son's employer. The Father and the Son both send the Holy Spirit. Which the Holy Spirit employee through the Son to the Father who is the employer.

In the office position Christ only speaks knowledge in accordance of what the Fathers reveals- John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

In the office position Holy Spirit only speaks knowledge in accordance of what the Fathers reveals to Christ- John 16:13-15 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shew it unto you.

The Holy Spirit position in office is to operate only in accordance to what he hear the Son is speaking. He will not speak of himself but will glorify the Son only. This is not because the Holy Spirit is not omniscience but he is also limited to the office position to the Son unto the Father. This only works in accordance to what the Father want us to have knowledge in concerning his good pleasure and will.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[1]. He is called: Spirit of truth
[2]. His office: Guide you into all truth
[3]. How does he do this: He shall not speak of himself
a). whatsoever he shall hear
b). speak only things he hears
c). show you things to come by guiding you into it in all truth

To the point of Christ's omniscience-
John 16:14,15 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine (Son's ownership): therefore said I, (the Son) that he (the Holy Spirit) shall take of mine (Holy Spirit's ownship), and shew it unto you.

Even though, the Son and the Holy Spirit are omniscience. But they have to follow a certain order. The scriptures tell us that all things that the Father has the Son has ownership. Through the subordination (a chain of command so to speak), the Holy Spirit takes ownship of everything the Son has from the Father. It's true, that in this office position it doesn't go to the extent of being omniscience in Christ through the Holy Spirit.

It only works according to the eternal purpose of the Father's good pleasure and will to mankind. ONLY IN THE OFFICE POSITION the Son and the Holy Spirit choose not to know certain knowledge that the Father only knows. Only in accordance of what the Father want to reveal about his purpose for mankind. He will give to the Son and the Son will give to the Holy Spirit. The Son is basically saying that all things the Father has are in my ownership. And the Holy Spirit takes ownship of all things of the Son has to the Father. Which is only in accordance to what the Father has purposed through his employee to mankind.

All this has nothing to do with Hypostasis Union but with Office Position.