Charnel houses / monastic practices of burying the dead

[Paul Cowan]

I was looking at Michael C's album (http://www.monachos.net/forum/album.php?albumid=91&pictureid=507)and came across a picture of this monastery's Charnel house.

My first thought was why do they detach the lower jaw bones, but then I wondered for the purpose of them at all. I realize monasteries have limited space for their dead, why mark them and stack them? There are very few pictures on the net (probably for good reason), but all those I ahve seen are stacked rather haphazardly almost as if they are tossed in to a cornerwith 100's of other skulls.

When I visited Simonopetra I was shown a pit with the bones in them, but not the skulls. Are they trying to preserve the identities for a reason or out of respect or why? Are these similar to mainland cemeteries?

I did come across this one journalist's story (http://www.denverpost.com/travel/ci_10441425), bless is heart, for a non Orthodox he did "try" to get all he saw correct. The first give-away he is not Orthodox was he called the priest "brother" and then, though he does try to remain true to the scene, he does miss a few other details. But if one is not Orthodox, I guess it is hard to edit yourself.

Anyway, I would be interested to know more about Charnel houses and their use, function, purpose and how they fit into the life of the monastery.

Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

I was looking at Michael C's album (http://www.monachos.net/forum/album.php?albumid=91&pictureid=507)and came across a picture of this monastery's Charnel house.

My first thought was why do they detach the lower jaw bones, but then I wondered for the purpose of them at all. I realize monasteries have limited space for their dead, why mark them and stack them? There are very few pictures on the net (probably for good reason), but all those I ahve seen are stacked rather haphazardly almost as if they are tossed in to a cornerwith 100's of other skulls.

When I visited Simonopetra I was shown a pit with the bones in them, but not the skulls. Are they trying to preserve the identities for a reason or out of respect or why? Are these similar to mainland cemeteries?

I did come across this one journalist's story (http://www.denverpost.com/travel/ci_10441425), bless is heart, for a non Orthodox he did "try" to get all he saw correct. The first give-away he is not Orthodox was he called the priest "brother" and then, though he does try to remain true to the scene, he does miss a few other details. But if one is not Orthodox, I guess it is hard to edit yourself.

Anyway, I would be interested to know more about Charnel houses and their use, function, purpose and how they fit into the life of the monastery.

Paul

Paul, I don't know about the charnel houses of monasteries, but I can give you an account of the one attached to our city cemetery. Our cemetery is quite small, so most graves are emptied after 3 years. Sometimes this period is longer.

There is a lot of ceremony involved. The ceremony itself is only attended by female relatives. I have been to 4 or 5 of these ceremonies I think and I suppose you get used to it. The night before the blessing, the bones are washed by close female relatives with wine and placed in a basket. The basket is placed above the empty grave and covered with a pure white, lace edged cloth. A favourite icon is placed on top of the cloth. The next morning the priest blesses the bones and sprinkles boiled wheat and wine on them. They are then placed in a special box with the deceased's information on the outside and usually a photo. This box is then placed in the charnel house. Relatives visit and light candles inside the charnel house for their deceased ones.

I have only visited our charnel house once and that was enough for me. I am the last person to fantasize and carry on, but for the first and only time in my life I had a panic attack - at least I think that is what it was. The walls, which were stacked with these boxes, seemed to move and come towards me and I thought that the boxes were going to fall down on me.
I got out as soon as possible. I don't know why I had this reaction - as I said, this was a unique experience for me.

Death is a normal experience for even young children here - nothing is hidden but it took a while for me to get used to seeing the bones of someone I knew and loved. Something that is interesting (!!!) - the stainless steel pins or marbles that are placed in old ladies hips when they fall and break them are good as new when they are dug up.................

Now after that vital piece of information, I have to say that the above experience can be traumatic for younger children.
Seeing the bones of her father gave one girl (a niece) such a shock that she had nightmares for months after - she kept dreaming that the bones were lying on her chest and that she couldn't breathe. So, while ensuring that children know that death is a normal part of life, they should also be protected from too much knowledge.

All in all though, perhaps the way death is dealt with here is healthier than denying that it exists.

Effie

[Paul Cowan]

Thank you Effie for this practical practise. I can assure you this would NEVER be done here. It would be unheard of and our governmrnt health services would have a fit if it were even attempted. If you will permit me a few questions out of curiosity (not morbidity I hope)...

Why sprinkle the bones with Koliva and wine before storage? Would this not encourage rodents?
How do the women get past the eewwww factor? Are the bones free of all decayed flesh or do they have to handle this and scrub it off? I have never seen anyone once they are buried so have no idea. We bury people in 24 carat gold hermetically sealed, silk lined, luxuriously padded beds of eternal blissfulness. And of course in whatever color you choose.

What do you bury in? I am thinking of ordering a simple pine box (http://www.desertlighthouse.net/)

Why wash them in wine?

Why are the men not involved? or are we too squeemish? :)

When I saw into the pit at the monastery, I also got a bit of claustrophobia even though I was standing 9 feet above them in the open air. It was not something I was prepared to "see".

I do not want to side track this thread by this next comment, but here retirement homes are a precursor to the grave. We begin forgetting our elderly as we lock them up in these "communities" and go see them only during holidays, and as soon as we bury them, we forget them all together or perhaps on their birthday/deathday. Such is our "modern" society.

It would be unthinkable to dig them up, touch the bones, wash them, pray over them and stack them in a place of rememberance. This would mean we would have to face our own mortality and no one here wants to believe they will also one day be 6 feet under. We are after all our own god.

Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

Thank you Effie for this practical practise. I can assure you this would NEVER be done here. It would be unheard of and our governmrnt health services would have a fit if it were even attempted. If you will permit me a few questions out of curiosity (not morbidity I hope)...

Why sprinkle the bones with Koliva and wine before storage? Would this not encourage rodents?
How do the women get past the eewwww factor? Are the bones free of all decayed flesh or do they have to handle this and scrub it off? I have never seen anyone once they are buried so have no idea. We bury people in 24 carat gold hermetically sealed, silk lined, luxuriously padded beds of eternal blissfulness. And of course in whatever color you choose.

What do you bury in? I am thinking of ordering a simple pine box (http://www.desertlighthouse.net/)

Why wash them in wine?

Why are the men not involved? or are we too squeemish? :)

When I saw into the pit at the monastery, I also got a bit of claustrophobia even though I was standing 9 feet above them in the open air. It was not something I was prepared to "see".

I do not want to side track this thread by this next comment, but here retirement homes are a precursor to the grave. We begin forgetting our elderly as we lock them up in these "communities" and go see them only during holidays, and as soon as we bury them, we forget them all together or perhaps on their birthday/deathday. Such is our "modern" society.

It would be unthinkable to dig them up, touch the bones, wash them, pray over them and stack them in a place of rememberance. This would mean we would have to face our own mortality and no one here wants to believe they will also one day be 6 feet under. We are after all our own god.

Paul

Paul, I don't know the answers to all the questions you ask.

I will tell you what I do know.

Three years is long enough for the flesh to disappear. In the past there was a superstition that if there was any flesh after this period then the person had sins that had not been forgiven. This was an old wives tale, of course. My mother told me that when she was young and witnessed the disinterrment of a 3 month old baby, a little flesh was still clinging to its bones. One hysterical woman said that it's sins had not been forgiven it. The priest, a hugely popular man who did not mince his words, got angry and told the woman not to be so stupid. What sins did a young baby have?

The wine is to wash the bones with - it's a disinfectant. The wheat symbolizes eternal life. The wheat is not put in the boxes with the bones.

The type of coffin depends on what the family can afford. Luxurious coffins are not the norm here. However, when unmarried men and women die their coffin is always white and some are even dressed in wedding clothes - they are being married to Charos (death).

I don't know why men are not present at these ceremonies. I have seen immediate family male members present, but never any other men.

Putting your aged parents in retirement homes is something that is frowned upon here. They gave you life, they suffered through your various illnesses as you were growing up. If not for their care, you would not be alive today. Unfortunately, in larger cities, putting parents in retirement homes is becoming more popular every year. The saddest part of all this? Out of sight, out of mind. I don't know how many old people on TV I have heard say that their children have forgotten them.

Hygiene situation : I have not heard of anyone becoming ill because of these customs. There are taps all over the cemetary and washing your hands after leaving a gravesite, whether it is after a funeral or after the blessing of the bones ceremony is normal. Everyone washes their hands very thoroughly before going to the reception area for coffee and sweets. The one thing I never do is pick up a clod of earth and throw it on the grave after the funeral. I leave this part of the ceremony out.

It's strange Paul, but when first confronted with these customs I felt frightened. I no longer do. When the spirit leaves a body you know, absolutely, that the person you loved no longer exists, their body does not hold them. Respect is paid to the discarded body though with these various customs.

Effie

I should point out that the cemetary personnel actually dig up the graves (and the bones). They also wash the dirt off them. The women then wash them with wine and place them in the special basket.

[Herman Blaydoe]

I would suspect that the tradition of this being done by women is in memory of the myrrh-bearing women who went to Christ's tomb, there were no men there either (since they were all in hiding!)

[Irene]

This has been a very interesting lesson in yet another custom I had never heard of. On first reading it is something I thought oh now I could never bare to do that, touch bones etc. Then again you never know. Coming from Protestant background, where we as children were rarely even permitted to go to funerals and certainly I never saw an open coffin as they were always sealed, the thought of kissing the recently reposed would have been horrifying to me, I think. However my first introduction to an open coffin and to kissing the recently reposed was actually after the repose of an old nun at Kentlyn Monastery in NSW Australia. Strangely enough, without being forwarned of this custom/tradition, I was not horrified, I watched the congregation take turns one by one venerating the body and I did as well. No problems. Would I avoided this situation if this is what I was told would happen, I have no idea now. However, of course I have never had any problems venerating the earthly remains of family and friends since then.

[Effie Ganatsios]

This has been a very interesting lesson in yet another custom I had never heard of. On first reading it is something I thought oh now I could never bare to do that, touch bones etc. Then again you never know. Coming from Protestant background, where we as children were rarely even permitted to go to funerals and certainly I never saw an open coffin as they were always sealed, the thought of kissing the recently reposed would have been horrifying to me, I think. However my first introduction to an open coffin and to kissing the recently reposed was actually after the repose of an old nun at Kentlyn Monastery in NSW Australia. Strangely enough, without being forwarned of this custom/tradition, I was not horrified, I watched the congregation take turns one by one venerating the body and I did as well. No problems. Would I avoided this situation if this is what I was told would happen, I have no idea now. However, of course I have never had any problems venerating the earthly remains of family and friends since then.

Irene, I'm going to tell you something that might make you laugh - we can always do with a laugh.

I had never been to a funeral in Australia, and a little after I came here my husband's auntie died. I had absolutely no idea that the deceased are kept overnight in their house and transported to the church for the funeral service the next day. I didn't speak Greek very well then and didn't know the customs here so my husband would usually tell me what to do before any event. That day he told me that after entering the lounge I had to shake each person's hand and then sit down. He FORGOT to tell me that his auntie would be in her coffin in the middle of the room. I entered and didn't pay attention to what I thought was a huge floral arrangement on a low table. (each mourner comes with a bouquet of flowers which are then arranged in the coffin around the deceased). I sat down, and listened to the old women tell stories of how clean their wash used to be before washing machines were common and how the young women didn't know how to clean as they did. I know that this sounds unbelievable but this was what these ladies were talking about. My husband's auntie was quite old so there wasn't much crying. As I was sitting there, my eyes wandered over the "flower arrangement". Suddenly, I caught sight of a hand in the middle of the flowers. I looked a little further up and saw Theia Anna's face surrounded by carnations!!!! You can only imagine what a shock this was! God must have had pity on me and saved me from making a fool of myself by jumping up and running, screaming, from the room.

My first experience of a Greek funeral...................... and my first sight of a dead person.

Effie

p.s. I never actually touch the dead person when I lean down in church after the funeral ceremony to kiss them.
We kiss the icon in their hands and then their forehead, but few people actually touch their lips to the dead person's flesh.